Good video. It is food for thought, but I do have a few comments. 1. A Nitpick: At 1:54, the increase in volume for a large pipe grows exponentially, not because pi is involved in the equation, but because r squared is involved in the equation. 2. A dust collector like the ClearVue is designed to pull a large volume of air. Reduction of the pipe size not only reduces the volume of air but is bad for the machine. It is important to maintain the same volume. In my shop I use six-inch PVC to my drops and to my blast gates and only then reduce to at least two four-inch pipes. There is still enough volume to include a 2 inch pipe as well, but it remains to be seen whether the pressure would be adequate. 3. The point of dust collection is to remove the fine dust from the air ASAP. Whether or not a vac can do that depends on the vac's filter. I doubt that the vac pictured will filter out the fine dust and one that would (HEPA), would probably clog. 4. In woodturning, we face two challenges. Woodchips which are heavy enough to fall to the floor and fine dust (especially when sanding). I have a large collector for fine dust and a floor sweep for the larger shavings. I also wear a mask and have filtration unit over my lathe. Dust in the lungs is no joke.

The inconvenient truth is that you simply can't get good dust collection with small ports. Just because a shop-vac performs better with a small port than a big dust collector does with the same small port, doesn't mean either one is adequate. The acid test is to monitor air quality during tool and after tool use. That's the only thing that will tell you if your dust collection is working.

This video deserves way more views than it has. Great job explains this in simple terms. A good straightforward answer on static pressure and flow is something that is missing in almost all videos and articles on dust collection.

I literally spent days trying to understand the ins and outs of dust collection in order to make an informed decision on what to do in my shop. I wish I would have found this video in the beginning! This is hands down the best video on this topic out there! Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge and the results of your measurements!

Wow, am I glad I watched this video ! My shop is small and all of my tools have 2 inch dust ports and there is no reason for me to spend big bucks on a system that would not have been appropriate for the tools I use. Really great information and very helpful. I use a Dewalt stealth sonic vacuum and it seems to work pretty well on the tools in my shop, so I'm glad I didn't just waste money on a system only to find out it would not have been of much benefit. I guess that's why I'm a subscriber ! Cheers from Utah. Two thumbs up on this video !

Anecdotally I started in a garage shop probably very comparable to most your viewers. When I upgraded my lunchbox planer, 15 amp / 110 table saw and my 6” jointer from a shop vac to a 2hp dust collector, my dust collection and tool performance both increased tremendously (particularly the planer). I would highly recommend a dust collector as an initial shop purchase. I also recommend getting away from a shop vac and getting a dust extractor for your sanders in short order. Like before you buy a billion clamps or commercial quality tools.

I just rearranged my shop, and was trying to decide on ports /gates along the 6" pipe for the smaller ported tools. Your timing is impeccable! Love my 6hp Ridgid; now I need to design an easy to swap header. Great vids, keep them coming.

pi is constant, it's the radius squared part responsible for the quick area growth of larger circles. 2 cool things: math and youcanmakethistoo (:

Great study, some really valuable information here to newer woodworkers and experienced alike. One small correction - 180% "more" airflow would equate to 280% of the airflow of whatever you are comparing to, so what you actually meant was 80% "more" flow, or 180% of the same flow.

The whole point of the Pentz designed system is to accomplish the minimum 1000cfm at the tool necessary to insure that the finest microscopic dust that you cannot see is captured at the tool before it can escape into the air you are breathing. NONE of these smaller alternatives described here can do that. This entire discussion about these sub 5 hp collectors can best be described as pertaining to wood chip collection because that is what these smaller systems can accomplish. You are still breathing the fine, cancer causing wood dust that your smaller tools create even though these smaller collectors appear to the naked eye to be doing a good job for you. The single most important take away from Bill Pentz' work is "1000 cfm at the tool". That large 5hp, 16 inch impeller ClearVue system typically yields >1500cfm at the tool to a 6 inch port or to 2 four inch ports simultaneously.

Very useful and timely! Been wondering just what you covered and the information is very helpful! Thank you!

"IMPRESSIVE!" Made me a follower. Studied what was available when I built my dust collection system many years ago. Even got my own "Annie". There is another factor involved when not making money with my shop... Cost of operation. Small tools take less watts of power and unless I'm running a big machine> Smaller is better. Had an "Oh Dah" moment when selling my 110 delta dust collector. Realized cleaning the upper bags is equally important to air flow. Looking forward to more of your "Nerdy" Wisdom!"

Really interesting data you've collected here. It's given me a lot to think about. Maybe I'll just hang onto my shop vac a bit longer until I start up-sizing my tools. Thanks for sharing!

One helpful test would be to have the airflow meter some distance away from the inlet port. Where I first really noticed the need for a HVLP dust collector was trying to do dust collection on my lathe. Shopvacs are basically useless for this because you're trying to pull flying chips out of the air with a big hood. True dust collectors move so much air they can pull chips out of the air some distance from the inlet.

Thanks a lot. You answered all my questions on choosing the right dust collection system for my shop, and saved me a lot of money because now I know that I have the right system for me, and I don´t have to buy a new one.

Great video. At first didn’t like your style but I just listened and I think you explained this subject better than anyone else. Thank you.

Thank you for a very practical test of the options. As a DIY/Hobby shop, all of my tools are 2 1/2" or smaller, except for the thickness planer. I was seriously considering the Dustright, but I am glad I held off. I may just replace my 23 year old Crafstman shop vac with something a little less "screamy".

Awesome video! I'm working on a dust collection video myself and I am just going to tell people to watch yours for all the science, lol. Thanks!

I liked the video. In short and to summarize the basics here without the need of math, special gadgets etc. Our tools for a "modest" shop come with, pre-installed dust collection ports. Now, why is that? Hmmm. My Dewalt tablesaw for example, comes with a 2.25" port. Why? Why not a big ol 4" or 6" port? Because it is sized for EXACTLY what is required. My Dewalt chop saw and benchtop bandsaw. They come with smaller ports. Why? Hmmm. My Dewalt benchtop planer. Again, comes with a standard 4" port....Well, why is that? Why is the planer larger than the tablesaw etc? Well. What is it that these individual tools are doing? What type of "dust" is being created? Is it even "dust" or is it actually "chips"? Hmmm. So, the question isn't really about air volume, pressure etc etc etc. It's about the TYPE of debris being removed. Period. End of story. My bandsaw isn't removing "chip", I'm cutting a fine line, therefore the debris is "dust". Tablesaw = Dust (aside from the occasional "chip". Miter saw = Dust. Planer = CHIPS. So, large dust vacuums should actually be renamed to "chip" vacuums cause THAT is what they are geared for and purpose. Absolutely, they suck up "dust" as well....but that isn't their actual intent. So...in short. Small port...use a Shop Vac. Large port, use a "chip" vac. Simple. Easy. No math required and no "Annie" required.

Great video. Don’t have a collector yet but building a shop in a few months. Glad I saw this. Thx

I think I've learned more from this dust video than any other

I have the same baby bandsaw and Rockler dust collector. I'm definitely using the shop vac for that guy now and saving the 750 for the bigger tools. Thanks Caleb!

Excellent video and essentially what I've concluded after a year of research! You indicate that Onieda is the only option in high pressure low volume extractors. While I'd love to have a Supercell, Record Power offers the Camvac which is another high pressure/low volume type of collector. They appear to be not as good at final filtration vs. the Oneida Supercells, but that can be upgraded and they are far lower cost than the Supercell.

Fantastic testing, Caleb! Thanks a bunch! 😃 I was using a small vacuum cleaner as shop vac, but it's 110v and most outlets are 220v here, so... 😬 Either way, now I've got a much bigger one and a good plastic gallon for the cyclone... (I was using plastic buckets, but their cover used to break in one week!) So I think it's going to work much better now. 😬 Anyway, stay safe there with your family! 🖖😊

The Camvac high pressure system is one of my favorite buys. Never thought I’d say that about anything relating to dust collection. Handles large and small hoses, large and small machines. Very versatile, I’ll never go back to a low pressure system. It requires 220v but worth it if you can’t swing it

Thank you so much for getting into the concepts, factors & math behind successful airflow for a given situation (ie volume X partical). I learned more from your video than the last 30 I've watched. Thank you. I relate to the way you think. -mc

Recently upgraded from a job site table saw to a Sawstop PCS 1.75 and it never dawned on me the Ridgid + dust separator I use wouldn't do anything for dust collection on the new Sawstop. I found out the hard way I ended up purchasing a jet 1hp unit with the canister like your rockler. Also got the dust collection blade guard , works amazing now after another chunk of change.

Finally. A woodworking video that doesn’t reject the use of math and data, talk down to the viewer, or where the maker doesn’t try to be self-deprecating with a title like “No Math Was Used to Make This Table” (yes, that’s a video posted in the last couple days by a well-known content creator).

One of the best videos I've seen in a while! Thanks!

Brilliant, thanks a lot for the research and demo👌

Caughted that SNL Justin&Andy ref at 09:50, just a silly smile on my end.

Really like the video. One question though, wouldn't the length of the pipe also have something to do with the cfm? From the Rockler you attached the smaller hose to the larger hose, so it had a longer distance to suck through. Where when you hooked it up to the shop vac, it was just the shorter hose.

Excellent information! I will stay with my shop vac and dust separater.

bravo! argomento sempre interessante e il tuo approfondimento è stato chiaro e per niente dispersivo come altri che ho visto sull'argomento!

great job on the video man!

Good overview of the challenges of piping a system, large or small. What it comes down to me is... is the airflow good enough at the end device, even with the hose reduction restrictions placed upon it. I have a 1250 CFM system with 6" main run to shop central location, then split to two 4" runs to my machines (each 4" run has a couple blast gates and y-connectors used to select the desired device). All of that being hard pipe and only the last ~4' being flex. Only my router table has a further reduction to two 2.5" hoses (fence and dust box via a y-splitter). It may not be optimal and greatly reduced from the maximum the collector produces, but does the job and pulls enough air to keep up with what I cut. I plan to still purchase a portable extractor (like a Festool) for hand sanding and routing... they need the extra high volume that my main collector just can't provide when reduced via longer/smaller hose connections.

Is a shop-vac going to be powerful enough to set up in a central/permanent location and run thin pipes around to the machines, or is the length of hose pretty limited?

Thanks for a great video 🙂

exactly what is was looking for. Thanks!!!

Into the equation of dust collectors. Atmosperic pressure is 14.7 PSI. 1 BAR. The max vacuum you can pull is 0 PSi. IE zero Bar. This is physics & there is no machine that can pull more suction/vacuum than Zero .. Otherwise I guess you get a black hole. So the max pressure you can get at the end of your hose is 14.7 PSI Atmospheric, which is the air getting pushed down your hose to refill the vacuum created by your dust collector. BUT. To achieve this 14.7 PSI you would have to pull a complete 0 PSI Vacuum. Note all our gauges are set to read 0 at 14.7 PSI our atmospheric pressure. My thought is if you want meaningful data on atmospheric pressure/flow going down your hose, we should be taking vacuum readings in the plenum chamber of the vacuum machine. I have a sneaky feeling this is why the camvac works well.

Hey Caleb, fantastic video! Would you happen to have your results in spreadsheet form to help my brain process all this data? Love your experiments and conclusions, well done.

Thermal Engineer here (that studies airflow for a living)... Good video. Measurement tools are always the best way to find out what works best for you. Write down the numbers and reference them when you have an issue in the future. It will help you find a clog in your hose (sticks) and leaks. I can add more "color" to your conversation about getting both pressure and volume. Impellers are designed for one or the other so if you only have a one impeller system, you have to pick. The solution is to put two impellers in series or parallel. Two in parallel will increase volume but not pressure where as 2 in series will improve pressure, not volume. You can actually do this on your own by hooking two dust collectors in series or two shopvacs in parallel. It isn't going to work as well as the bigger pricier units that you named that have multiple fans but you can play with it and sometimes get something that works better for your setup. All shopvacs and dust collectors are general purpose with a "one size fits all" approach. That is the best you can do when buying off-the-shelf products. Although somewhat red-neck, adding multiple systems together can shock you on the performance. On a complete side note (and me just being a jerk)... your deltas were incorrectly stated (differences between the two.) You made statements like "180% improvement" but the first 100% you don't count when comparing. It was "80% improvement". 🙂

Great video! So basically, if you are a small shop using smaller tools with ~2" openings, shop vac will outperform bigger dust collectors. And the inverse is true, ie, once you graduate to bigger 4" equipment, it's time to upgrade to bigger 4" dust collectors as well. Good to know I can just save my money for now, and what I currently have is about the best I can expect at this point.

The proof is in the pudding. None of this "I feel like..." stuff. well done, Caleb. Interesting results, too. It demonstrated your facts perfectly. I have the same Ridgid vacuum that I use with a Dustopper. When I bought my "annie", I measured 188 cfm at the inlet on the vacuum. With the Dustopper and the stock hose, I got about 80 cfm at the end of the hose. Not adequate for my Ridgid R4512 table saw with the cabinet and 4" outlet. I bought the Dust Right 750 a couple of years ago (when it was $300 cheaper) and I get the same numbers you got, i.e. 500 cfm at the inlet on the dust collector and => 400 cfm at the end of the hose. Works much better. It really works great on my router table which has a dust collection port on the fence and a dust box underneath. Routers can be a real mess but I now make more mess cutting a dowel with a flush cut saw.

Thanks for another great video! You referred me to this one, from your older dust collection video, but this was the first I’d seen of yours! With a Dust Deputy 2.5 going into a 6HP shop vac and bag, do you think it would make sense to put a HEPA filter in the shop vac? Do they restrict CFM? What about just venting the shop vac to the outside? Thanks!

Very interesting, I gotta go do some tests (and maybe make a 3d printed in line holder for my Annie !)

I had the "better" one I bought from Harbor Freight a couple years back but it "sucked" but didn't... My RIGID vac like you feature is what works great for my shop.

*Great video*! Thank you so much. As an propulsion systems engineer who designs jet engines, I deal with these kind of numbers everyday. So you would think that I would just know intuitively which is the right type of dust collection for the shop I am going to build when I retire later this year, but you would be wrong. Well, I guess I did know somethings, like all the basic physics of the impact of reduced diameter, higher wall friction, bends and turns, and longer runs have on total air flow (because after 40 years designing jet and rocket engines my bosses have yet to come to me and ask if perhaps I wouldn't be happier in a job I was actually good at). amatuer-ish So _now_ my plan, thanks to this video, is to go with a higher quality shop vac, like the new very quiet DeWalt StealthSonic, for long term dust collection. And in the future if I want to upgrade, it would just be to get a second shop vac/dust separator and build it into the workbench between the router table and miter saw so I didn't have to fuss with hooking up the portable one to the dust port in the front of the workbench that connects to the hoses and pipes built in to the workbench going to those two tools.

Man I love pie, marionberry and pumpkin are my favorite. Now I want a piece, thanks a lot man.

I'm looking into a dust collection system. I have a rigid vac. Looking into the harbor freight collector. I'm a visual learner, so if you had flow charts next to the unit you were talking about would help me.

Only issue with the supercell is the cost. I mean I guess if you are limited on space and need best of both worlds you could use it but honestly I think best bang for the buck is a 12 gallon shop vac system with cyclone separator for smaller tools and the harbor freight 2hp 70 gallon system for larger 4 to 5" connections.

Great video with some good numbers! I'd be interested to know what the numbers would be for adapting down from the larger diameter to the smaller diameter at the tool, just a step down from the big hose to the tool, no length of smaller hose.

As always, good stuff.

Love the chaotic energy in your video 🤣🤣🤣

Another difference I've discovered is in the duty cycle. For example, running a 12 hour CNC carve might be more suitable for proper dust collectors. I don't believe my shop-vac will last long if I regularly ask it to run for such long sessions.

So my past several days of research was just blown up by this video 😂. All of my tools have 2.5” ports and I’ve tried my Ridgid shop vac with HEPA filter and bag + dust stopper pro and it just seems like it’s not sufficient for things like my table saw. My assumption is the dust stopper is drastically reducing cfm here (I’m looking into getting an “Annie” to test the differences with and without the HEPA bag, dust stopper etc). The other thing I’ve been trying to accomplish is a solution for having to constantly move the shop vac hose from tool to tool when working on projects - so I’ve designed a small 2.5” ducting run around my mobile 4’x4’ work table with blast gates so I can hook up multiple tools at a time and just open the blast gates one at a time. I was thinking that even with a cfm loss, starting out with a harbor freight 2hp collector with cyclone dust separator would be good initial starting point to hook my work table up to. Do you think a shop vac still might be the better solution here? Thanks for the super informative video!

Awesome video !😊

The real question for me is what to use on my 2.5 inch collection port on my CNC. I might be able to upgrade it to larger port later but for now the dust collector is so quiet compared to the shop vac.

Great info, thx

I’m stuck between the shop vac and dust right collector. Most of my tools are 2.5 inch port compact tools in a garage workshop. I’m about to buy a drum sander. It looks like I may have to run two systems.

I moved my woodshop to the middle of my Backyard. No Hoses, No pumps, No noise. I Just let nature reclaim back its dust. It’s a beautiful sight to witness.

Have you ever seen or tested the cam vac systems with dual or triple motors?

So I’m trying to decide between a shop vac/separator vs a dust extractor. The extractors seem great for sanders but can I get the same results with a shop vac setup? 🤔

Thanks for the vid! To be completely accurate, get/make an adaptor for Annie that matches her input diameter. In other words, on the hoses that are smaller than her opening, you need to neck back up to get accurate readings. If you don't, there is a mechanical loss due to pulling air across only a part of Annies blades. Me thinks 🤔

I get that the dust collector doesn’t pull as much air when restricted down, but what if you had a Y section and hooked up two 1 3/4”. Would you maintain the 4% from both outlets at the same time? My issue is I’m running many 1 3/4” tools simultaneously and wondering the best way to extract dust without having a shop vac on each individual one. Many thanks

All going well I should be setting up my onefinity 4x4 this week, and I have sort of dived into dust collection stuff before but i'm not even sure how much money I can put in yet cause I won't know until I sort import costs... This makes me think my henry for now is going to be good enough though, I was kinda worried I wouldn't have enough suction until I had the smallest decent dust collector I could stretch to which is the axeminster £800 model with the tapered cyclone tube thingy I can't remember the name off. The oneida basic is like 2k? usd, so after currency to uk sterling + import rip offs thats like 4k gbp... thats a long long way away for me.

step 1, cut a hole in the box...ha, high five my man✋...nice insertion of lols into an excellently informative vid.

Snl skit about a hole in a box lol. 😂 great info enjoyed the video!!

I've had this discussion with multiple people over the years and no one seems to believe me. Using LAARGE dust collection systems with small machines is NOT a good idea.... or at least with machines that have small ports. As an example, my old Bosch PTS 10 table saw has only 35 mm ports and my two bag 4 HP dust collector with 160 mm hoses is practically useless for this. When I scale down the hoses to fit the 35 mm ports... practically ALL suction is gone! Attaching a shop vac.... it works like a charm.

Record Power Camvac dual and triple motors do the same. They cover smaller machines and larger machines with 4” ports. The power and extraction is superb for both types of tools and machines and at a reasonable price. Not sure however if available in the US yet? As the product is manufactured in the UK. But big in Europe.

Interesting video. I bought a few reducing fittings to use my dust collector on a small bandsaw and 2 sanders. Pretty sure i wasted my money. Ibwish rockler didnt even sell those adaptors for dustrite system.

Thanks for the video. I have a question. I have 3 shop vacs, different sizes and ages. I don't have a fancy tester. Is there a way to tell which vac is going to work the best in my shop without a tester? Do I just go by the horsepower? Gallon size?

That rotating vein anemometer should not be used with small diameter ducts. Minimum would be 6". the diameter of the vein area is much smaller and effectively reduces the measured area. Use a thermal anemometer.

This is some really good info. I have been saving to get the Dust Right 1250, but I was also wondering if I should save even more and get one of the Oneida collectors which would require a 220 outlet, and the Rockler is only 110. Lots to think about now

So I want to connect my 4" port from my lunchbox planer to my 2 1/2" shopvac with a secondary collector in between? What are some thoughts on this setup?

You kept my attention at PIE - cherry I hope - LOL, my bad you meant Pi - mathematical equations. Informative - thanks Caleb. Stay safe.

Additionally, the camvac is equivalent to a Oneida supercell (with accessory hepa filters)

Thanks for the video Caleb! Very informative I think your math is off though: 5551 is 80% more than 3130 not 180% more. You later correctly say that it's almost 2x. 180% more would be almost 3x

It’s a bit unfair to add the long shop vac hose to the end of the long 4” flex hose. You’d get a more comparable result placing a 2-½” reducing adapter at the end of the 4” flex hose.

Thank you although, with my size shop I already came to the conclusion of staying with my shop vac

Intro is lovely 😂

Where did you get that apron?

Decibel measurements would be nice as well.

The benefit of tickler’s hose is when it’s collapsed, it compresses a lot to become a smoother hose.

You can almost imagine the solution.... would you _ever_ attach a huge dust collection hose to your disc sander? You all know how the suction is at the end of the small diameter hose from the shop vac when you let it suck at you hand... it's the vacuum it creates that makes it great for small machines. That vacuum becomes completely useless if you use it for large machines, like planers or drum sanders... and vice versa.

Well now I have to go rearrange my dust collection system because everything I thought I was doing right was actually wrong.😂 thanks for the very educational video and the facts don’t lie! Great job and you got a new subscriber out of me

It’s a natural progression at least it was for me. You start with a shop vac $ then if you stick with it you end up getting an extractor$$$ then you finally go for the dust collector $$$$$

so then can't you just widen the intake on the shop vac to 4"? and that'll roughly double the cfm in theory?

Welp, looks like I will just stick with the Rigid vac until I can afford an Oneida. Thanks!

the big problem I have with those Oneida Super Cell and Turbo Super Cell is their life span. Oneida themselves states an approximate 1200 hour life span on the motors as they arent induction motors but are just your run of the mill universal motors. They heat up, are very loud and will likely need to be replaced in 5 to 10 years depending on use. (think shop vac on steroids) I considered and quickly dismissed them for this reason despite their wonderful reviews. give it time and you will start to see lots of super cell motors failing. Thats why I went with the old reliable Clear Vue like yourself. All my ports are 4" or larger so this fits my bill

A lot of meaningless arithmetic. Finally, at 10:30 he mentioned THE key parameter for pneumatic conveying: velocity at the pickup point. CFM is only important for 2 reasons: 1) you have to have enough air moving to furnish the energy needed to accelerate and convey the material, 2) on some machines you need enough volume to sweep the open area with enough face velocity to cause the material to be captured in the air flow. These systems are never anywhere near the carrying capacity of the air flow even on something like a large planer or jointer so worrying about pressure drop isn't necessary. I very successfully control dust nearly 100% on my 14" bandsaw with a 4" connection to the cabinet with a 2 1/2" line tee'd off the 4" run to a point right under the table. Pickup velocity for sawdust and small wood chips is less than 2500 feet per minute. Since these are vacuum systems, the lowest velocity is at the end of the hose; velo increases because the air is expanding as it gets to the motive device due to the pressure decreasing. So, in a 1 3/4" diameter hose, you only need 42 cfm to achieve pickup. 2 1/4: 69 cfm, 4": 218cfm and 6" 490 cfm. Even the cheapest dust collectors (I have one) move over 400 cfm at 4-5 in W.C. My bigger Delta does ~700@ 6.5" W.C. At 3000 ft/min the pressure drop per hundred feet of 4" corrugated hose is a bit over an inch if the hose is not kinked. So stressing out over duct/hose lengths, elbows, etc is useless. That is until you need a lot of volume to capture dust off of a machine that flings the dust everywhere such as a miter saw. There are a million videos on people trying to tame a miter saw. Also, almost no dust control is achieved on above the table on a table saw. The blade is moving too fast for all of the material to get out of the gullets of aggressive blades. Even overarm collectors are only a little bit effective.

Some of Oneida's larger systems have intelligence to better deal with smaller ports and situations like CNC machines. This is in addition to the SuperCell.

I'd be interesting to see what happens when you run a 4" line to the band saw with a neck down adapter right at the machine.

The first KZfaq woodworker, whose second job is being a physicist at MIT.

Loved this video but please get a tripod, the wobble is making my vertigo nuts lol😅

"Step 1 cut a hole in a box" I see what you did there.

ProTip: there's nothing stopping you from hooking up two shopvacs behind a dust separator for more power.

Sorry I missed most of this. Fell asleep. I'm not sure why you thought it was a college course.

Now the last test begs the question… how would 2 inexpensive shop-vacs perform in parallel? Still a small fraction of the price, with the minor inconvenience of potentially finding an extra circuit to run them.

nice!