Exactly

Yup

Exactly, but it’s crazy how this fictional debate and position is understood by so many but then real life examples like the Palestinians defending their rights and freedom is such a controversial topic lol

mages are literally kidnapped in their childhood the moment they are discovered to be mages. It's not a complicated, morally ambiguous conflict at all. There needs to be oversight over mages and they need to be taught to control their powers, but not the way chantry does it.

What about Vivienne? She proves that some circles can be good

It’s sort of like Fire Emblem Three Houses seeing how all Four sides, mainly the Empire, Kingdom, Alliance and Church are both right and wrong in how they want to improve Fodlan’s system or abolish the many laws and rules that have been plaguing Fodlan for years.

that's what an intelligent story does no clear black and white and in Inquisition you have another important issue which is how you use your power the Inquisitor has an enormous power people kneel in front of him/her what do you do? you use it for the common good or for yourself? Inquisition has even more deep themes like religion and the way you live religion do you believe do you not believe are you open minded are you a fanatic? heavy stuff.

At least you get to kill him

So the Chantry is at fault for both the oppression of Mages and Templars being addicted to Lyrium?

That is correct

Is the Gameplay even Lore Accurate in this Franchise? Like even something that is considered magical ability is vague. I am a warrior but I could also summon fire from the ground I shattered.

I completely, 100% agree with the second half of your comment! I went into that a bit more at length in the Horrors of Magic. However, I always like to caution against using Tevinter as a blueprint for what “right” looks like. The lack of a control system for magic in Tevinter is why we have the Blights, arguably the most horrendous cataclysm Thedas has ever faced. Not to mention the number of Tevinter mages we see throughout the Dragon Age franchise that use blood magic or just powerful magic in general to hurt, kill, and manipulate people. I’m just saying - I totally get your point, but Tevinter, the land of unadulterated magical chaos, is definitely not a great argument in favor of mage freedom when the opposing argument is, “mage freedom results in unadulterated magical chaos”, lol

You are correct. There is a society in Tevinter that is deplorable sure, but well maintained with laws and a social system in place. If they can do so with their mages free so can everyone else. Orlais has "Circles" like Viviene's that are nothing like other Circles in Thedas. Mages live almost completely free there too. No unadulterated magical chaos in Tevinter or Orlais to be found. There is corruption but thats everywhere. Mages do not need to be shacked and oppressed, they need to be educated. Moreover mages who are educated will not fall prey to a demon without the mages permission. Its completely inaccurate to say that a mage can be possessed at any point like the video pointed out.

Hey, thank you so much for the comment! I am, in fact, working on the script for the next DA video as of this morning - and the working title is V_DragonAge_TheQun. I appreciate the suggestion very much! -SJ

@@10pointsofslashingI’m so glad I found this channel when I did, all of your content has been amazing so far and I look forward to what you’ll do in the future!

How can anybody think the Qun could be a good thing? A society where personal freedom doesn't exist where you are only a cog in the system and the state decides who you are and what you can do? It's the absolute opposite of democracy it's a nightmare.

Personally think they are one reason why mages go mad. The way they treat mages, yes, it will mess mages up.

Don’t forget that Templars are also Lyrium addicts and if they use too much Lyrium, their brain will turn into cheese. And if they stop using Lyrium for a while, they’ll go through withdrawal symptoms and possibly die.

exactly. Kirkwall used to be centre of slave trade, pumped with Tevinter blood magic. They are still keeping the slave statues as a nice reminder and the place where the Circle si located is still called Gallows ... Kirkwall was showing you the extreme enhanced version of the mage templar conflict, the good and bad mages, the good and bad templars. It is one of the reasons I love DAII.

Yet, ever attempt to control mages is ultimately for the worst

It’s almost like Thedas is an inherently magical place and any attempt to quarantine or contain magic is doomed to fail…

Were caused by magic abuse* That's it. Think why. People here gave you some hints.

I like how everyone ignores the fact that is very clear that mages in control is bad in these games. With oppression and slaving being a main stay in such a culture. Elves before the veil, tevintar in both old and new(new tevintar was like every else with circles before mages where free and it turn into what is today). Also mages made the dark spawn when they where in charge so it not like mage society lead to anywhere good. I don’t think mages should mistreat but they sure shit shouldn’t be in charge of anything.

Hey, thank you so much! That means the world to me 😭 -SJ

@16:43 I am very glad that you acknowledge that Meredith is ALSO a shitstain for wanting to annual the Kirkwall Circle despite Anders having ZERO affiliation with them, thank you. But I want to add a couple things to really drive home how much Meredith deserves our (the fans') eternal hatred. A Dragon Age II player might very well think that Meredith only called for the Rite of Annulment in response to Anders blowing up the Chantry of Kirkwall, and was not bothering to contact the Chantry for approval about it. But that is incorrect. She already HAD done so, BEFORE Anders blew up the Chantry of Kirkwall. The player character can find out that offscreen, Meredith requested the Rite in-between Act 2 and Act 3, i.e. LONG before anything had happened to actually warrant it. Thankfully, the Grand Cleric of Kirkwall responded to her request how a normal, non-maniac person would, and denied it. So Meredith requested it AGAIN from the Divine of the Chantry (basically the Dragon Age Pope.) The only thing that changed when Anders blew up the Kirkwall Chantry was that Meredith decided to not wait for anyone's permission and decided to slaughter every mage in the Kirkwall Circle, despite the fact that not only is Anders NOT A MEMBER OF THAT CIRCLE as SJ mentions, which the First Enchanter (head of the Circle) points out to her immediately, but Anders (THE CULPRIT WHO DID IT) was STANDING RIGHT IN FRONT OF HER. She has such a boner for killing all the mages in the Circle that she doesn't even bother to arrest Anders to show the people of Kirkwall that the person who did this is in custody and is going to face justice for what he has done. She doesn't WANT the people of Kirkwall to calm down, she wants them whipped into a frenzy so she can claim "I had to do something! The people were panicking!" The destruction of the Kirkwall Chantry was Meredith's Cassius Belli (excuse for war.) She wasn't pushed to annul the circle by the killing of innocent people, but rather the killing of innocent people gave her the excuse she needed to do what she had been wanting to do for yeeeeeeeears

I think the problem is the Chantry, not really Templars or mages. Though some Templars suck a lot.

And then became worse than him and the guy who killed your mom by killing a lot more innocents out of spite.

Preach

Hey man! I appreciate the comment and I totally get what you’re saying - but as I’ve said before, any argument that points to Tevinter as the example for what “right” looks like just doesn’t work for me. The south has significantly more reported instances of possession, sure. But there are one or two more instances of world-ending calamity caused directly by the unchecked power of mages coming from Tevinter & friends, so… At the end of the day I think the crux of the “Tevinter has it right” people’s argument is this - in Tevinter, mages are educated more about what demons are and how to resist them. And this is exactly what I feel the Chantry should do as far as reform goes. To that end, we are in complete agreement. But unchecked power doesn’t work for me (or Thedas, as proven in game) and neither does oppression and slavery. As I said in the video, I think Thedas absolutely needs the south’s Circles for incredibly obvious reasons, but mages (and Templars alike) need to be educated more on the nature and resistance of demons.

He does indeed say that! And in that same breath, he says, “save that which mages bring themselves.” You know - from the Fade. 😉

@moonwitch616 This read, to me, as confrontational and accusatory and then it ends with, “but I completely, 100% agree with you and how you think the Circles should run”, lol. Dragon Age is wild 😂 I would like to clarify - no chaos in Tevinter? 🧐 are you familiar with the worldwide cataclysm that happened as a direct result of unchecked mage power in Tevinter? I mean, I guess you’re right in that the chaos of the Blight moved out of Tevinter and toward the rest of the world, in which case - did a Tevinter magister write this comment? 😂 For the Dalish, we have Merrill, a Dalish blood mage, whose actions would have resulted in absolute catastrophe if not for Hawke’s intervention, with the guarantee of at least one mage being possessed by a pride demon with or without Hawke. Without the assistance of a plot armored protagonist, this would have been a huge deal. I’d definitely qualify that (and her, lol) as chaos For the Grey Wardens, the systems they had in place allowed for the summoning of a literal demon army by way of blood magic… And I know absolutely nothing about Nevarra other than some weird death magic stuff happens there due to some unorthodox beliefs around spirits, so here’s to hoping The Veilguard sheds some light on their society and how they treat magic! Lastly - “…it is in fact rare” meaning it does happen, and “…almost always that mages choice” meaning sometimes it isn’t. And that’s exactly my issue with total mage freedom - all it takes is one time for somebody to do something stupid and we have the Blights or an entire city destroyed. Regardless, like I said - we’re in complete agreement on reform for the Circles. Separation from the Chantry and actual, in-depth education on the risks and results of possession rather than, “go pass this test. We’re not gonna tell you what it is though. Good luck with the demon lmao” are the two biggest pieces of it for me.

@@10pointsofslashing While I do with some of what you discussed to me it seemed as though your statements in the video were more absolutes. You said a mage can be possessed at any point as if to speak to their constant state of danger rather than adding the context of trained vs untrained mages and how often possession comes up. As for your comment itself Meril, some of the Grey Wardens, and some magisters/the Venatori are each isolated incidents that can be referenced but not be taken as a rule of thumb. I see no reason to mention any of them without also mentioning there is more evidence that these systems work under normal circumstances. They have worked for years. Especially in Orlais and Navarra. The fact that the Magisters allegedly brought brought the blight to Thedas is likely about to change in Veilguard, and it's better served as a cautionary tale rather than damming evidence weighed against modern day mages/events given that those responsible should be long dead. That event is well and truly irreversible and not at all connected to the modern conflict except to say that when magic is abused the result can be disastrous. Which everyone is well aware of. It's more relevant and progressive to the modern Era to cite the abuse, oppression, and fear mongering of the Chantry and how this has led directly to further abuses of magic. Magic won't go away it's here to stay no matter what course of action is taken so I feel like it's better to focus on how magic is received and spoken on by the public and the Chantry rather than the mages and their individual trespasses with magic. Once we have a plan in place for The Templars and Chantry to no longer have their boot on the necks of mages we can look at what mages have done through history to see what works and what doesnt.

@@10pointsofslashing I also wanted to say im not intending to come across as accusatory but what seems to be happening with the things you say come across to me as misinformation. For another example you also say that every time a mage casts a spell a demon could posses them. I have never come across this in the lore, and playing mages or seeing mages in game suggests that to not be true at all. Solas in Inquisition confirms this to not be true based on the information he gives to us about spirts and demons. The ONLY times I can think of where a demon possessed a mage without consent in the games is in Origins where the Circle falls to demons getting the upper hand over everyone as a result of the Harrowing. Once one mage failed he was able to then forcefully insert demons into others. The other time is when basically the same thing happens in Inquisition. The games have never displayed or spoken of mages being constantly or persistently stalked and tempted by demons each time they cast a spell even with the use of Blood Magic. Now if it says this in a codex somewhere ill be willing to concede im wrong but that codex would still be in direct opposition to what we see in game, and would come across more so as the devs not being able to agree on what to do with magic as the vast majority of magic in Dragon Age is used utterly consequence free. I actually really appreciate your work as a whole your video is very interesting and im grateful that you took the time to debate this with me in any case.

That was super cool of you to say - thank you so much! I appreciate your comments and insight too! The funny thing is, even if you are being accusatory it's totally cool, lol. This is a super deep debate in the Dragon Age world because it deals with so many serious real-world issues and emotions. Everybody is allowed to have an equally serious and nigh unshakeable opinion about it, IMO. Part of what makes us all love this franchise so much! So, no worries at all. I am sorry too, I'm just honestly super confused about this entire interaction, lol. We're both arguing for the same thing, we're just arguing about why we're arguing for it 😂 And I'm kind of lost - your first point was that these other societies all have systems in place that maintain order. I then gave examples of how those systems don't maintain order and you essentially responded with, "those are the exception, not the rule" - which is, again, my entire point...there are exceptions and that's why the systems don't work. It's like somebody goes out and murders a family, is tried for it, and the defense says, "well, you can't take this as a rule of thumb. Most of the time, he's not murdering people." The judge doesn't just go, "oh, word? All good, then!" And finally, I think you might be hyper-fixating on the verbiage there - the lore does indeed tell us that demons possess mages because of their mutual connection to the Fade. I'm not saying demons are chomping at the bit and sit around in the Fade waiting for mages to cast spells. Thousands of demons don't enter a que for possession every time somebody gets up in the middle of the night to pee and magically lights a candle. The mage does have to consent and I know that - what I'm trying to communicate is that that could very well happen at any point in time. Demons can, as we've seen so far, reach out at any point in time and manipulate otherwise strong-willed people into possession. It's terrifying, and that's what I urge people to consider.

​@@10pointsofslashing I agree. It is a lot of fun to debate these things. It makes being part of the Fandom more enjoyable. Im really enjoying this discussion with you. My points were that earlier you said that "mages can be possessed at any time" and "when a mage casts a spell they can be possessed". Both statements taken at face value are false because what happens for the vast majority of the time a demon is targeting a mage they resist as per their training Circle or no Circle, traditional or non traditional they do successfully resist that is a fact. If your statements are to be taken literally there would be chaos everywhere you look. You didnt provide context or nuance to either statement which is why I find them misleading. Yes im hyper-fixating on the verbiage because you leave the viewers with no choice. Both of those statements mislead without context. I also understand where we disagree the most. Its more wrong in my opinion to draw attention away from the everyday caging, suffering, discrimination, disrespect, and de-humanization of mages in Fereldon by bringing up idiotic accidents like Meril and the willfully evil acts of Tevinter Magisters/Venatori. By continuing to speak to magics potential danger without highlighting the rarity of these circumstances (which is what you were doing in the video) it seeks to garner sympathy for a pro templar stance when the fact of the matter is that magic isnt going anywhere and that Thedas needs to learn better ways to adapt on the mage and templar side. There will always be the possibility of a misuse of power in every society magic is irrelevant to that fact. Which is why no mater what Thedas chooses to do about magic there will always be catastrophes because of it. Its like trying to plug all the volcanos on earth when all you are doing is adding pressure to the inevitable eruption. When you are talking about rights to freedom of choice in life these abuses of power dont matter as much in comparison. Mages deserve to be able to govern themselves without ANY oversight in my opinion. If they make it work as shown in people/places like Nevarra, Orlais, the Dalish, and in Tevinter great. If they fail horribly and destroy themselves thats unfortunate but at least they were given the choice and freedom to fail. A pro templar stance diminishes/confuses that core issue minimizing the fact that mages should never have been be treated as they have been. It will only lead to greater acts of war which as we have seen will cause the greater loss of life and suffering. I dont see the value in making a comparison of what a judge would do when sentencing a criminal to actively drawing attention away from the plight of mages and magic on Thedas. The reason your comparison doesnt work in my opinion is that any given judge will be more intelligent and mature than anyone in Thedas. They have a great deal of growing up/maturing to do to even come close to our societal standards, let alone the standards a judge should have. Saying "most of the time hes not murdering people" as you put it isnt the same as me saying instances of magical misuse and demonic possession are rare. Because we are talking about the consequences of the horrific abuse of a group of people for generations which is completely unnecessary given my examples listed from the more stable places in Thedas. It serves no purpose in my opinion to state the fact that the fact the the Blight exists because of the abuse magic when talking about generational de-humanization of mages. It only obscures the fact that Thedas needs to be having a different conversation entirely that conversation being: How can we coexist with mages, magic, and demons more efficiently? Because none of those things will go away anytime soon no matter how bad/scary magic is made to seem.

And Lord Seeker Lucius.

idk, i always see the templars doing a lot of the killing and very few mages summon demons

The Thing is there is NO solution mages shouldnt be locked away. They should learn yes but be Free Like others and templers are against that

@@moodus9104 there's always a solution if people are reasonable instead of only thinking about money and power and history (and unfortunately even the present) is full of terrible examples but if we have democracies now it's because at one point a lot of people understood it was the best system for everybody so it's possible and you can write a story where it's possible.

@@littlemouse7066 yeah but you need to Understand that education is very important because if the People dont learn they will Doom the Mages Back to the Circle. And the circle is No solution anymore. They should Life Like the other people of thedas because they are

And why is that?

Templars are too risky as well, they exploit and mistreat mages, causing them to turn into dangerous abominations.

bethesda doesn't deserve the hate