What Does The Book of Mormon Say About Grace? - Delicious Doctrine

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The Stick of Joseph

The Stick of Joseph

Күн бұрын

In this episode of Delicious Doctrine, Hayden and Jackson discuss the often controversial doctrine of grace. They dive into both the Bible and The Book of Mormon to get a clearer understanding of what Nephi meant when he said, "We are saved by grace after all we can do."
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#grace #graceofjesus #graceofgod #bible #romans #calvanist #bookofmormon #mormon #thechurchofjesuschristoflatterdaysaints #lds #scriptures #bookofmormonevidences #bookofmormonarchaeology #archaeology #stickofjoseph #thestickofjoseph #jesus #christ #jesuschrist #lehi #nephi #sariah #laman #lemuel #josephsmith

Пікірлер: 279
@Killthesefears
@Killthesefears Жыл бұрын
I think it is such an important distinction to make sure that people know that when it says, after all we can do that that doesn’t mean that we can do anything to reconcile ourselves to God besides repenting. It’s not works based and there’s nothing that we can do to achieve more of God’s mercy and grace. However, when we live more righteous lives, we can enjoy the blessings that he gives us.
@davidjanbaz7728
@davidjanbaz7728 Жыл бұрын
Your still earning your celestial kingdom place by all your temple ordinances. Those aren't in the Bible as your temple is based on Freemasonry not Christianity or Judaism.
@dcarts5616
@dcarts5616 Жыл бұрын
@@davidjanbaz7728wrong. 😊
@Killthesefears
@Killthesefears Жыл бұрын
@@davidjanbaz7728 we do what God has instructed us to do.
@johnrowley310
@johnrowley310 Жыл бұрын
@@Killthesefears What the brethren want you to do.
@joeshriver778
@joeshriver778 Жыл бұрын
@@johnrowley310 whatever you want to believe. We know it is a command from God to do what we do, if you don’t want to believe, so what.
@paulblack1799
@paulblack1799 Жыл бұрын
Of course our Lord expects work from LDS folk 'cuz he knows he can trust us to go where he wants us to go, do what he wants us to do, be what he wants us to be.😊 He's even anxious to let us join in his work and glory. I wouldn't have it any other way. It just adds more depth to our relationship.❤
@themanflake
@themanflake Жыл бұрын
Notice that it does not say because of all you can do. Grace is there before all you can do, grace is there while you’re doing all you can do and yes grace is there after all you can do as well.
@joeshriver778
@joeshriver778 Жыл бұрын
Correct, but if we do not do “works, then we are condemned: Luke 10:29-37; Matt 25:15-45; Rev 2:5, 23, 26; Rev 20: 12-13 We still have to do the works, we still have to do Gods will or we will be condemned. We cannot just say “I believe in Christ, and He is my savior “ and do nothing. That is what is meant by “after all we can do”.
@theodorebe
@theodorebe Жыл бұрын
From official mormon teaching, “Divine grace is needed by every soul in consequence of the fall of Adam and also because of man’s weaknesses and shortcomings. *However, grace cannot suffice without total effort on the part of the recipient. Hence the explanation, ‘It is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do’* (2 Nephi 25:23)…but the Bible responds, “then grace is no longer grace” (Romans‬ ‭11‬:‭6‬).
@themanflake
@themanflake Жыл бұрын
@@theodorebe this is false, I would know. *Official Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teachings is probably what you meant.
@robertofunk673
@robertofunk673 11 ай бұрын
No no that reasoning is called double think...read John19;30,Jesus cried it is finished...what was? His AT..ONEMENT,COLOSSIANS2:14/EPHESIANS2:14-16😊
@theodorebe
@theodorebe 11 ай бұрын
@@themanflake if your knowledge is so authoritative, would you like to publicly discuss this?
@helgemrklid2229
@helgemrklid2229 11 ай бұрын
"After all that we could do! simply means despite or in spite of what we do, we are still saved by grace.
@DaisyMay222
@DaisyMay222 Жыл бұрын
Great job guys! By the way, I am an old lady and it’s a comfort to see you young guys being so firm in your faith! Thanks for sharing! I lost my daughter to the dark side, but I have faith that she’ll be back… grandkids too 🤞🏻🙏🏻. This particular topic has given me a lot of comfort regarding her. Grace!
@ilmari7568
@ilmari7568 Жыл бұрын
What do you mean: You lost your daughter to the dark side? Did she convert from the Mormonism to the Christianity?
@pyrowolfcb4086
@pyrowolfcb4086 Жыл бұрын
@@ilmari7568 Mormons are Christians... No matter how much pastors stamp their feet in and tantrum about us, it doesn't change the fact that we are Christians.
@DaisyMay222
@DaisyMay222 11 ай бұрын
@@ilmari7568 Romans 14:10 10 ​But why dost thou ​​​judge​ thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the ​​​judgment​ seat of Christ.
@StompMom5
@StompMom5 Жыл бұрын
New Sub here... Awesome channel!! I'm always told faith is not required in religion we just have to know of Christ. The lady with the issue of blood had to touch Christ robe to be healed thus having to DO something. Then the staff of Moses and all people had to DO was Look and be healed. Every aspect of our lives require we DO something even if that something is nothing thus we are still choosing Not to do something. Looking forward to more videos🔥💥
@thestickofjoseph
@thestickofjoseph Жыл бұрын
Welcome! 🙏🏼
@Called-to-Live
@Called-to-Live Жыл бұрын
Amazing! It's a relationship God wants with us, and that is only accomplished when it's a two way situation. A few doctrines that are made clear by looking through both the lenses of the Bible and BofM is -Infant baptism, -priesthood -authority regarding baptism, -faith in regards to a progression (you hint at here but could be discussed on its own). Keep it up my brothers!
@aaronrich6925
@aaronrich6925 5 ай бұрын
You guys rock. Keep up the good work. I'm so thankful for the clarity of the Book of Mormon. The Bible and the Book of Mormon are best friends
@danite620
@danite620 Жыл бұрын
I really love this video and channel .
@worldkeyvideo9080
@worldkeyvideo9080 Жыл бұрын
Loved the video! I am really excited about this channel and it's direction.
@elizabethbaker2426
@elizabethbaker2426 Жыл бұрын
I loved this video! One way I like think of this concept is that the Grace of Christ (His Atonement) is what gives me the power to do the works which is required of me in this life (repentance and staying on the covenant path). Because of grace, I can have the faith to do what the Lord requires of me for salvation - Without His grace our works would be dead. I hope that makes sense.
@ScrivenArt
@ScrivenArt Жыл бұрын
“After all we can do…” always felt like my portion of gratitude that will never be enough for all that was done for me. That understanding came from receiving so many good gifts and so much support from my parents and I could never adequately pay them back and my thanks seems so minuscule. After all I can do - it never comes close to being enough. My works are not for “earning” my way, they are my expression of gratitude, or my acceptance of grace. It’s amazing how much commentary exists for one single word.
@jabulani22shepo61
@jabulani22shepo61 Жыл бұрын
Stop beating yourself up bruh. God didn't tell you to do enough he just want you to live the gospel and if you fall short repent. Grace alone leaves out accountability in individuals to do whatever which is what Satan wants.
@outof_obscurity
@outof_obscurity Жыл бұрын
Indeed. If we rewrote what nephi said it would say "we're saved by grace after our repentance."
@joeshriver778
@joeshriver778 Жыл бұрын
@@outof_obscurity no, just repentance is not enough. Christ preached doing. It is not doing to be saved, but because we love Him. There are several scriptures in the Bible that talk about that if we do not do, we swill be thrust into outer darkness.
@theodorebe
@theodorebe Жыл бұрын
@@outof_obscurity From official mormon teaching, “Divine grace is needed by every soul in consequence of the fall of Adam and also because of man’s weaknesses and shortcomings. *However, grace cannot suffice without total effort on the part of the recipient. Hence the explanation, ‘It is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do’* (2 Nephi 25:23)…but the Bible responds, “then grace is no longer grace” (Romans‬ ‭11‬:‭6‬).
@outof_obscurity
@outof_obscurity Жыл бұрын
@@theodorebe idk how that contradicts what I said. What is repentance? It's to confess and FORSAKE your sins. Repent in Greek is metanoeo which means to change your heart mind and soul. So how do you change breaking the Sabbath? By keeping the Sabbath. You're no longer keeping the law under conditions of the law, you're keeping it under conditions of repentance. Guess what? That's the same thing. You guys refer to it as sanctification. That's the same thing. There's literally no difference with what you believe and us when it comes to works.
@Steelblaidd
@Steelblaidd Жыл бұрын
There is a really good book I ran across recently that digs into the meaning of the Greek word translated as faith in English. The author, Matthew Bates, makes the case that the closest modern English equivalent to the full range of the Greek is 'allegence' or 'loyalty'. Book- Salvation by Allegence Alone
@Icanonlyimagn7891
@Icanonlyimagn7891 Жыл бұрын
Great video! ☀️💕
@davidp5114
@davidp5114 Жыл бұрын
Great work, guys!
@karolynwrightgainesmusic
@karolynwrightgainesmusic Жыл бұрын
Excellent video guys. Great job !
@thehistoadian
@thehistoadian Жыл бұрын
Awesome video! Noticed from the wedding photo the Marine uniform, thank you for your service!
@HeidiTotten
@HeidiTotten 7 ай бұрын
Thank you for making this!
@kathyskidmore6887
@kathyskidmore6887 Жыл бұрын
Love the clarification along with the scriptures to back it up!
@chrishumphries7489
@chrishumphries7489 Жыл бұрын
Just because a gift is freely given, that does not mean it can be effortlessly or instantaneously received. God loves effort, and He will not burden anyone with a gift they don’t actually want.
@johnrowley310
@johnrowley310 Жыл бұрын
I want it and I want it now...
@chrishumphries7489
@chrishumphries7489 Жыл бұрын
@@johnrowley310 That’s what everyone says when they want a puppy. Then they realize you have to spend quailing time with it, feed it, wash it, take it on walks/exercise, find someone to take care of it when you go on trips, clean up the daily doo doo or clean vomit when it gets sick. Some people are truly ready and willing, and others realize that they really didn’t care and would rather not be burdened by it.
@Dukhyun
@Dukhyun 9 ай бұрын
I love the way you present. Graphics are amazing as well.
@Dandeeman26
@Dandeeman26 Жыл бұрын
Great explanation!
@soumatiseepaul337
@soumatiseepaul337 Жыл бұрын
I just love your explanation of " after all ye can do' i thought the same
@cmac956
@cmac956 Жыл бұрын
Hi , I like the way you guys use the Bible and the book of Morman , when I was active, at that time it was'nt being done as much in the meetings . thank you .
@ryanlatimer7832
@ryanlatimer7832 Жыл бұрын
Well done brotheren
@thestickofjoseph
@thestickofjoseph Жыл бұрын
Thank you good, sir.
@letusreasontogether1168
@letusreasontogether1168 10 ай бұрын
If we desire to live with God, then we must learn to live like God. We must make an honest effort to obey the command of Jesus to "Be ye therefore perfect". When we ultimately fall short of perfection, He will make up the difference and we are eternally indebted to Him. Faith motivates us to do good and doing good increases our faith.
@Steve-Utah
@Steve-Utah Жыл бұрын
Great video
@michaelmichaelc1748
@michaelmichaelc1748 Жыл бұрын
We believe that all mankind can be saved by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
@germanslice
@germanslice Жыл бұрын
That is correct because Revelations Teaches that the saints must overcome all things the same as Christ also overcame all things. Rev 3:21 You read in Revelations many times "He who overcometh"
@johnrowley310
@johnrowley310 Жыл бұрын
@@germanslice Sort of like when Joseph Smith declared that he did greater works than Jesus.
@germanslice
@germanslice Жыл бұрын
@@johnrowley310 Well he did do the Father's work of the restoration.
@paulblack1799
@paulblack1799 Жыл бұрын
Michael... and the next article of faith tells us what those laws and ordinances are. Faith, repentance, baptism and receiving the Holy Ghost.
@germanslice
@germanslice Жыл бұрын
@@paulblack1799 Receiving the Holy Ghost is an ordinance given by the laying of hands, In Book of Acts Simon saw how the Holy Ghost was given.
@rickyde0255
@rickyde0255 Жыл бұрын
Well done.
@janeenburke
@janeenburke Жыл бұрын
So so so good!! Also, don’t forget baptism! That’s something we CAN do and must do. Jesus said we must be baptized and be born again to enter into His kingdom. In other words, faith, repentance, baptism and born again just means becoming a new person through and with Christ, putting off the natural man. Those are all the things we CAN do, but wouldn’t even be possible without Christ and His atonement.
@thestickofjoseph
@thestickofjoseph Жыл бұрын
Watch our latest video!!
@Eagle_Powers
@Eagle_Powers Жыл бұрын
Where in the Bible does Jesus say you must be baptized?
@ChapinaUSA
@ChapinaUSA 9 ай бұрын
Yep. That verse is all about exercising faith in Christ unto repentance. That leads to baptism. Baptism leads to the reception of the Holy Ghost. The reception of the Holy Ghost helps us endure to the end. Partaking of the sacrament weekly is a huge help along the way.
@JQMurrell
@JQMurrell 3 ай бұрын
I like that idea you threw out there, that the works we do in Christ, are actually our repentance in action! Because when we do things differently, we are acting differently and therefore we are acting more christ-like, and our works become quite different than our old works of our human ways. So, the concept of works and doing the work of Christ in the will of God upon the world, is really us living in the act of constant repentance of old ways! Or living in repentance of the ways of the world!
@justinpeterson8754
@justinpeterson8754 Жыл бұрын
Lately I’ve been thinking that “works” = “ordinances”
@joeshriver778
@joeshriver778 Жыл бұрын
Not just ordinances. Ministering, sharing our talents, and other stuff I can’t think of. Follow Christs example and look up all the examples of works/doing.
@kobidoggy7575
@kobidoggy7575 Жыл бұрын
That was so good....We should not followed the apostle Paul we should followed Jesus Christ because he is the end of our faith and the Saviour said in Matt 16:27 he will reward us according to our works...he didn't said by faith he said by works very clear. The Saviour knew that faith without works is dead and in the book of Revelation it says that God will judge us according to our works. People stop quoting the bible the bible but you are not following the bible. We are saved by grace after all we can do. Great episode Paul's brothers keep on the good work 👍🙏♥️
@daniallemmon5453
@daniallemmon5453 Жыл бұрын
Awesome video! Faith is definitely an action word. Do blood atonement next!
@jabulani22shepo61
@jabulani22shepo61 Жыл бұрын
Why?
@johnrowley310
@johnrowley310 Жыл бұрын
Faith is a noun...
@toddhebdon
@toddhebdon Жыл бұрын
Great Channel guys, I've already referred it to all of our extended family members and many friends. Love this doctrine that it's by grace all of our stains can/will be removed from our lives "with" redemption (repentance) Through Christ. By the way, for my wife's sake, could you perhaps invest in a little carpet stain remover to do a little touchup to remove those other stains? It's driving her nuts and that's all we can see now. LOL I realize you're working with a low budget but that would be great! :)
@thestickofjoseph
@thestickofjoseph Жыл бұрын
Glad you’ve joined us! Hahah yeah… we had an accident with a candle. We’re going to cover it with the table next round of filming!
@harmonillustration
@harmonillustration 6 ай бұрын
I propose that Faith and Works are the SAME THING. They're not two separate things. Look at it like this: Ask a married person this question--> "How do you know that your spouse loves you?" They'll give you an answer like, "They do this for me. They spend time with me. They hug me. They give me gifts. They tell me I'm attractive, etc." Those are WORKS. Your love for your spouse IS works! What you DO for them and how you treat them IS your love for them. They're not separate. Your love for them is not some nebulous thing separate from what you do. Think about it. If you did NOTHING to/for your spouse, how would they know that you love them? They wouldn't. If you didn't talk to them, interact with them in any way, they would not know that you love them. Now, just replace "Love" with "Faith". Our faith IS our works. They're the same. Faith is not some separate, nebulous thing apart from what we do. How we live our lives, the decisions we make, the way we treat others--> that IS our faith! That IS our love for God. That is how we "tell" God that we believe in Him.
@ourlifeinwashington4114
@ourlifeinwashington4114 3 ай бұрын
Wickedness is never happiness isnt quit true. After wickedness is never happiness is more correct. I once visited a brothel and was with the most beautiful woman I had ever seen, she was also a model. At the time I was being wicked I was extremely happy but now I have much regret for my actions. With age comes wisdom.
@rony6472Chile
@rony6472Chile Жыл бұрын
Brothers, I’d love if you taught/showed us how to study the scriptures your own way. How you go deep into the scriptures. I’d love to watch a 20-minute videos learning from you. Thank you so much
@karendinkel9040
@karendinkel9040 Жыл бұрын
Funny and spiritual. 10 stars
@davidhawkins5719
@davidhawkins5719 8 ай бұрын
Saved from death and hell through grace, advanced through works. Knowing that there’s multiple judgments, resurrections and degrees of glory explains why works are required. A person can be freed from Satan’s grasp through grace, but this only gets them out of the pit. Works take a person higher.
@FrederickBergman-gz5yp
@FrederickBergman-gz5yp 4 ай бұрын
The problem is that LDS scripture clearly states works based salvation ( hence 3 degrees of glory , and sub levels with the degrees) “ We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.“ This is a hybrid grace + works system. ( legalism) This clearly contradicts Paul’s teaching on salvation being exclusively on grace . SW Kimball called salvation by grace alone “ the greatest heresy in Christendom “ If Mormons believed in grace , they wouldn’t baptize dead people .
@WitnessJesustheChrist
@WitnessJesustheChrist 10 ай бұрын
When in doubt listen to Elder Holland. I love his football team metaphor. Christ has already won the game. And here we all are still trying to figure out which team we want to join and which jersey to put on. Nothing we can do with change the outcome of the game. He already paid the price to win the game. We just need to join ourselves to Him to his team or not.
@DavoBenjamin
@DavoBenjamin Жыл бұрын
Romans 6:1-2 1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? This reminds me of a bumper sticker of a car that rudely cut in front of me. "I'm not Perfect, just forgiven"
@Kaydubbbb
@Kaydubbbb 7 ай бұрын
Romans 2 is not telling the Roman saints that it is impossible to sin, Paul is telling them to stop sinning
@Kaydubbbb
@Kaydubbbb 7 ай бұрын
Romans 6:12-16 might help. It’s no good to cherry pick. We have to read all of God’s word.
@michaelking1944
@michaelking1944 Жыл бұрын
Because of faith I never question the unusual fact in the Book that the Lord brought forth
@conniebosley7370
@conniebosley7370 5 ай бұрын
Brad Wilcox gives a great talk called "His Grace is Sufficient" you might want to check out.
@CarlosRomero-pl9tk
@CarlosRomero-pl9tk 11 ай бұрын
this is a better explanation then saints unscripted, not that I dont like them i think there great, good job! As I thought about this issue, I think the examples of people showing faith unto repentance is a good way to explain what nephi was talking about, for example, when alma cried out to Christ after seeing the angel and he was in a state of torment for 3 days, he did not do anyhting but to humble himself and call out to Christ, at the end of the day, Christ wants the broken hearted and contrite spirited, i think that once we have a broken heart and contrite spirit, and then act in faith or repent, thats when this aspect of Grace kicks in, kind of like the king of the Lmanites, he called out to God with godly sorrow, and then was struck by the spirit and had his conversation experience.
@latterdaycovenantliving
@latterdaycovenantliving Жыл бұрын
There are other examples from the time period where “after all” is used instead of or interchangeably with “despite all”
@berneypearce6168
@berneypearce6168 8 ай бұрын
James Chapter 2
@johnrowley310
@johnrowley310 Жыл бұрын
I grew up in this church in the sixties and seventies. Grace was never mentioned or taught. I would like to know what grace has anything to do with declaring yourself worthy so you can enter a temple and progress to become a god. This is a works church. You have to pay money so you can get a pass to enter a temple. What good is grace if you don't do the works of the temple? Our Lord will declare he never knew these guys and they will enjoy eternity at the lake...
@DarenDeLane
@DarenDeLane Жыл бұрын
Temple work is not required to return to our Father in Heaven, the only requirement is Faith, Repentance, Baptism and following Jesus by keeping His commandments to the best of our ability and repenting when we fail. That's it.
@joeshriver778
@joeshriver778 Жыл бұрын
Then you never really listened or read. We are saved by Grace, Christ taught works and that if we do not the works, then we are condemned. In Revelations it states clearly that we will be judged by our works. We can do nothing and still get into Heaven, but we will not want to be in Gods presence, so we might at least be in the terrestrial kingdom as long as we tried to do good.
@J-Man8959
@J-Man8959 Жыл бұрын
Revelation 20:12🙏
@greentree_
@greentree_ Жыл бұрын
First time watching this channel. Nice content; I subscribed. Just the little camera movements look silly and kinda awkward. So I’d say that’s not necessary (just my opinion).
@boltrooktwo
@boltrooktwo Жыл бұрын
It is by the Grace of God we have the doctrine and the works to do. Good works are from God, it is ungodly to be against any good work, anywhere anytime.
@Drawn-by-Abundance
@Drawn-by-Abundance Жыл бұрын
Brent Schmidt remains uncontested in demonstrating thoroughly that the ancient concept of grace was always reciprocal; that the gift was always given in expectation of some form of reciprocation. Check out his work! 🕊️
@rodneyjamesmcguire
@rodneyjamesmcguire Жыл бұрын
The Bible is clear, however, that salvation (from sin) is by grace alone (justification). There is a difference between justification and sanctification.
@Drawn-by-Abundance
@Drawn-by-Abundance Жыл бұрын
@@rodneyjamesmcguire Agreed
@celadrial6684
@celadrial6684 22 күн бұрын
@@rodneyjamesmcguire False. See James 2:14-26 "Faith without works is dead" "You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only"
@rodneyjamesmcguire
@rodneyjamesmcguire 22 күн бұрын
@@celadrial6684 Context is so important with James 2. If your interpretation of it is correct, then the Bible contradicts itself in a central way, which would seem illogical, if it's the word of God. We know this because of Ephesians 2:8-10. You are not saved from sin by works. Jesus did that work, 100%. You can't do any of it, not even .00000000001%. That doesn't mean works have no place in Christian life, but it does mean no matter what works you do, they won't save you. And James 2:10 actually tells us why: "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all." Context is vitally important. Abraham was imputed righteousness for his actions with Isaac, among others, because that was pre-Atonement of Christ. At that time, physical sacrifice was required, awaiting the actual Atonement by the Messiah, yet to come. After the Atonement, for Christians / the rest of the world, it is by faith alone, that you are saved from sin.
@rodneyjamesmcguire
@rodneyjamesmcguire 21 күн бұрын
@@celadrial6684 My response was deleted. I'm not posting it again.
@JQMurrell
@JQMurrell 3 ай бұрын
I believe that faith is not A spiritual or metaphysical concept only. I believe that it is also physical. Because you can have faith and a belief, but to have faithfulness, you actually have to have physical follow-through, in order to do something faithfully. Kind of like going to church religiously. We physically go to church regularly. However, if you are faithfully following his commandments, you are actually doing something with full follow through, by fulfilling his commandments! So In that case, faith becomes a physical act!
@JQMurrell
@JQMurrell 3 ай бұрын
The reason I started to believe this way, is because in my patriarchal blessing, the last part of it states that these things of God's blessing for my life would come to fruition according to my faithfulness. However, it did not say according to my faith. And to me, according to my faithfulness, meant that it was according to how much I followed in his way! Because if I did not follow him faithfully in a manner of living life the way God would have me live, then I cannot say I have lived faithfully at all, and therefore he will not bring those same blessings! Because I will have followed another path of Free Will choice for my life, and not after him!
@SimonDaumMusic
@SimonDaumMusic Жыл бұрын
To me it is quite simple, "grace" is all that God can give and does give, and "works" is all we can and should give, though works can mean a lot of things to a lot of people, to some its the fruits of faith, to others the prove of faith, and in my view its a mixture of both.. To me it seems fair that since God gives all he can give (which is all and way much more than we can imagine and ever give back).. that we give all we can give... In my view that doesnt take away that without grace, all would be in vain...
@ClintRay2578
@ClintRay2578 Жыл бұрын
The "works" I got to do is... Keep his commandments! "If you love me, keep my commandments" That's one thing I don't understand about the grace that most Christians believe in is they say no matter what they're saved. But why would you want to be saved if you didn't keep the commandments of God? I have talked to some born again Christians that say once saved always saved which is mind-blowing and my opinion. 🤯
@idahoduckhunter
@idahoduckhunter Жыл бұрын
Can you keep the commandments?
@rodneyjamesmcguire
@rodneyjamesmcguire Жыл бұрын
We all have opinions. I would expect Christian folks to follow the clear Biblical standard, opinion to the contrary or not. The Bible says you are saved (from sin), by grace. Period. All stop. Do-not-pass-go... The grace as stated in the Bible is completely free.
@thestickofjoseph
@thestickofjoseph Жыл бұрын
One thing that we did not cover in this episode is the difference between salvation and exaltation. Or as the Bible would put it “Salvation“ and “eternal life.“ Salvation from sin is only half of the equation, but the personal effort part as well as repentance is what leads towards exaltation.
@rodneyjamesmcguire
@rodneyjamesmcguire Жыл бұрын
@@idahoduckhunter Excellent theological question for LDS folks.
@idahoduckhunter
@idahoduckhunter Жыл бұрын
@@thestickofjoseph where do LDS find exaltation in the Bible? Salvation is eternal life in biblical Christianity. Salvation is not being at enmity with God anymore because your sins are justified. Once justified we will be with God for eternity (because our holy and just God he his righteous anger and judgement satisfied) on a new earth and under a new heaven
@YDKM1959
@YDKM1959 10 ай бұрын
Ok I haven’t joined the church BUT I feel the trouble with this is the way the LDS explains it. Non LDS and LDS use the word work’s differently. In LDS works is used to explain the things you should do to strengthen your relationship with your savior. So non LDS hear works and it’s paired with a step on the covenant path or the daily things you should do pray, read your scriptures, do service etc. So the rest of the world hears works and lds hears works (strengthening your relationship with Christ). It was one thing I struggled with because I knew you didn’t mean it that way but it’s also all I could hear. It bothered me until I could figure it out and put it to words.
@mickski548
@mickski548 Жыл бұрын
Why don’t you guys have more subs, people are stacking on hitting the subs
@thestickofjoseph
@thestickofjoseph Жыл бұрын
Thanks dawg! Share with your friends.
@KnuttyEntertainment
@KnuttyEntertainment Жыл бұрын
It’s a new channel give ‘em time.
@theodorebe
@theodorebe Жыл бұрын
Don’t lie to the viewers. It’s not “only repentance”. Your apostle Dallin H. Oaks said, “And what is ‘all we can do’? It surely includes repentance (see Alma 24:11) AND baptism, keeping the commandments, and enduring to the end. Moroni pleaded, ‘Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ’ (Moroni 10:32). Edit: I welcome you to chat together about this whether with just me or on my friend’s podcast.
@couragecoachsam
@couragecoachsam 7 ай бұрын
Those verses in 2 Nephi are explaining how the Nephites observed the Law of Moses yet understood the role of the Savior. The Jews believed in works-based salvation. The Nephites, however, understood it was by grace they were saved. Nevertheless. They were still expected to observe the Law of Moses in anticipation of Christ fulfilling the law. I haven’t come across a single person offer this simple explanation right there in the scriptures. To me, it clears everything up when evangelicals accuse us of being works-based.
@GarySaint-xm6tr
@GarySaint-xm6tr Жыл бұрын
What if I told you almost all Christians do not understand Paul? Peter wasn't kidding when he said Paul is hard to understand. They think he is teaching that no type of works can save, deliver, you from sin, when he is really teaching that none of the works of the law of Moses can save us. He shortens works of the law of Moses to works, but if you add of the law of Moses every time he says works, you will begin to understand Paul. Grace is help in time of need, according to the Bible, not unmerited favor. Nowhere in the Bible is grace defined as unmerited favor, but ,as I just cited it does define grace as help in time of need. That we may have grace to help in time of need. So when reading Paul's letters add of the law of Moses every time he says works, and help and mercy from God in time of need every time he says grace. Paul spent all of his mortal Christian ministry very angerily correcting the teachings of some Jews who had become Christians that parts or all of the law of Moses had to be kept to be saved, the most prominent teaching being circumcision. Paul understood that none of the law of Moses could save, deliver a person from sin, because none of the law of Moses required a person to change from their spirit to obey it. Paul said he kept the law blameless twice I. H8s letters, but he was still full of all kinds of inward sins, envey, lust, hate, fear, malace. When, as Jesus taught in His sermon on the mount, we love all people, even our enemies, we will never kill. When we don't even lust to fornicate or comment adultery, we will never commit adultery, we are built upon a rock, and we cannot fall. Paul calls Christ's teachings the law of the inward man, the law of the spirit. The fact that the Book of Mormon records Christ saying the law of Moses has an end in Him, and that every jot and tittle is fulfilled, does not appear in the Bibke in that clear and strong a language, and shows it was not made up by Joseph Smith, but the writer who engraved it understood it. As I said, most Christians don't even understand it. 2 Corinthians 3:7-11 7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. 11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious. Brothers and sisters, we must do works to be saved, we must be baptized by someone holding the proper authority, we must work, through grace, to change our carnal nature, we must help those God puts in our path to help if we are able, and He absolutely will put people in our path to help. If you are standing in a grocery store line, and a young father carrying his new born has food for his child, and diapers, but does not have enough money to pay, are you saved if you do not help him?
@johnrowley310
@johnrowley310 Жыл бұрын
You never knew our Lord and he does not know you. Your works are as filthy rags before the Lord. John, the Baptist said he was not worthy to tie our Lords shoes. Why don't you skip grace and show Jesus all your wonderful works and don't forget to tell Jesus he was wasting his time on the cross because your works are good to go...
@theodorebe
@theodorebe Жыл бұрын
From official mormon teaching, “Divine grace is needed by every soul in consequence of the fall of Adam and also because of man’s weaknesses and shortcomings. *However, grace cannot suffice without total effort on the part of the recipient. Hence the explanation, ‘It is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do’* (2 Nephi 25:23)…but the Bible responds, “then grace is no longer grace” (Romans‬ ‭11‬:‭6‬).
@beaton8844
@beaton8844 Жыл бұрын
Have you considered that repentance may be an element of sanctification? See 1John 3:2-3 & 9.
@Kaydubbbb
@Kaydubbbb 7 ай бұрын
Good job on the balance of grace and works. You did not, however include the specific works that are required by LDS doctrine for forgiveness of sin. The evangelical cousins of LDS are often claiming that LDS believe in salvation by works because of baptism and other ordinances of the LDS “ exaltation”. Not only that, LDS tend to think of exaltation when they are using the word salvation, and their Christian cousins usually do not even believe in exaltation. Since we have definitions that are so different, using descriptive word phrases instead of terms with very different meanings to one another may help avoid perceived disagreements, We are not even arguing about the same things. I would like to see a neutral conversation with an educated evangelical or baptist or whatever who will simply define words.
@Greg-McIver
@Greg-McIver Жыл бұрын
God the Father goes by the rules. Jesus kept all the rules and extended his perfection IF we repent and follow Jesus to the end. Grace is conditional on the grounds of repentance. No repentance, no extension of grace. Repentance means turn away from sin. We are saved from our sins if we relent, not IN oir sins without repentance.
@rodneyjamesmcguire
@rodneyjamesmcguire Жыл бұрын
Biblical grace is unconditional.
@Greg-McIver
@Greg-McIver Жыл бұрын
@@rodneyjamesmcguire, the words of Jesus are clear. Read them completely and not isolate the words of Paul. Paul was speaking to Jews who were steeped in the Mosaic law and not the fulfilled law of repentance and grace. Matthew 7: 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: Matthew 11:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother. John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love. John 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. There are many more examples of John the Baptist telling the people repent and prepare for the Messiah. Repentance is with your thoughts, words and deeds, not just words. James preaches in James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Jesus set the example by his thoughts, words and deeds and asked us to be like Him and our Father in Heaven.
@germanslice
@germanslice Жыл бұрын
@@rodneyjamesmcguire Grace is not all unconditional because repentance is also involved when it comes to Grace because there are different levels of salvation to inherit. Its not just all one level. There are many mansions in the kingdom of my Father.
@rodneyjamesmcguire
@rodneyjamesmcguire Жыл бұрын
@@germanslice I've no dog in this race, being Atheist. However, Biblical grace is unconditional. It's free. There aren't different levels of salvation, Biblically. Justification (by grace, alone, given freely), is a different thing from Sanctification (that which most closely aligns with the Mormon idea of "exaltation").
@joeshriver778
@joeshriver778 Жыл бұрын
@@rodneyjamesmcguire and yet Christ preached works or be condemned.
@AnaliliB
@AnaliliB Жыл бұрын
In my mission at TempleSquare, I was aked this very question and I read that very Scripture. The couple shook their heads and left. Hopefully they gave it more thought and the Spirit helped them sort it out.
@jamesbaldwin7676
@jamesbaldwin7676 Жыл бұрын
Nephi was preaching Christianity 600 years before the birth of Christ. Nephi and his family were living and observing the laws of Moses (over 600 rules and regulations.) And that is the meaning of "after all we can do." (It's a natural statement coming from an Old Testament Hebrew.) In spite of this, Nephi was fully aware of the limitations of those rules and knew the true source of salvation. Do you suppose 22 year old Joseph Smith was thinking of all of these complexities, when he "concocted" the Book of Mormon and it's literary characters?
@jamesbaldwin7676
@jamesbaldwin7676 Жыл бұрын
@DARK KATACLYSM Christianity was certainly refined by the birth of Christ, but many of the concepts and doctrines of Christianity are rooted in the Old Testament. Indeed most Christians would argue that the entire Old Testament and it's Mosaic Laws, are only a primer for Christianity. Even Jesus said "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." And Jesus went first to John for baptism (which was being practiced prior to the Christianity of Christ.)
@ilmari7568
@ilmari7568 Жыл бұрын
You are wrong. Nephi has never lived.
@jamesbaldwin7676
@jamesbaldwin7676 Жыл бұрын
@@ilmari7568 Forget about Nephi then... Just understand that Christianity did not begin at the birth of Christ. Wasn't the attempted sacrifice of Issac by Abraham (his own father) a similitude of the sacrifice of Jesus? And what about all of the sacrificial animals of Mosaic Law? The fact that you don't happen to see this, is reason enough for the Book of Mormon and another witness of Jesus Christ.
@jamesbaldwin7676
@jamesbaldwin7676 Жыл бұрын
@@ElsaBotha8379 Haven't you got something else to say besides derision directed at me? What happened to Christian charity and brotherly love?
@jamesbaldwin7676
@jamesbaldwin7676 Жыл бұрын
@DARK KATACLYSM Have you read the Book of Mormon? If you have then you should know that Jesus Christ is mentioned almost 4000 times in 6000 verses and by 100 different names and titles. I don't think this is Satan's plan to get me to hell. Set your hatred and prejudice aside for a time and check it out.
@FrederickBergman-gz5yp
@FrederickBergman-gz5yp 4 ай бұрын
The Book of Mormon says that you have to “ be perfected in Christ , and deny yourselves of all ungodliness, love God with all your might mind and strength THEN is his grace sufficient for you “ Mor 10:32 In other words you have to QUALIFY for Christ’s grace . That’s not grace based salvation. In Mormonism, being “saved “ basically just means being resurrected. Basically everyone ( except people who leave the LdS church ) will live in a kingdom of glory in the next life . Grace is “ undeserved merit or favor “ The LDS also teach you can’t return back to the presence of the Father without a LDS baptism and covenant obedience ( they call it “the covenant path “) and you can’t have a full salvation ( they call it exaltation) with a marriage to a spouse in a Mormon temple and strict obedience to LDS laws and ordinances Including paying their church 10 percent of your income for life .
@dannylarsen4290
@dannylarsen4290 Жыл бұрын
The work described in 1 John 3:23 is Love. There is freedom and liberty in Christ to follow the Holy Spirit in how we love others. That work does not include religious obligations as under the Old Covenant. For example: tithing is not required in the New Covenant. We are to give freely as the Spirit directs. Yet! Religion "restores" and misappropriates that practice in order to fleece the flock. Then builds a financial empire worth hundreds of billions. I'm sure God is disgusted with self-proclaimed apostles and prophets who in His name impose works-based commandments in order for followers to qualify for exaltation.
@joeshriver778
@joeshriver778 Жыл бұрын
We still have to do. Read Christs words in Luke 10:25-37; Matt 25:14-46. Then read Revelations 20:12-13. This justifies works. Even if we say we believe, that does not mean we are saved if we do not do His commandments. We can decide not to pay tithing and not go to the Temple and we will still be saved, we just will not be in God the Fathers presence. We might be able to be in Christs presence though.
@doctorwindowwasher
@doctorwindowwasher 11 ай бұрын
In your discussion, the key point, This discussion is needed to just not be unwitting secularistst, and that even now we don't take God seriously, and this is my point Even your KZfaq "short " mocking of marriage by some sort of joke, was not appropriate. The question about the Book Mormon scriptures I would like to clarify, and reflect more about is ..... that the natural man is an enemy to GOD. My take is that by doing the unnatural in our minds, like being not mad when we get cut off by a Mac truck or a racing motorcycle we can either laugh or have feelings or better yet modes of the mind that can do the "unnatural" as the BOM states in this verse.
@thestickofjoseph
@thestickofjoseph 11 ай бұрын
KZfaq short mocking marriage????
@tinacarvalhoBodyandHealth
@tinacarvalhoBodyandHealth Жыл бұрын
satan has nothing so knowing God and not doing is statan like
@JQMurrell
@JQMurrell 3 ай бұрын
We can all be saved, but that doesn't mean we have given up our sin, in order to repent and choose new ways of living! The point here. Being that even if we are saved, we can still be chained by old sin and not be living in a state of Christ's freedom. Based on what we choose by our works of free will! And if we are bound by our sin, then we are bound by the devil In some way, because we have not turned everything over to God, to be made new again! We're still choosing old ways! Those ways of our living are our works! It is how we choose to live everyday and follow after him. People always forget that Jesus Christ told his followers to actively give up their old ways and follow after him, and he told others that the world will know you to be different, because we follow after his ways. Therefore, we change the way of our works. And even if we are saved, we are still judged by our works in the end! So our works are of importance, because that is how much we have loved God and Jesus Christ and chosen to follow after him! If we do not do works as Jesus Christ told us to live in the way he taught, then we have not followed after him. We have done like Judas Iscarrot, who was part of Jesus's circle, but did not follow Jesus's ways.
@johnpipi2
@johnpipi2 Жыл бұрын
one question if you don't pay tithing can you make it to the highest degree in the celestial kingdom? no you cannot. So if you don't pay you can make it to the highest level and become a god. It's not by grace its by your works. biblical christianity is 100% by grace not your works
@thestickofjoseph
@thestickofjoseph Жыл бұрын
One thing we didn’t cover in this video is the difference between salvation and exaltation. And once again, there is a reason that we chose not to be evangelicals, namely that the misinterpreted teaching of Paul seem to hold more weight than the teachings of Jesus…
@johnrowley310
@johnrowley310 Жыл бұрын
@@thestickofjoseph So Jesus strikes Paul blind so he can lead us astray. Jesus needed Paul to show us that The law was our school master that leads us to Christ. The law and works condemn us. Jesus saves us through his death on the cross, not a flower garden. Through grace we have peace with God and when we die we will be with him. Your exaltation, for what? thinking you can become a god because you paid money to learn some Masonic handshakes in a so called temple...
@joeshriver778
@joeshriver778 Жыл бұрын
@@johnrowley310 no, it’s that you do not understand Paul. Christ taught works , do or be condemned for not doing. In revelations it talks about being judged by our works. We are saved by grace, we make it into heaven even if we do nothing. We do the works because we love God and our fellow man, and with following Gods commandments he will bless us white what he promised us, just as Christ has said throughout the Bible
@theodorebe
@theodorebe Жыл бұрын
@@thestickofjoseph From official mormon teaching, “Divine grace is needed by every soul in consequence of the fall of Adam and also because of man’s weaknesses and shortcomings. *However, grace cannot suffice without total effort on the part of the recipient. Hence the explanation, ‘It is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do’* (2 Nephi 25:23)…but the Bible responds, “then grace is no longer grace” (Romans‬ ‭11‬:‭6‬).
@theodorebe
@theodorebe Жыл бұрын
@@thestickofjoseph2 Nephi 25:23 doesn’t mention exaltation. The Book of Mormon doesn’t mention exaltation. Exaltation is a later development in Joseph Smith’s mind in order to control more people by making them obey more ordinances. The Mormon Church’s official interpretation of that verse requires total effort on part of the participant BEFORE the grace can “suffice”.
@chriscb
@chriscb 4 ай бұрын
Concerning 2 Nephi 25:22, (edit: your still image shows verse 22 not verse 23) it's actually verse 23 you quoted NOT verse 22. Also, it's a shame you guys don't just read the verse in context vs having to scour the Book of Mormon for some other explanation as to how they are "saved by grace, after all THEY could do." All one has to do is read this verse IN CONTEXT to find the answer. The context of verse 23 "For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do." is found in the next two verses, 24 and 25. "And, notwithstanding we believe in Christ, we keep the law of Moses, and look forward with steadfastness unto Christ, until the law shall be fulfilled. For, for this end was the law given; wherefore the law hath become dead unto us, and we are made alive in Christ because of our faith; yet we keep the law because of the commandments." All THEY could do was keep the law of Moses (according to the narrative). Why? Because, according to the story, THEY were still under the law of Moses. So, all THEY could do was do what God had instructed Moses to teach the people of Israel. That's ALL they could do. But, it would appear the author of 2 Nephi understood that despite ALL they could do, they were still saved by the grace of God. It really is just that simple. kzfaq.info/get/bejne/nL1ldZZ335jMnas.htmlsi=DJSUy9osohEXDp22&t=316
@deborahbarlow4309
@deborahbarlow4309 10 ай бұрын
The LDS don't have all the ordinances to "earn" their salvation. They have them because the Lord told them to have them. If it was to "earn" then how did the dead "earn" their salvation, when we (the royal we) are the ones doing their work? No, the ordinnces and work for the dead isn't to "earn". (Romans 4 is a good explaination to what i am talking about.) James 2:17, Even so faith, if it have not works is dead, it being alone. And of course, vice versa, works without faith mean nothhing (as shown by Cain and his sacrifice, Genesis 5).
@jasonmears4393
@jasonmears4393 Жыл бұрын
Jesus christ clearly taught the "after all we can dos" christ taught works so clearly and beautifully. His message and his doctrine time and time again to receive eternal life was 1. You must have faith. 2. You must repent 3. You must be baptized 4. You must receive the Holy Ghost 5. You must endure to the end (keep the commandments) All of this plus his teachings in the sermon on the mount were qualifications ( the after all you can dos) for eternal life. We must do our part!! Why? Because Jesus Christ said so!! David bednar taught that anytime you hear the word grace, you should interpret it, as meaning the enabling power of Jesus Christ . That's what grace is, the enabling power of Jesus christ to overcome sin and to have the enabling power to become like christ. So, yes, absolutely we are saved by grace, AFTER ALL WE CAN DO. JUST AS CHRIST DID HIS PART, WE MUST DO OUR PART. Unless you are BECOM8NG LIKE CHRIST BY YOUR AFTER ALL YOU CAN DOS, you will not be comfortable living in gods holy presence. The scriptures make it perfectly clear that no uncleanthing will enter the kingdom of god. The after all you can dos are the very things that will make us like christ, therefore more comfortable and clean to live with him someday. If we neglect the after all you can dos we are deceiving ourselves and threatening our entrance into the kingdom of god. They are the very things that will make us HOLY. What was it that made Mother teresa one of the most christ like woman to ever walk upon the earth? It was her works, her after all she could dos that made her so special and so christlike and so holy. She didn't sit around meditating and talking about loving and serving the poor. She put her faith into action. She did the AFTER ALL YOU CAN DO'S. To make a huge difference into the lives of others.
@Eagle_Powers
@Eagle_Powers Жыл бұрын
Too bad Spencer W. Kimball disagrees with you.
@joeshriver778
@joeshriver778 9 ай бұрын
No, you err. Yes, we will sin, but that does not mean that we can continue to sin without impunity. We must repent and draw closer to Christ, we must forsake sin and strive to not sin, it is everywhere in the Bible, and I’m sorry you do not understand that
@thestickofjoseph
@thestickofjoseph 9 ай бұрын
Did I ever say that wasn’t the case? We agree with your statement 100%.
@joeshriver778
@joeshriver778 9 ай бұрын
@@thestickofjoseph my reply was supposed to be to someone else that was arguing that we can sin and not care because we are saved no matter what
@rodneyjamesmcguire
@rodneyjamesmcguire Жыл бұрын
When Smith dictated The Book of Mormon, the phrase, "...after all we can do" meant the same as "despite all you can do". Furthermore, the Nephi statement is directed to people before the atonement happened, while still under the law of sacrifice (Mosaic Law), therefore works were still required, at that time, in substitution of the atonement that was yet to happen. Having been LDS, you definitely must do works for exaltation. As LDS, "saved" is different from "exaltation", thus the confusion. But most definitely, you must complete the ordinances, to gain exaltation (getting to the Celestial kingdom), in the LDS paradigm. The Bible is remarkably clear, however, in Christianity, grace is absolutely free. You don't qualify for grace. I think you should clarify the difference between justification (by grace ALONE), and sanctification (works with Holy Spirit). Not to bad for your resident Atheist, eh?
@paulblack1799
@paulblack1799 Жыл бұрын
Right you are, Rodney. Nephi's whole discourse was to tell people living under the law of Moses that it was still grace that saves no matter how well you keep the law.
@ClintRay2578
@ClintRay2578 Жыл бұрын
When I first read your post I was disagreeing but once you brought in saved and exaltation then I can agree with your post. I don't believe that it's despite what you do. I believe it's after what you do but again after means living God's commandments your whole life. Not anything specific. Example: You have to run a mile in 3 minutes to be saved but is you just have to run the mile?
@ClintRay2578
@ClintRay2578 Жыл бұрын
​@@paulblack1799 So if I'm saved by grace if I go and kill people after I was saved... am I still saved? Say if Hitler said his saving prayer and then did his grossness after is he saved? Probably extreme example haha
@paulblack1799
@paulblack1799 Жыл бұрын
​@@ClintRay2578 no one made those points...I don't know where you got them. Point was that no matter how well you think you're checking off 613 commandments you ain't savin' yerself.
@paulblack1799
@paulblack1799 Жыл бұрын
​@@ClintRay2578 Rodster was right about in spite of / notwithstanding, etc. There are several cases in 19th century literature of the phrase meaning exactly that. It's not before, during and after. It's notwithstanding.
@gariciu
@gariciu Жыл бұрын
Reasoning with quoting other scriptures is problematic because, you are making assumptions on the meanings of the words grace and faith and the phrase after all we can do. Many scholars have already talked about this and continue to talk about this. Other commenters have alluded to them. Dan McClellan has done a wonderful job with after all, stating it meant despite in the 1800s. Google his article. Grace and faith, I'd encourage everyone to look at the scholarship on the New Perspective on Paul. We understand so much more about what grace and faith meant at his time. Greek words typically used in business transactions and the like.
@jabulani22shepo61
@jabulani22shepo61 Жыл бұрын
Dan is not a Prophet but an intellectual confusing his man made modern ideology away from what God has revealed through Prophets. Dan also believe nothing is wrong with homosexuality and he justified that so that tells me everything about how he thinks.
@gariciu
@gariciu Жыл бұрын
@@jabulani22shepo61 I agree he is not a prophet. He is a scholar. But that doesn't mean all his scholarship is wrong. Neither should we discount scholarship or look down on it in general. His article which I'll link below is consistent with what others have said. Even Elder Christofferson used a similar understanding of 2nd Nephi in his talk Truth Endures. So I think we should be careful before blindly throwing out what someone has to say because other things they say we disagree with. We all hold various opinions, both wrong and right. And I do disagree with a lot of what McClellan has to say when it comes to his politics and when he is using it as a lens. I don't listen to him much anymore because of it. But when he stays within his scholarship he brings very intriguing things to the table to help us understand the Bible more. Just hard times because you have to sift, not hard just constant. In regards to the 2nd Nephi verse on grace, his article is great. The understanding it provides helps draw a deeper meaning and it accords to the ancient meaning of grace too, as a gift we could not provide given in a time of need, but with the requirement of faith attached to it. Either way, hope you read the article. Super interesting. If not hopefully read what Elder Christofferson has said and Elder Uchtdorf has said concerning grace. His article: hcommons.org/deposits/item/hc:43493/
@theodorebe
@theodorebe Жыл бұрын
From official mormon teaching, “Divine grace is needed by every soul in consequence of the fall of Adam and also because of man’s weaknesses and shortcomings. *However, grace cannot suffice without total effort on the part of the recipient. Hence the explanation, ‘It is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do’* (2 Nephi 25:23)…but the Bible responds, “then grace is no longer grace” (Romans‬ ‭11‬:‭6‬).
@ericredd5590
@ericredd5590 11 ай бұрын
You did a masterful job of implying that grace is sufficient while dancing around all the things Mormons are required to do in order to be worthy of “exaltation”. How many Mormons cannot enter temples because their “works” are insufficient? Grace will not allow them in Mormon temples, and they certainly won’t be allowed in Mormon heaven. You sound good but the doctrine is what it is, and it is based on “works”.
@JQMurrell
@JQMurrell 3 ай бұрын
I like how you state that our works are not what overcomes the s in, because Jesus already did that! However, it is the work s which allow us to follow a different path of our choosing, by our free will, in order to choose him, And the way he told us to live, so that we become new in him and made different in him! Because there should be a difference between the way we choose our lifestyle, for example, and the way that the world chooses. If we look the same as the world, and we are a friend of the world, then we are no friend to him! And that's what the New testament says! God does not befriend those who are a friend of the world!
@prophetcentral
@prophetcentral Жыл бұрын
So what are works? Are they ordinances? Does God want us staying busy on a hamster wheel of ordinances which we call works? The Lord gave a grave warning to us. D&C 124:46 But if they will not hearken to my voice, nor unto the voice of these men whom I have appointed, they shall not be blest, because they pollute mine holy grounds, and mine holy ordinances, and charters, and my holy words which I give unto them. 47 And it shall come to pass that if you build a house unto my name, and do not do the things that I say, I will not perform the oath which I make unto you, neither fulfil the promises which ye expect at my hands, saith the Lord. 48 For instead of blessings, ye, by your own works, bring cursings, wrath, indignation, and judgments upon your own heads, by your follies, and by all your abominations, which you practice before me, saith the Lord. Was the house built yet God's commandments not fulfilled? Well, let's ask about the promise that was expected...was it fulfilled? 45 And if my people will hearken unto my voice, and unto the voice of my servants whom I have appointed to lead my people, behold, verily I say unto you, they shall not be moved out of their place. Were they moved out of their place? That is a resounding YES, no refuting to be had here. In truth the house was never fully fully finished yet works continued, the spot was not consecrated, but it was defiled in an attempt to sell it off and get out of town.God never revealed that what the church did was what he had in mind. Isn't it odd that all of the temple work we do for ourselves now was originally done in Utah in a house that wasn't a temple at all, and so it was for nearly 30 years. Works tied to the temple, or religious works called ordinances seem to be foretold to become polluted and done to bring cursings upon our heads. What makes us think that showing good works of the temple are a testimony of our faith and belief? Could this be a circumstance of the blind leading the blind, or the great and spacious building has been made into a temple filled with religious ordinances. Isaiah 24:5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant. Who all over the world is changing ordinances? Who can trangress the law unless they have the fullness thereof? Who can break a covenant unless it was already established in clarity? That points to one very specific group of people among the gentiles. D&C 22:2 Wherefore, although a man should be baptized an hundred times it availeth him nothing, for you cannot enter in at the strait gate by the law of Moses, neither by your dead works. This is where the Book of Mormon pinpoints with clarity what the doctrine of Christ is to rid ourselves of dead works, outward ordinances and carnal commandments that look and feel like they are godly works, but they deny the power or the grace thereof. 2 Nephi 31:13 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, I know that if ye shall follow the Son, with full purpose of heart, acting no hypocrisy and no deception before God, but with real intent, repenting of your sins, witnessing unto the Father that ye are willing to take upon you the name of Christ, by baptism-yea, by following your Lord and your Savior down into the water, according to his word, behold, then shall ye receive the Holy Ghost; yea, then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost; and then can ye speak with the tongue of angels, and shout praises unto the Holy One of Israel. What if we go down into the waters of baptism a hundred times but the Holy Ghost is never received by fire and baptism of the Holy Ghost yet we continue onward in religious works of the flesh thinking we are getting greater salvation and more grace from God? How can this bring cursings? It boils down to pride. It is the invading force to which we are ever ignorant. It polluted even the best of intentions and kindest of actions. This is why Christ himself portrayed in a beautiful chiasmus punctuated by a warning and curse. 3 Nephi 11:32 And this is my doctrine, and it is the doctrine which the Father hath given unto me; and I bear record of the Father, and the Father beareth record of me, and the Holy Ghost beareth record of the Father and me; and I bear record that the Father commandeth all men, everywhere, to repent and believe in me. 33 And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God. 34 And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned. 35 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and I bear record of it from the Father; and whoso believeth in me believeth in the Father also; and unto him will the Father bear record of me, for he will visit him with fire and with the Holy Ghost. 36 And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will bear record unto him of the Father and me; for the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost are one. 37 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and become as a little child, and be baptized in my name, or ye can in nowise receive these things. 38 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and be baptized in my name, and become as a little child, or ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God. 39 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them. 40 And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them.
@germanslice
@germanslice Жыл бұрын
When we learn to walk with God he gives us more grace. We go from Grace to Grace from degree to degree, from level to level when we walk with God. That is how Grace works it is conditional upon our exercising faith in Jesus Christ to Action when we exercise faith we start to level up just like in RPG video games where you have to do things in order to level up.. Or in other words, learn to walk on the waters of faith, we have to put one foot ahead of the other (WORKS) in order to reach the end goal we have to do something to put our faith in Christ into action.. If we we just look around and don't walk forward to follow Christ and only just believe without taking action then we sink into the water like Peter if we are just being hearers of the word only and not doers and we can only be doers of the word when we put one step ahead of the other and press forward following Christ and we cannot follow Christ save we keep the commandments of the Father in order to follow Christ and walk in his footsteps.
@joeshriver778
@joeshriver778 Жыл бұрын
We do have to do. Why was Christ baptized? Why did He preach doing? Why are we judged by works? Dead works are the things we do when it is just a checklist. We should be doing the works because of our Love of Christ and our fellow man.
@taylorberry7899
@taylorberry7899 Жыл бұрын
Except for black people before the 1970s right
@ethancate8462
@ethancate8462 Жыл бұрын
Nope! Black people always were able to be saved. We didn't use to think this as I'm sure you know, but we now know the truth, and I wish I could give Brigham Young a piece of my mind because that "doctrine" lead so many people astray.
@davidjanbaz7728
@davidjanbaz7728 Жыл бұрын
@@ethancate8462 only as Servants in the Celestial kingdom: as per one of your fake Apostles speech by Mark E. Petersen at BYU August 27 , 1954.
@ethancate8462
@ethancate8462 Жыл бұрын
@@davidjanbaz7728 and I have no problem knowing that apostle was incorrect.
@theodorebe
@theodorebe Жыл бұрын
@@ethancate8462the supposed apostles and prophets say they will never even lead you astray, though, so with so many incorrect claims and teachings, how can you trust them at all? Joseph Smith can’t even discern whether a revelation is from God, satan, or himself 😅 The bible would say to either stone them or at least pay no attention to them.
@davidjanbaz7728
@davidjanbaz7728 Жыл бұрын
This video is just CYA ing The Still Mormon teachings that you must do the temple ordinances to enter the Celestial kingdom. That's not the teaching of Paul who says that Christ already seated us in his Heavenly places in Heaven. Ephesians 2:5,6. "Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh." / works or ( temple ordinances) ? Galatians 3:3. The Book of Mormon distorts the Bible !
@roburry
@roburry Жыл бұрын
If you only wanted to understand…
@roburry
@roburry Жыл бұрын
Does one have to be baptized? That’s an ordinance.
@germanslice
@germanslice Жыл бұрын
You are ignorant of Paul's teachings and seem to just want to wrest away with them for you don't seem to realize that the Saints of God that he was teaching most of them WERE FULL BLOWN TEMPLE SAINTS who were already baptized into the Church who were living the Basic Commandments of God and were doing Baptisms also for their Dead and were listening and living all the sermons and sayings and parables and teachings that Christ had taught to them to apply in their daily lives so they would not be the foolish men who built their house upon the sand that he warned to those who don't apply all his sayings and teachings in their lives which he taught both inside and outside of the temple when he was not in his Father's House for the Saints went up into the temple DAILY even after his death to continue to learn from the Apostles and to live the Strict Temple Saint Consecrated lifestyle of Faith and Obedience to God that Paul and other Apostles had all reinforced in their letters to the saints to live by that Jesus Christ had taught them to do in his FATHER'S OWN HOUSE in the temple. So you took the temple saint teachings of Paul that he addressed out to all the temple saints in the churches he wrote to and claimed the promises of the temple for yourself of the saints without even becoming a temple saint yourself to actually claim them. How silly. You try to walk straight off into the King's Palace making demands of heaven without having the wedding garment. Ridiculous is your defense of Paul because you are not yet a temple saint so how can you claim the promises that were made to temple saints when you are not even a temple saint yourself.. I don't see how that can work. You can't do things your own way. You have to do things the King's way.
@johnrowley310
@johnrowley310 Жыл бұрын
@@roburry If only Joe would have not propagated this garbage we would not need to be protecting are faith from it...
@davidjanbaz7728
@davidjanbaz7728 Жыл бұрын
@@roburry you obviously don't want to understand historical Christianity. Baptism is Christian for 1800 years before you All existed and tried to counterfeit Christianity.
@academyofchampions1
@academyofchampions1 Жыл бұрын
It fascinates me how difficult this doctrine is to understand. Thank God for the restoration and living prophets and apostles!
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