Which Secondary Ignition Probe Does It Best?

Рет қаралды 20,380

Жыл бұрын

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There are a number of secondary ignition clamps available; but what id the difference? In this video we pitch the PicoScope TA397, Hantek HT-25, Rotkee Cx1, and a piece of coiled wire against each other. Measuring secondary ignition waveforms with an oscilloscope is a great way to analyse how the coil and spark plug are performing, plus you can identify possible problems with the fuel/air mixture. We are using the PicoScope 4452A in this video and you can download the waveforms at mechanicmindset.com.
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Пікірлер: 109

@ulfg1409 Жыл бұрын

There's a PDF online from Electronics Today 1977 with an instruction how to make a DIY ignition secondary probe. If I remember it right, they suggest a maybe 2" wide strip of tin foil wrapped around the ignition lead, to that foil you connect a 1nF capacitor (different sizes can be used to adjust voltage, the same goes for the width of the tin foil) to ground, an a 1 megaohm resistor parallell to the capacitor. Then you just connect the scope to the tin foil wrap. Similar to the wire wrap, but with a way to limit the voltage = less risk of BBQing the scope. As far as i know the store bought secondary probes use this basic construction.

@MechanicMindset Жыл бұрын

Just saw this mate; I’ll check it out!

@juergenscholl2843 Жыл бұрын

Thank you Darren. You may want to capture the same ignition event simultaneously with all 4 probes connected to the four channels? You would avoid whatever might be caused by differences/changes between different combustion events. Another economy trick is to use a paper clip around the ignition wire, one of those that look like a butterfly where you press on the levers to open them. Then you connect your gator with the test lead to it. It will work as a capacative probe, like the pico, rotkee and hantek.

@MechanicMindset Жыл бұрын

I’ll give the paper clip a go! I like the sound of that. Yes for sure, I’ll follow up with a single cylinder test 👍

@amirhoseinkargar3733 9 ай бұрын

Ammazing and it even works on coilpacks a type that all four coiled packed in a black box and altogether directly sits on plugs

@robertfrancisco1193 Жыл бұрын

never took notice! thanks for the info .got it all setup now on my MP408

@aranhaydar9195 Жыл бұрын

Honestly the Rotkee seems to have the cleanest waveform. And it's more consistently detected by the pico. Thanks for the demo :) you definitely have the more useful + interesting contents on KZfaq. So i appreciate that. one small detail, i really would've liked to see a paddle probe and see how it compares. I've got one from aeswave and i think pico has a more expensive version.

@MechanicMindset Жыл бұрын

Thanks! I like your observation 👍. I have a couple of paddle probes and can compare them to this clamp plus the coin method etc. I’ll line that video up. Cheers

@sheerwillsurvival2064 Жыл бұрын

Old school we were taught check dwell, firing line , spark line. All where usable patterns

@MechanicMindset Жыл бұрын

My grandad had a Sun tester on the van for his mobile tuning business. All relevant stuff, lots to learn if you know what to look for! 👍

@sheerwillsurvival2064 Жыл бұрын

@@MechanicMindset yup had a old snap on back in 75

@YOYODiagnostic Жыл бұрын

You are doing an excellent job! Keep up the good work and always stay honest, that's what makes me follow you.

@MechanicMindset Жыл бұрын

Cheers!

@ThunderbirdRocket 11 ай бұрын

Excellent presentation ! Super helpful !! Thanks !!!

@masongray9046 Жыл бұрын

Daren what I like about you channel is all the options you give great ideas especially if your on a budget thanks

@MechanicMindset Жыл бұрын

I like we are all on the same wavelength, pondering the same questions. I’m grateful I get to share these experiments and enjoy doing them! More to come 😁

@stephanevaucelles6378 Жыл бұрын

hello, thank you very much for the demonstration

@MechanicMindset Жыл бұрын

Cheers Stephane

@donniejohnson7499 Жыл бұрын

Awesome video. Never seen the copper wire trick.

@MechanicMindset Жыл бұрын

Me either 😆. I’d seen similar and thought I’d try it

@wetleyrocks3092 Жыл бұрын

I thought I'd subscribed to enough diagnostic KZfaq channels but I've decided (after viewing several of Darren's posts) that there's room for one more

@MechanicMindset Жыл бұрын

Great you can join us! 😂

@arthurfricchione8119 Жыл бұрын

Darren thanks for sharing. If I get a chance this weekend I have the ROTKEE the Hantec and Micsig and AES wave U scope. Should be interesting. Nice shop you have there. Very nice job. Darren hope all is well 😊

@MechanicMindset Жыл бұрын

Cool, let us know how you get on! Hope to see you live tonight if you can make it 👍

@pinpointauto3091 Жыл бұрын

The best I've used is pickup coils out of distributors amazing waveforms, even Toyota coils

@beluxauto5968 Жыл бұрын

I strongly lean towards the Rotkee. That being said, I do own all the "nice" accessories from Pico however I have purchased two 2204's to use for the younger ones to learn . Mainly for understanding how and when to use an attenuator and get to grips with using a scope. For this I was looking at the Rotkee accessories. Good value for money.

@MechanicMindset Жыл бұрын

Awesome way to learn! Once you master something basic like the 2204, you can appreciate the specs of a high end scope. I’m loving the Rotkee probes 👍

@robertmobileman8304 Жыл бұрын

Good comparison, Rotkee is the one I would say here , clearer waveform, cheers

@MechanicMindset Жыл бұрын

Lots of 👌👌👌👌 for Rotkee. Cheers Rob!

@davidhardwick303 6 ай бұрын

The Hantek et al are capacitive pickups and measure the voltage on the line, the coil is an inductive pickup and measuring the current that flows in the line. I've got no experience with spark ignition, but maybe you could use both the further analyze the system.

@DJ-tn7vj Жыл бұрын

Ahh man D. You beat me to the ignition shootout.lol.you even made your own probe 😆

@MechanicMindset Жыл бұрын

You still go and do the video though dude. It all counts 👊

@weldingjunkie Жыл бұрын

Excellent video brother as always, my Rotkee order should be here soon got held up but it’s moving now spent $1500 lol

@MechanicMindset Жыл бұрын

Wow! Did you buy the whole catalogue? 😆

@weldingjunkie Жыл бұрын

@@MechanicMindset haha yup pretty much I figured it would be easier to sell it here then have it shipped all the time

@jimnugent4966 5 ай бұрын

Using the preset channel for configuration for the first two and a custom one for the Rotkee skewed the comparison test results. You should have revisited the first two and using custom settings it might have been possible to get a better trace. The only one which showed the combustion adequately was the Rotkee.

@Roottech25 23 күн бұрын

do you need to do that with those plug extension cables? that seems like a complicated setup. and then the extension cables go attached to the spark plugs? could you explain that part better. I know you are measuring for ignition voltage signal how do you get those cables? finally, does the scanner provides that signal? I guess not ahh?

@timbrown6863 Жыл бұрын

This was standard training back in the day , firing lines are the same weather created by a set of points or an ECU , Raster and firing lines ask any Crypton of Sun machine man , however your doing a good job teaching old school, perhaps you should try AFR and how that applies to carburettor settings?

@MechanicMindset Жыл бұрын

Cheers Tim! Will see what we can do with AFR 👍

@markhills1830 Жыл бұрын

Would the wire coil not be a bit risky for your scope as it’s not grounded in the event of a lead arcing out and sending all that energy straight to the scope. Just a thought. Great comparison of probes here.

@MechanicMindset Жыл бұрын

Possibly. Not sure how much a risk it is without the scope being part of the voltage differential (ie if it’s not connected to chassis ground, current shouldn’t flow through it). I was going to try actually, see what happens! Thanks

@KingLoopie1 Жыл бұрын

I think the Darren mechanic mindset coil is the one for this hobbiest. I believe you'd get a much better waveform out of it if you used only 1 wrap. I think the additional wraps are picking up more noise like an antenna. Something I wish I could go outside and try, but all my cars are cop, and I don't have the extenders.

@MechanicMindset Жыл бұрын

Nice hypothesis! I was wondering whether more or less windings would be best. The clamp definitely picks up a lot. I think I’d need something to trigger to prove out the interference vs measured coil 👍

@mikethomas9544 Жыл бұрын

Great vid. If you don't fck around with it you will never learn its full potential. If you bared the other end of your wire and you had a reverse polarity if you put the clip on the other end it should turn it positive, what do you reckon. Love your work.

@MechanicMindset Жыл бұрын

Great idea, I’ll give it a go 👍 Cheers

@robertfrancisco1193 Жыл бұрын

have you ever moved the clamp on different places to see if you can get a real good waveform. i forgot to try last time i had sparkplug wires. my autel secoundary ignition clamp seems to work like your pico and hantek probable made by same co. i know with the 2in. copper sq. and the clamp i can get a nice waveform COP but, you must find the sweet spot.

@MechanicMindset Жыл бұрын

I haven't, I tried to get them all in the middle of the extentions, but I'll have a play around as you suggest. Cheers!

@marekhabel2493 Жыл бұрын

My vote goes to pico Others are not really bad either although after personally testing several units I noticed there is always something to adjust while pico is consistent. Now I keep the other units for cylinder reference duties.

@MechanicMindset Жыл бұрын

Someone else noticed the consistency; I wonder what they do different. I think as long as you use the same tool while testing, the comparison will stand out. I have an older Pico clamp which I did t compare here, would have been good in hindsight 😆

@alexybodom Жыл бұрын

Hello Darren I just got the Hantek but i still haven't used yet. I have one question do I need to "tell" my pico scope 2k series that I have antenuetor or I can just connect it as it is and read the wave form?

@tullgutten Жыл бұрын

No need to tell but you shown voltage on screen will be 1/10 of actual at probe voltage

@alexybodom Жыл бұрын

@@tullgutten thanks a lot

@sollykhan2385 Жыл бұрын

Another Awesome video, Darren, Thank you for all that you do, i personally prefer 'Home made things' we need to campaign for your promotion in a 'BOND MOVIE' as ' Q' (fittingly) with all these innovative Hack's , perhaps you'll get Global recognition with it's Fame and Fortune too, i can just picture you with Cubbi Broccoli (not the fat version of a Vegetable) but the producer of many Bond Films, and you continuously produce ever more Gadgets and design innovations, now that would be electrifying !! Lol 🙂

@MechanicMindset Жыл бұрын

🤣🤣🤣 That would be awesome. Bond could go round fixing P0300 fault codes

@sollykhan2385 Жыл бұрын

@@MechanicMindset 🙂

@madnadn Жыл бұрын

Hi Darren, great video. I would be interested on a review of the rotkee oscilloscope, maybe a comparison.

@MechanicMindset Жыл бұрын

Thanks! Hopefully I will receive one soon. I will be sharing the Ditex scope very soon 👍

@dalebabbitt6185 Жыл бұрын

Being a DIY'er I'm going for the Hantek. I'm thinking the Pico probe has a little cleaner trace but the Hantek has a usable trace even for beginners. Thank you!!!!!

@MechanicMindset Жыл бұрын

@@dalebabbitt6185 It does for sure! Not much in it to be fair!

@kevstrawmonochromeracing999 Жыл бұрын

Just getting into may be getting A scope. On checking 2ndry kvolts will higher kv give a better ignition

@MechanicMindset Жыл бұрын

@@kevstrawmonochromeracing999 Not necessarily. It could indicate a problem

@mikesabin8568 Жыл бұрын

Do you need to attach an attenuator to the scope when using these probes?

@MechanicMindset Жыл бұрын

Great question, I believe they have one built in. For the coil of wire best use one to be safe

@ashleyg3357 7 ай бұрын

An idea for a future video - Multispark Secondary Ignition Diagnosis

@MechanicMindset 7 ай бұрын

Like wasted spark?

@ashleyg3357 7 ай бұрын

Not wasted spark. Many modern engines have multiple injection phases and also now multi spark. Just as an example the Mercedes M256 inline six cylinder is multi spark unless you unplug the rail pressure sensor. I often find the pattern very difficult to interpret and I haven't found any information online on how to analyse this type of ignition

@MechanicMindset 7 ай бұрын

@@ashleyg3357 Ah ok yes, think the older straight 6 BMWs used to use it too. If I see it, I’ll show it 👍

@ashleyg3357 7 ай бұрын

@@MechanicMindset awesome, thanks!

@mike-yp1uk 11 ай бұрын

I like to see them under loaded snap throttle. I like the hantek for the price.

@MechanicMindset 11 ай бұрын

Hantek is great value and nice quality. I think as long as you have 2 of the same probes to compare, you’ll get the results you want. Mix and match probes, you could get misleading tests results 👍

@moulayediag3873 Жыл бұрын

good mind .... last experience frome you . do you have some online courses ?

@MechanicMindset Жыл бұрын

We do! Check out MechanicMindset.com

@user-mx4nk8jd4j Жыл бұрын

I'm using the hantek HT-25 with my 2204a. I'm wondering what probe I should use on Pico 6?

@MechanicMindset Жыл бұрын

I think the probe is x1000. You can copy the probe from Pico 6 Autmotive and load it in Pico 6 normal 😁

@user-mx4nk8jd4j Жыл бұрын

Thanks I'll try that.

@ford03369 Жыл бұрын

Have the rotkee probe did not get such a clean waveform what was the settings for that probe

@MechanicMindset Жыл бұрын

I just use the normal 1x setting and adjusted the voltage to get the waveform. What scope are you using?

@ford03369 Жыл бұрын

@@MechanicMindset hs402 and the pico 2004

@MechanicMindset Жыл бұрын

@@ford03369 HS402 looks interesting. What do you know about the wifi versions?

@ford03369 Жыл бұрын

@@MechanicMindset i have hs402 wired. The wifi one from all i seen is pretty awesome

@user-bp1sw1wh8e Жыл бұрын

there is no extention cable link.. have a nice day.

@MechanicMindset Жыл бұрын

Sorry, I can’t find any! Hantek to make them though. Thanks

@stiefbeen22 Жыл бұрын

Nice video, thanks. Why not clamp them all on the same cable for an even better comparisson

@MechanicMindset Жыл бұрын

I was going to show all live on the same screen but the time base wasn’t suitable, so just did it like this. Makes for a better thumbnail picture 😅. But yeah, possible some minor discrepancies between cylinders, this gives the broad idea 👍

@ulfg1409 Жыл бұрын

@@MechanicMindset Could have put them all at the same cylinder, at the same time.

@MechanicMindset Жыл бұрын

@@ulfg1409 I’ll follow up 👍

@nedhirdouiri Жыл бұрын

I think the is a reason why they all have a clamp to put on chassi ground.. This amount of voltage will create a spike inside the test leads like any coil ..so without that ground cable you will burn your scope

@MechanicMindset Жыл бұрын

Yeah I need to check where the ground connects, the voltage is quite low because I think there is an attenuator, but if there is a fault and the spark leaks, it should protect.

@AsifAsif-xk9nt Жыл бұрын

In my opinion mechanic mindset special tool is best one😜😜👍👍❤️

@MechanicMindset Жыл бұрын

😆👍Thought I’d give it a go, I saw similar tests on different components. Amazing what these things can pick up!

@nickayivor8432 Жыл бұрын

Thanks for sharing it 👍 SUBSTANTIAL Mechanic Mindset My teacher From Nick Ayivor from London England UK 🇬🇧

@donaldisrael7147 Жыл бұрын

Would an attenuator be required using Pico 2204?

@MechanicMindset Жыл бұрын

For the coil of wire I’d say yes. But it’s not needed for the others. I think it’s already built in

@ulfg1409 Жыл бұрын

Perhaps you may get away with not using one, but there's no downside to using it and it reduces the risk of damaging the scope. Might as well put it on there, better safe than sorry. Especially as using a 2204 implies your budget may be limited, wouldn't want to risk damaging it.

@ulfg1409 Жыл бұрын

@@MechanicMindset I mentioned a DIY probe in a separate post, using tin foil around the wire and a capacitor connected to ground. This gives you a capacitive voltage divider, about 1pF capacitance between the ignition wire and tin wrap, and 1000 times larger capacitance between the wrap and ground thanks to the added capacitor. This makes a ~1000:1 voltage divider, different sizes can be used for other attenuations. Those voltages may sitt be a bit high for a 2204, so attenuating isn't a bad idea. You never want to see the overvoltage warning when using the scope at its highest voltage range, you know it's more than the scope can show but you have no idea how much more. Could easily be enough to damage it.

@MechanicMindset Жыл бұрын

@@ulfg1409 For sure 👍. Thanks for sharing!

@tullgutten Жыл бұрын

As expected the pico one looks best. But now i wonder. Can we use the pico scope to check for RF signal from key fob remotes? And which way is best.. If you get a clean signal, remember to hide the registration of the vehicle so noone can find it and open it from watching (the soon to come video?)😜

@MechanicMindset Жыл бұрын

I suppose you would need a high frequency antenna to catch that and the scope to match.

@ulfg1409 Жыл бұрын

I think the automotive picoscopes usually have a 20MHz bandwidth. What frequency do the key fobs use?

@MechanicMindset Жыл бұрын

@@ulfg1409 315Mhz US, 433Mhz Europe/Asia

@ulfg1409 Жыл бұрын

@@MechanicMindset Well, then that's far out of reach of any automotive scopes I've seen the specs for.

@tullgutten Жыл бұрын

@@MechanicMindset sure enough my 22 year old Audi A4 B5.5 uses 433.92 Mhz. Didn't concider it was that high... Might be possible to get something with an scope with lower bandwidth but will probably be garbage signal but maybe enugh to tell if it is sending something at all. I have a 2 usd spy cam finder that screams when i use my key fob close to it and i doubt it uses any high bandwidth chip but just looking for some oscillation signal