Where Did Gnosticism Come From?

No video

Where Did Gnosticism Come From?

Рет қаралды 4,622

Early Christian History with Michael Bird

Күн бұрын

Пікірлер: 84

@earlychristianhistorywithm8684 5 ай бұрын

Thanks for watching the video, I hope you enjoyed it, Gnosticism is complicated and there’s so much to explore! Don’t forget to subscribe, share, and leave a comment or question below.

@FollowersofTheShepherd 5 ай бұрын

I love the style of this video. Thank you for the information!

@ryanparris1021 5 ай бұрын

Iam a little new to understanding this subject but I’ll be watching the series for sure thx

@andrewzook8648 5 ай бұрын

Well, before this video and because I haven't read nearly enough scholarship on the subject, I would have pointed to Acute Hellenization as the primary origin. But you've scrambled my categories! I've learned something new and therefore I'm inclined towards 2-3 of the options... which makes it more complex, but as with most things in life, simple answers rarely capture the full truth... so most likely there Are multiple sources or beginning points for gnosticism. Thanks for the expanded perspective!

@earlychristianhistorywithm8684 5 ай бұрын

Yes, there's a lot of theories on this.

@Yan_Alkovic 5 ай бұрын

I mean it's all gonna come down to which Gnosticism we're talking about, right? Hermeticists would definitely trace a part of their heritage to Hellenic Egypt, Sethian Gnostics - to Sethians, Barbeloites to something else, and so on.

@Yan_Alkovic 5 ай бұрын

@@robertwarner-ev7wp Interesting. Are they the guys who see "gnosis" in Paul's teachings that were clearly all about the grace of God given to us willfully by God?

@Chounubis 2 ай бұрын

An interesting point. To add to it: the same inner tensions which gave birth to Gnostic-systems are universal to man. Despair at the sheer imperfectability of man, and the cosmos, is not something new and has been there for thousands of years. Not surprising, therefore, that the Greeks, Egyptians, Jews, Babylonians/Assyrians, etc., etc. all arrived at (independently or otherwise), or had some acceptance and openness to, Gnostic views.

@derekcarstensen9134 5 ай бұрын

It started on the Ophra Winfrey show 😂 but seriously history repeats itself what I mean, same attitude

@earlychristianhistorywithm8684 5 ай бұрын

Oh, yes, that Chopra, totes cray cray dude.

@SibleySteve 5 ай бұрын

Great video! I was loving the part about the post-Jewish and post-Christian or adjacent sect that threw everything away and got creative, reminded me of my adventures in Deconstructioneanism while reading the Decon canon (Bart Ehrman, Elaine Pagels, John Shelby Spong, et al). I can see how some of these hybrids are similar to hermeticism in the way they splice the gods to create a new way. I have to say after reconstructing in orthodoxy I am a little paranoid of Gnosticism and its appeal, or perceived Gnosticism. These videos are amazing for helping me see that it’s not what I thought it was. Now I’m a little afraid to read Philo though. I’m a bit impatient with spiritual elitism and its secret handshakes. Thanks !

@Monkofmagnesia 3 ай бұрын

Gnosticism must predate Christianity as we have Gnostic versions of Plato which predate the Gospels.

@konmichailidis6240 5 ай бұрын

Thank you for this video series. I know little about the Kabbalah, but is there a connection between that and Gnosticism? I know that there is a modern Kabbalistic influence on Messianic (Christian) Judaism in some quarters. For example in the idea of emanations from God, and that Jesus is one of those and not God. It is a way that strict monotheists - as opposed to Trinitarians- find to maintain their faith in a Rabbinic Judaic view of the Shema of Deut 6

@earlychristianhistorywithm8684 5 ай бұрын

Glad you liked it. I know a little about Kabbalah, but not much.

@hermanhale9258 2 ай бұрын

There's a connection between Kabbalah and Satanism.

@danemiljoshua 5 ай бұрын

Great Video!

@Bluesruse 2 ай бұрын

Our earliest canonical writings come through an orthodox redaction and censorship, yet still manage to remain so utterly "gnostic" that it's hard to imagine "gnosticism" wasn't in fact the _original_ form of Christianity; and the more interesting question is: Where did the "orthodoxy" come from, and why and how did it eventually win and replace the original form?

@Bluesruse 2 ай бұрын

And likewise "people who invent myths against the truth" could perfectly describe our canonical gospels and their authors as well.

@smillstill Ай бұрын

Yes, with both groups doing rationalizing to deal with questions and coming up with different answers. Orthodox was trying to enforce monotheism with the Trinity after worship of Father, Son and Holy Spirit in Matthew and Didache and supporting the Old Testament, while Gnostics were creating polytheist hierarchies and rejecting the OT. So, one might see the orthodox as more Jewish and the Gnostics as more Hellenistic in their approach to smoothing out doctrinal issues.

@davidmccarter3429 3 ай бұрын

Good to hear from a learned and judicious mainstream Christian scholar. I thought your arguments for an origin in Hellenistic Judaism were persuasive and, within the limits of this medium, well documented.

@chuckthompson5724 2 ай бұрын

I just realized your bumper music is the same as the theme from 'Call the Midwife'/🙃

@smillstill Ай бұрын

Orthodox Christianity movement was trying to enforce monotheism with the Trinity after worship of Father, Son and Holy Spirit in Matthew and Didache and supporting the Old Testament, while Gnostics were creating polytheist hierarchies and rejecting the OT. So, one might see the orthodox as more Jewish and the Gnostics as more Hellenistic in their approach to smoothing out doctrinal issues.

@gregory_bloomfield 5 ай бұрын

Are you familiar with Margaret Barker? She writes that Gnosticism comes from the First Jewish Temple. She says that King Josiah had a scribes that went in a changed some things in the Torah and basically rewrote it. Her books are incredibly interesting stuff.

@earlychristianhistorywithm8684 5 ай бұрын

Barker's stuff is something of an outlier in the academy. Some of her stuff on angels is interesting, but she's heading into almost conspiracy-level theories at some point.

@James.chalmers 4 ай бұрын

Too many hate on gnostic teachings I actually think it’s closer to original Christianity than the modern view.. I always found the bible taught that god the father is greater than Jesus and separate and the spirit came after Jesus… yet 90% or more of Christian’s believe in a trinity and the gods are 3 in 1…

@hermanhale9258 2 ай бұрын

All Christians believe in the Trinity. The rest are in cults.

@radiosophea4553 Ай бұрын

The trinity was decided at a council of christian leaders in I think 200 ad

@rogersacco4624 8 күн бұрын

We are people existing in and from our time and place.Countless influences the ancients didn't think through like in The Self Ilusion by Bruce Hood.If there were an afterlife no one would be the same taken out of their time and place

@radiosophea4553 Ай бұрын

Hi what about Alexandria?

@k20t30pl 13 күн бұрын

Agnosticism aligns with all other ancient Eastern religions. They all have a similar narrative that led to multiple gods. The Roman Church went out on its own.

@adammarktaylor 5 ай бұрын

One thing I noticed when looking into this before is that the traditional "Heresiarch" model seems to go back to Heresiarchs who began as students of John the Baptist. I wonder if there is a view that the Gnostics originated among some of John the Baptist's followers? The Mandaeans, as well, claim to come from the followers of John the Baptist, regarding him as a great prophet but Jesus as a false Messiah, and their doctrine is very Gnostic.

@marcus8710 3 ай бұрын

Lots of secret societies and cults are exactly Gnostic/hermetic at bottom, and they all have the same weird twists to them.

@teologizando 5 ай бұрын

Awesome video! It’s interesting that gnosticism may be another jewish sect. Never thought of that. Thanks a lot Dr. Bird

@earlychristianhistorywithm8684 5 ай бұрын

I wouldn't say a Jewish sect, but a diverse movement rooted in intellectual convulsions in Hellenistic Judaism.

@Lovingkindness. 5 ай бұрын

Gnostic: knowledge comes by the spirit of truth. Like Paul taught. “By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit” Believe Jesus: “the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things”. Amen 😊

@infotruther 5 ай бұрын

You have been lied to.

@Lovingkindness. 5 ай бұрын

@@infotruther Haven't we all!

@igorlopes7589 5 ай бұрын

The gnostic writtings are from the later second century and third century, while the NT is from the first century. If I had to chose between either of them I would chose the NT

@Window4503 2 ай бұрын

@@Lovingkindness.No. Paul wrote against it. It is only so called knowledge. It’s worthless

@Lovingkindness. 2 ай бұрын

@@Window4503 to be clear, you are saying that knowledge does not come by the spirit. I believe the only way to know God is by the logos (not the Bible), the spirit of truth that Jesus sent to us when he ascended to the father. The carnal mind feeds the flesh with the great lie of the serpent. Figuring out God with our natural brain apart from spirit always fails.

@PirateRadioPodcasts 5 ай бұрын

With 900 Years of Greco-Buddhism to explore, there's a LOT of detective work to be done.

@earlychristianhistorywithm8684 5 ай бұрын

Yes, the Greek-Buddhist interface in Bactria (Afghanistan and India) is a fascinating topic.

@PirateRadioPodcasts 5 ай бұрын

@@earlychristianhistorywithm8684 Aye. Carrying clear on through to MANI's attempt @ his own syncretic version of an AXIAL age religion. Too bad his HEAD ended up on a pike.

@hermanhale9258 2 ай бұрын

Where did all the female characters come from? Not from Jewish. Had to be from pagans with female characters in their religions. Barbelo is the "Rosebud" of the story. DeConick and Thomas Gaston say Egyptian origin. I have not read their articles, but it seems like the first place to look.

@victormeza7859 5 ай бұрын

GNOSTIC. KNOWLEDGE COMES FROM MAN. WISDOM COMES FROM GOD. BUT EVEN THE MOST INTELLIGENT CAN BE DECEIVED. IE. ADVENTIST, JW

@Lovingkindness. 5 ай бұрын

@williambrewer Ай бұрын

Thanks for making the video! 1 John is not anti-gnostic. I don't think it's addressed in 1st John. 1 John is against the deniers that Jesus was the Christ. 1st John is anti-Jewish*. * The Christ-rejecting Judaism as seen throughout the book of Acts.

@TheMahayanist 5 ай бұрын

Where'd it come from? The letters of Paul.

@user-fd6tw2rw8z 5 ай бұрын

I am surprised that having huge fights against the evil, Catholic Church still exists in its origins. My Catholic Church is my only way to as my Lord Jesus, my saviour, my redeemer,my God . Thanks a lot for sharing your thoughts.

@PatTap-og7he 3 ай бұрын

You all keep thinking gnostics are about scriptures and dogmas with rituals and traditions. You really need to look far outside of a different box.

@hermanhale9258 2 ай бұрын

He didn't seem like he was thinking about Gnostics, much. Just about Jews.

@jodyayers4592 5 ай бұрын

The Day of Reckoning 5Come, O house of Jacob, let us walk in the light of the LORD. 6For You have abandoned Your people, the house of Jacob, because they are filled with influences from the east; they are soothsayers like the Philistines; they strike hands with the children of foreigners. Isaiah 2

@hermanhale9258 2 ай бұрын

Is that "shake hands", really? Because strike hands doesn't mean anything.

@JohnHoulgate 5 ай бұрын

According to the wiki on Valentinus, his teacher was a man named Theudas, who was a direct disciple of Paul. He claimed his Gnostic teachings came from Paul. I subscribe to the narrative that the proto-orthodox gospels were essentially Roman propaganda, written by Flavian scribes. They were obviously written by very well educated men and used to spread "the Good News" by word of mouth. However, I speculate that the proto-orthodox scriptures were not enough to keep the more affluent people, few there may be, satisfied and engaged. They needed something of greater depth and dimension. So, the Gnostic teachings emerged later to be dismissed as heresies by Bishops, seeking greater unity among the burgeoning communities of Christians.

@earlychristianhistorywithm8684 5 ай бұрын

The Gospels are pro-Roman Flavian propaganda, with an amazing knowledge of Jewish scriptures and interpretive techniques, where the Romans kill the hero of the story. You might want to think that one through.

@JohnHoulgate 5 ай бұрын

@@earlychristianhistorywithm8684 What you just said agrees with what I said. What did I not think through?

@igorlopes7589 5 ай бұрын

@@JohnHoulgateThe fact the authors of the NT know a lot of things about judaism show it wasn't written by Romans, but by the first century jewish christians. The authors of the Gospels also show a considerable knowledge of the geography of the Holy Land

@JohnHoulgate 5 ай бұрын

@@igorlopes7589 The Romans conquered Judea in 63 BCE and the Gospels were written sometime after 60 CE and probably later. The Septuangint was written from the 3rd to 1st centuries BCE. That means there was plenty of time for Greek-speaking people to get to learn the geography and the Jewish scriptures without learning Hebrew. Also, historians like Josephus and Philo were Jewish. Josephus, himself, was a Galilean.

@igorlopes7589 5 ай бұрын

@@JohnHoulgate Romans weren't interested in learning what they saw as a savage barbarian culture, neither were the greeks

@deewesthill1213 5 ай бұрын

Reality makes the idea of an evil creator believable.

@xBurzurkurx 5 ай бұрын

You know the world is owned by Ha'Satan and all the evil forces that are hostile to God, right? You think that could be also believable especially considering the fact that that is literally the reason The Bible itself gives for reality being this way? What about other religions? Is Odin also then an evil bastard Creator? Zeus? Cronos? Or should we meet up at Abzu's place with bats and shanks to teach them a lesson? No... I know, Anu. Definitely Anu. Or are all these guys and their garbage names used conveniently and shamelessly to constantly discredit the statistically most persecuted demographic of people in the world and in history; Christian's...? Heretical rubbish that's easily disprovable.

@hermanhale9258 2 ай бұрын

But would Jews demonize Yahweh?