It's funny how the technologies that protect the fire from occurring in the 1st place (insulating batteries, separating them, mounting in strong containers) is actually hindering firefighting efforts.

I have been part of a few research sessions here in Australia and there really isn’t any clear solutions. I think the main priority should be just containing the fire and reducing public exposure to toxic gases. I personally would like to see decals on the car they identify the cell chemistry.

Germany uses a small crane and a steel shipping container. The entire car is dunked into the container full of water for three days. All you can do is cool the exothermic reaction after runaway has occurred.

If anything, if EVs become common enough, it may be best to just have some sort of enclosed trailer with a winch inside that you can tow a burning EV into. That way it would be in an enclosed space that you can vent the gasses directionally while managing temperature.

As a fire investigator, I deal with Li-Ion battery fires ever-increasingly. Your assessment and comments are spot on and should be heeded by everyone. Well done sir.

"The best for electric vehicle is to let it burn"... I'm glad that we agree on that.

So the battery boxes need a flooding port accessible on the exterior of the vehicle. Or the boxes need an internal fire suppression system.

Flooding port on the battery box would def help. Needs to be standardized for the entire industry.

Thanks, good discussion, it's really big issue. Surely manufacturers need to be part of the solution.

A decade ago when I was telling people just let them burn and I’ll be over soon. People laugh at me like I was crazy.. This is what happens when people don’t have the slightest concept of physics and thermodynamics . Are we managers or supervisors who are in charge are not confident at the job that was assigned to them making decisions . If the vehicle is located, where those be no harm to property or people, just let it burn .

Great video. Subscribed. Cheers ...

Mike from the Hazmat Guys here.. nice job on the information provided in this video. Everything is spot on.

I saw a specialty truck in Europe where a huge tank on the back of a truck where the ev was hoisted into the tank and completely submerged. This is the best approach ive seen. It minimizes Poineaus fumes and damage to roads.

Just another example of how electric vehicles solved a problem that didn’t exist.

Worthwhile to mention that the topic is about the traditional (or classic) LiCoNiMn type of battery chemistry. It has the positive temperature coefficient. In recent days, some EV models start to use LiFePO4 type batteries. Although it's energy density isn't as good as the classic, most commonly used Li with Cobalt, Nickel, Manganese batteries, it's main advantage is its negative temperature coefficient. I.e., it's negative feedback loop will make it less likely to burn out of control.

A great example of how difficult it is to use water to put out an EV fire is the various videos of EVs that have ended up underwater at the boat ramp and are happily burning away while being completely submerged.

Thankyou for providing the info on the blankets. Won't put the fire out, but will protect exposures. Loved to hear the article about battery briner, and curious about your thoughts on the Cobra ColdCut.

Excellent topic & analysis!

Awesome video, thanks 🙌👍😊👌

Well presented video. 👍

I wonder if there could be a special access port added in the same area for all vehicles(make it standard so all fire fighters know where it is) to the battery boxes that is normally sealed that can be accessed with that puncture device and instead of water being injected which could short out the batteries, you use something like liquid nitrogen. This will cool down the battery down quickly and not short circuit things.

I would say finding way to manage the flame until it goes out. Maybe something like a fire blanket, with an exhaust port that leads to something that can neutralize the hazardous smoke.

Great video, thanks :) what are your thoughts on tbe f500 extinguishers? (They are advertised as designed for lithium battery fires)

I've heard different views on how common electric battery fires are. Is it a rare occurrence or is it fairly common? I'd love to know!

What about an integrated fire suppression system built inside the battery box?

Could they not add some sort build in fire suppression system inside the battery box?

I've never watched a video from StacheD Training... Very helpfull video. Greeting from México.

5:14 "energetic event" -- I love euphemisms. This one goes with rapid unscheduled disassembly.

Many thanks for the great video presentation. What methods would you suggest for the Maritime sector? Many RO-RO vessels are carrying so many AFVs . Is there any specific protocol?

Great video, especially the view of the flooded area because too much water was used. Brilliant!

Very informative

Watched a fire crew extuingish a tesla model S 7 times in total a few months ago. Thing kept reigniting. Was cool to watch. Thing bounced off 2 utility poles at over 100mph and landed under some trees.

I think the best way to control it at the moment is, as you say, to let it burn, BUT, have something like a fire blanket to place between the burning vehicle and anything flammable in the vicinity, as you would with a temporary metal fence, slide it alongside the vehicle to protect/minimise the chance of combustion of near objects, keep a heavy mist on it until the thermal runaway is complete.

Consider subscribing to my channel to stay up-to-date on the latest information.

What about a port located on each quadrant of the vehicle that is a channel directly into the battery box? Is there a chemical that you can be contained in a pressurised container that can be blown (Like the Fire bottles on aircraft) that can be popped or activated by a fire department, sensors or ??? Is there any other ways to neutralize the chemical reaction taking place?

This is where the intersection of land based versus marine firefighting have an issue. Without any strategy to fight these fires on board, you can lose the entire vessel.

Have you ever wondered exactly what is a "carbon footprint"? The best example of a carbon footprint is the vehicle size black spot left on the ground after your E-car burns its tires off the wheels.

I wonder if it would be useful if the manufacturer were to build the battery box with channels for fire suppression? The fire department could connect the hose to an access port on the side of the vehicle and pump water directly into the battery box. Maybe also add some plugs on the bottom of the battery box that would blow out when the high pressure water were pumped in so that the water could flow through all chambers. Maybe this wouldn't completely stop the reaction but it could give time for a tow truck to hook up and drag the vehicle to an isolated area where it could be allowed to burn itself out.

What if every battery pack would be fitted with unified hose fitting dedicated for cooling in these situations?

Could you use met metx the same as putting out a magnesium fire

Could a fire proof car size shipping container be used? Where the car be dragged in . By a cable and doors closed. Water added to cool the car like sinking it in a pool. After car finishes burning. Water drained ready for disposal using container for safe transport.

The way they deal with it in Finland is crane truck and container filled up with water and good old fashioned waiting, they pick up the car and dunk it in to container filled up with water. Might add that this isn't a bullet proof method as was in the news a few weeks back where a battery pack ignited again even after several days of dunking.

I heard rumors that some fds are pulling them into shipping containers and flooding the container. Is this true or possible?

This needs to be regulated. Maybe an access port for fire extinguishing equipment.

What about gaining access to the coolant loop? Seems that runs through the whole battery box, specifically designed to carry fluids.

Regarding the Tesla 4680 structural pack (possibly earlier packs?). As I understand these cells. . The cells are essentially individually isolated in the injected foam (there is a liquid cooling ribbon between rows) . Each cylindrical cell has a fail point built into the base of the cell. What normally causes a fire to spread is the exothermic reaction between the single burning cell and those adjacent to it. When those cells get too hot, they fail, that's the chain reaction. . So, in this pack, the theory is, a cell suffers a catastrophic failure. The reaction starts. The cell casing fails at the base. This produces a jet of hot gas which burns through the bottom case of the pack, exhausting the material. . This, together with the foam surrounding the cells prevents sufficient heat build up in the surrounding cells to cause failure in those cells. . The damage is confined to one cell and the bottom casing of the pack. .

Manufacturers should be required to have some type of fire fighting attachment that could be coupled to (much like the charger plug) that can neutralize the battery pack.

I know of several wrecker companies in my area that keep a roll off dumpsters full of water on their property and will place an EV in them no mater how badly damaged or not they are. Not sure how they sort that out with the insurance companies but thats what they do.

I remember a few years ago in the very infancy of EVs, there was a kind of heat proof expanding foam that you would spray all around the car. This would NOT put the fire out, but to contain the fire/heat and direct heat in a way set by the firefighters depending on the situation. Later, when cool the foam could be broken up and removed. This is far from a perfect system, but seeing as how the damage that can occur from an EV fire, the ability to contain the fire has got to be worth following. It's not about saving the car... Once the fire has started that car is gone, it is about saving the area around it. This is a MAJOR issue in parking garages and underground structures or anything like that.

what happens if you use liquid nitrogen? will that not cool it down fast?

In Europe Renault is trying an access panel to the internals of the batteries that would melt away in the event of a thermal runaway, in order to enable the fire fighters to dump water inside the battery pack.

As a retired FF water and direct contact is a electrocution hazardous mixture. Is that also with the high voltage of Electric vehicle's?

Very cool video. Battery fires are a funny beast, they're barely 'fire' at that point. They are a thermal runaway event where stored energy is released as heat. They're emitting extremely high temperature exhaust gasses that combust everything else they touch, but as you say, no oxygen required. The magic ticket is if you can get thermal access to cool the battery...It won't happen, but: as much as it would be admitting any danger - I'd love to see manufacturers including external access to the battery thermal management system. Battery is multiple cells. If one cell cooks off, it releases a bunch of energy. That thermal energy causes the next cell neighbor(s) in the line to fail short and start electrically releasing their charge as heat as well, and on and on. The amount of energy overwhelms the built in cooling circuits pretty quickly, as they are only designed to remove a few kw of energy from the total battery area. If there was a hookup, say near the charge port where the coolant lines could be pressurized with a fire suppression system: battery cooling specifically - I bet the majority of thermal runaway events could be prevented or quickly shut down. Use the resources already manufactured into the car. (aside: To justify access to the cooling system - double duty as the charging station could use to regulate battery temperature by integrating a bigger cooler for day to day operations - the fast charger cables are already watercooled. A charging battery is 90-95% efficient, so charging at 250kw is actually rejecting ~25kW of heat into the cooling loop. Most charging is limited by how much heat the tiny 'efficient' car radiator can reject. If this were an external hookup, the car could charge much faster, and firefighters could have access to dump lots of high pressure cooling water right at the problem.)

Would it be possible to have vehicle manufacturers create a connection point that would allow fire companies to attach into the battery cooling system? Maybe allowing you to pump in a "poison pill" that "freezes" a lithium ion runaway? I'm no chemist, nor am I an engineer, but it seems like the cooling system would be an ideal place to create a system that when over-pressurized would safely rupture, allowing the "poison pill" to reach the battery box?

it'd be nice to see a standard for battery packs with pieracable zones. a 2" disk in blue or something physical showing the location where you can use a sharp nozzle to pierce in safely and flood the pack effectively. it would be a modern miracle if the NFPA and SAE got together on this.

When gas fueled vehicles first came out was the fire fighting equipment at that time up to the challenge?

Our local fire department started to experiment with picking it up with a crane and putting it in a big tank, fully submerging it in water. After that just leaving it submerged for 48-72h. Crude but they said it could be effective

Whilst cars with LPG tanks are not permitted in the Channel tunnel (cars/trucks/busses taken between England and France on a train) they do allow electric vehicles... until one combusts and people are killed I suppose.

Rather difficult but imagine Wiley Coyote style could tow it into a quick assembly tank. Would need a hitch on the vehicle and a way to get a tow line on the hitch. Otherwise just build a barrier around the vehicle and wait until fire burns itself out. Big air filters would be nice to reduce toxic smoke. Quite a predicament.

If the strategy is to let the EV burn out, which may happen within 1-2 hours, would using a fire blanket hinder this process and increase the time needed for the battery to burn out? For example, could you use the blanket immediately after arriving on scene, in order to limit flame and gases, while still allowing the burn to occur and not drag out the process?

Is there anything from built-in airline cargo extinguishing technology that could be built into EV batteries. Would liquid nitrogen in reasonable quantities reduce the temperature quickly? Is there any adaptation of the halon gas methods used in computer centers that would work if they could neutralize or separate the burning chemicals?

If the most pragmatic action, just now, is to let it burn out then I guess steps to speed up that process may be desirable. How about using thermite devices to burn into, and probably through, the battery-box?

Best way to minimize damages is system which automaticly drop battery to ground and vehicle move away. After this, only battery burn and it is easy to reach. In charging lot, separator walls between vehicles.

The piercing method may also be a concern if you are pumping liquid water into a hermetically sealed box that is then turning into steam. The colloquial term is "bomb". Id hope the fire punched a "pressure release hole" large enough to vent the steam but if I was a firefighter I wouldnt want to have to hope.

Also, are they available and are they affordable?

What if one of these vehicles is on a car ferry... or int the UK/France Eurotunnel.... what then?

Need a bottomless connex box to put rollover the burning vehicle. Then add halon, co2, or water?

I agree the best approach is to let them burn themselves out. The main objective of the emergency response team is to protect people and assets in the vicinity. The solution to this would be a heavy vehicle with a car size box on the back or front, an electromagnetic arm can drag the burning vehicle into the box with the operator in the pressurised cab with very effective air filters. Once the vehicle is in the box, doors close and seal, the box is vented out the top and fumes are filtered. The burning vehicle is then transported to a landfill burial site where it is pushed into a hole and a bulldozer pushes the dirt over the top. It is left there to burn out. When the fire is over and cooled, the vehicle is excavated and what remains can be recycled and the hole is ready for the next one. Larger vehicles will need larger equipment. Filtration technology will need to be developed, until this is effective, there will need to be pre-determined routes to the burial sites to minimise public exposure to toxic fumes. As EV’s develop, batteries will be less susceptible to catching fire.

This is a very good presentation and I agree with the end recommendation. But fire by definition requires oxygen. Thermal runaway is an exothermic reaction that does not require oxygen. The flaming coming from the flammable off gas of the battery thermal runaway. Think of each battery cell as a separate fuel load.

Yup, the puncture nozzle is the answer . You have water to cool down the recently made puncture.

This is what I've been talkin about one of these vehicles can easily burn a whole apartment complex down.

The Renault Megane EV do have a function called "Fireman Access". It allow fire fighters to send water directly inside the battery. I think I heard they are pushing for this to become a standard on all EV.

Agree with "let them burn" to some extent. If in a parking garage use the blanket and an idea from Asia where they have way more EV's. Fire company arrives, puts blanket over burning vehicle. There is a "collapsible kiddie pool" that you surround the vehicle with and fill with water. Fire companies in Korea are using it. Assume, like the blankets, it "sort of works" by cooling the fire down. Regardless, vehicle must sit until it is safe to move....which could be a long time. I have seen forklifts dump smoldering EV's into the local river, etc. What works: Blankets diminish the fire/lower the temp....but don't put it out. Immersing in water works, you have to leave it in the water for 2 or 3 days. Chuck it into the ocean....but you can't safely transport it to the ocean . Flat bed with a kiddie pool on the back....sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. It is a Temperature game....blanket is proven to lower temp and immersing in water is proven to lower temp better than blanket. One fire captain got a claw, dug a hole in front of burning EV, filled with water and shoved it in. This won't work in the Calahan tunnel will it? Best idea is, don't commit to "that will never work." If they figure out the kiddie pool thing, the guys at the station could use for the kids on family days.

How about if the hybrid or electric vehicles body was built with a flood tube? What I mean is something similar to the concept of a filler neck going down to the fuel tank on a gasoline car,,, on a vehicle with a battery pack build a fire hose ready tube going down to the battery pack so that the pack can get flooded with water?

The latest Tesla cars have the batteries in a structural pack where the bottom of the case is made from aluminium. In the case of thermal runaway, the aluminium melts and the battery cells drop to the ground.

Thank you for the hard truth about EV fires. Must say that the energetic event at 5:20 is impressive, and a reminder how dangerous they can be.

hi I was hoping you could try to answer a more basic fire fighting question for me if not soorry to bother you as you probably know know the smoke alarm manf's recommend photo electric for smoldering fires well I tried to ask a fire protection engineer about an idea he had and we'll the report her wrote was called experimental use of co alarm s for smoldering fires and thought s please thank you his ideas was that it's good to have co alarm s in addition to photo electric alarms I did actually find 2 cases where it said a co alarm provided warning during a smoldering fire scenarios any ideas please thank you I guess it could not hurt to have both alarms if have spare cash and hope for the best ? Ideas please thank you

I wonder what insurance companies say about parking one of these damned things in your garage!

The problem should be solved by the the car companies. Every separate battery compartment should have a one way fire extinguisher nozzle and all come together to a few one way nozzles at the outside of the car also all connected together so it can be reached were the fire is the lowest. Car companies put a lot of effort and money making better batteries, then they should also put effort to find out if they could find a safety substance that would react with the gas inside the Li-ion battery and could be injected through these nozzles to put out a Li-ion fire. It is just a matter of time that the insurance on an electric car will go through the roof so these companies should have a lot of combind interrest in solving this problem.

Saw a video from Volvo that used 'brine water ( salty) . The water was cooled to approx' -27 degrees and used to remove as much of the heat as possible. This was in reply to the car carrier fire last year . Seemed to work better than ordinary water .

I would say at some point there will have to be a global standard on how to build Li batts with a built in intervention process to address the current problem. How long were headlights, brake shoes etc manufactured and sold before DOT specs became the legal requirement? This was a really informative vid, thank you!

just one remark what about battery pack REIGNITING after the EV fire have been extinguished. I have seen cases in the news about EV's reigniting 2 to 3 days after the fire has been put out on that vehicle and having to call back the fire department to extinguish that SAME electric vehicle AGAIN at another location to wait for the insurance appraiser, generally on a parking spot at a car shop or in a warehouse. I think you are right about letting those EV's completely burn down till ALL battery cells have no more electrical energy stored in them, so preventing eventual reignition of that vehicle !

The thousands of gallons of water are not to extinguish the fire, it’s to wash away the burning ashes and extinguish them so the fire doesn’t spread while they wait for it to burn out.

Imagine a pile up in 96 in the winter and one of these electric cars catch fire and cause a chain reaction... just let em burn? All the people stuck inside their cars roasting alive, no way to put out the fires, no help... Yep, lets all go out and buy electric cars.

LFP, LMFP and sodium-ion batteries are coming. These are all far less likely to suffer a thermal runaway event, although I don't know if they would be any easier to extinguish. What studies have been done on using liquid nitrogen to rapidly cool the fire off enough to slow or stop the reaction?

Best option is used on battery powered mining machines. They have a cooling circuit integrated on the battery with a connector on the outside, like the charging port. When they have a thermal runnaway they connect the cooling hose and flood the battery from the very inside of it. They can even have a closed loop if not rupture occurs wich is even better.

Thank you for sharing this information, To further the conversation, the "box" will melt, it is a thin sheet of metal, quite possibly prior to the arrival of the first unit. Another talking point, water does not address the gases (HF) that result from EV fires (great talking point associated with fire blankets). I have been looking at encapsulator technology (NFPA18A) and the research looks promising, I have yet to find any research that shows encapsulator technology is ineffective (again, promising). I would offer that the tactic of letting the fire fire burn is a viable tactic if no exposures are present. Additionally, this would not be advisable in an enclosed area, e.g., residential garage, parking structure, etc. As with any hazardous situation, full PPE is required, and developing and maintaining (effective) situational awareness throughout the duration of the incident is paramount to reaching a safe outcome.

I'm never going to travel in one after seeing how bad they go up in flames & the heat given off. Fook that

Is there a way to rapidly discharge the battery into another heat sink? A heat sink could be in the form of a large capacity electric water heater immersed inside of the tank of a water truck. There could be some massive accessible contacts at several standard locations on the vehicle. The fire fighters would hook up the vehicle to a positive and negative contact. Then they could close the circuit through the massive resistor. That energy would then be discharged into the liquid water as heat until it was discharged. The fire/exothermic chemical reaction would then cool and self extinguish.

I would say that perhaps the best way is to allow a controlled burn. There are products that don't burn that are used for furnessess They can take intense flame without burning. So I've wondered why these things are not used to control the battery fire so it doesn't spread, a fire proof valve could be fitted so any build up gas could be vented to a controlled area. So if a scooter set fire it could be wrapped with the blanket and direct the vent to a safe zone, same with a car but a car or larger vehicle could have the cover pulled under the vehicle and over the vehicle in two parts which interlock automatically. The demo of the blanket you showed just needed a method to control the gas pressure so it could be directed to a safe localised zone. For example, a charging car caches fire, the blanket is thrown over and under it, and it just burns, the vents let the gasses release into the air the smoke could be reduced with water to keep it down with a sprinkler type mist. So it makes more sense just to let it burn but to control the burn, I would have thought.

I recently heard of a system using brine as a means of extingushing ev battery fires. Would be interested to hear your thoughts.

Years ago we used halon extinguishers before they got banned, they would chemically disrupt the fire very efficiently rather than remove a piece of the fire triangle. I wonder how they would react with a battery fire? Has anyone tried?

Why can we not treat lithium ion fires like we do a gas tank fire? Once the fire has reached the gas tank there is no stopping it there is no putting it out we just accept it is what it is. Maybe we just treat battery fire the same way, there is no extinguisher there is no system that can put it out.

In Vienna, firefighters had to bring a big container of water, and drain the burning car to suffocate the battery.

I hear a lot about salt battery and they say they are cheaper and don't burn is that correct. Next question is why they haven't been used.

I was on Submarines for 22+ years and battery fires or Shorts before the battery breakers were the worst case scenario and usually lead to the ships Decommission. Battery fires are first a Electrical fire, the first thing you need to do on a electrical fire is turn off the Electron movement impossible with a cell short and the cells being placed tightly together which causes the runaway then you have other items around the fire become involved meaning multiple types of fire at the same time and location each needing a more specific extinguishing agent (which don’t alway work together. EV’s are a Idea without a plan or proper safety testing, even your toaster gets safety tested which is the reason for warnings like don’t use it in the Bathtub 😂.

If a battery is burning, it is likely that the burning cells have burnt holes into the cooling jacket. I'd tap the cooling system to inject water directly into the battery pack through existing pipes. Two caveats being that 1) you need to know which pipe to tap into and 2) the cooling system going to the battery must still be otherwise intact, which may no longer be the case if the fire has been burning under there long enough to melt the battery's external hookups. The first problem could be solved by implementing a standard for external coolant connections, the second would require that external connections up to the coolant injection port(s) and bulk distribution within the battery pack be fire-resistant.

LION cells are like rocket fuel. They contain oxidizer. I agree with your recommendation to let it burn out. I was part of team that designed a LION pack for an EV. If they do go out, they can sometimes reignite hours or days later. If you have an EV parked in your garage, you should get a heat detector alarm and connect it to your home fire alarm system.

the problem with a lithium battery fire is that it started from internal damage from overheating inside the battery cell, this causes a short which gets very hot instantly and causes the fire, the only way to stop the fire is to remove all of the charge/voltage from that cell, which is easier said than done.

I'm still wondering about crane and dunk tank method, the car is a gonner no matter what. I think like they did in Germany I thinkit was they put the car in container of water, much easier to keep cooler water to the battery. I'm not sure if a top could be made where gasses are filtered or even burnt off in a controlled manor...