I think with the new progressive scoring missions its now more important to deal with scoring units early. When they only scored at game end it was easy to just ignore them til turn 4. Now they score from Turn 1 you need more and the ability to prevent it quicker

Didn’t know Jason had started up a new podcast! I’ve still got vietnam flashbacks from Durham 2017 and this took me right back! Nice to have you back, your cast is great!

I use at least 2 units of 15 in every list

The context of the legion matters a lot in this discussion I think.

I played a game a where we souped tactical squads a bit: Any squad can have one heavy weapon and one special weapon which was super fun. Plus heavy support squads and tac support squads was limited to max 5 man. This gave the squad some other play.

"I know they are designed to score but they is more attractive units..." are you that unit. A sentence for a shirt right there.

It’s also quite legion specific. My DG tacticals are always firing at least two shots each. That’s A LOT of boltgun rounds going down range. Two shots is better than hitting on 2s.

Tactical tax question translates to: Do Tacticals suck? Compared to Terminators they are obviously worse although said Terminators are an elite option. Most war games try to recreate armies and as such someone has to be the grunt option which is available in large numbers with a lesser damage output. There is also the question of how to scale lethality with all units at your disposal. Giving Tacticals a good damage output against similar units will force elite units to dish out obscene amounts of damage thus running the risk of ruining the game. The way NOT to create an army by the way is by filling out all available spots with numerous captains and lieutenants (hello 40K!). Another folly is to bloat death stars and take scoring units in absolute minimal squads just to squeeze as much killing power out of a list. The Tactical marine is the face of 30K and therefore a must-have unit. It only pales in comparison to other marine units because way less players field alternative forces with far worse line units such as SA or Militia. So it is not a big surprise that Tacticals are frowned upon.

Bulk 3+ wounds that project board control. Do you want your 300 point super killy unit to be charged by 110 point tacticals that actually fight better than your super squad in melee with their chain bayonets or tie it up for the rest of the game? No? Then you better stay away from them. There's 100 of them and they're everywhere? You have a problem and you better start killing them if you ever want to move any direction except backwards. Now their super elite killy units are going unmolested? Tacticals doing their job. Still prefer despoilers but if you are able to ignore tacticals either they're being misused, the table is bad, or you and your opponent are valuing the job they are doing differently, and one of you is wrong. If it's you, you're probably going to lose, if it's them, they've just misplayed a 100 point unit. Some of them are also surprisingly efficient into terminators within 12", compared to the alternatives. Although you won't kill many, you've paid even less. A couple of hundred points worth standing around up the back doing nothing while your 30 point per wound 3+ save models charge up the table into a hail of fire is a tax, 500-600 points worth charging up the table into a hail of fire while your 30 point per wound models drop in from reserves to take out strongpoints/isolated units or sitting back and providing covering fire over their approaches is not. Don't pay the tax, play them in a way that they are must kill units for your opponent. Use them as charge screens for your close range firepower, tag their firepower in combat (bonus points for double gun dreads), threaten their objectives, block out areas you don't want to see enemy deep strikers in, etc etc etc. They might not get the job done every time, or even ever, but the actual job is forcing your opponent to kill them instead of something else. Every enemy unit directing fire at tacticals is a win for you (so long as you're not giving them shooting opportunities they otherwise would not have had), so make it happen, don't wait for it to happen. Even better, make them use reactions on tacticals.

I would love to see how tactically would be perceived if they got +6 breaching while FotL'ing. 40 Shots from a 20-man squad would average out to 4,5 AP2 wounds against anything T7 and below. Nevermind, would immediately step them up to one of the best units in the game. However, this would in turn make tanks and transports better... which are in a difficult place right now

As an Iron Warrior I looove my tactical squads, take Hammer of Olympia and unleash a withering hail of shrapnel onto the enemy, also Grav Mauls for extra spicy anti tank capabilities.

As a Fists player taking some Tacticals is totally fine. Sit on objectives, soak up fire, take some wounds off of enemy infantry with massed fury of the legion. I think tacticals have a decent amount of firepower for their price so long as they hold their ground and use Fury.

I just really like how they aren't as boring as they are in 40k. Also you guys rock 👍

Tacticals win games!

"breachers are good if you give them a landraider". Dude what?

What missions are you playing out of curiosity?

I'm not sure there tax tbh. When I started using them I thought that. After playing few games I started to add more gear to them. Chain bayonets and auger scanners go along way to help my army out.

Tacticals are a tax if you don't have a plan for them. If you can find a place for big squads in your plan, they take buffs very cheaply and can trade fire effectively with a surprising number of things while being an extreme drain for your enemy to remove ahead of your more damage-dense units.

What's a Tactical Squad? Are they the guys on jetbikes with volkite culverins and Line? If so, no way - they're the best! (Can you tell I play White Scars?)