What Is The Best Beehive - Which Beehive System Is Best

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What Is The Best Beehive - Which Beehive System Is Best - Langstroth Versus National

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2 жыл бұрын

Which Beehive System Is Best - What Is The Best Beehive - Langstroth Versus National
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Пікірлер: 157

@jcs6347 2 жыл бұрын

The standard Langstroth Hive in the USA is a 10 frame hive and all the accessories, like Snellgrove boards are marketed for 10 frame hives only. Generally 8 frame hives are used by hobby guys like me. I work alone and retired, I can lift a 8 frame deep of honey, but not a 10 frame. Thanks for sharing

@BlackMountainHoney 2 жыл бұрын

Interesting to see the differences between 8 frame and 10 frame. I've managed to get a 10 frame as well and will run that this season

@EveyoneCallsMeTheDude Жыл бұрын

Older folks and folks with injuries like to use 8 frames because their a little lighter. And it’s hard to say ones more “standard” than the other as 8 frame hives has even around for over 150 years at this point.

@Parian101 2 жыл бұрын

Just a note that the Std size for Langstroth if 10 frame brood box, However for people who can't lift heavier boxes the 8 frame brood box was designed (Don't quote me on that one). The FlowHive have a slightly better quality brood frames than what I have got here in the UK. Though in my opinion the 8 Frame brood box are just right if you double brood them gives the chimney effect and they have plenty of space for stores and brood. My prolific queens in spring does need two boxes.

@davidsmith663 2 жыл бұрын

I started this year and have made my own Insulated Layens hives and traps. The bees seem to love them. They don't get too hot in the summer and seem a lot warmer in the winter so far. The only draw back is they are VERY heavy to move so are best placed in a permanent position.

@BlackMountainHoney 2 жыл бұрын

I am really excited by these larger frame format hives. Definitely going to give them a go this year.

@gregoryjohns9537 10 ай бұрын

In Ohio (USA) my buddy and I run 8 and 10 frame Langstroth but last winter I built 3 insulated Layens (plans on Horizontalhives.com). I caught a late season swarm in a Layens swarm trap having starter strip frames and they really did a great job filling them out. I really like the deeper frames and the bees also seem to like them! Honey extraction from the Layens is an issue I'll tackle next summer.

@robertburgin1688 2 жыл бұрын

So basically you started with langstroth went over to standard national changed over to 14x12 and decided it's not for you gone back to standard national and now trying to convince yourself to go over to langstroth next year 🙄 your like a kid in a very expensive sweet shop lol 😆 but we will all follow you with what you decide haha which surely makes us worst 😉 1 things for sure if you were making your own brood boxes you would definitely go langstroth Great video pal Have a great new year

@BlackMountainHoney 2 жыл бұрын

Ha! So true. At least I am airing my expensive mistakes so any newcomers can try and avoid them. If I could start again. what would I choose? Single national deeps all the way (in the UK)!

@a.patrickgibb4456 2 жыл бұрын

Good video. Moving National nuc into Langstroth is easy. You just need a bar the size of a langstroth top bar and two cable ties for each frame.. Sling the national frame under the bar and you're done. You can also cut some wood to fill the gap at either end, drill it, and cable tie that into the gap. Once done you can gradually shift the bees onto proper langstroth frames.

@JimCinUK 2 жыл бұрын

We have an experienced member of our society who learnt his beekeeping on Langstroph hives in Oz. He now keeps circa 30 colonies in the UK & swears they are better than nationals. He says the bees propolis them up much less. Bigger brood area & top bee space. Only downside for him is the weight. Think I might give them a go.

@BlackMountainHoney 2 жыл бұрын

Yep. There is so much going for them. I would swap over in a flash (if everyone is did!) LOL

@jenniferdeghuee1615 2 жыл бұрын

Great video, thanks. I use 10 frame Langstroth hives. The one downside is the weight when full. A full deep of honey can weigh almost 80-100 lbs. Consequently many people in the US use deeps for the brood boxes and mediums for the honey supers.

@BlackMountainHoney 2 жыл бұрын

I love a heavy box. My back doesnt! LOL

@MrLoCoBee 2 жыл бұрын

i found this out early on in my beekeeping, and im really happy i switch to langs before my colonie numbers went up. one thought on your comment of handles their are some variations with bars instead of grooved handles. plus honey paw hives have deep handles all the way round

@BlackMountainHoney 2 жыл бұрын

Much prefer to handhelds to bars when it comes to stacking. The honey paw are the poly langs right?

@ianwatkins3002 2 жыл бұрын

@@BlackMountainHoney One of the Langstroth polys. I've got a couple and haven't got on with them TBH. Too easily damaged in my ham-fisted experience. Abelo do one (I'm looking forward to seeing that one at one of the shows next year) as do Paradise.

@pnkemp 2 жыл бұрын

When I started a couple of years ago with a swarm I caught I was planning on using Langstroth for all the reasons you gave (though the nuc box I attracted the girls to was a national size), but I was preempted by my beekeeping partner who was convinced by our local association that it was National or nothing so he bought a couple of national hives and we’ve been stuck ever since. At least it was poly he bought 🙂. I’m planning on emigrating soon and if I start again, at least there won’t be the choice, it’ll be Lang or nothing and I’ll be very happy with it.

@philipmumba3788 Жыл бұрын

That's what partners do, getting us stuck to whatever they want

@patrick_laslett_allotment 2 жыл бұрын

To some degree I think it depends on your bees - if are you running large colonies like Buckfast (as you are?) then I think they like a bigger box (that is the traditional bigger Langstroth). However, if you are obsessed with keeping a more 'native' dark bee they are happy in the smaller box. I keep a couple of Langstroth nucs through the winter for the FlowHive enthusiasts and choose the more honey coloured bees for my Langstroth boxes. They build up quicker in the spring and need more feeding in the winter I find.

@BlackMountainHoney 2 жыл бұрын

Take the size of the colony as an aside, I'd still prefer the Langstroth system. It's so much easier to make equipment and much more resourceful with materials.

@JR-on6dg 2 жыл бұрын

Interesting video, thanks. My simple method for using national frames from your nuc, straight into langstroth. You need an unmade langstroth deep frame, and 2 zip ties. Step 1 take langstroth top bar step 2 using zip ties attach the National frame under the langstroth top bar and pull tight at either end, clip off excess zip tie end step 3 add to box . Step 4 be careful - the bees will build burr comb at the ends, I added langstroth side bars to prevent this, but I don’t have enough experience of National frames to know if this can be done as standard ( I’m only on year three of my beekeeping life) and have only run langstroth having started on flow

@BlackMountainHoney 2 жыл бұрын

Awesome tip. Thanks JR

@NaturalRawHoneyBees 2 жыл бұрын

I decided to be different, not to be contra to the norm in UK, but from previous experience when I used to keep a few hives, I have opted for not only a Longhive system, but one using the Langstroth Frame format. Laurence, I have Longhives in both the conventional frame (for cut comb) and Flow Frame (honey) format. I also find the shorter lugs on the frames means less for the girls to propolise and thus easier to inspect/remove, as well as being so much more sturdy and should last longer, especially is rotating foundation. I also believe that if we have long drawn out very cold winter spells, then the girls do not have to move onto new frames as often which may be the success or failure of a number of colonies. More to come form my channel next year.

@BlackMountainHoney 2 жыл бұрын

Very interesting. Ill keep an eye on the channel :D

@ashaw007 2 жыл бұрын

Hi Lawrence, just watched and enjoyed your video as always. I actually have Dadant hives with 11 frame brood boxes & 11 frame supers. Langstroth are similar, a little smaller. I do understand from a commercial point of view why you have Nationals, however, I do enjoy my red cedar hives & strong frames. keep up the good work. Ashley. x

@BlackMountainHoney 2 жыл бұрын

Your post has inspired me. I am going to buy some Dadant hives to play with! LOL

@Craftybees2024 2 жыл бұрын

I like that the frames are used worldwide so if you wanna buy them in bulk from Alibaba there about 10p . About 25p a frame when you include all the different fees . There creeping up to £1.50 on the uk retailers .

@BlackMountainHoney 2 жыл бұрын

Yes - that's a big benefit. They are also much easier to replace the wax as well

@ianwatkins3002 2 жыл бұрын

The standard Langstroth is 10 frames in the UK. I've never seen an 8 frame for sale TBH (cedar or poly). One major advantage of Langstroth is that unless your bees are crazy you are highly unlikely to ever need to go to double brood or brood and a half which makes inspections a lot easier. I was recommended to go to Langstroth by someone in my local BKA and after having read and seen the travails of those on Nationals WRT brood box management I'm glad I did. :-)

@BlackMountainHoney 2 жыл бұрын

Cheers Ian. I am going to get a 10 frame to run alongside my Flow Hive 8 frames. I do quite like the size of a double 8 frame variant though. Lots of flexibility for swarm control as well.

@Vaidelotelis 2 жыл бұрын

@@BlackMountainHoney the problem with an 8 frame Langstroth in the UK is that it's virtually impossible to buy equipment for it. Which many Flow Hive people soon find out to their disappointment. A 10 frame Langstroth is no problem at all.

@andrewstodart8680 2 жыл бұрын

Hi Lawrence just watched your Video and glad you have done it. I operate with Langstroth and National and the bees outperform on the Langstroth by far. I use Abelo equipment Lyson Langstroth for hives and Hives and Nucs. To meet the needs of others for the National Nucs I have converted boxes between the Langstroth so I work with Langstroth frames in the bottom then a National size above using a 2 brood system. I have one flow hive in the wooden Langstroth and it is coming through the winter as one of the strongest hives compared to National. My plan is to buy a honey extractor that will take both sizes of deep frames. Look forward to seeing your future reviews and maybe you will consider doing some reviews on the Lyson Hives and Nucs. The Lyson Nucs winter very well. Its a bit of work to do both but works for me using the Abelo equipment probably due due to the strength and durability of there boxes. If I was a commercial operator I would go Langstroth all day long. Frames build up quicker and more honey too. All the best for 2022 everyone from AJS Honeybees.

@BlackMountainHoney 2 жыл бұрын

I have heard this from a number of people that they perform better. Be interesting to see the differences this year.

@markmurphy8303 2 жыл бұрын

Hi Lawrence. Langstroth all the way for me I just love how solid the boxes are and the bigger frames, I have all 10 frame langstroth hives. Another good vlog Lawrence mate I will definitely be watching how you get on with your new langstroth hives.

@BlackMountainHoney 2 жыл бұрын

Cheers Mark! They are certainly solid! Handhelds are the only thing I'm not keen on.

@markmurphy8303 2 жыл бұрын

@@BlackMountainHoney I make all my boxes and run a baton on all sides for easy handhelds and use migratory lids which sit snug to the baton plus I use a empty super on top of my inner cover for winter feeding.

@Zenshu1 Ай бұрын

@@BlackMountainHoney you can definitely get better handholds for the langstroth boxes, I think beesmart designs makes removable rope handles for langstroth boxes, but yeah the handles for standard langstroth boxes are not the greatest thing since they were designed to let the boxes of commercial beekeepers sit flush with each other and they can't be cut too deep without weakening the box side or busting right through it.

@parkinsonga3092 2 жыл бұрын

The entrance on my langstroth hives are always on the side, and just to add to the controversy, I knock out one of the knot holes, doesn't matter where as long as it's only around 15-20mm, living in the North of England my entrances always face east. I've found that the bees come out a lot earlier than South facing entrances.

@jakethehulk 2 жыл бұрын

Pro tip for you Lawrence, if you want to put your nationals into a langstroth the national frames fit perfectly inside the langstroth frames and just 2 cable ties keeps them secure. It means you can move a whole hive over in one go without messing around too much and just replace the frames with foundation as the brood hatches out.

@BlackMountainHoney 2 жыл бұрын

Awesome tip. Thanks Jake

@gregmathews715 Жыл бұрын

There are some advantages to nationals in terms of hive management surely eg splits, quick queen cell inspections. To have a rounded account you need to include these advantages. Also a bit about the British bee origin of the national

@christinewhyte2590 2 жыл бұрын

I’m in the US and was always puzzled by the terminology in the UK. Thanks for clearing that up! I use 8 frame Langstroth, it’s lighter than 10 frame, but now that single brood chamber is getting more popular I wonder if I should do 10 frame and give that a go.

@BlackMountainHoney 2 жыл бұрын

I do quite like a double brood system for the flexibility in swarm management but also like the single brood for simplicity of inspection. Its all about finding out what works for you. I havent found that yet! LOL

@michaelwoodhouse8911 2 жыл бұрын

I live in the south and have langstroth. Your comments are correct in as much as the pressure to go to Nationals in a bee club is quite high. but with modern Brood size, the national guys then start changing, double brood or 14 x 12 etc. the only real advantage seems to be that national supers are lighter when full of honey.One final point is that with double Brood, the treatments and inspections are twice as lengthy and expensive for Varoa strips etc. Langstroth every time

@TimS366 2 жыл бұрын

Langstroth by a country mile. Choice of box sizes, easier to make myself and slightly bigger brood compared to National. Sadly like many others I have several hundred Nationals! But if I were to start again from scratch knowing what I know now Langstroth no question.

@BlackMountainHoney 2 жыл бұрын

For honey production I fully agree but the only caveat is what everyone is else is doing. Nuc market is big for us so having it standardised really helps! If I could wave a wand and everyone was on Langs, I'd do it in a heartbeat!

@TimS366 2 жыл бұрын

@@BlackMountainHoney I wonder if anybody has tried to separate their nuc and honey production, and as I ask the question I know the answer sadly. I can't help getting slightly envious when I see the likes of Ian Steppler, Bob Binnie and many others online with just one type of box. They must think we are all mad over here!

@BlackMountainHoney 2 жыл бұрын

@@TimS366 Exactly. Just imagine the simplicity of a single box system that was easy to make and cheap. Oh wait, its the Langstroth! LOL. I'm well and truly embedded in national for honey as well though as the auto uncapper is designed for the frame size! 😞

@albigensian4655 2 жыл бұрын

for me, i went for the flow hive so it's langstroth, with my back and neck health issues it enabled me to get into beekeeping which i would not otherwise have been able to do.

@BlackMountainHoney 2 жыл бұрын

That's a great reason to buy a flow hive. Lugging honey supers and extracting can take its toll.

@davidjohn8889 2 жыл бұрын

6 of my hives are in commercial boxes (small lugs) and on a proper inspection my bloody finger tips kill me, the frames are big and can get very heavy, I find them pretty awkward as well. I’m glad when I get to the national side of the apiary. In the past I’ve tried 14x12 as well but have to say that the national brood box is the easiest to work with especially with demaree splits. Love your site mate

@BlackMountainHoney 2 жыл бұрын

Thanks David. For all the downsides of nationals, the long lugs are easiest to handle. I still curse them daily when they snap though!

@nabooshaman6107 2 жыл бұрын

14x12 national with top bee space for me. Flat wire queen excluder with no rim. I like the long lugs and single brood box. No extra boxes for winter stores.

@won2winit 2 жыл бұрын

Smith hives has the shorter lugs like langstroth, take 11 and a dummy like National, slightly rectangular so you can store them like russian dolls "supers in a brood", top bee space like langstroth. Really like mine and will get some more as want to take them to the heather at some point.

@davedouglass6 2 жыл бұрын

Great video as ever, Laurence. I run Smith’s too. A poor man’s langstroth one could argue! Agree with Beagrie…For me the top bee space is a key benefit, especially mid summer when the bees are prolific. The boxes are lighter too. Happy New Year when it comes!

@won2winit 2 жыл бұрын

Can see a new purchase and a series of videos on Laurence's horizon.....

@BlackMountainHoney 2 жыл бұрын

Right. Im off to buy some Smiths hives!

@won2winit 2 жыл бұрын

@@BlackMountainHoney Well you have almost every other one going.....what's the worst that can happen

@davedouglass6 2 жыл бұрын

@@BlackMountainHoney Hope you do! If you fancy a ‘tour of Britain’ for the channel this year you’re welcome to come see my Smith’s in Northumberland 👍

@reefermaker 2 жыл бұрын

I just bought a national nuc and clipped them in to Langstroth frames. The bees just built to the size of the Langstroth. Then I just gradually removed and replaced the "National/Langstroth" frames with standard Langstroth once the colony had got stong in the brood box and put the "National/Langstroth" frames above the QX so the brood on the frames would still hatch keeping the colony size the same. Once it ceased to be a brood frame I just removed it.

@BlackMountainHoney 2 жыл бұрын

Great tip. Definitely have a go of this in 2022

@tonyfox5422 2 жыл бұрын

I think langstroth is the easier to construct and work with. Most hives are glue and screw/nail together. The cutting sheet is very easy if you build your own. I already use transit roofs in the warmer months and upturned bucket feeders when the transits are in use on my nationals. I just didn’t have the guts to change over. I had the opportunity last year when I moved beekeeping style from brood x2 to a single 14x12.

@BlackMountainHoney 2 жыл бұрын

Its the buildability that I just love! So simple to construct

@coreydavoll7622 2 жыл бұрын

Thanks for the comparison! I was always wondering about the differences since I haven't heard of the National style until I found your channel.

@BlackMountainHoney 2 жыл бұрын

No worries! Now you can see much better your worldwide adopted system is. Typical UK trying to reinvent the wheel and messing it up! 😆

@coreydavoll7622 2 жыл бұрын

@@BlackMountainHoney lol the states does it's fair share of that too!

@in5linesofcodeorless552 2 жыл бұрын

I think you should use what other people use around you - I live in the UK so I use a national Edit : I also use WBC but not sure if other countries use them

@dickymint4109 6 ай бұрын

I keep referring new beekeepers to this video to encourage them to buck the trend of National hives! Langstroth is far superior in my opinion and needs to be promoted more especially by the BBKA and local clubs. The main benefit to me is with a 10 frame Lang the number of bees is way more than a National. Using Nationals almost always means running two brood boxes or 'brood and a half' whereas I can run single brood all year long. I can even overwinter my Langs without the need to feed syrup - in fact this year they've come through (so far ;) ) without any emergency fondant. Single brood management makes life so easy.

@dickymint4109 6 ай бұрын

PS. forgot to say mine are Flowhives.......even easier lol

@stevemartin7660 2 жыл бұрын

I have used Langstroth Jumbo hives for nearly 50 years as well as 14x12 Nationals, The Langstroth is a far better hive for the reasons you have highlighted, You can use them the warm way if you make your own floors to suit. Top bee space is a big advantage and prevents too much propolisation.

@bobcat3905 Жыл бұрын

So what is the best type to build? What are most keepers switching to? Top Bar or Layen's or Bee Barn style. I just want to build one that most would like to have.

@TheBaconWizard 2 жыл бұрын

As a lifelong contrarian I have to extol the virtues of a warre hive :p

@BlackMountainHoney 2 жыл бұрын

This made me laugh! :D

@TheBaconWizard 2 жыл бұрын

@@BlackMountainHoney Good! Have a great day, and thanks for the vids.

@rangersteve2279 2 жыл бұрын

On the same wavelength! I've just bought some Langstroth kit in the T* Winter Sale. Really looking forward to trying them out next year.

@BlackMountainHoney 2 жыл бұрын

ooh nice. I went on at 12:01. 1 min after it started and all the cut price stuff was gone. Was gutted.

@rangersteve2279 2 жыл бұрын

@@BlackMountainHoney yeah you 've got be quick! was it Lang or National you were after? i started with Commercials against imparted wisdom from trainers... has worked for me. But really want to see how Langs perform.

@ashleywoods4724 2 жыл бұрын

Hi Laurence. Nice video. I run all commercial kit at the moment as that's what my mentor ran. They do seem to have a lot of the good points that the langstroth has especially regarding the frames. but unfortunately I do struggle to get kit at decent prices. So definitely considering moving over to langstroth as you can get kit in so much cheaper.

@BlackMountainHoney 2 жыл бұрын

I've been looking this week at buying some different kit for videos and could believe how expensive Dadant and Commercial hives are. £££

@ashleywoods4724 2 жыл бұрын

@@BlackMountainHoney agreed. I only buy the packs of pine brood and supers from bee equipment. I make all my floors, crown boards and roofs from reclaimed pallet wood. It's a great source of free timber.

@bzhoneyalanb8613 2 жыл бұрын

Great honest video. I bought a flow hive for my first hive because I'm a sucker for a gadget but bought langs from then on. I run both nats and langs for the nuc selling point but find you can over winter so much easier in a single brood box. I get mine from abroad. Poly lang massive feeder 2 honey supers 1 brood floor roof excluder £85 what a saving. Look forward to your thoughts.

@BlackMountainHoney 2 жыл бұрын

Where did you get those from? Sounds awesome.

@bzhoneyalanb8613 2 жыл бұрын

They refund the tax if you have a vat number. Which I remember you said you had in a previous video

@bzhoneyalanb8613 2 жыл бұрын

Okay 3rd attempt to tell you the site it keeps getting removed so put "bee" and "equipment" and ".eu" together.

@BlackMountainHoney 2 жыл бұрын

@@bzhoneyalanb8613 Nice one. Ill take a look now. Cheers 😀

@bzhoneyalanb8613 2 жыл бұрын

@Black Mountain Honey let me know how you get on. They have served me 5 years so far up in Scotland. There are better on the market but they are a happy medium.

@andrewolgado6018 Жыл бұрын

I tie national frames onto top of langstroth bar. Sorted

@jackiemccutcheon9048 2 жыл бұрын

Hi, I have ten frame langstroths, the frames top underside do split off and the bottom of the frames are two strips, might be just the ultra expensive flow hive brood box is different to us paupers hives ;) keep up the great videos, I for one have learned a lot from watching you :)

@russellkoopman3004 2 жыл бұрын

You are right. In the US almost all hives are 10 frame Langs but the flow hive wanted to keep the cost down of the Flow honey super and used an 8 frame lang. Folks that buy the 8 frame are concerned about the weight of a 10 frame with honey which will weigh 70 lbs plus and those little hand grips are rough on fingers.

@BlackMountainHoney 2 жыл бұрын

Thanks Jackie :D

@BlackMountainHoney 2 жыл бұрын

I'm gonna but a 10 frame version as well now :D

@joncotn 24 күн бұрын

So, I can use my national nucs with Langstroth? Build up is very quick in spring so maybe langstroth is the way forward?

@djberesford 2 жыл бұрын

Interesting, beekeeping in NZ, the whole country standardised on Langstroth a long time ago, including bottom bee space. No one really knows that there are different systems, you just order a full depth, 3/4, or 1/2 depth box and they’re standard and compatible and so are the frames. As you say, there’s no warm/cool way either. I’ve come across one beekeeper buying extra deep frames and boxes - he had to import them himself.

@BlackMountainHoney 2 жыл бұрын

This would be BLISS! We have SO many options over here. Literally every variant you can imagine.

@cliveartus2117 2 жыл бұрын

You have a 30 frame Lyson extractor that takes the standard deep langstroth so you wouldn’t have to change your extractor. I have the 20 frame and they fit great. Have a good New Year.

@BlackMountainHoney 2 жыл бұрын

The uncapper is fixed to national sizing though :(

@Lsmith-ly2cm 2 жыл бұрын

10 frame langstroth is the standard . 8 frame are for old beekeepers like me . thanks for the video.

@mynanlovestea 2 жыл бұрын

To be honest I wish we could lobby thornes and maisemore to stop selling nationals, but nationals are big money makers and basically a giant scam. The profit margins on Lang are so much smaller

@BlackMountainHoney 2 жыл бұрын

Is the profit margin smaller because they dont purchase/make them on the same scale? I always thought the Lang was cheaper to manufacture. Maybe timber prices have taken their toll.

@mynanlovestea 2 жыл бұрын

@@BlackMountainHoney timber price is certainly an issue, maisemore flat pack second langs are dirt cheap at 150 fully built including frames and foundations. Where a national is 200+ Maybe in 20 years when all the old boys are gone things might change but for now everyone is force fed to buy nationals and the manufacturers know this thus hike the margins they want

@mynanlovestea 2 жыл бұрын

Nationals like you said in your video are more parts, take 4x as long to build have room for bad errors. I just think they are awful they are almost just for fun/ hobbycraft in my eyes

@LishmanJamie 2 жыл бұрын

I’ve got a FlowHive too and have to work from the back in my wheelchair. Don’t find it that hard to be fair. My new hive is a national so I’ll be able to compare too.

@jeremybaker4979 2 жыл бұрын

Go langstroths. Simple to make and paint .I presume that is why you said wait for your video. Thanks

@BlackMountainHoney 2 жыл бұрын

You got it! :D

@Algeriafigs 2 жыл бұрын

Some says that layens hives and frames are the best

@BlackMountainHoney 2 жыл бұрын

Hopefully I will have one to play with this year! :P

@uswwt 2 жыл бұрын

The standard of the standard is 10 frame Langstroth :) I don't think the 8-frame Langstroth is as common, especially that commercial beekeepers almost use 10-frame Langstroth exclusively. Although frames (if all deep) are interchangeable. Unfortunately 10-frame Langstroth have three different heights. Deep, medium and shallow. Deep is the golden standard. But the weight can break someone's back if filled with honey. The frames are not interchangeable between Deep, medium or shallow. Although you can put the shorter frames into taller boxes. The bees will be happy to use them. But you will create a mess. A deep 10-frame Langstroth + QE + any number of medium boxes on top as Honey supers is a great setup for hobby beekeeps. The 10-frame deep box is just enough of space as a brood area. You can run double deeps or double 8-frame boxes or two mediums. You have a lot of frames to deal with in those setups, making it harder to find the queen, do inspection, mite treatment etc. Queen excluder keeps the queen from laying in your honey supers. That makes it a lot easier for honey harvesting and easier management. The medium boxes is just about the right weight for honey. Although they can still weight more than 50 pounds per box when filled. The QE restriction could cause more swarms though. So it's important to regularly check for swarm cells. Alternatively just take a frame or two of brood out every few weeks to keep the population in check. The extra frames can be used for splits or boost another colony. The smaller population may reduce honey production. But the additional splits you can should be more than enough to offset that loss. Many Canadian beekeepers use single 10-frame deep single brood management in their harsh winters. So the setup certainly works well.

@headbangingzuluuk5058 2 жыл бұрын

Thanks for doing this have lerned a lot. I suppose the Langstroth frames will hold more Honey as well and the boxes will be heavier. Have been ill so have a fair few of your vids to catch up on keep up the good work.

@BlackMountainHoney 2 жыл бұрын

The deeps will hold more honey but they do shallows as well to keep the weights down.

@BlackMountainHoney 2 жыл бұрын

Hope you are ok and get better soon HBZUK

@terencegreene5505 2 жыл бұрын

I like creating some of my own langstroth equipment, so much information on KZfaq to help… a lot of videos from America!

@BlackMountainHoney 2 жыл бұрын

Yes - some great content out there

@lialos 2 жыл бұрын

There's nothing stopping you from building bottoms for Langstroths using the construction technique you described for your Nationals. I'll probably make a couple and try them. Also, if you build them 90 degrees rotated from "normal" you'd be running your hives the "warm way" as I believe you called it.

@EveyoneCallsMeTheDude Жыл бұрын

I like putting 9 in an 8 frame and 11 in a 10 frame.. If you shave down the, I don’t know what you would call it., but the fat part where they Butt up. But it’s better bee space and you get an extra frame.

@zetec52 2 жыл бұрын

Why not just get some hives made up to fit national frames with top bee space and 8 frame capacity ? You could even probably sell some old 12 frame national hives

@won2winit 2 жыл бұрын

Smith hives does the job and have the short lugs

@paulwilliams4031 2 жыл бұрын

i bought one national, now i make my own boxes i make 10 frames national boxes with a bee space , i did this because you buy frames and foundition in packs off 10 were ever you look there sold in 10

@BlackMountainHoney 2 жыл бұрын

Yeah its strange that isn't it. STB does them in 11s. I normally buy in 50s so it tends to balance out in the end. Are your boxes 460mm x 460mm?

@Shareyourwisdom 13 күн бұрын

Thank you

@bluelab5019 2 жыл бұрын

If I could turn back time I'd definitely use Langstroth but I'm too invested in National now. Wish I'd put more thought into it when I started. In years to come if I decide to take this hobby to a business I'm going to swap over.

@BlackMountainHoney 2 жыл бұрын

This is the problem. Everyone starts on national, gets too embedded in the system and can never change. Exactly what happened to me. It only works if everyone changes all at once! LOL

@MR-xh7pe Жыл бұрын

The closer type of national is the commercial one, because the parts and accessories of national, it's the same as commercial type.

@eveleighmooredutton9102 2 жыл бұрын

The thing I really dislike about langstroth is the difficulty I have in getting the wax onto the wires

@BlackMountainHoney 2 жыл бұрын

Have you tried a car battery? Takes seconds

@gregoryjohns9537 10 ай бұрын

I made a embedding jig with an DeWALT 20V Battery Adapter with Fuse & Switch, Wire Terminals. Works great, portable, light.

@radoslawjocz2976 2 жыл бұрын

I like BS National better because it has a better ergonomics for the beekeeper and providing good flexibility. Ergonomics is most important!! The assembling of the boxes is not difficult and done only once. Bottom bee space is useful when you do inspection because you can lie the box on something flat without risk of crashing the bees. Equipment such as crown board which requiring a beespace is not a problem such wood is cheap, it is easy to make a different versions of extra equipment for example different versions of crown board and eke and boards for the mesh floor.

@BlackMountainHoney 2 жыл бұрын

I'm glad you like the system. Everyone is different and its all about finding what works for you. I just like the simplicity of the Langstroth system. When making CBs you dont need to mess about making rims for bee space which really speeds it up. I do like the handholds of the national better and like you have the option of the warm way/cold way

@radoslawjocz2976 2 жыл бұрын

@@BlackMountainHoney Langstroth is nice for assembling if everything is manufactured precisely but National is better suited for amateurs, because easier to handle. I have seen Dadant boxes which are similar construction to BS National having locking bars and inner/outer walls. I assume you can buy cheaper Langstroth equipment because is so popular but Chinese version might be slightly different than American.

@radoslawjocz2976 Жыл бұрын

Currently I think that National hives are OK for amateurs in the UK (price, ergonomic) but broods are too small and running double broods is basically awkwardness. The frames lugs should be slightly shorter, stronger and foundation wires on the bottom bars should be nailed or fixed other way, it is just flawed sloppy design, so why I extract only supers. However square profile of national is better. From engineering point of view the way how langstroth walls are joined together is good but handles recess is just rubbish it would be much better to have long and protruding handles instead.

@Zenshu1 Ай бұрын

@@radoslawjocz2976the recessed handles exist for a reason though. All langstroth boxes are designed for commercial beekeeping where they load hundreds of hives on to semi trucks and ship them around the US for paid pollination services and the boxes have to sit flush side to side and front to back to fit on the truck and be strapped down, that being said telescoping covers are something that the commercial guys don't use but are widely available and used a lot by hobbyists, and protruding handles are also sold or easily made for langstroth boxes as well just not many people bother with it because the recessed handles work well enough for 99% of people that it's not worth the time and/or money to build or buy better handles.

@Michael-yl2iq 2 жыл бұрын

Interesting video but I use Layens hives and Horizontal Long Langstroth so I can't judge.

@BlackMountainHoney 2 жыл бұрын

How do you find the Layens hives? Im gonna get one this year

@Michael-yl2iq 2 жыл бұрын

@@BlackMountainHoney I only started Layens a year ago with 3 hives. So far I have greatly enjoyed them. They are not as common, so supplies and such are harder to find and cost more. I build all my own but that may effect others. The hives are big and heavy. You cannot easily move them around so be sure you level and set them up right from the start. The difference I noticed between them and the average Langstroth is that often the bees build brood and stores on one frame. A single Layens brood frame looks like a Langstroth medium on top of a deep. Heavy stores on top and coming down sides with brood in middle. If you winter feed your bees sugar you will need to use a frame feeder or some other method as opposed to a top feeder. So far 2 of the 3 hives are strong. Will wait till spring to see how well they perform. Take care and enjoy.

@mauriceleahy7095 2 жыл бұрын

I have 3 Modified Commercial hives very easy to build and bigger hrood chamber than National short lugs on frames I like them

@BlackMountainHoney 2 жыл бұрын

I like the commercial format and frames as well, but it still has compatability issues with national frames in terms of management of swarming by making up nucs. I do like the feel of the commercial frames though with the shorter lugs

@BlaineNay 2 жыл бұрын

There is absolutely no magic hive design or magic race of bees that will compensate for poor colony management. The bees don't care about hive format. Varroa mites don't care about hive format. Diseases don't care about hive format. So, pick a hive design that's as easy as possible for the beekeeper so he/she can properly manage the colony. I've tried a variety of hive designs over the past 60 years and keep going back to the Langstroth hive. There is nothing that can be done in any other hive design that can't also be done in a Langstroth hive. And, everything is easier and better (especially learning for the beginner) with a Langstroth. Lorenzo Langstroth designed his system for beekeeper efficiency. It works. Now well into my 70s and with back problems, I wish I could easily and inexpensively make one change with my Langstroth: Switch from 10-frame deep boxes to 8-frame medium boxes. Unfortunately, I expect my existing 10-frame deep equipment to last longer than me.

@BlackMountainHoney 2 жыл бұрын

Couldn't agree more Blaine. Bees well and truly put up with us beekeepers and make do, so we have plenty of flexibility to do what we need to do. In the UK we have so many variations on offer, which is good and bad. Good that you have flexibility to choose. Bad that each one ends up costing more and then you have compatibility issues. I see the 8 versus 10 frame variant is a contested debate! If you were to swap out for 8s, would you go double brood or do away with QX?

@TH-cl5be 2 жыл бұрын

hello whats the difference between the langstroth and commercial hives .

@shanehamilton95 2 жыл бұрын

Commercial vs langstroth would bea interesting comparison, i use all super Commercial boxes, but what are your thoughts on Commercial boxes.

@BlackMountainHoney 2 жыл бұрын

I am going to order some commercials now, along with some Dadants :D

@croftonhoneyco.6177 2 жыл бұрын

Sounds like you want to try my method of modifying a Langstroth to accept national frames Laurence.. Solves the nuc problem. 😉

@BlackMountainHoney 2 жыл бұрын

It's a nice idea but I dont have time to be modding them up :(

@davidcurtiswatts2378 Жыл бұрын

Layens beats both.

@thedude2178 2 жыл бұрын

Excellent

@BlackMountainHoney 2 жыл бұрын

Thank you! Cheers!

@benjamindejonge3624 2 жыл бұрын

Even the layens are more universal than national or even Danton

@BlackMountainHoney 2 жыл бұрын

Ha! Maybe..

@seamus33cork Жыл бұрын

Do you have commercial hive in uk

@rose2525bud 2 жыл бұрын

🍯🐝🍯

@BlackMountainHoney 2 жыл бұрын

MMM

@williamsummers6438 2 жыл бұрын

Neither are the best. Both of them are thin walled wood hives and frequently wet from rain or condensation. The differences must be minor from the bees point of view who want to be warm, dry and and free from diseases and not using much winter feed.

@BlackMountainHoney 2 жыл бұрын

That's why I use Poly 😉

@radoslawjocz2976 Жыл бұрын

The handles on Langstroth are just rubbish and not need 4 of them!! Square dimensions of National is also much better, there is not reason why it must be rectangular.

@muddyfunker3014 Жыл бұрын

Dammit my head is about to explode 😂 We aquired a couple of wbc hives a while ago one of which I added a nuc to only yesterday. I know this is something that I'll get into and expand, not commercially. I've been looking at all the available national options, I'd settled on just using deep. This video has thrown that all up in to the air and I'm even more confused lol. I'm at the start so have the option to go langstroth. Pricing in the UK doesn't look much cheaper though?