Following Andrew Fisher's call for Stop the War to be disbanded, we heard from Deepa Driver and Lynn Gunnigle.
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@irenehenson451511 ай бұрын
Excellent breakdown of Andrew Fishers article by Deepa Driver ... So sad to listen and watch Lynn Gunnigle giving that heartfelt speech, my heart went out to her and yeah I cried x
@pipeandpotter123611 ай бұрын
It was a terrible breakdown. Pretty much everything she said was wrong.
@markandresen111 ай бұрын
Lynn's local to me and a friend. Seeing her speak with such passion on an open forum about how war has effected her personally was pretty damn moving.
@StuartAtkinson446711 ай бұрын
Also Lynn might want to oppose Putin then since the Russians are the ones mining Ukraine to fuck. The privilage she has to say "my son died from a legacy weapon so let's just ignore the literal hundreds of sons and daughters currently dying". Imagine if she were alive when Hitler was rampaging through Europe, imagine if she took the "can't we all just get along and stop war" stance there. Not only is it horrific to take because it guarentees the invading nation kills more citizens but it also means the area they have the opportunity to mine (because the AGGRESSOR WHICH IS RUSSIA IN THIS WAR IS THE ONE WHO PLANTS THE MINES) in 50 years time there will currently be incidents like this which is horrifying to think of.... And Lynn wants MORE? Absolutely disgusting.
@annenunney990711 ай бұрын
I agree
@susiegreaves728311 ай бұрын
First time I have heard this woman Deepa Driver. She is wonderful. Thank you Crispin for introducing such incisive and informed people on your channel. I am deeply disappointed by the TU and the LP stand on Ukraine. Have they not read any history of NATO incursions into Eastern Europe?
@pipeandpotter123611 ай бұрын
The TU and LP are not blinded by tanky loyalty to a now Fascist Russia.
@annenunney990711 ай бұрын
So sorry for Lynns son and she is absolutely right about wars
@StuartAtkinson446711 ай бұрын
Nope she's suffered a horrific loss and it's blinded her to empathy for others who loose their children. While her loss is great you could find 10-15 mothers easily who have suffered the same losses NOW and since RUSSIA is the aggressor destroying and mining the country at the moment what Lynn is saying is "Let's let the mines pile up by reducing Ukraine's fighting capacity" imagine if that HAD happened back when Hitler was doing the same as Putin? Lynn's son would STILL have died but the Nazis would have mined MORE area, not just France and the sea but also more of Frances beeches than they already did, potentially Holland, the entirety of Europe could have become a minefield. The way to avoid deaths like Lynns is to end the imperialists progression. I always wonder with the Russia apologists how they think they could stand to be in the room with an actual Ukrainian.... Like imagine it... "My son and husband were killed by Russians in the donbass, I've had to leave my home and there are parts of my family I don't know if they made it." "Yeah well mine had a freak accident with an old bomb so I don't think Ukraine should be supplied with weapons" HORRIFIC.
@lynngunnigle999911 ай бұрын
@@StuartAtkinson4467 You just littrally invented all that drivle. How will prolonging the war with British and American weapons help the Ukrainians ? please do explain. The war mongering money makers are talking TEN MORE YEARS ...are you actually serious ? The only ones to benifit from that will be the weapon makers like SUNAK and BIDEN for instance .Why is no one talking PEACE ?...including YOU ?.... dont you want people to live in peace ? Take a deep breath and except NO ONE deseves to be blown up ever ....for any reason and NO ONE should be trying to justify or score it either. You have no argument if you are offering more death and distruction as a solution .
@pipeandpotter123611 ай бұрын
She seems to dislike Hitler but not have any idea about what stopped Hitler, and forced the Nazis to agree to peace: A war.
@MW-ld4yu11 ай бұрын
So sorry for you and yours Lynn. You speak for us, not the war mongers who profit from death and destruction.
@stephencalder158311 ай бұрын
Well said Lynn. You speak for me and for folk whose lives are torn apart by war across the world.
@bobcosmic11 ай бұрын
War Is A Racket - Maj Gen Smedley D.Butler.
@knewspeakblade823311 ай бұрын
No war is Just, there is just war, the bringer of sorrow and tears.
@gerardpeterbrennan11 ай бұрын
Pacifists are never popular during times of war, but that's when their voice is most important.
@allanmckeown841711 ай бұрын
Never mind the dead bodies think of the profits, BAE.
@allanmckeown841711 ай бұрын
That's such a sad story, there's still unexploded bombs and land mines all over the world, no-one knows where they are.
@BobCratchit-77311 ай бұрын
Thank you to Deepak Driver for her contribution I found it very educational.
@arthurmoore852111 ай бұрын
The Ukraine war was started in 2014 by the US overthrowing an elected government in Ukraine. Expanding NATO to the east after promises that they wouldn't. Also building up weapons on Russia's borders. Imagine such a build up on US borders. It's Ukrainian and Russian soldiers who are suffering and dying, in the name of USA hegemony.
@patzan4811 ай бұрын
These are all lies. But what do I know, I’m Ukrainian who’s lived through it.
@JB-br6kq11 ай бұрын
absolute piffle.
@madameblatvatsky11 ай бұрын
@@patzan48I find that all English people are totally aware of how the political system works too. That's why the country is in such a great state
@pipeandpotter123611 ай бұрын
When Eastern Europeans have a revolt against Russia, it’s a ‘NATO coup’. When anyone has a revolt against the US, UK, or Israel, it’s a heroic resistance. The Tanky/SWP left in a nutshell.
@geraldtraynor11 ай бұрын
Well put. The US backed resurgence of Nazism in the Ukraine is a danger not just for Russia but for Europe as a whole, especially as its economy declines.
@ko6el11 ай бұрын
Massive hug to Lynn
@stan472311 ай бұрын
Gorbachov negotiated when the USSR broke up with agreement that NATO would not move Eastwards.2014 uprising in Ukraine which ousted the elected government, which was funded and supported by the USA and UK.
@JB-br6kq11 ай бұрын
Russia also negotiated the removal of the third largest nuclear arsenal on the commitment to observe Ukrainian sovereign borders. and Ukraine only requested NATO membership after the invasion. So, if you are going to reference history, be sure to reference all of it not just the elements that suit your narrative.
@susantranter716311 ай бұрын
@@JB-br6kqyet Russians saw 8000 ethnic Russians massacres by Nazi Ukrainian security forces, Victoria Nuland admitted the USA installation of biowarfare labs in Ukraine and here you are acting all knowing 🤮
@dm3290411 ай бұрын
exactly and they have been bombing ethnic russians in the donbas ever since
@dm3290411 ай бұрын
@@JB-br6kq as far back as 2008 nato membership was discussed
@JB-br6kq11 ай бұрын
@@dm32904 They applied for the MAP, which is a process where full members can review application for membership but due to the requirements laid out in the application criteria this was shelved in 2010. This was due to the "way things were at the time" Times change and therefore the option only became realistic after the invasion.
@dougbuckeridge719011 ай бұрын
Very strong rebuttals of Andrew Fisher's comments - Lynn's being particularly moving.
@StuartAtkinson446711 ай бұрын
Nope stupid virtue signalling that only the Western removed from war people would ever say. When war happens you oppose THE AGGRESSOR MINING AND KILLING. That's Putin. Ukranians have agency (though the "left" are thristy for them to die) they want to fight off the horde. They want to protect their people. They want to prevent his annexation of Crimea, the Donbass and eventually Kyiv because each new front they manage to open they're reducing to rubble and mined land. Lynn's grief is real but people are saying "Now let's let that happen to as much of Ukraine as possible for the next 80 years by not giving Ukraine enough support to stop the ambitions of Putin." Who has already mined what people estimate will take near that long to remove.
@susiegreaves728311 ай бұрын
Lynn's words are powerful. I am so so sorry to hear your words. Of course she is absolutely right. When I hear people supporting war, any war, I want them to experience physical pain. It might sound bloodthirsty but really what I am saying is, remember what physical pain feels like, even something like the cracked vertebra I had three years ago, remember how that impacted my life at the time. Now multiply that pain by 100, and imagine lying on the battlefield, with noone coming to help you, as apparently Ukrainian soldiers are doing, and tell me you support the war in Ukraine. That is what Lynn is saying because she saw her son go through that pain. Lynn, I wont forget your words. Please accept my condolences.
@lynngunnigle99992 ай бұрын
Thank you Susie x
@susiegreaves72832 ай бұрын
@@lynngunnigle9999all respect and support and love to you Lynn. You have seen the truth. Keep on speaking it. Xxx
@ko6el11 ай бұрын
Completely agree that stw must stop prefacing everything with an anti Russian invasion statement as if there was no history context or provocation
@stan472311 ай бұрын
AID is never without strings , it will have to be repaid.
@patrickholt227011 ай бұрын
"Laughable" here meaning factual. There's no such thing as being anti-war except for supporting US imperialism against Russia. There's no such thing as being anti-racist except for Russophobia. There's no such thing as being anti-neoliberal except for supporting the EU. There's no such thing as being a socialist except for foreign policy where you back NATO. There's no such thing as anti-fascist except for supporting neo-N@*ism in the Ukrainian military and government.
@davidmontgomery984611 ай бұрын
Putin wanted to recreate Greater Russia (confirmed by the Belarussian President ) and invading Ukraine was the first part of this plan .Why do you think Finland and Sweden wanted to join N.A.T.O.Putin was going to invade them after Ukraine and the Baltic States. Instead of being a Putin apologist do some objective research .
@camdencobain146011 ай бұрын
Russia is a monster for not 'turning the other cheek' when known red lines were crossed, but Ukraine is heroic for taking up arms. The kind of double standards & logical inconsistency that's the quintessence of neocon-neolib policy. A pacifist doesn't try to 'stop the war' once the right side is winning; they want hostilities to cease ASAP thru all available channels because they understand war itself is the problem, not who wins or loses.
@aneurindavies594311 ай бұрын
Stop the War Coalition are not Absolute Pacifists in the literal sense of the term, as used at the beginning of twenties century, when Jingoism was all the rage, especially among the ruling-classes, and bourgeoisie.
@user-zc4yd9ss7h11 ай бұрын
Ukraine took up arms to stop its people being killed and its country destroyed. What were they supposed to do?
@keithparker134611 ай бұрын
they have the right to do that but NOT expect every other country to support them in their regional dispute with Russia@@user-zc4yd9ss7h
@StuartAtkinson446711 ай бұрын
"red lines" you mean the whole not one inch thing someone said in a dinner convo once with Gorbachev? Yeah glad NATO never did and the countries that freed themselves from the Tsardom were free to make their own alliences. The whole "Poor Putin all his fwends were leaving because the EU and NATO seemed so cool with all their NOT KILLING POLITICIANS AND CITIZENS" What choice did he have?!?! Let Ukraine just exist without the Czechnia, Georgia, Syria, Libya treatment? No couldn't have had that.
@camdencobain146011 ай бұрын
@@user-zc4yd9ss7h Didn't Russia take up arms to stop ethnic Russians being murdered by US-approved neo-Nazi brigades in the Donbas? Why do you expect the Kremlin also not to have a breaking point, or deny it the right to define what constitutes a casus belli for itself? If invasion of one's own territory is the only justification for military mobilisation, then the British were wrong to declare war on Germany over Poland in 1939.
@laurenceskinnerton7311 ай бұрын
You can still support the Ukrainian people and be against war in a general sense.
@jameselliott820311 ай бұрын
Can we agree all wars are bad, that would be a start. No2 Nato No2 War .
@davidmontgomery984611 ай бұрын
Where is Putin and Russia in your post .
@StuartAtkinson446711 ай бұрын
OH I WISH. But most old lefties seem to do it for a laugh rather than the principle of stoping war they think WESTERN war is bad and then the moment any other country does it they go into full bloodthirst mode. "Yeah strip the Ukranians of their defences, they're almost dead I'm gonna cum" it's been horrific seeing the left so COMPLETELY tip their hand that their issue isn't imperialism or war it's "the west". So long as the "team" is as opposed as possible to "the west" then yeah Russia can engage in the same fuckery in the Middle East and Africa doesn't matter they're not "the west". Putin literally admits it's blood and soil "we view them as Russian so we're going to kill them all and move the Russians in" meh that's fine he didn't say it in English.
@jameselliott820311 ай бұрын
@@davidmontgomery9846 So you don't agree that wars are bad ?
@davidmontgomery984611 ай бұрын
@@jameselliott8203 all wars are bad but some are necessary .
@jameselliott820311 ай бұрын
@davidmontgomery9846 Yeah but not this one
@ThisIsNotaUniversity11 ай бұрын
excellent analysis
@Grombags11 ай бұрын
Lynn Gunnigle's part of this video should be shared far and wide, across anywhere that people who are remotely supportive of war and its weapons might be. I despise the fact that the UK is still the second biggest arms exporter world-wide and it sickens me that weapons manufacture seems to be one of the few industries our government strives to keep busy. Creation of weapons is never a good thing.
@ReformSaba11 ай бұрын
God bless you Lynn ❤
@baruni2711 ай бұрын
Lynn had me in tears. really really sad
@casteretpollux10 ай бұрын
Only saying, this is one of the best YT channels on the left that I know of - actuallybit is the best.
@casteretpollux10 ай бұрын
Im very impressed with this guest.
@ghengis43011 ай бұрын
I didn't really understand Fisher's arguments there, maybe I'm tired, or would need to read and re-read. I think Deepa's comment about money laundering hit the spot for me, that's the key, Yemen in case of point. And am so sorry Lynn, thats what it's about, maiming and destroying at a distance, without any morals, just money and power.
@mk492210 ай бұрын
Well said Deepa!
@casteretpollux10 ай бұрын
Please have Deepak Driver on again - both guests are great.
@jennifermeadows556411 ай бұрын
You cracked that one. Thanks and keep speaking put.
@casteretpollux10 ай бұрын
If we needed to be in the majority the whole time, the Labour movement would never have been started.
@WarrenPeaceOG11 ай бұрын
Stop the War did their homework. The rest didn't. Also, due to both govt restrictions and disaster capitalism, unions have been smashed in Ukraine. Solidarity with the people of Ukraine smashing unions? Unions should support unions.
@SmolDeBrol11 ай бұрын
Your comment leaves me wondering as to how Trade Unions are faring in Russia? Any info?
@WarrenPeaceOG11 ай бұрын
@@SmolDeBrol Russia is a neoliberal country, so I'd imagine unions are in a similarly dire state as in the West. Granted, they don't seem to be huge fans of neoliberalism after '90s shock therapy - and they have a fuller social state than we do - with free university, free healthcare, and years of paid maternity leave. If you can get past the paywall, Zelensky wrote an editorial in the Wall St. Journal (Invest in the Future of Ukraine, Sept '22) where he said they'd abolish the right of labour to join labour unions, and abolish the right to collective bargaining; all labour rights in the Ukraine constitution are null and void. He also rejects all EU labour laws, and rejects UN labour laws. (Via economist Michael Hudson, on Geopolitical Economy Report, with Ben Norton)
@alexwood114211 ай бұрын
To quote George Orwell support for pacifism is, objectively, pro-Fascist.
@huwpatt381711 ай бұрын
Got 2 get these numbers up 🏋♀️
@Mrrobackenson110 ай бұрын
Thank God, they weren't around during WW2!!!! 😮
@user-xd9yo3le7o11 ай бұрын
StW are a bunch of tankies talking to each other.... little relevance in 2023.
@stuartwray617511 ай бұрын
Get on board with the Project for the New American Century/the Wolfowitz doctrine. Together we'll turn back the tide of history. 20 years of perpetual war; 4.5 - 4.7 million people killed in post 9/11 war zones; more than 38 people displaced; two thirds of the world sanctioned; annual US military spending nearing $1 trillion dollars. EU military spending to increase by €70 billion euros...and 735 million people go hungry each and every day. As Madeleine Albright said about 500.000 dead Iraqi babies, it was a difficult decision but we think it was worth it.
@ko6el7 ай бұрын
Makes you wonder if he's just exposed himself as yet another dodgy person who was close to Corbyn
@albal15611 ай бұрын
You want peace. All completely fine. But how do you get it? Honest question.
@dm3290411 ай бұрын
chevron, boing and raytheon dont
@pipeandpotter123611 ай бұрын
Fisher’s article sounds absolutely on point. I was a stop the war activist as a teenager against the Iraq War. I’m now a trade union rep in my workplace. STW’s position on Ukraine is a completely laughable position, and goes against how the vast majority of the UK population see the war. Everyone loves and wants peace, but sometimes it’s not possible in the face of the overwhelming aggression from a malicious actor like Putin. Deepa’s arguments on the TUC are wrong, and the rest of her comments are frankly insane, comparing the NATO position on Russia with the position on the Taliban or Saddam. She almost lets the mask slip when she starts to call STW’s position not Pro Russian enough, towards the end of her statement, but just catches herself. Lynn’s position appears to be that she’s a pacifist, which wouldn’t have really worked against Hitler, and won’t work against Putin. It’s also not STW’s position or policy, STW is not a pacifist organisation, it’s supposed to be and claims to be an anti imperialist organisation, which I guess it is if you believe that only the US, UK and Israel can be imperialist.
@stuartwray617511 ай бұрын
NATO expansion is the crux of the matter and likening Putin to Hitler is absurd.
@WarrenPeaceOG11 ай бұрын
To get perspective, consider how the rest of the world sees it? The global south sees what Deepa Driver sees. This is what Professor Mearsheimer sees. This is what US Colonel Mcgregor sees. It's what economist Jeffery Sachs sees. It's what anyone interested in the history of geo-politics sees. NATO starts a war with a coup in 2014, and the BBC tells you the war started when Russia invaded in 2022. The coup and the 8 years of NATO helping Ukraine bomb it's own civilians is conveniently omitted. This is the world of information warfare: manufacturing continued consent for war
@TREVORALLMAN11 ай бұрын
I feel sorry for the colleagues in your workplace. You appear to embody all that is wrong with the trade union movement and why it is in the dire state it is in.
@pipeandpotter123611 ай бұрын
@@TREVORALLMAN what like organising pickets of my workplace during a strike that increased their pay and government funding for their workplace? Like helping to organise illegal strikes over health and safety at the height of the pandemic and saving lives in the workplace and the local community as a result? What have you ever done for your union or colleagues? Simping for Putin?
@TREVORALLMAN11 ай бұрын
@@pipeandpotter1236 I've done all that and more, whilst not supporting a Nazi regime, unlike yourself.
@bostinbrummie10 ай бұрын
WATCH, DDN (DOUBLE DOWN NEWS) 👍 3:12
@paulevans366310 ай бұрын
Fishers article is spot on. Shameful and ignorant attitude by the unions here based on a world view from the last centuary.
@Saysonow10 ай бұрын
So Andrew Fisher is a warmonger.
@leesaunders840711 ай бұрын
Not sure Lynns point about cluster bombs, they're being used on the russian army. And RUSSIA and RUSSIA alone are responsible for all the bombs and unexploded ordnance in Ukraine.
@keithparker134611 ай бұрын
every single one? theres absolutely no possibility theres just one from Ukraine?
@dm3290411 ай бұрын
the US started all this in 2014, when the CIA engineered a far right coup to get rid of the elected government for a nuland pyatt government
@davidbradley337710 ай бұрын
in 2015 I was watching youtube when it happened to show only for around 30 minutes the result of a Ukrainian attack on Lughansk main square in the Donbas where innocent men women and children were bombed .The result of seeing this will live with me forever seeing people lying there with their limbs blown off and the fact that no media in any western country reported this war crime was astounding,in my opinion was why it took the Russians so long to go into this when innocent men women and children had been killed already .