“Casual” definitely depends on the play group. For some of us boomers EDH is the only place we get to play some of these older, powerful and yes expensive cards. But we grew up playing them and it’s always been apart of the play experience

As many have pointed out, a lot of it is deck and context dependent. If you're running a Mana Crypt in a Tymna/Thrasios deck, that's most likely not going to be casual. If you're running a Mana Crypt in a mono green Hua Tuo equipment tribal voltron deck, knock yourself out, in fact go ahead and throw in that proxy of Mishra's Workshop too while you're at it because your deck will likely need it to be on the level of precons.

I think there is a critical mass to all of them. I don't really care if my opponent plays a demonic tutor over a diabolic tutor. I think the amount of tutors and what they fetch is what is important. If the tutors are used to savely get combos early and every game, I think it is not really casual anymore.

Me and my friends like to play decks that we consider casual, win with combat damage usually. However we all agree that the game is just way more fun when you consistently have your colors of mana, so proxy your ABUR duals, shocks, and fetches all day. Losing to land variance is an important part of magic, just not for my EDH group.

On the lands point I like the chart you brought up in a previous video which was no off color fetches and no cards over $100 for what is not casual. Fetch lands are definitely the most powerful lands in the game but they need synergies to be good

I feel like there's not really a divide between casual and competitive cards, but casual and competitive decks. Like you said, dropping a Gaea's Cradle in unicorn tribal isn't super competitive. Gauging how good a deck is can be hard, especially when playing with people you don't know. That's why I usually have a couple different decks on hand and let one of my opponents pick what I play when with strangers. I have a more tuned esper deck with Tivit and some mean 2 card combos, but they're usually mana intensive(probably a 7 or 8 just because of the amount of tutors and I have been thinking of going full send by adding Consultation/Thoracle). I have a Kalamax deck, that if I combo off I can drop one person, but is really susceptible to interaction(maybe a 6? It's where my Dockside is, but again, counterspells or removal will lock me down without much response). And I have a stock Tyranid Pre-con, it's fun to play and doesn't feel oppressive when it goes off(Solid 5 I think, the 40k pre-cons are a bit more tuned than a lot of others).

Okay, I used to play Legacy, so I have dual lands. What am I supposed to do with them if I can’t play them in casual games? Look at them? I have a buddy who has a Cradle and Serra’s Sanctum in their GW Soldier deck… the rest of the deck is, like, 100 bucks. *** Personally, I don’t think there should be any distinction between cEDH and casual EDH. But that aside, the distinction should be in HOW a deck plays, not individual cards that it plays.

I dont think any card isn’t casual. It’s mostly about the deck themselves; for example, I built my buddy a 50$ Tetsuko deck where the wincon is labman and thassas oracle

I don’t think free spells are casual, it upends one of the easiest ways to threat assess and forces you to overthink about what your opponents might have. Plus like you said the free spells also cost a lot and that adds to it as well

It’s my belief that we can’t rank power on the card alone but the deck it’s in. Seeing mana crypt in a 7 mana commander may be ok with a lot of us compared to a cheap commander running the same card. I just built a 4 color deck and it has a ton of fetch lands and I’m constantly upgrading the mana base to improve it, but the deck is based around attractions and dice rolling, a very casual thing. While we can get an understanding and recognize a cards power, the context and kind of deck (as well as the playgroup) determines if a card is too powerful for casual

I think, as others have said it just depends on what the deck is doing. If you are aiming to win on turn 3 or 4, your deck isn't casual. If you are playing Gishath Sun's Avatar, I don't care how much money you've put in the deck, or how many OG duals you have, you're deck is casual.

I play with a group of players every week, and their decks are not casual. But that does not bother me at all. My decks are built on a budget but each week I love the challenge of trying to beat them. Which improves my game and we do have a laugh, when someone plays powerful cards and then I counter it (I do play a lot of counters and removal because my decks aren't as powerful). I love improving my decks each week, so one day I will win!

This is always an interesting topic for discussion! I'm curious what's your definition of "casual" for the context of the video? If it's simply anything non-cEDH, I'd argue that *most* individual cards can be casual. It will power up the deck sure, but individual cards won't make turn a deck into cEDH.

I think we can really separate, let's say, controversial cards that raise eyebrows in casual commander, in three groups: 1) Really fast value cards: Mana crypts, Necropotence, etc. Things that go off for free and give you three or four turns of leg up the rest of the table early on. 2) Really unfun game stalling cards: Vorinclex, Winter Orb, mass land destruction, stuff that prevents players from actually playing the game 3) Really big bombs: Expropriate is the best example I can think of The way my group usually handles this is that, as long as the wincon of the deck isn't a cEDH special, we are fine with every deck having one big bomb or one really unfun card, but nothing more than that. Mostly coming from the fact that way every player has a way of either finishing the game outright lategame, or having an amazing comeback. Free value cards are the most awkward though, because they don't have the "late game stuff happens" clause on it. Similar to how trying to cheat out a Vorinclex or Expropriate early on feels kinda wrong, also does to put a bunch of free mana turn 1

The way you talk about Gaea's Cradle with Unicorns is how I feel about Golos. My playgroup a few years ago only had 1 or 2 ppl with him and when I finally found the way I wanted to use him he got banned 2 months later. I still play the deck cause I find in an unjust ban and just rule 0 it with everyone. I love it cause I rarely win with it yet enjoy how I play/built it.

So i run thassa's oracle in my pir and toothy deck. There are no draw combos in the deck but i do draw a lot of cards and if the game goes long there is a strong possibility ill end up decking myself. So if i do win with it its not till turn like 10+. Whats the general opinion on this?

Someone I played with today got mad at me for playing a Krark and Sakashima deck, apparently they are "cEDH commanders" lol. I'm a bit curious what other people think, can an deck be built as a cedh deck without many cedh cards? For example, the one I was using had no tutors, mana positive rocks (besides sol ring), extra turns, or cards over $30.

My playgroup is in a weird spot, we're not running a lot of tutors, infinite wincons, or stax cards, but we're still running a lot of the cards mentioned in this video. I personally don't use the free counters or any sort of extra turn spells, but others do. I'm using a Yavimaya Cradle in my landfall deck, but it only ever helps with mana fixing. A lot of other people here mention speed, and I agree, not just on individual cards but how they interact with the deck. Of course, that also depends on if your playgroup is using suitable responses because IMO people don't run enough removal, especially in casual.

Context on use does seem to be a major factor. I'm trying to make a janky bears with undying tribal deck happen and I thought I'd sure it up a little with some strong cards because I think otherwise it'd be too weak and ineffective otherwise to do much of anything.

For me i have 3 general metrics for casual or not. How much fast mana do you have (good mana rocks and good duals so sadly the ABUR dual lands do come into the equation here), how consistently and quickly does this enable your win con (tutors for the most part), and how much free interaction do you have? Consistency, speed, and ease of protection. Any deck can realistically be competitive if it has a surefire wincon, that can be tutored, and ways to amass the required mana quickly. This is also why when I proxy my lands I proxy the shock lands instead of the superior ABUR duals

Some cards are fine in some decks. Zur and running for Necropotence is usually overpowered. However, Necropotence in a Monoblack deck is different - the options a Monoblack deck has aren't the same. What usually tells me a monoblack deck is power is when the Lake of the Dead hits the field. Gaia's Cradle is a high powered card in any deck. High powered cards can be OK in a casual deck, if the deck as a whole is still casual and played that way. However, Growing Rites of Itlimoc/Itlimoc, Cradle of the Sun is a slower version of Gaia's Cradle, so it can be a better alternative, just like Storm the Vault/Vault of Catlacan is a slowed down version of Tolarian Academy.

I think you put it pretty well, it's all about how the card is being used if you have a gaea's cradle or Grim Monolith to optimize your spider tribal deck all the power to you, you need all the advantages you can get but if you're powering out a protean hulk to Tutor up your Mike & walking balista combo and have a pact and force to back it up you might not be playing casual

I do think your assessment is fairly correct, and driven a lot by the fairly common experience in commander of playing a mismatched power level game. Additionally, I feel a lot of enfranchised players have an understanding of what the higher level of power looks like (much less so than what the rest of the field is like) and what cards tend to show up there based on online content and personal experience. This makes it very easy to make a logic leap that if you see one card indicative of a higher power level, you might expect to see more in the deck. This naturally then plays into mid-game threat assessment where you are making further assumptions about what your opponents are capable of based on their displayed cards. In my experience, with rule 0 discussions to try and match power level becoming more common, this is being mitigated somewhat. However its become increasingly important to identify what commonly appears as non-casual level cards because the backlash of a rule 0 discussion followed by a perceived break of social contract for playing a "not casual" type card tends to have a magnifying negative effect. This expectation is sometimes met with rebuttal like "At what point is my description of my deck enough? Should I just carry my full deck list to make sure no one has a problem with it?" which is an extreme exaggeration of the situation, and people should use their own discretion and experience to temper how much or how little this is needed.

Is possibility storm casual? Especially if its one sided use like with mishra

That is an incredibly difficult question. I think what it comes down to is "options." I've been playing since I was 12 years old (36 now... Fuck...), there were times when I got out of the game for a couple years here and there, but I've always returned. When you play that long, you have a bigger collection that you can do more stuff with. I've recently started playing with a group where one player has been playing since 2017, one picked it up in 2020 through Arena, and another one started playing when Battle for Baldur's Gate came out. He has two of the precons from that and I think a New Capenna display. That's it, that's his collection, while the other two are still relatively new, but a bit more serious. I came to the table with two decks: One Esper artifacts homebrew (Sydri, Galvanic Genius) with an Elesh Norn, Avacyn 1, Darksteel Forge, Fact or Fiction, Force of Will... The works. The other deck was the Mindflayarrr-precon from BFBG, that I tinkered with a little, i.e. Traumatize, Bloodchief Ascension, Mindcrank+Duskmantle Guildmage, Dreamborn Muse, Phenax... Mind you, I've never paid more than 10-20 bucks for a single card and most of my good stuff, I got from drafting, traded, or got from boxes. Picked up along the way. To me, those are just my cards that have been sitting on the shelf for three years now, but to the other guys... I might as well have slapped them in the face or at least that's how they looked at me. :D I know, some of those cards are spicy, but I think just that thought - that somebody has access to cards like that and they don't - is enough to demoralize them. Know what I mean? Personally, I think a casual card is a card that they haven't found the right combo for yet.^^"

I actually play thasas oricle in a casual deck. Shes one of my win cons in a persistent petitionioner deck. I'm usually just trying to mill myself out so i have her jace and maniac. The other wincons are janky like coat of arms n such

it has alot to do with how far you can get in one turn... even if it doesn't untap during your next upkeep, even if it sacrifices itself. Having such a large pool of mana in turn 1 or turn 2 means you are already several turns ahead of anyone who is not ramping mana , you can play large spells and any deck that doesn't ramp can't even respond to you

I’m usually fine with necropotence in causal because usually in those games the person playing it doesn’t know how to use it right and usually just refills their hand

One of my friends very recently got me into mtg, very specifically commander, so my opinion might not be as valid, but I also think a huge part of it isn't just power and cost, but whether or not the card would be a no brainer include. I personally do not care what people play, probably mainly because the people I play with aren't playing absolute god decks (although some are def more fun to play against than others). That being said, alot of these expensive cards are something you just would want to include no matter what (at least in that color ftmp). Look at mana crypt for example. I personally dont think there is that much of a difference between the two. The thing is it doesn't replace sol ring, it's an extra chance to have that in your opening hand (or to just draw it). Like I said, idrc what people play ftmp, but I understand viewing things that are expensive and just a no brainer to include (even if they arent that much more powerful than cheap alternatives), as not really casual.

If I could I would go for the list made by the 'Play to win' channel (no positive mana rocks, no free counterspells, off color fetch lands, etc), but unfortunately because they are too many restrictions, it's hard to make or find a random playgroup that wouldn't require to make some changes to their decks and most people don't want to further edit the decks that they took so much time to make. So in a playgroup or in Magic Online I simply go for "No infinite/mld" since most people go for these already. The infinite one is pretty obvious, and even though I was fine with MLD at first, I do think it is powerfull enough where it can be included in any deck and have too much of an impact when you have board advantage, so I ended up agreeing with them. Although I'm still fine with "balance" effects like the new sylex that brings everybody down to 6 lands. When it comes to bans, I do want Gaea's Cradle and Serra's Sanctum to get banned. In the right deck, they are a one card combo that are too powerfull for casual games and have very little counterplay. I don't think cabal coffers is a problem because it's a two card combo that scales fairly and has more counterplay like thespian stage effects. Tabernacle and Mishra's workshop I don't have a problem with because they have restrictions and also don't scale as hard as into the late game. Necropotence I'm also fine with because in casual games life is a very important resource and cost triple black, and since you're not comboing off a lot of times you end up killing yourself. Extra turn effects are fine unless you're reusing them, which then I would consider them as infinite. And True duals are fine since they are no much different from shocklands, they only cost 2 less life. Finally I would also want sol ring and mana crypt to get banned, as they push the game too much in favor of one player making games less interesting. But banning sol ring means banning the face of commander and I don't know if that will ever happen. Mana vault and grim monolith are fine since without comboing off they are just ritual effects. Overall I don't think that the cost of the card should be a concern but only the powerlevel.

If getting into the casual vs competitive cards in any format it's going to come down to play style and deck construction.

The only reason people can even argue about the Duals being noncasual is because of their price point, but even that I don't think holds up. If we're playing a casual game, then it should be okay for everyone to proxy those duals anyway, so price never actually matters. The Duals are incredibly consistent pieces of your mana base, but that's it. Price point argument aside, all they are is reliable lands for many decks. I will admit my approach to this question is painted by other card games: I came to MTG from Yu-Gi-Oh, and hyperconsistency is the name of the game over there, even in casual tables. It's helped reinforce my approach that consistency (land bases, tutors, etc) are only as noncasual as the things they're enabling. Using a Demonic Tutor to fetch a Thassa's Oracle so you can land your game-winning megacombo perhaps isn't casual, but using it to toolbox through your deck for an Equipment that might be good for the current boardstate in a Voltron deck isn't. People are really just put off by the price-point, something that shouldn't matter in a casual game anyway.

There's more to it than whether or not the card is expensive and powerful. You've also got to look at the rest of the deck. You can't just toss a mana crypt into a precon without any other modifications and call it a powerful deck.

Concerning the fast mana we have rule zeroed that we only play 2 pieces of the broken acceleration like Sol Ring, Ancient Tomb, Mana Vault, Grim Monolith etc. We are very happy with that rule :-)

A lot of the cards that get into "not casual" territory get there because they are abused. If you get to tap Gaea's Cradle 4 times and now have 60 mana in your mana pool, that's crazy. Also, Force of Will is only really good against very high power decks, so that's generally fine.

The way I differentiate casual and competitive is if the card can win you games or slow down games for less than 3 mana, it's competitive

To me the litmus test for is it a good card for casual games is it fun to play against? For instance sheoldred the apocalypse feel bad for new players and casual decks that don't play a lot of interaction. I don't think sheoldred is oppressive strong as decks that use it tend to give symmetric card advantage. But it feels bad to be punished for drawing as you can't decline to draw at the start of turn. The other thing that I think defines things that are perhaps less casual are decks built on aggressive cards. I have a wyleth deck that my pod hates to play against since it finds powerful equipment and swings for damage as soon as turn 2 if I pull sol ring. The deck isn't in the same ball park as cEDH lists but the aggressive strategy makes it feel not fun for some of the players I play with and thus the game feels less casual to them.

Over the years I've played magic, I've found that the more I learn and the better I get at the game, the more fun I have. So when newer players don't have a good time when x or y happens, I would ask them the question- how much agency do the cards you chose give you in the average game? Also- isn't a casual player who is mad that they keep losing a bit of an oxymoron? Like, a competitive casual player? (PS- Cast Oona's grace/ prismari command/ blood pact targeting your opponent when their thoracle's etb trigger is on the stack.)

This had been the tough thing about getting into EDH at my lgs. I don't have much of a collection yet, but there are some players with wildly expensive and powerful decks, and they usually end up playing against me and a couple people with precons. I've played against Avacyn Stax, Turbo Fog Mill, Boardwipe Tribal Oona, anti-artifact Monogreen when I clearly said I was playing Shorikai Vehicles... and the rest of the table usually looks at me because I'm the only other one without a precon >.< It can be fun to actually take those decks down, but the problem is that I always end up dying afterwards, hero to villain style... I've actually had to take a break for a bit after the Turbo Fog Mill game... was almost 3 hours of running into fog effects while my other opponent was running out of cards but still coming at me for some reason XD I think it's less about the cards and more about the mindset when you make your deck.

If you just play Mana Vault and Grim Monolith as normal ramp in addition to Sol Ring and Mana Crypt it's totally fine. But if you start playing these 2 cards only to get infinite Mana as fast as possible with Power Artifact and Rings of Brighthearth, it's not casual to me anymore. So like you said with other cards it's the environment of the deck the cards are played in that make cards casual or not.

I think the major difference in deckbuilding for casual and competitive is the goals. I think if your building a competitive deck your goal is to win by any means necessary. While casual may include winning, it isnt only winning. Its bringing out some really fun cards, or cool cards of the theme of the deck. So consistancy isnt a strong point just so you can play a higher variety of cards.

I think I'm inclined to agree with some of the other comments. What's more important is what does the deck *do*? I don't think most people would care about a Thoracle win if it was in some janky deck. These issues stem from the simple problem that we're human and we don't always do the best at communicating what our decks do. You don't have to go into a ton of detail, but explaining how your deck functions and generally how it hopes to win is way more productive than "this is a power level 6." I main Ur-Dragon, it will never be competitive level simply because of the 9-mana commander, but I've tinkered it so much that it's about as close to a 9 as you can get it. Meanwhile, I have a silly white-black card draw/life-gain deck. It has some strong cards in it, but that's just so it's not like... a power-level 4. Compare both of those to the Gavi deck I just built. You can build Gavi as a really strong, stax and/or combo commander. I built her primarily as a fun, card draw/swing out with tokens strategy. But it still has Fierce Guardianship in there. I doubt people would have a problem with that because the nature of the deck is inherently underpowered.

With the mana rocks I think it is more about context.... meaning like if you have a way to make the rock tap/untap over and over and/or get infinite mana, then it's not casual, but if it is just in there for ramp then its casual XD

Speaking of Grim Monolith, is there really a reason to run that over a Basalt Monolith? Maybe there’s something for cEDH that I’m not getting since I don’t play it, but at least casually, Basalt Monolith seems like the better Mana Roxk between the two. Sure Basalt cost one more, but it produces the same amount and type of mana, and it’s ability to untap itself cost one less.

Why ban sol ring when I don't run it in some green decks? Especially the ones that mass enchantment and artifact destroy because some times treasures need to be toned down a notch.

I haven't really played that much Commander. I can easily see myself throwing in Thassa's oracle in a deck and would not of expected people to be upset over the $12 I bought. Even outside of a specific 1 card. I can see myself or a new player playing a game losing horribly/not having fun. Then looking up a deck online then suddenly next session we're the bad guy for picking a deck that people don't like. I think probably the best thing to do would just discuss decks/cards your playgroup isn't ok with.

I play Thoracle in a couple of my decks that just draw a lot as a safety net if I get close to decking out. Like in my Shorikai deck I’m not playing stuff that draws me my deck to thoracle, its just a in case this game goes long and I’m tapping/untapping Shorikai between turns so I don’t kill myself on deck out

Are we talking theres cedh and casual edh. Or is there casual commander regular commander and cedh?

I think that what is acceptable in a CASUAL commander game really depends on your playgroup and the pre-game discussion. My playgroup usually plays a lot fo the cards you mentioned in this video, but we all know ahead of time if we are wanting a level 5/6 or level 7/8 game. There is one exception. NO THASSA's ORACLE! Always injoy your videos. Keep up the great content.

It can win by turn four it just can't reliably do that. Any earlier and the blue players can't play cancel if they hit their land drops. If the blue players can play cancel then you can reasonably expect at least a bit of interaction is likely with whatever combo is happening

How you use those cards dictate the feel playing and playing against them. Add layers and fun 'mini-games' to the deck building process and any powerful card will not seem to make you the instant threat. For example, I had a Mono-Blue Spirit Mill (Kirin) deck that used powerful tutors to search for the two cards needed to make it feel like a scary deck: -Undead Alchemist (Zombie Damage = Mill = Zombie) -Artificial Evolution (Turn Zombie keyword into Spirit) The first game people were shocked that I would play strong tutors like Mystical, Blue Merchant Scroll, Spellseeker, Intuition and Long-Term Plans in a casual deck but after they saw the cards I searched for they weren't too worried. All in all I say if a player has a tutor but I know they don't play backbreaking cards such as C.Rift, Capsize Loops, Armageddon, Sunder or extra turns (etc.) then that's fine !

On the true dual lands, I think they fall into both categories for being very expensive and also very powerful. They can definitely be played in casual games, but they very noticably bump the power up from cheaper alternatives. Entering untapped is such a huge advantage over tapped lands, meaning that you're able to consistently play things a turn sooner than you would otherwise. It's important to recognise this when judging the power of your deck because many people won't play with this advantage and are effectively a turn behind you, but this is very hard to see in-game. I'm rambling a bit, but basically duals are a significant power increase to your deck and you should probably play them as tapped lands against newer players, or if you think your deck is maybe a bit strong for the table. Also, Thassa's Oracle can absolutely be used in a casual game if you're not using it as a winning combo with effects that remove your library. E.g. I use it in my group hug deck as a way to finish the game if it's stalled out and I've drawn through my deck organically over the game.

My thing with gaes cradle an elfball deck and it being casual is that your most likely already using priest of titania, circle of dreams druid, elvish archdruid and growing rites of itlimoc I don't see it being a problem because by the time it comes out for me because I'm mono green with my elfball deck is ill already have 1 of the 5 effects already on the battlefield before I even get my gae's cradle it depends on the deck it's in and how competive the deck is I also have no game wining combos either just a craterhoof, finale of devastation or triumph of the hordes which aren't combos just wincons and I need a big board already and it's really easy to rid of my board state

i started using some proxies in some decks limit of 3 per deck not counting lands and some of the decks bring the salt even without proies but non are wining before turn 5 and the fastest i have won is a turn 8 Blightsteel

For my play group with all my decks (I'm the deck collection/maker guy) I try to keep each deck in the 100-200 (but preferably less) dollar range. Proxies can happen but for specific decks and reason. OG dual lands are only available in our 5 color decks but you're limited in the amount of lands (30) as a since to "balance?" a deck if you take them. If a deck has a super busted commanders the deck will be gimmicky. I have a BW Ravos soultender partnered with tymna the weaver, but my deck is only multicolored excluding 2-4 artifacts that do stuff for multicolored spells. I personally removed/sold the super busted play for free spells.

I did have someone upset at my mana vault in Jans Jansen, even though it doesnt help me cast my commander, or put me much ahead and ended up hurting me more than it helped.

I think what makes a card casual or not casual is very much an interplay of the factors of power and excisability. As you have put it, both of these factors individually, can create the perception that a card is not "casual" either due to the power it brings into the game not allaying with what players perceive as casual or with players feeling that they priced out of playing cards because of the high price, thereby considering them non-casual. As for my own personal take, I think that both factor are at play but if I had to lean to one over the other I would argue that excisability is a larger player than power alone. If I see someone playing the OG duals, to go with your example for the video, in a deck my first instinct will be to perceive the deck as not very casual, just out of a gut instinct as my opponent just played a card which costs more than all my decks combined. Whilst if I get combod out by a deck which runs a budget of 50€, despite the fact that I could be far more powerful than the aforementioned list with the OG duals, I do not think I would categorise said last as not casual. But that are just my 2 cents.

Don't believe I can say much here but yeah it's more about what your deck can do. For instance playing a crypt and a monolith in urza is stupid good and not casual at all. While I play them in stompy eldrazi tribal with 12 mana kozolek as the commander. I have to play all the fast mana like crypt and stuff just to be able to play my commander and half the deck by turn 6 or 7 and half the time my commander is stopped by a 2 mana spell. It's more about what the deck does and how much you can get from them than anything else.

Honestly I follow your channel for a good time now. I've watched almost all of your videos and I disagree with almost everything you say, but nevertheless I watch and love the videos. No group is going to agree about what is casual or not, that doesn't matter, play to your pod. Be happy

I've always felt Mana Vault is a casual card. Mana Crypt is probably pushing that line and I would also say that Sol Ring is a much less of a casual card than Mana Vault is. In a casual game, a burst of 3 colorless mana that continues to hurt you on later turns generally isn't going to matter too much. You're not looking to combo crazy early in a casual game so the burst is significantly less powerful than in a competitive game.

I’ve seen thassa’s oracle too many times in casual pods. Last time I did I asked the guy before the game how the deck wins. He never once mentioned thassa’s oracle. Then out of nowhere draws half his deck, finds it, and does the thing. He later said “it’s a backup win con.” So basically he played the game out, waited until I was a turn away from victory, then pulled the thassa’s oracle trigger and swept the rug out from under my feet. Had I known he could do that I would’ve held mana up and countered it.

Usually my deck likes to use protean hulk to get out a mikaeus combo I have with walking ballista but I also have a combo with necrotic ooze but even though I have tutors to get my pieces my deck is not quite cedh it is probably in the optimized catagory

You speak about how you would rather have Sol Ring over mana crypt or mana vault, but the thing is, its not about having one over the other, when you can have both. You can play BOTH Mana Crypt AND Sol Ring in a deck, which makes thing very mana efficient and really streamlines the decks focus. You can only do this, if you got the cash however. That is why people are upset when they see a mana crypt, or any expensive cards such as that.

Truthfully, I have issues with a lot of the fast mana effects, however I unfortunately play with people who do not want to power down their decks and like playing intensely high level games, which means in order to compete, I have to play them myself. I find myself slotting Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, and other fast mana like Chrome Mox and stuff into a lot of decks, leading to anywhere from 5-10 slots in every deck being taken up whenever I build. I've brought it up numerous times, but nobody wants to play suboptimally like that. Its unfortunate, but all I have.

I only use thassa's oracle for my casual decks that just wanna draw my self out and most of the times only get a couple cards off it.

In my group, there is a lot of turn 5 wins, land destruction, infinite combos.. so it's justified for me to use ABUR duals, and other reserved list goodies especially when I typically run 5 color decks. It is funny to see everyone's reaction when I cast winter Orb..

I think the issue with the Gaea's cradle and using elf ball vs unicorn deck. The same is generally true of pretty much any banned card in a tcg. My opponent could play power 9 and it wouldn't matter if they were playing a janky deck.

As a commander player there are a few cards that definitely can stop a casual table feeling that I think the populace would frown at. Stasis and kismet are ones that quickly come to mind, neverynals disk with mycosynth lattice and darksteel forge is another that just leads to complete shutdown.

I don't consider price to be an issue at all. Some cards on for example the Reserved List are expensive but not broken in the slightest. And if they're unique and fun and you can afford it, go for it.

The thing about Grim Monalith, Mana Vault and Mana Crypt is they allow games to be locked out early. I play them all in my Lavinia deck, and can regularly lock the game out with Knowledge pool/rule of law or Lavinia on turn two or three and slowly beat everyone to death with a 2/2 if no one draws abrupt decay or the likes. Grim Monalith also goes Infinite super early in a ton of decks. The power level isn't so much about the card itself, it's about how early they allow you to win the game. My mono blue Urza deck can win so early and it's because these mana sources. But what my play group does is power levels, like if we are playing power level 9 decks I'll bust out Urza, or 7 I'll pull out Lavinia, but if we are playing power level 4 I'll pull out my Riku, which has a Grim Monalith but no combos for it. It's just to try and get a Landfall creature out early. So it really depends on the cards built around the other cards that make them powerful.

I think fetch-lands are casual when they are in the colors of your commander. Misty Rainforest is fine in a 5-color deck, or Simic, or Bant, but not “casual” in an Izzet deck. I agree with the overall assessment that the intersection of Power and Expensive tends not to be casual.

In our group, it usally if your deck have no combo do what you want, we don't mind about stax or land destruction.

So if my casual deck happens to pull off an infinite combo or an auto-win I play it and scoop on resolution to let the others continue the game, they are cool but I’m not wanting to just pull a free win and end what could be a fun long game in casual games.

Personally I believe casual vs competitive is simply a mindset on how to play and what you want to accomplish, since everyone is technically playing to win (outside of strategies like group hug) technically everyone is playing a form of competitive. Some strategies and commanders will work a bit better than others and really it's all about that. The Commander 2015 precons are probably the best example of this, Kalemne is voltron which is generally not a very good strategy so when at a table of Kalemne decks your Ezuri or Meren might be too strong but your Daxos might be alright and your Mizzix might be pushing it a little.

I'm surprised Cyclonic Rift wasn't mentioned. Instant Speed psuedo-boardwipe that gets *all* non-land permanents off the field and if you casted that (for Overload cost ofc) at the end of your turn you probably plan on winning the game that turn now that nothing is in your way. Not sure if around $30 for a copy is considered expensive for "casual" standards. I admit though, I do play it in any blue deck I play, usually bc there can be too many permanents on the board to keep track of and I can get a literal headache from trying to remember it all, but I haven't seen anyone in my playgroup *very clearly* not want me to play it.

Aren't dual lands in pre cons?

I always have been vehemently against cost as an indicator of power in EDH, since it usually only indicates supply issues rather than an actual representation of a card's power - the Reserved List, for example, has caused a small handful of EDH relevant cards to become inflated far beyond what they should be worth, but few of them are unique effects. Take Gaea's Cradle, for example - a Growing Rites of Itlimoc is only $20 compared to the Cradle's $1000 and is arguably a better card in many circumstances. There should be a distinction between cards (or better yet STRATEGIES) which are 'not casual' and cards which are 'not accessible' and a realization that the real issue anyone has with he expensive cards is not a fair evaluation of power, but an emotional response driven by envy.

For me, casual can't be in the same sentence with either Fast Mana rocks, Free spells, Return to Basics/Contamination/Blood Moon effets, Necropotence and Thassa.

i aim for casual with a competitive edge so i'll use stronger end lands and strong cards but steer away from super powered cards that seem to unfairly tip the balance. usually most of my powerful effects come from jumping through some hoops. i like the casual feel but i also dont want to be completely dead in the water against a cedh deck. i have a wide range of powered decks too to match the people im playing. but i have a lot more fun just playing out the games more than who wins so im personally fine with seeing anything in my opponents decks. my playgroup, we generally describe what power level of decks we'll be using before it starts giving people an idea of whether or not to play stronger or weaker, and prepares us for possible temporary alliances and such, stuff like that. when the super competitive player is busting out their dominating presence or game winning combo, they can often get shut down fast in our group because we will all agree their board state or whatnot needs to be shut down fast. ends up pretty balanced in that regard. if i were to approach what i deem uncasual objectively, maybe some of the super powerful + expensive cards would be considered, case by case, but no doubt for me, any cards that prevent the opponents from playing their deck. one or two, ok fine, but if their whole deck is designed around "i can play and you cant" then id say theres nothing casual about that. id be fine with it, but definitely not casual.

I have a force of will in a casual deck but it’s almost always just a panic button. The one exception is countering turn one sol ring.

Speed, stax, combos and win conditions matter most for my play group. If the two categories, power and price, directly benefit those things, they are usually frowned upon.

A card I think is a smoking gun for a more competitive deck is City of Traitors. I can think of a million ways most of these powerful cards can be in casual decks. You said it best, these decks are powerful, but still casual. I legit cannot think of a setting where someone is running City of Traitors in a fair or casual way. Maybe in a deck like windgrace that can recur it, but most definitely it’s for decks that need to get to a very specific mana benchmark to win. I’ve never seen it in a casual game

I played "Enter the Infinite" + "Thassa's Oracle" 3 years in my Thassa, God of the sea - Mono Blue - Fish Tribal. It had 3 Wincons (except for the fish creatures..): Expropriate, Time Stretch and The Enter the Infinite + Th'oracle. Since it always won with one of these 3 combos and never won with Fish combat damage, I finally removed all of these 3 wincons, Expropriate first, then Time Stretch, and lastly the Th'oracle combo. Now it's that super janky deck that will maybe never win again but I love it.

I like building my decks competitively so to be fair to my play group we actually added a house rule that says if you present a loop that deterministally ends the game, infinite mana -> torment of hailfire or mill an infinite number of your opponents cards for examples, or you trigger a card that says you win the game, looking at you thassa's oracle, then you win but the rest of the table plays for second. This let's the spike get their w but let's the rest of the group play out the game as if that person lost instead of won. It has worked great for us so far

If fetch lands didn't exist then I would say the og duals are totally fine in a casual environment. But I do think there is something to be said for not playing those cards if you are in a playgroup that started playing much later than you and therefore does not have access to these cards because they are now cost prohibitive (unless you want to use proxys).

I don't think that there are cards that are "not casual." I do have a pet peeve of sorts, mostly just for this format. I find mass-exile and indiscriminate exile effects frustrating. In a competitive environment, sure, that stuff's part of the game. Or even in a casual duel, it can be something challenging to play around or fight against. But the highlander deckbuilding restriction and the battlecruiser nature of casual EDH mean that often the use of large-scale exile effects gets rid of the cards I wanted to play, but doesn't kill me. One time, I was up against a mill deck that happened to mill away a card I'd never actually gotten to play before and had really been looking forward to. I was trying to figure out if I should ignore that and go for a backup option or if I should dig for a Regrowth or something. Then another opponent used Ashiok, Dream Render against me, milling away another card I'd really hoped to try out, and exiling my graveyard. I went from mostly having fun, a bit tense because my deck had limited ways to get those cards back from my graveyard, to just miserable. I lost the whole reason I was playing in that game. I wasn't dead: I was kinda winning on the board! That just made it worse, though. I felt obligated to stick it out and finish the game, even though I was having no fun. After some aggravating experiences, I now always ask myself if I'm happy with sticking around in a game where my stuck is getting exiled like that. I mean, stuff like Swords to Plowshares is fine. Or if I'm playing a Reanimator deck and someone shuts me down with Phyrexian Furnace or whatever, then so be it. But if I'm really looking to finally try and make North Star work and it gets exiled by Tasha's Hideous Laughter or whatever, then I'll just scoop and walk away.

I play whichever card I enjoy playing. If someone doesn't intend on winning by turn 3 or 4, but happens to draw the cards to do so, then so be it. A lot of how a game unfolds early on is purely luck of the draw. As the game goes on, the percentage chance of drawing (or tutoring) for the cards one needs to improve one's chances of winning increases across the board. Though I prefer to own the card for whatever reason, I think being in a proxy friendly group and focusing on building fun to play decks is key. Winning is fun, therefore, build to win.

Casual for me is about inconsistency. A Vorinclex on turn 8 is okay for me. At this point somebody should have an answer to it, even in casual. If your deck is build to cheat out a combo EVERY game before turn 8 or so, before a casual player might have a good board presence or a chance to win via combat, I don't think its casual anymore.

I think Force of will can signal the deck is a safety valve in more casual commander deck. being free means it could be in a tapout deck and just want to have the ability to stop the spell that ends up being something that massively alters the game like even just there to counter wrath of god. I think the most powerful counterspell in commander is mana drain and I dont think its particularly close. That being said the do think some people think "unfun cards" are not casual which seems to not fall in line with competitive and casual I think your definitions are on point to be closer to that. The trifecta of things people think are unfun are the major limits to being able to do things, so Counterspells, land destruction and discard. I do think the vorenclix falls into this catagory as land destruction of a kind. Tabernacle also lands in the unfun but not really in the realm of being a competative exclusive thing like force of will its a safety valve for the major go wide powerful strategy like goblins or elves, but if you have 1 big dude on the table paying 1 isnt a big deal your likely already ramping. Ultimately for me like you said its what your doing as a whole is what makes it casual or competiative. Like I think winning the game with some combo on deep in the game so like 8+ fine for casual turn 3 wins the definition of competitive. Isoncrin scepter fine until you put something absurd on it like I think fire ice is fine but mana drain or the spell that lets you untap your nonland perminants competative (drain is the just outside of casual here). I think seeing Cradle or Factory becaues there is a mass restriction to the card paid back for being dumbly powerful its rare for people to not being doing something competive or the deck going to likely end up kinda clunky. I think force of will is actualy the most reasonable counterspell in commander going back to that as its either very exspensive are bad for card advantage as I mentioned it was a safety valve in very powerful formats not so much its own power level, those formats all have brainstorm and fetch lands to get rid of these when the match up doesnt warrant it and do get boarded out fairly frequently in legacy. One thing I would point to is Sol Ring is basically the signature card of the format and is considered by many on the power level of the power 9 were the only of those cards legal here is Timetwister because of this and demonic tutor being legal it tells you this is a format intended for powerful magic as a baseline. This is a format that created truename nemesis. I came from a differant highlander formant were minds eye was banned (I think they believe they went too far with the banned list)

That mana vault powering out my turn 1 metal worker is /mwah/ i love my heavy played/ borderline damaged metal worker. Feels "kinda" neccessary in colorless artifact decks. With so many less options than colored decks, grim monolith, mana vault, sol ring, mana crypt, metalworker feel so necessary

I play alot of high powered casual magic. Many of my decks include the fast mana suite, og duals, and free counterspells, and what I've seen as a good indicator of casual or not is when people are playing cards so optimized they are only good in the highest echelon. I'm actually much more wary or annoyed if I see people playing mental mistep or carpet of flowers than force of Will and underground sea. There is a non casual implication when you fill your deck with the hyper niche meta cards.

Access is certainly part of it, though there are powerful combos that aren't super expensive. Dual lands are solid lands, but I would consider them ok in casual play still, granted they should be more accessible in my opinion. Mana Crypt can be nasty if you yeet out some three drop thing on turn 1 etc. So I can see why people dislike it. Something being casual generally depends on the deck though, most "non-casual" cars are usually combo pieces. Walking Ballista is a solid card, but it's not oppressive on its own, it's the other cards used with it that makes it a nightmare. Grim Monolith by itself is fine in my book, but there are so many ways to make it mana positive and create infinite mana and that's the issue with it. This is why being open about what you put in your decks is important, because something being casual depends on the context surrounding it.

its funny because I lot of my usual play group has your mana vault, mana crypts, friend was saying he's picking up force of will too, and every game has at least one of the two culprits fetchland into shockland haha. But I asked to proxy guardian beast for a mono black artifacts deck and was immediately shot down for trying to use a Reserve List card.

I personally think a card is no longer casual if it is powerful, expensive, AND makes the game too long or too short. Changing the duration of the game to match the speed of your deck is what makes every other player upset because some decks try to win in midrange, some win in the long range, and some are in the short game. Forcing the game into your window of winning the game with a very powerful card that also costs a lot of money is no longer casual.

One particular move I was very angry with was getting hit with a ninjitsu blightsteel colossus.

I think a big part of this is association. These Powerful but expensive cards are rarely seen in Casual Decks but often in Competitive Decks. A lot of people don't own Dual Lands or Mana Crypts, but when they google Competitive Decks or observe cedh games, they are in every deck. This leads to people associating duals and certain cards with competitive Decks. I think it has more to do with the mindset and Style of a deck. I try to break it down to "Competitive Decks are build to win, Casual Decks are build to play." A Card I accepted as a competitive Card is Underworld Breach. In all decks I played it in, it feels either to weak of game winning. If I play that card I Play 2 cards from my graveyard again, or I win the game on the spot. There seems to be no in between. So I would only play it in Decks that win with it. In every other Deck it just feels clunky and a little bit underpowered.

What's out for my casual tables: Efficient Combos (if any I would play clumsy or new combos) Tutors (other than basic lands) one of the reasons is efficiency, but the other is playing a deck with 100 to play with many cards vs many cards, and see what happends, not try to find always the same cards. Free Spells, specially free counter spells. If you can cheat the spell, without paying any mana, no matter it;s lifes, cards in hand, etc. That's a huge no, no. Fast Mana. I try to take out even Sol Ring from my decks, but I accept it in other decks. 1 Card of 50 USD, it's OK, 20, let's talk about it. Price tag doesn't mean power, but usually they are related.

To add more points of view to the discussion, casual-ness of a card is a spectrum, not b&w, and related with: -Money (afordable by many or not) -Effect (by itself, with other cards, inside the strategy) -Flow of the game Most of the really expensive card tend to be not casual because they are superpowerful in combination of the low number in existance, which explains why some old bad cards are so expensive. By itself: Some cards like gaias cradle, necropotence, mana positive rocks, syvan library, thassas oracle are far in the not-casual spectrum for me, because affects the game so much by itself in opposition to other more casual card. The same is for cards that in ralation with the same kind do an immensive amount of work like Gaias cradle, sky rocket over any othe land, or the free spells which jump over the restriction of paying for what you play. Does not need synergy with anything to be good, just by they own. There are other cards more dependent on the rest of the deck that tends to be less competitive. With other cards: some cards really need others to shine, like fetches + shock lands, you get 100% chance to get your mana right, no matter what in the context of 3+ color deck, while the game it was thought to be a restriction, so tends to be less casual. The same for mono blue urza, gaias cradle and so on... Context: There are cards which it's casualness depends on the strategy of the deck, for example tutors. If you are playing a frog tribal or something really cluncky I understand the need of those. If you gonna tutor for a straight win con like craterhoff seems not casual and natural. Same applies for me with fast mana, land destruction, taxes etc... -Flow of the game: This is even more subjective than previoua points. I like the game to flow, that everyone little by little developes her strategy (wide, tall, aristocrats, mill) with out necessarly winning, just enjoy what the deck does. So cards that really unbalance this flow (fast mana, og duels, insta win-cons) or let people stuck (heavy taxes) does not feel casual to me. Its like an old englishman poker game, need some tension to by raising by everyone to be tense, intense and fun. While writting these line I came with another approach, a rule approach. I dont find casual the cards that bends the natural restrictions that the game have told me that it should be. Like: -Spells cost some amount of mana or a fair price in relation with the original context (20 life, 1v1, etc) that should be fixed for edh context (singleton, 40 life, 4 players) which affects free spells and really profigable carda like mono blue urza. - Edh is a singleton format, tutors break that rule. - The cost and color of the card is related with the power of the card by itself and in relation with the card pool of Magic. There is a common consensus of the limit of what a 1cmc can reach to do, same for 2 cmc and so on. Not-casual cards tend to break the limits of what you spect for the cmc and/or color, like sylvan library, gaias cradle, neceopotence, fast mana, etc ... - The game finish when your life reach 0 by combat dameg or direct damage, or you are mill out. So cards that insta win easy like thassa or fast combo seems not possible with a beautiful game for everyone, not letting a casual enviroment to develop. Thanks for reading!

Honestly I think it really depends on how you play and your play group… out of 19 decks I have my buddy only hates a few and it’s because they lock up the board state (gaddock tegg or possibility storm) I think storm is hilarious but most people scoop to it because they don’t want to feel with the chaos. 🤣🤣 but all my decks with red run it instead of blood moon. So idk 🤷🏻🤷🏻

Casual to me means accessible - so yes the overall budget of the deck is key. In some of the groups I play with overall budget is low and, yes, fetchlands are seen as "uncasual" because the average player at the table cannot afford to play them / they'd represent up to 50% of the deck's value. It also means the goal is to have fun : deck strategy and overall synergies is key to decide if a deck is casual or not. A Thassa's oracle in a jank deck with very few tutors and combo pieces can be casual. It mostly depends on the play group and the communication prior to the game.