If Gondor falls, then it's all over anyway. And without Aragorn, the line of Kings shall not return to Minas Tirith anyway. Saruman would take pleasure in the knowledge that even though he was defeated in the end, at least in this scenario, that he had doomed Gondor anyway. One way or another. Killing Aragorn at Helm's Deep would seal Gondor's fate even if it won the war and even if Sauron was defeated. Queen Eowyn would go to Gondor's aid, though she would not return. Gandalf would likely be slain at Minas Tirith, as Eowyn perished on the Pelennor Fields. Faramir, likely already slain at Osgiliath and besides, at Minas Tirith even if he does go to the Houses of Healing. Thranduil will fight desperately in Mirkwood, though as news does _not_ come to the Easterling legions outside Erebor, of the defeat of Sauron in the South, then Erebor and all it's people and the remaining Men of Dale along with them, will perish. Sauron would take Erebor around the same time as taking Minas Tirith, though still fail to fully defeat both Lorien and Northern Mirkwood (Thranduil) Galadriel would counter attack the Orcs of Dol Guldur and destroy it with Thranduil's support, though still then have to fight the Easterling armies pouring down from Erebor. They'd also outflank the Elves at the Carrock, and potentially even threaten Rivendell (especially if the Orcs of Gundabad chose this specific moment to use the chaos to assault Imladris, where Saruman would ironically be held captive) Elrond would face a siege by Easterling scouting vanguards and Gundabad Orcs, even as news of Queen Eowyn's tragic death reached Rohan. The remaining few thousand yeomanry and guardsman whom did not ride to war, would stand with the Ents and any Elves in the region, though and already shattered Edoras would not be able to hold against the armies of Mordor crossing the Anduin. Sauron would unleash many of his reserves and roll up the map. Assuming he had not perished on the Pelennor Fields (though he still may have, to Eowyn and Merry), the Witch-king would lay waste to Gondor and Rohan. But as his demise was foretold, I'm fine with her and Merry bringing him down anyway, even in this scenario, and so command passing to Khamul the Easterling (second greatest of the Nine) The Haradrim and Corsairs would ravage the coast and speed up the downfall of Gondor. The lack of the Army of the Dead would mean the Corsairs would destroy Pelargir and then move onto to reinforce the Morgul Host as planned. Minas Tirith wouldn't stand a chance. Especially as the Grey Host would now be in Imladris under siege by Orcs and Easterlings, alongside the Elves there, desperately trying to shield Eriador. No Grey Company on the Pelennor. No Army of the Dead at Pelargir. The Knights of Dol Amroth and Prince Imrahil, slain in battle. Any remaining Knights of the Silver Swan, slain at Dol Amroth itself. The rest of Gondor rolled up as an unstoppable horde simply overruns them across the map. Gondor is lost. Denethor dies with Faramir even had he escaped Osgiliath at all. Rohan is attacked by a large Orc army and falls, though the Ents cause heavy Orc losses in a fighting retreat to Fangorn Forest. Lorien holds but the Elves have to abandon Mirkwood as the sheer number of evil forces flooding into the forests becomes too much. If Thranduil can survive to join the Lorien Elves in Lorien, is unclear, but although Dol Guldur would now be gone, they'd still struggle to stop major devastation. Lorien repelled three Mordor assaults, but in this timeline, a fourth would be far deadlier with combined Orc and Easterling legions setting fire to much bigger swathes of Lorien. Elven losses would become an attritional matter as Sauron wore away at them. They could not hold out for much longer, however powerful Galadriel was. She would become the Lady of the Ashes, even if none could dislodge her personally from that place. Most of her people would perish so it becomes a moot point. They aren't infinite in numbers. Even if Mordor makes a dozen failed assaults on Lorien, the attrition will slowly defeat them on a faction level. By then, Galadriel would likely evacuate to Imladris, with what remained of her people, across the Misty Mountains; harried all the way by Goblins and worse. Sauron would now have the ring Narya, taken from Gandalf's body by the Nazgul in one idea. The envelopment of Rohan from Enedwaith and Anorien would begin, with potential Easterling legions also joining in from a third direction. Haradrim and Variags of Khand would run riot in Gondor and Rohan too. Any surviving Dunlendings would raid Eriador and help kill the last of the Ents with the Mordor armies. Once Eriador is isolated with the fall of Erebor, Mirkwood, Lorien, Rohan and Gondor, it's got no chance. Even if Lorien still stands, large forces could separately bypass Lorien anyway, while it remained under siege. Bree would burn, the Dunedain would be forced to divert rangers to try and vainly hold off raiding parties away from the Shire. The Elves of Lindon (aka Mithlond) under Cirdan, would try and render assistance to the Shire, but be defeated being far too weak numerically. Elrond would have his remaining folk evacuate to Mithlond and potentially execute Saruman personally. However, there is a chance that he'd just leave him in his cell. Even if Thranduil, Celeborn and Galadriel still fought on in Lorien, they'd likely die there eventually. The Grey Company will be wiped out between fighting around Imladris and the Shire, completely failing to defend Bree from a very large Mordor assault that would signify the end game of Sauron's war. Elrond would fight his way clear to Mithlond with Glorfindel, and the last Elves of Eriador would try and maintain a perimeter around Mithlond/the Grey Havens, desperately trying to keep the evacuation options open to the Elves. Yet when men, dwarves and hobbits ask to be evacuated, the Elves refuse them, as they are not allowed normally to enter the Undying Lands that way if ever. This would cause tension and maybe even in-fighting between the desperate remnants of the free peoples, with men, dwarves and even perhaps some desperate hobbits trying to commandeer Elven ships and being forced to fight and kill Elves to do so. It would be a disaster. The Shire would be destroyed, as would be anything else in Eriador. Even were Glorfindel to sacrifice himself at Imladris to buy more time for the other Elves to escape, with an honour guard around him also sacrificing themselves in a last stand, they will all eventually die, even if stood atop a mountain of Orc and Easterling corpses. The Giant Eagles would be shot down by Easterling and Orc archers, as they moved through the Carrock and overran the entire region of the Vales of the Anduin. Even if some escaped to Rivendell, or Mithlond, they'd have no choice but to leave. The Nazgul would be eventually coming for them on Fell Beassts, too. All hope would be lost.... BUT THEN _boom_ Frodo and Sam destroy the One Ring, end (lol) Now, I jest, as I don't think so. Most likely, events would happen very differently. With no Battle of the Morannon, and a lot of reserves still swarming around Mount Doom, chances are round about now it's game over for Frodo and Sam. The One Ring, finally returned to Sauron whom will also have Narya now (and soon Nenya and Vilya too) Sure, it can be written to have Frodo be the SBD killer from out of the blue who just destroys Sauron even in his moment of victory...but by then, what victory even is that? Middle Earth is still FUBAR. Nobody is coming to save Frodo and Sam. They'll just die slowly on the slopes of Mount Doom. Gollum is finally dead, yes, but without Gandalf and the Eagles, so will Frodo and Sam be. And if Frodo _is captured_ on the Plains of Gorgoroth, then Sauron is restored to maximum power with the One Ring and that is the end of that. Even without that happening, in the dread scenario the armies of Mordor etc will still win anyway. The role of Aragorn and Eomer was vital after Pelennor, in distracting Sauron. Beyond that, there'd be no wars against the Haradrim and Easterlings either, post-War of the Ring, thus encouraging them to send more armies into the West, especially now that they know Sauron has won the war anyway. Sauron does become Lord of Middle-Earth. King of the Ashes and leader of the Orcs. At this point, I think the Valar and Maiar would be like, 'you know what Sauron, F you' and come in an stomp him anyway. Eönwë, hell, even Tulkas and Manwë, coming after him.

This alternative history is a lot more fascinating than I expected

Farmer Maggot stands up on a mountain of orc corpses and laughs

The assault on the Black Gate wouldn't happen in either scenario making it nearly impossible for Frodo and Sam to bypass Morder's reserve army resulting in game over and Sauron would possibly be more vigilant in watching his lands.

If Saruman had more time he would have been a dark lord with more military might then Sauron. Sauron's army was much bigger but it took him millennia to build it up but Sauron built up something could match Rohan's in open battle (thus the retreat to helms deep) in a few months. With time he could turn the shire in the breadbasket that could support 6 figure armies and have strip mined dunland for unlimited wood, metal, stone and whatever. Using his voice and Grima Wormtongue he'll be able to keep it secret until its too late. The most dangerous part about him is that he was just about the only person on middle earth developing new technology. He made the black powder, built great mills and all sorts of industry, also bred some Uruks that match Saurons lots. He was a one maiar industrial revolution. This would multiply his resources in all areas. Obviously he'd experiment black powder, figure out a way to direct the force and use it at range. Cannons will probably be developed but rockets may well come sooner, after all fireworks already exist. An army of 100 000s of uruks with gunpowder weapons, tip top logistics, all of radagasts now evilified crows giving excellent intelligence. Even Sauron would fear such a force. The ring could changed things, if Suaron got it soon enough he'll mop up Saruman with the rest of middle earth but if it take to long even that might not be enough. After all the ring didn't give him victory at the end of the third age or when he was captured by the numoreans. If he got the ring he'll eventually figure out he can't use it and have to have it destroyed.

Excellent video, you really went in depth on this one brother

Aragon and the others could have escaped in the tunnels with the civilians and still taken part in later parts of the story

Very interesting. I think that the second scenario could have made easier for Frodo and Sam, as where there would be no battle at the Black Gate, IF Minas Tirith had fallen, Mordor's reserve armies would be on the march to aid in the full on invasion of Gondor and Rohan. It is the first scenario that would be the real challenge for Frodo and Sam, as all of Mordor's armies would be there for them to get past.

In the first scenario I could see Not only Gondor marching on Saruman, But also The wood elves for revenge due to Legolas dying, Elrond due to the sorrow of his daughter and the fact he lost a son in all but blood, And The Erebor dwarves as well for the death of Gimli maybe.

What is Saurons defence strategy for Orodruin? It seems like once you make it past the Ephel Duath you're OK really, Orcs mostly just pass through Gorgoroth, nothing can live their long term (which means you need to be well supplied). I guess also the temptation to bugger off with the ring and live in a cave is also pretty good defence.

Great one man

Great video live these what is awesome channel keep it up

Feel sad for Frodo And Sam who certainly would have perished without Gandalf & the eagles.

I personally like the scenario that Native Haradrim & Easterlings rise up and cast the Númenoreans back into the sea.

Well you've just given me a great idea for a The One Ring RPG setting!

All of this scenarios help to point out how stupid was for Aragorn to get caught in a siege with all the odds against it. I know he's a hero and honor and all demands it but from a strategic perspective it's a gamble to put your king and the only hope for the free people's in a death trap. In the history of Europe there are many of this wacky scenarios when a lucky arrow decapitates the army and the kingdom descends into anarchy.

Great video

If Gandalf decided to call it quits after Sauron was gone with his job done, and we had the Free for All scenario - I do see Saruman having quite decent odds of using his voice (and whatever other power he mighta had left) plus what was left of his army trapped in Helms Deep surrounded by revenge hungry, and by all accounts rather miffed foliage, to get some sort of scenario besides victory. If his win condition was to get the One ring, then I suspect Saruman might have began to focus his efforts on trying to forge something similar to it. This would be aided by him having access to all the books and knowledge that didn't get burned up or destroyed by the end of the FFA scenario. Especially if he managed to somehow score Mordor as his new HQ he would be in a pretty good position to begin deepening his studies of ring lore, because there are probably plenty of leftover dark relics and artifacts to be dug up from Sauron collapsed fortress along with other dark arcane knowledge to give him a boost in the arcane department. All in all, if we go with Saruman winning the FFA scenario, I think we could be looking at a new Dark lord in the making. One far weaker than Sauron to be sure, but still an immortal entity (even if clad in the form of an old man) with access to mystical dark powers from days long gone, an unhealthy obsession (that could do with some psychological intervention) pertaining to magical rings, one heck of a grumpy, venomous disposition, and lots of dark minions to throw around. Oh, and a very productive ork force, which I am sure will be just dandy at keeping things dominated with an iron grip...provided of course there isn't another uprising of angry bushes, or trees that ent very impressed with what was going on. Though this time, I am sure Saruman would have learned a thing or two from what happened at Isengard, and just invested in a tree proof defense grid that makes liberal application of fire to sort the mess out. I am sure he would out of spite throw together a weenie roast for that ever-increasing ork force on the remains of those meddlesome trees too after they were all burnt up.

Ty for the video 🙃

To be honest, in the FFA where Sauron does get nuked (b/c it is more interesting) we have a few things to think about. Firstly, Gandalf is still kicking around in Rohan somewhere. He can't really get down to Gondor to help the Amrothians hold on, but he can help Eowyn and Treebeard get rid of Saruman's army (or at least make it useless by putting a few more very patient Hurons at the top of the hills) and then gather the 6,000 or so riders to take south. (less b/c many have been killed, but more b/c 4,000 are not longer sitting around guarding Rohan. Thanks Galadriel) Saruman at this points has still parleyed with Gandalf (and Eowyn maybe) and is still cast out of the Istari and loses his staff. Now we get the army of Rohan + Grey Company (assuming Halbarad takes up the chieftainship of the Dunedain, given he is noted as a kinsman of Aragorn) moving to Minas Tirith. That is really thier only option, and it is a bad one. Without a Heir of Isildur, you aren't going under Dwimorberg, and going through Westmarch still takes you on a very long and not so friendly route. But Minas Tirith is still a amazing fortress, even if blasted and captured, and can very well be held by some leftover captain of Sauron for longer than the Rohirrim want. By this point though the Corsairs and Haradrim are fighting to a standstill with the remaining Gondorians along the Gilrain or Hills of Tarnost, so there isn't really much the Rohirrim can do to link up with Elphir or whoever of his siblings is still alive. This isn't really a great scenario, and likely ends with a shattered Gondor picking up its pieces and reestablishing itself in Dol Amroth with Elphir as the new steward and Prince, (he is the highest ranking lord around, and restated to the stewards through Finduilas) Eowyn rulling Rohan, which paradoxically, is likey the strongest nation left in the area, and Minas Tirith, Anorien, Lossarnach, and maybe even Pelargir a desolate no mans land like Ithilien. Ithilien itself without any Rangers or Osgiliath will become part of Harad or rulled by orcs/captains of Sauron setting up in Minas Morgul. The rangers would return to the North to resume their duties, as they don't have the ability to set anyone on the throne, and likely fade away slowly. The elves would still depart, but what would remain is a shattered wreak, with the Easterlings and Southrons the strongest powers, and Rohan and Gondor saved only to soon fight another decade long conflict as these new powers try to expand westward again. That age of men would be a darker time. Also, Dale/Erebor might actually do quite well. Assuming the Easterlings rout at Sauron's fall like in the real world, they will be able to rebuild a bit for a few years, and maybe fill the power vaccum in the North now that the elves are departing and the Orcs are deminished.

The scenario where both Gondor and Mordor fall would make an interesting Total War mod. Unfortunately, it likely wouldn't happen as Gondor falling means no distraction action at the Black Gate which means Frodo and Sam are very likely to be captured. (Not impossible they would have thought of the disguise option and crept through to Mount Doom that way though despite all the orcs that would be camped out on Mordor's plains.)

@8:16 I know he said "desertations" but at first I heard "dissertations", which I find hilarious. I'm just imagining a bunch of orcs writing essays about the best ways to consume man-flesh.

If Minas Tirith falls, southern forces manage to defeat corsairs, Pelargir would possibly become gondors capital again..

In the second scenario I think the Valar might end up sending more wizards to middle earth to give galdalf the aid he would need

Great video bro, i think Evil would ultimately would win... they were just outnumberd... low Gondor and low Rohan couldnt fight Orcs, Haradrim, Corsairs, Easterlings... u only forgot the Dunlandings scenario... even if Isengard had fallen, Saruman would use his voice to gather Dunlandings...still troublesome

I think another important thing to consider is it was gandalf who told treebeard to stay and watch saruman. Without, treebeard could continue to wage war against the forces of evil. And there is the elves who have held the forces at bay. I do think unfortunately the dwarfs under the rule of dain will fall. But the other dwarf lords would rally and push back. I think it would be a more epic war of the last alliance.

Aragorn wouldn't die. He would take the "road that leads in the mountains".

It might be a better premise for a Mount and Blade mod than the canonical War of the Ring

No videos of how the battle would've turned out of legolas managed to take out the orc with the torch?

Saruman is pretty much out regardless. Isengard is destroyed and his army is trapped at Helm's Deep. Ents are massively patient and will wait until the end of time to gain their revenge on the orcs at Helm's Deep so they ain't leaving. In a week's time Queen Eowyn (will have sent Elfhelm with several thousand troops to reinforce Earkenbrand and Saruman's Army will be neutralized, destined to sit out the war at Helm's Deep. It is possible Gandalf could get Treebeard to assist in assaulting Helm's Deep sending in the Huorns for "cleanup duty" on the orcs within.

You made a great video with excellent points. But if I were to tell you the truth, I think in the end Sauron will be in deep trouble. Eventually, the Valar would their forces and there will be a War of Wrath 2.0. Or at least that is my opinion.

2:53 she stayed behind? Is that a part of the book that the city wasn't evacuated? Eowyn went to Helm's Deep didn't she?

Did Sarumans troops actually know about the danger the forest, that suddenly grew in front of Helms Deep, posed to them? If not, would they just try to march back as soon as they finished murdering everyone inside the cave and get destroyed themselves? In that scenario Gandalf would likely still confront Saruman, Pipin would probably still touch the Palantir, Gondor would still be besieged and the Rohirim would still show up. But without Aragon bringing reinforcements it is likely the siege would go a lot worse for Gondor.

If Sauron regained the ring, things would still not be as bad as you might think. There was an excellent video recently, though I couldn't find it quickly. Gandalf would find refuge at Tom Bombadil who would keep his lands safe from Sauron's dominion, and the Valar would come over to help defeat Sauron after Aragorn, rescued by the Eagles from the Black Gate, entreated them to do so. Celebrimbor would destroy the rings of power and Sauron would be sent back into the void. This is how it was sung so it must happen one way or another.

Horse Ferrari: brilliant term for Shadowfax.

The odds don't necessarily get better for Frodo. Part of the reason he was able to get up Cirith Ungol and across Mordor, apart from Smeagol and the orc armor, was because the army at Minas Morgal was sent to Gondor to attack and it went right past Frodo, Sam, and Gollum. Also, without a likely challenge at the black gate, Frodo is far more likely to be seized before he even makes it to Mt. Doom. And the same goes for Gollum, whom the orcs were after. So if either one is seized, Sauron wins, even if Frodo makes it to Mt. Doom.

One other ingredient to stir in the pot, were Isengard's army to defeat Theoden and Aragorn at Helm's Deep: with Aragorn dead, there would be no heir of Isildur to call the King of Dead and his host to fulfil their oath by repulsing the landing of the Umbar corsairs at Pelargir. The strength of the army of Mordor besieging Minas Tirith would be at its height, making a victory more likely.

I think Saruman surviving all of this could very easily turn into a 3rd Dark Lord and yes weaker than Morgoth a d Sauron, But he and Gandalf are still very much some of the most powerful beings on Middle earth.

What if Húrin was killed and Huor captured?

Time of the Warlords of Middle-earth

Darth Gandalf. What if Sauron turned Aragon, Legolas and Boromir into Nazgul?

Gandalf's horse Feeraree? I thought it was Shadowfax!😮🤓😎✌🏻

yeah interesting for sure what if Saruman had a situational advantaged an ace in the hole still to exploit ?

If the morgul army delayed Frodo getting captured by the orcs after shelobs attack would have resulted in some big changes the nazgul could interrogate him learn of the intention to destroy the ring and set up guards at mount doom and look for sam

Next video: what if Tolkien wrote his stories in today’s world?

Wasn't it described somewhere that orcs basically killed themself in panic when Sauron died? So sauron domnion would just crumble with that too.

"whatever dark holes would house them"

I know this is old but I still think this a victory for the Free Peoples. Gandalf was in the better position to both act on the defeat of Sauron due to not being trapped in Orthanc and freedom of movement. The moment he realizes that Sauron is destroyed, Gandalf would be rallying the defenders of the West to wipe out the servants of Sauron while they collapse and begin infighting. Saruman is trapped in Isengard and he would eventually be able to talk his way out , but I still think that a version of the confrontation between himself and Gandalf would have taken place. The moment Gandalf realizes that the Ents have taken over Isengard, he would have probably beelined straight to Saruman and once again cast him out of the Istari and destroyed his staff. I think the Huorns would have pursued the Army of Isengard relentlessly and at the least chipped away at its strength which would have been at the same time that Rohirrim would have been gathering their own army too avenge the death of Theoden & Eomer. The short and sweet is that, in this chaotic environment where Sauron is defeated but the leadership of Gondor & Rohan destroyed, the war would have been Gandalf’s too lose

The shire becomes the next superpower. Somehow.

This probably won’t happen, but I would like Lindon and The Elves to just do a world conquest, and at the end, Galadriel and the last Noldor Finally become great kings, like Morgoth promised them in Valinor, before the First Age

I won't name names largely cause I can't remember but some other KZfaqr said basically nothing would change, Aragorn and the others would just sneak out, and things would progress the same. A total copout, this is much better. Also that one like this talked about the ents, but what if they didn't get involved?

The chaos scenario would definitely make a good HOI4 mod. Hell, it could be a sub-mod for the current LOTR mod.

What if Rohan went str8 to Gondor instead of going to helms deep ? Can u do a video on that Theory?

Can you do what if the orcs won the battle of the five armies

What if the hound Huan had killed Sauron at Tol-in-Gaurhoth. This is interesting because the whole Second and Third Ages would have entirely different histories. There are two paths one could take. Sauron is killed before Lúthien can stop him. He reembodies himself but can't take a fair form again. In the other scenario, he's destroyed. In each case, how does the history after the War of Wrath differ? I think it would be fun, though it might take two videos to explore each scenario.

Can you do what if Denethor and Théoden survived?

I can't see it going good for either the West or Saruman long term. He'd already just revealed himself as a double-crosser to Sauron.

What if Aragorn never let the dead army go

What if the Kingdom of Arnor had survived?

I’m surprised the god figure doesn’t come up more often. He going to win in the end period. We have seen him work through chance and subtle acts to guide history, but I think he could also work quite differently. Maybe he lets evil dominate Middle Earth just so he can completely annihilate them in a show of immense power. Regardless of how he chooses to do it, I don’t think evil winning is an option.

People focus on this guy, that guy... Gandalf and Sauron are the chess players. It doesn't matter if Aragorn becomes king unless Sauron is defeated in the process. So Saruman is partially right when he says "Gandalf does not hesitate to sacrifice those closest to him, those he professes to love". I'm not defending Saruman here but it's the hard truth. Gandalf couldn't care less whether Thorin and Aragorn became kings unless it served him defeating Sauron. He transcends all emotion and just uses these guys to defeat Sauron. Where was Gandalf when Smaug burned Esgaroth? He knew what would happen when the dwarves enter the mountain but he prioritized his useless exploit in Dol Guldur. Sauron made mistakes but so did Gandalf. In the end the wiser one won. Gandalf was just a touch better at strategy. Sauron focused on the big picture but forgot about the little things. Gandalf the Gray made some mistakes, mostly because of fear but all of that is gone with Gandalf the White. The War of the Ring was actually started by Gandalf, not Sauron. It was all a distraction for the destruction of the One Ring. When you look at it, Gandalf put a veil on Sauron's mind through Saruman. It turns out he never needed Saruman's counsel or anyone's at that matter. He risked with Saruman and it paid off in the end. Sauron might be the most powerful but Gandalf is the wisest. I don't see Sauron winning in any scenario.

The only thing I disagree is about the possibility of Eowyn becoming a queen and ruling by herself - that`s not how succession works in these societies. The surviving lords would decide a king between themselves and that one would probably marry her to cement his claim to the throne - and THAT would make her the queen.

What if the North had fallen during the War of the Ring?

what if bilbo refused to take part in the quest for erebor?

saruman did win at helms deep. then pippin and merry still had treebeard wreck his shit and retcon his victory.

What if Fingolfin survived?

I thought it was only 300 Rogan soldiers died at helms deep?

If the Ents had not attacked Isengård? And if Isengard won at Helm's Deep how would it have gone?

What if maedhros didn't give up his right to kingship?

seen the title and couldnt click hard enough!

ask chat gbt -4

Would Gandalf actually stay and help in the Free for All Scenario? Sauron's defeat was his purpose and in the original story when this was completed he didn't get involved in conflict again, saying it was up to the peoples of Middle Earth to deal with things. This by far though is the most fascinating scenario as it's really a toss up on who would come out on top!

*What if Isengard HAD won at Helm's deep?

Tom Bombadil wins. Tom Bombadil ALWAYS wins.

Tolkien was a brilliant author that started the genre. But I would have enjoyed a JRR Martin game of thrones set of plot twists. 😁