What do YOU think makes a good MMORPG?

Current MMO design principles: How can we extract the most money from our player base before they realize how shallow our game is and quit?

Encountering enemies naturally in the game world is better than battlegrounds or arenas.

The soundtrack is the single most important ambient aspect of a game, even more than visuals. You cannot leave a lasting impression with a visual style, but humans are adapted to emotionally tying to audio cues.

#1 Progression #2 Customization #3 Immersion - Lore/Environment #4 Mechanics - Depth/Complexity #5 Community - covers competition, cooperation, player interactions, etc.

Tips, In my opinion this is one of your best videos to date. It tackles some philosophical topics while remaining enjoyable to watch and listen to. Keep up the good work!

Great video. Would be good to turn this into a series. This just scratches the surface.

Being able to play the game the way you want not being forced to Raid, pvp, carft and so on. What made classic great was that you could play your class in many diffrent ways due to how the talent tree worked and depending on what type of gear you used. Sure there will allways be cookie cutter builds but if your not playing in the top % then a hybrid spec might be way more fun and still good.

Ohh that bear train still makes me smile from ear to ear :D, That simple train of snarling paws felt so good. So much the game i wanna play. Imo the best contend is the contend we as the players create ourselfs.

One of your best videos yet. You successfully took a messy topic and broke it down into some of it's most simple components.

Surprised this video doesn't have more views. Very well done

your videos are so well made and so high quality, you honestly deserve more subs!

Tips, your recent videos have been fucking killer. Keep going, your editing and writing are phenomenal.

I'm writing up an MMORPG right now and these were helpful tips. As a fan of the genre, I can agree with this list as the priority. I do appreciate 3 other things following this list: Story, graphics, and combat.

What a fantastic video. So well thought out and delivered, wow.

I would add DIFFICULTY to the list. All the gear in the world can't satisfy you if you don't have the feeling you've earned it. Same goes for any other accomplishment in the game of course - vanilla wow mounts are perhaps the most illustrative example. Vanilla mounts and lvl 15 grey shoulderpads. Also I love how at 7:36 you don't even bother to say "Blizzard" anymore and go straight with "Activision" :D Keep up the great content, I love your classic wow analyses and discussions.

Narator: "a soundtrack that sends chills down your spine..." Music starts, chills ensue. CRAP! I am a WoW (classic) tool.

im working on a mmo my self tbh watching this video helps me out alot, im specially making it a rpg, thx for putting this out

That WoW soundtrack snippet literally sent chills down my spine

really solid video, thanks

Greatest video so far my dude! Good job, must have taken a lot of work

Excellent vid, tips!

6:57 it really did send the chill down the spine bro :(

Competition with other players is not always a pillar, though if you expand that to competition in general (including player vs environment) then it is.

Thank you for this!

Amazing video very well explained

Can you link the featured games in your video ? Some of the clips are very interesting, particularly the talent tree at 1:40

The world and feeling you exist in it. That is it.

Welcome to Asmongold's Stream Content.

Awesome video thanks

tiny detail but, i really like how you said "player killing" when showing runescape and not pvp. keeping with the game terminology

great video, and i think your 100% on point. I just wish the industry hadnt taken these points and attempted monetize each and every one of them

GREAT video!

Videos like this have already been posted and explained, but you do say some good stuff as well and since I DO like your vidz (did give you my first -1 in your last vid) along with yourself, the time and effort you put in to make them earned you another +1 from me. Allow me then as a 40yo "oldschool" gamer with 7 mmo's under his belt (but prefer have both feet on the ground!) to tell my tale. For me personally. What makes MMO's good is systems/immersion that promotes people to: # group up together where you need to meet and TALK to other people (classic) not just press a button or don't need to care or do anything for it # get that upgraded feeling when you clear something (progression) # harder gameplay (hard means game last longer and more challenging) # the music and it's atmosphere (which must fit where you are in the world and change as you go) # lore or background for the game (if there is any) something people can relate with # have a meaning for what you are doing for more people then yourself # making choices that really matters (talents points and such) and customization What I am trying to say here, coming from the Dark Age of Camelot era (2001) where you had all of this and Classic (vanilla). Did not play the other mmo's until Lineage 2 and WoW (2004) though. So no Runescape and EverQuest etc. In Daoc as one example, what you did was not only for you alone but it helped the entire realm (side) that were in there. Promoted both a strong WILL and NEED to group up and socalize. You are spot on my good friend Tips when you say todays games focus more on some flashy gfx, fast paced gameplay and micro transactions and way too much! Daoc's gameplay was by todays standard very slow and stiff and still after more then a decade it's talked about for having the best pvp system yet in an mmo. I for one am SO TIRED of most of todays mmo's (and som other genres too imho) where it's usually this "game for all" bs when in reality the majority has to bend to a minority. Sure there has to be some fast paced games as some like that but that means there should be other kinds as well, that we who love Classic, like. Swtor is a very good example. I've played it before it became free2play and I only play it nowdays for the story progression on and off. If it would not have the "star wars" it would not be here I think. It's basicly a singleplayer game with microtransactions (cartel market). To end my book here I will again say that what I am tired of is this easy mode, face rolling, silver plattern, handholding type of gameplay (cough, most of wow's expansions QoL bs except TBC, as one example). So when I first heared of Classic coming, something I did not think would happen after so long, I went...I stop there =) Good gfx is nice but just like Runescape, don't need to be "4k" flashy gameplay to make a game good.

I think every MMO should be 3 things: 1. Competitive 2. Social 3. Fair If one of them is not there, the MMO will die, and that's why most MMOs die, they always neglect at least one of the 3.

You are the not the hero we deserve, but you are the hero we need...

This is the most helpful thing I've seen this month

Damn good stuff.

Great video Tips! I completely agree with your 6 points, and you're also absolutely damn right that Classic embodies every freaking one of them to a T. Nobody could've said it better, great job bro. 💯🤘

Great video, as always! Did you get the chat message I sent you in discord about the islands video? Would love to hear from you! Cheers drokzhar

i'm very curious to the vanilla launch. If i remember anything about the classic leveling i'm either in all the way or will never make it max level.

Are you planning to continue the profession and class guides?

1. exploration/discovery/immersion 2. player progression vs monster progression through the "expected" path (it should feel natural for the player when he is ready to move on) 3. trade/messaging system being a part of the game, in runescape playing with your chat disabled would be fucking stupid because there's useful game messages there, you could disable the public chat but you would probably rather keep it on 4. multiplayer content vs singleplayer content balance, also expect some content to be done by some players solo and others in groups

What is the game on 2:52-3:02?

Whats the game at 2:47?

Did you really not credit any of the video footage?

I’m still waiting for someone to make a vr mmorpg Edit: what I find to be what makes a mmorpg good at the beginning is just do what ever you want and ignore the NPCs who greet you in game that take you to go on a quest for 7 hours and then you finally go back to we’re you spawned

When is the beta for classic?

For me, it's really just two things: immersion and community. If the game gets these two things right, most everything will fall into place. Btw, I'm glad that you finally got footage of Pantheon here. I'll play Classic, but Pantheon is my end game

Did you ever play baldur's gate or neverwinter nights Tips?

I subbed after this video as well, your topics and point of view is what Blizzard/Activison need to hear to keep this game alive and fresh.

Love the vid Tip! You have some quality content and I always like seeing a new upload from you. I was watching another streamer on KZfaq today, he was streaming P99 Everquest, which I've played for nearly 2 decades! Wasn't familiar with the streamer, or you and his relationship, but it seems you two have some issues. I saw you were whispering him some pretty crude stuff, and he was in turn saying some pretty crude stuff. I think you should just wash your hands with all of that, the language and attitude doesn't seem to be like you, you're a passionate and inspirational person, and I was a bit taken back by how weird that little interaction was. I've been a fan of your channel since your first few vids, and I think you should focus on great content (like this vid!) and ignore that kind of rhetoric. Anyway, cheers mate and thanks for the constant great quality uploads!

Insta like for the CHORONO TRIGGER reference!

Honestly I completely agree with all your points you made in this video and that's rare for me. Developer need to 100% focus on making the cake up to par before putting on the proverbial icing and while its unfortunate I do believe that people have not only forgotten these basics but never learned them. Think of all the new MMO's lathering on that proverbial icing but forgetting the basics new players who haven't experienced the proper way would just assume its supposed to be lack luster. Either way The only thing I will say is that while there are really good examples in the past of successful well made MMO's to not get too caught up that fact. They were perfect for their times but that is also the key to making a successful MMO is that they need to be the best you can offer for your time. If not human nature is to seek better results and they will just leave your game for something else. for example at the time Wow's graphics were amazing and nothing came close to it in terms of content open world chat and immersion etc it pretty much led the market in all aspects however that is no longer the standard or case for future developers making MMO's.

Game at 2:40?

Nothing you said I can disagree with. I still remember running around Teldrisil doing starter quests as a night elf rogue.

at 0:32 is that Zelda?

Completely signed. Ultima Online had a boring combat system, but was one of the best mmorpgs i've ever played. (besides DAoC and WoW until the end of WotLK) Black Desert had the potential to be the best mmorpg of the current time, but digged very early his own grave with the pay 2 win monetization.

Can't forget story when it comes to RPGs. Something not so easily emphasized in an MMO, but key to the foundation of the genres regardless.

When the wait for Classic gets too hard. I put the soundtrack on and close my eyes.

Thanks for your amasing content Tips. When can we expect a deep dive for mage? :D

Whats the game shown in the first scene of the video with the cow and the christmas presents ?

so project 70 not happening? im gonna keep askin till i get a response lol

Great video. I'm also glad you mentioned OSRS. That game gets a lot of shit for the graphics, but it is going gangbusters right now. It has such a strong community, an immersive world, and all-in-all is a fantastic game that shares so much of the same elements that make vanilla WoW great.

I would just like to point out that while progression is very important, it also has be "slow". By slow I'm not saying that you should have to spend weeks to get to the next level, but that 1 level is not gonna make you suddenly 20% stronger. I think this was well balanced in wow up to BC and sort of "OK" in wrath. Where a level 40 player can still kill someone who's 5-6 levels higher with a fairly balanced match up. At some point after cata 1 level would sometimes basicly double your health pool. Also the rate at which you replace your gear in current retail also makes progression "dull".

Excellent video, Tips. I have been somewhat sceptical of you, but realize now that was unfounded, your heart is in the right place. Got my sub

I think a good MMO should have the design philosophies that resembles real life. Basically how society and how basic human psychology works in general.

I played both the original Star Wars Galaxies(pre-update) and World of Warcraft at launch and I will always remember thinking that the SWG was the better MMORPG, closely followed by WOW. However, I ended up in Azeroth because of peer pressure. The reason I loved both, was the rich and immersive settings the game took place in. I am both a warcraft nerd and a star wars nerd, so a chance to dive into these realms was a dream come true. To be an insignificant smuggler or footman and take a stroll into a cantina or ride a horse through Ashenvale, a feeling that can't be described to people who didnt get to experience these things. To be insignificant is not a bad thing, it's essential in my opinion to create a sense of scale in a game. Something Blizzard forgot somewhere around the end of Wrath. Both of these games had exactly the fundamentals you're talking about in this video. And it's a great video, I'm very fond of the way you returned to your "old" narration style in this one. Keep up the brilliant work, cheers!

Have you seen the new wow vanilla assistant app

Love osrs and WoW music but my favorite game music is Zelda ocarina of time and majoras mask

Im going to add in one more thing to the cooperation/community blocket and thats the Privet Ramirez, Do Everything design flaw. the one player can whit one character do everything in the game. because that devalues interaction whit other player. Take crafting. let say your a leather worker and skinner. this mean that you can make leather gear and skin mods for lether. now many armor gear you can make is stuff like Flame Prof cheast piece. what you need to make it Mob Appropriated skinn, maybe some vendor dye and a bottle of Flame Resistance potion made by an alchemist. I see so many MMO where the player can ether do all trade skill on one character or weary few crafting recepts requires other crafting items. (wow was bad at this back then they had a few) Like for Wrath Enginner could make 2 things that was used in 2 quest and 1 crafting recepy result Engineer on that front was dead.

Lineage II was a very good mmorpg that with more advertising on the west would have been perfect(Until interlude), it was stupidly hard, players make their own factions which results in feeling inside the game. -You could even kill your own allies or any person just by clicking ctrl+attack...something I miss a lot from the new ones th -Clans could rule a city and own a castle and others could siege it in two weeks -There was a competition on which the best player on his profession becomes a hero and gains a lot of OP things for a month(including a super sayan like aura that could freak any single player on the server). -After lv75 you could use a second class apart, basically you could be a main tank and change to other profession, even professions of other races, such as warcryer(orc) being human, you could only be 1 profession at time, no stacking of skills or stats from main. This makes the endgame even longer and more funny... But honestly I would have love it even more if lore was expanded as wow did, in the end the f2p and micropayments have killed so many games lately, including lineage II, I hope that soon any studio really makes a game that looks for the health of their servers and the wellness of the players, instead of making a bubble of sales that in no time becomes a boring, repetitive and bad endgame...thing is, wouldn't mind paying 15€ month for a thing like that, without in game buffs on the store other than skins and aesthetic crap.

Agree, but would add a #7 - creative approach to #1-6

So this was a classic wow ad?

This is such a simple take. The difficulty is getting these things to manifest themselves not recognizing what they are. Take for example, community. How do you build a community? Just make a chat window and guild mechanic? No. Communities start with communication of players via their individual needs. You want players to depend on each other. But it's not enough to just depend on each other. LFR shows us this. You must have enough difficulty for players to have to communicate with each other. AND have it be in their benefit to play with the same group week after week (to help get everyone that chase item). This is how you build friendships. Friendships in games create a sticky network of players and clusters of players (i.e. friend groups) those then make up bigger clusters (guilds) and those make up the community. Each level is important and if friendships aren't developing then there's no way you can build a community. You can't just say "Here's the six things" and expect that to be enough. This is something that merits a book on the subject.

For me, a good MMORPG is this: To have a game that keeps to it's lore or story immersing a community which follows up with ideas of their own to make the game itself more widely diverse. With an active community that shares ideas for your stories and lore, makes it easier as a developer to create and run a whole new line of mystery and sense of progression for the players, this will allow not only a great way to spark a fan base, but will also allow your players to offer this experience to people who have played similar of haven't played such games before. Not only that, but with also a good progression can bring about a wide range of abilities which progress not just the class but perhaps also a given role for that person's given story, as you give a game more abilities to progress through, you offer competition with buffs and nerfs of set powers to allow for another set of fans to come about and bring their own fan base. Most MMORPGs today sadly don't even keep to the idea that the community they have is important, they are a source of good ideas and also fan based potential for your game, MMORPGs that are fantasy based like World of Warcraft have NO limit with regards to creation, your imagination can spread out as wide as creating as near over 1000s of races and progressive sets, quests and lore characters. If any of you think I missed something then tell me, if you, that means you too Tips, agree with me, then please comment on this and share your opinions on what should truly be a forever living MMORPG be like.

"what do YOU think makes a good MMORPG?" can I link you this video? :P Great vid Tips I think you were spot on

Hi another banger

For those looking for another game with strong community roots, looks to the smash bros games. It's the only other games besides WoW that I've never been able to put down.

I largely agree, if not 100%.

For me the main criteria are: gothic style visuals and ambience, good balance between PVP and PVE content, variety of classes and synergy between them. Nice soundtrack is always a plus. And for me no MMORPG is better than Lineage 2 Classic so far according to there criteria.

I'm convinced that one of the most important parts of what makes a game good is its music. The music isn't just sound in the background, it's an important part of the overall experience. It sets the tone so much. Westfall in classic WoW with no music: Another zone, old cartoon graphics, annoying harvest golems that keep killing you. Westfall in classic WoW with music: Man, I can really feel how depressed and desperate Westfall is. This place used to be a beautiful farming community, now it's dead and ravaged by criminals and poverty.

COMMUNITY! Nixxiom is proud.

I think a very thick lore is the foundation for any good MMORPG. Wildstar had all of these things, but it always felt....I dunno, fake? Because the lore wasn't fleshed out enough.

Yup. Good video, and as you said, doesnt take a genius to realize this. Lets just hope that WoW goes back to its roots or another MMO adopts these features.

how do you feel about AOC tips its made me feel excited yet bored of the promises !?

Not one mention about Everquest... huh..... perhaps your first MMORPG was WoW... mine was Everquest. so perhaps thats why i view classic everquest with the same esteem as you do WoW. anyways great video.

INTERCONNECTEDNESS is the most important thing in an mmorpg

u are 100% right

Bahldoors gate? Never heard of it lol

There is no one answer. My personal favorite mmorpg's of all time are about as opposite as two games can be and those are Vanilla Wow and Black Desert I guess the one thing you could say both games do have in common is that if you want to be sucsessful in them it takes effort

Interessting video topic. Id love a what makes a bad mmorpg (typically)

YOU sir, should create an MMORPG :-) excellent analytics

Don't forget Acomplishment. Old mmo's made you work for everything you got. Even the most basic rewards weren't handed to you. Made every piece of gear/spell/weapon you got feel special and more powerful.

osrs doesn't have turn based combat :^(

A good mmo is defined by how hard you can dunk on lowbies and Tips doing deep dives on every class ;)

So what's modern wow missing from your list? - I would argue competition. Everything has been made more safe, accessible, easy, streamlined, and Oprah-ish ("you get a car! You get a car! You get a car!")

Character levels, Stat upgrades and gear upgrades are common but NOT necessary for AN RPG/MMORPG.

I have never been immersed in a game before, I still always feel like some dork, smashing my face against a keyboard watching a little pixel character go on a murder hobo rampage and talking to some weirdos with ! and ? above them

Don't be so naieve, Activision isn't listening, they've just found another cash cow -Arexsensuaru armie