When do YOU think a redemption arc works? Go watch THE SOJOURN right now on Nebula right here go.nebula.tv/hellofutureme (seriously, you are missing out if you haven't yet) ~ Tim

It's easier for people to forgive and humanize a fictional character than an actual human.

The most important rules for redemption is, "You cant redeem pure evil villains" and "Sympathetic and redeemable are not the same thing" edit: I love how 90% of the replies are "Nuh uh I'm a good writer I can redeem Satan"

“Character laundering” is such a good term

I think the fact that Azula is an abused 14 year old has become a prominent thought in recent years as people who were kids when they watched it grew up. Now that we’re older we look at this young girl who realistically has so much life ahead of her we want her to have a better life then prison forever

'deserve' is always a funny word and always makes me think of this passage from The Dispossessed by Ursula K. Le Guin; "Have we not eaten while another starved? Will you punish us for that? Will you reward us for the virtue of starving while others ate? No man earns punishment, no man earns reward. Free your mind of the idea of deserving, the idea of earning, and you will begin to be able to think". there is no 'deserve'

I think the point that people miss about redemption and rehabilitation is that the person you aim to redeem has to actually want it and be willing to put the work in

Another reason I feel people want redemption arcs is also that they are uncomfortable liking an evil character. If they have a redemption arc then it validates their like of the character.

For me I’m an abused kid who developed a “violent” personality disorder (I hate calling it that) and lashed out and hurt people. And for me, as a kid, if Azula could heal then maybe I could too. It’s not that I think she needs one or it would be good for her character and perhaps it’s selfish but even as a grown up who has done my best to heal and make amends I want to see a character I relate to heal because if people can see her as deserving of healing than maybe I can believe that I deserve it too. I think there’s a clash in my brain between me the writer who sees and adores the writing and the character and me the abuse victim who sees a child who was abused in ways similar to me and who reacted similarly to me and I think that difference in the multiple was I (and I think most people) see Azula is always going to make this discussion hard because some people are asking “does the narrative benefit from the character Azula being given a redemption arc?” And some people are asking “does an abused 14 year old girl deserve to be given a second chance?” and I think most people aren’t clear in which question they’re asking when they talk about Azula redemption.

To me in middle school during the original run of ATLA Azula's story meant: if you treat all your friends like crap and act better than everyone you will end up with no friends. as a 11 year old watching a 14 year old lose everyone because of her actions was very powerful story telling.

I think people are interested in redemption arcs for similar reasons they like "fall from grace" arcs. A lot of stories are about character development, and going from "good" to "evil" or from "evil" to "good" is a dramatic example that can make for intriguing narratives about how people react long-term to recurring and/or ongoing challenges. One narrative concept people have liked since the beginning of storytelling is the overcoming of great obstacles, and what is a greater obstacle than one's own failings?

Wanting redemption for pure evil characters feels like an "I can fix him" situation...

And then there’s Big Jack Horner from Puss in Boots the Last Wish who was blatantly Evil and Knows he is and rejects any kind of redemption or atonement. Or Emperor Belos/Phillip Whittlebane Disney’s most irredeemable Villain in Years! Also Simon from Infinity Train And Odalia Blight herself who willingly helped Belos with assisted Genocide of the Boiling Isles for her greed. Aku from Samurai Jack And Stella from Helluva Boss.

We have to remember, it's not like people want redemption for every character out there. In ATLA no one is clamoring for Ozai to change his ways, or wishing Zhao could have understood he was wrong or wanting proper closure for Hama. It's clear that Azula is a specific case for redemption supporters because of all the circumstances surrounding her character, and not because she's simply a victim everyone pities. I don't think she "deserves" redemption, technically no one does, but as was said in the video based on her narrative it's not an inorganic way to proceed with the character. She was intentionally given qualities and background narratives before the end of the series that re-contextualized what makes her tick to the audience, and that's where the majority of the sympathy comes from. Add on that she's clearly at a stage of her life where change actually seems possible (especially in comparison to someone like Ozai who is decades into his villain arc), and then when you consider that the core circumstances that emboldened her villainy and removed self doubt have been neutralized it's understandable why she's currently some ATLA fans redemption candidate #1. Personally I think that without redemption or healing, her story should have stayed closed at the end of the series. If we want to view her as a "narrative tool", her purpose was completed with the end of the series and any more screen time is just trying to stretch the character well beyond a proper ending. Of course if we do want her redeemed, then narratively Zuko continuing a cycle of healing is a clear opportunity laid out by the current character dynamics. And finally, it's extremely important to understand that redemption arcs don't mean a character turns into a hero or a goodie two shoes. It doesn't mean they earn everyone's forgiveness or even respect. A character can be redeemed and still be full of issues as long as they understand their actions were wrong and need to change. They can be redeemed and still be reviled and attacked by everyone around them and that's fine if it fits the narrative.

Oh man this is one of my biggest pet peeves in fan conversations about fiction, this is a cathartic video to watch. Character laundering is such a good way of describing it. There's been a troubling rise in lack of media literacy and understanding that fiction is fiction, and characters aren't real people, in a lot of online spaces lately. And to be honest, sometimes it's fun to have people be villains, and Azula is a fantastic and really fun villain, especially as a foil to Zuko. I do wonder how much Disney's policy of not having true villains in stories anymore has influenced this as well.

“good act does not wash out the bad, nor a bad act the good. Each should have its own reward.” - Stannis

In my opinion, redemption is ultimately a personal choice. You have to actively choose to be better than when you started. So when righting a redemption arc, you need to consider if it makes sense for the character to make that choice.

Sometimes redemptions arcs happen because money, and a profitable IP can't be left to lie, it has to be strip mined for every last penny.

I think people like redemption arcs because it is reassuring to the audience that *they* can make it out and be a better person. Maybe they feel terrible about themselves and by witnessing the redemption of another character who has undoubtedly done worse gives them hope for themselves and who might be truly supportive of them as a person

To quote Optimus prime "Every sentient being has the capacity for change" Everyone wants to believe that no matter how far you fall it's always possible to choose to become better

There was an interesting counterpoint to the redemption arc process in Frieren - which is an incredibly written story with very deep and complex characters, the kind of thing where you might expect a masterful redemption arc.... but it decides to go the other way, and instead explores the consequences of trying to redeem someone - or something - that isn't redeemable, and where the differences in worldview are in fact irreconcilable. It's kind of rare to actually see this inversion of the redemption story.

8:15 "Character Laundering" is a good term. I think this tends to happen when the character has already served their narrative purpose, but the writer doesn't want to get rid of them or kill them off (George R.R. Martin style), and so they 'repurpose' them, recycling the character, even if that winds up messing with the OG point of the character.

I feel like redemption is often done merely for the sake of it, and not because it makes sense or builds a great story. Kinda removes the satisfaction from many modern payoffs, especially with morally grey characters. Redeeming them sometimes works if it is set up correctly, but often it just removes their greyness.

I think theres something beautiful, optimistic, and hopeful when a writer goes out of his way to show that almost no one is "too far gone" to have a redemption arc. To me, Aang's refusal to kill Ozai is also him seeing that everyone, even Ozai, has the capacity to change his ways. Maybe it blurs the thematic elements and makes for a lesser "strongly defined character", but I think the conclusion that "everyone deserves the chance to change" is valuable in its own right.

What i love about the comic is exploring trauma in relation to Azulas agency. She is given a chance to reflect her past and perhaps change. But ultimately she makes her choice and refuses to listen. Trauma doesnt excuse abuse or other poor behaviors.

I think the best treatment to a good villain is a satisfying ending, kinda like Darth Vader's redemption in the old lore... In the end, it didn't make a difference to anyone in the galaxy other than Luke, even Leia said she didn't care that he was "redeemed" in the end, as it didn't change the fact that he robbed her of a mother, her home and her adoptive family. Even Luke can't look over all the harm he did just because he did the right thing in the end. The audience does care about Vader/Anakin's journey, but in the context of the story, he is still detested and most don't even know that Anakin and Vader were one in the same. There are some genuinely interesting villain redemptions, but I do dislike when characters seem like they've managed a complete 180 either without proper motivation or trying to apply it to characters that have been written so far to be irredeemable.

I really liked Zaheer as an antagonist-mentor for Korra, but he didn't really "change". He always believed that what he was doing was right. He was always a complex villain, so it's not really a stretch that he'd be willing to help his former enemy if he believed their cause was just.

Redemption, when done correctly, has a few boxes to check. 1. Don't minimize their role in wrongdoing. Let the villan be who they are, then, show them change. Change is the ultimate redemption. 1.5 an exception to this is if the "villain" was ACTUALLY just being manipulated, and Really Didn't Know what the REAL Villain was doing. This works best if they are just a kid being manipulated by an adult. I can forgive a brainwashed child much easier than the adult that abused them. 2. Don't betray the foil. Don't tell me this character is a personification of the evil's of slavery then have them say "I'm a good guy now!". NO! If you do that you are excusing what they REPRESENTED. 3. Redemption is about change (see #1) but is also about responsibility. If a murderer killed a family member of mine, got away, and went through a FULL REDEMPTION ARC, and came to me to say, "I. Have. Changed." What good does that do me? They can un-unalive my family. THIS is where 99% of Hollywood redemptions fail. Vader changed, really. But you can't ask the galaxy to forgive him, because he killed so many innocent people, he did SO MUCH DAMAGE that can NEVER BE FIXED. People hate characters they think SHOULDN'T have gotten redemptions because they didn't or in the crime is unfixable, couldn't take responsibility.

Another reason for redemption arcs, at least one I've felt is when you relate to the evil character or see flaws in yourself in them, you want them to be redeemed because if they aren't it makes you uncomfortable. It starts making you think that maybe there is no fixing these flaws. Of course, a better way to look at it personally is to use the feelings of discomfort to motivate yourself to change. Though that's harder and requires more self reflection than the character just being redeemed.

Jack MF Horner from the last Puss In Boots. Dude was a perfect example of a character whose redemption would lessen the impact of his character. Funny enough, he even asks for redemption when hes about to loose not because hes changed but he hopes to trick the other characters into helping him avoid a terrible fate. To make sure the audience understood his ACTUAL motive, the movie has Jiminy Cricket (Jacks manifestation of his conscience) break down in anger and say he's not worth saving. 11/10 movie. Did NOT expect it to be as good as it was

I would have loved to have seen Zaheer and Tenzen interact after his defeat. Tenzen's only other peers are his children and fledgling Airbenders. Zaheer and he could meaningfully learn from one another

In the main story of atla, azula definitely shouldn't have a redemption arc, bc it would ruin her role in the story, BUT i still don't mind azula post-canon redemption stories simply because i find them interesting. Like, she doesnt necesarily *deserve* a redemption. I also don't think she should get one soon after the series ending, or that most other characters should be involved (because it doesnt make sense to overlap their character roles anymore). But as a separate story, more a spinoff than a sequel, i do think azulas future would be interesting to explore, because, simply, what is she supposed to do? Not only was she abused at a very young age, but everything she stood for has kinda been destroyed. She was ozais weapon, but ozai has lost his power (both political but more importantly cultural with the firebending). Her position in royal power has basically been stripped from her. Left alone to her own devices, after a couple of years, what would she become? She can't just take the same route as zuko, because fundamentally she rejected redemption and burned fundamental bridges in a much more aware way than zuko ever did. I think exploring azula postcanon would make for an interesting story, and i think that her reaching some kind of... idk if redemption, because i don't know if she deserves to be forgiven by the people she hurt, but at least reach some sort of improvement in the kind of person she becomes? I think it's a fundamentally interesting story setup, although definitely only applicable in a spinoff or fanfiction sort of context, as it shouldnt really have to be woven in with the other plot threads of the main story

I hate the Kuvira redemption arc. What she did is beyond redemption. In no way can anyone convince me that one act of good will make Asami forgive Kuvira for killing her father.

Azula is an interesting case where whether they keep her a broken villain or have her healed and redeemed, either path could work wonderfully as long as it's done right. The story does not need it, but it wouldn't be unwelcome. All people irl deserve redemption as long as they're willing to work towards it, but fictional characters only deserve their purpose in the story.

For me,I think people in my opinion want redemption arcs is because of the fact they see the villains actions and motivations as the audience see potential in them to be a good person. I admit,I myself love redemption arcs but only to the villains who truly deserve to get themselves redeem but not forgiven by people who they hurt.

even as a kid i always figured azula would get a redemption arc years after the show, but getting one within atla's 9ish month timeline? she's there to be a tragic foil precisely because of her ending, she didn't need a redemption arc within the show itself by any measure tbh

A big thing for me within recent memory is redemption arcs seemed to get more popular particularly during a time where main heroes were not allowed to be flawed/ever wrong. It's becoming more and more common and the only characters sometimes that feel 'real' and understandable sometimes are just the villains. So wanting to see their story play out and get a happy ending becomes a higher priority for some over the perfect flawless heroes journey.

I'm also thinking that perhaps we're looking for it ourselves, the hope that we can be better than we used to be, and so we look to fictional characters for it - "If they can be redeemed, so can i"

I think Sasha from Amphibia and Amity from The Owl House also have some pretty good redemption arc

Because most shows end with the villain losing, so if you don't want the character you like to be imprisoned or killed they need to undergo a redemption arc so they're no longer a villain.

I’m reminded of something I heard a friend once say, that has stuck with me: The devil doesn’t need an advocate.

An Azula "redemption" I enjoy seeing in FanFic is one that isn't actually a redemption. It's where Zuko does his best to give Azula what Iroh gave him, but instead of making Azula good, it only makes her switch the need for affection from Ozai to Zuko. Making her do good things (whatever Zuko wants) for a bad reason (only because Zuko wants it.) She's still violent, but it's tempered by a need for Zuko. Sure it's unhealthy, but there's nothing more fun and dramatic then a little bit of toxic codependency.

I love arcs where two characters with similar struggles are portrayed to have different styles of approaching that problem, where one goes about it in a healthy way and the other does it unhealthily. To me, that’s a great way of portraying life lessons, and redemption of the unhealthy one ruins it. However, redemption for one and not the other can be exactly that altering path where one goes wrong and the other learns.

To me, Azula's redemption as an idea is interesting. But, just it. Just as idea. Her morally grey traits that made her the way she is, isn't a reason why we like her at the first place? The clinging for her to be good, yet too far away is part of Azula character. Heck, even all morally grey characters does. *This hope to wish them to be good is part of the charm, but actually executing the hope isn't.* It's a paradox, yes. Just like an angst romance story with sad ending. If it's came to happy ending, it will be entirely different story. It wouldn't be an angst we intended to read or watch at the first place. Same goes for Azula. The "wishing" is the whole point. Not making it real.

My favorite redemption arc is one from a a very obscure source: a middle grade book trilogy about bullying. Specifically mean girl bullying. Each book is from the perspective of a different character. The first is about the bystander learning to stand up for others and become a leader. The second is about the victim learning to stand up for herself and have confidence in herself. But the third, the one about the bully, is really where the series shines. For the first two books the main mean girl is pretty much completely horrible (with a few hints of her sympathetic traits shining through). She shoves a girl in a locker, traps another in a bathroom, and later puts that same girl in the hosptiol (probably accidentally to be fair). And yet when we see things from her perspective you really can't hate her. The book doesn't excuse her actions but it does give some perspective. She didn't bully people because she actually liked being mean. She did it because she wanted control over her life after her motherly figure was ripped out of her life. So when she's shown that she doesn't need to control others to be happy, she turns pretty nice fairly quickly. And then she takes accountability for her actions and it's honestly pretty wholesome.

I feel Kuvera could be a decent redemption if they didn’t weaken her evil. Like as an exploration over her excuses for doing what she did and making her confront the horribleness off it all Then having her final step being stopping her men from continuing their war not cause they are more evil but because they still believe in the cause as she is forced to make them see the error in her/their ways. Her finale could be the rest of her life rebuilding what she destroyed or dismantling her old organization

I firmly believe that when people say "so and so deserves a redemption arc," they mean (and probably wouldn't even argue) that the people, like themselves, who sympathize with the character deserve to see that character redeemed. Remember that there are people who sympathized with Heath Ledger's Joker to the point where they would unironically quote him in the way that you would quote a moral authority. The same goes for Harley Quinn: so much so that she actually has been more or less retconned into an antihero despite the heinous things that she had canonically done in the comics. We WANT to believe in happy endings, and that is especially true for characters for whom we get a sense of vulnerability. If it weren't for the series writers constantly hinting at the various tragic elements of Azula's past, nobody would want her to be anything other than a villain, but when you tug on the audience's heartstrings, it's only natural for some of them to make a connection with the character. I agree that it is important for writers not to always give in and offer a redemption arc just because people call for it, but that's because I think that it's important for us to empathize with tragic characters, otherwise we won't be able to recognize tragedy in the real world. If we give everyone a redemption arc who we believe "deserve" it, we create a fantasy where anyone who isn't pure evil has a happy ending, and that's just not true as far as I can tell.

This was an incredible video Tim, and I’m glad I watched it! Especially since I was hesitant to click on it, at first. It’s because of a personal reason: I really love Azula. And the topic of her redemption is something that’s really hard for me to talk about. With any other character or any other fandom I would’ve dived into this discussion without hesitation, since I really love these types of videos that go in-depth on writing and all that. But I’m very sensitive when it comes to Azula’s character, because she means a lot to me personally. I really look up to you as a writer and content creator, so I knew that if there was anyone I’d trust to handle this topic gently but with honesty and insightfulness, it is you. So I watched the video. So first of all I want to give the compliment that this video was super interesting and entertaining (as per usual with your content.) - But I’d like to add my perspective to this discussion here in this comment: To give a little bit of context on why Azula matters so much to me, and why I consider myself ‘’sensitive’’ on the topic of her redemption; I’m autistic. And with autism comes this thing called ‘’a special interest.’’ Special interests are extremely important for us autistic people, as it’s often our source of comfort and it’s deeply entwined with our personalities and hobbies and life as a whole. Azula is my special interest. I’m not sure why exactly I got so fixated on her. I watched ATLA as a child and I loved it back then, but Azula didn’t necessarily stand out to me. Until I recently rewatched the show, now that I’m in my twenties, and I grew to ADORE her character. A big part of my day-to-day life revolves around Avatar. All my hobbies are centred around it: I make fanart of it, I write fanfiction about it, I watch and make edits on tiktok and youtube, I rewatch the show over and over, I started playing Fortnite because of the Avatar collab they did, I even spend hours putting together a modpack for Minecraft so I could use Avatar’s elemental bending in the game! What I’m trying to say is: I really, really LOVE Avatar The Last Airbender. It’s my favourite thing and it makes me happy. (I’m aware that for most of you who will read this and don’t have autism, that this kind of intense interest could be seen as an ‘’obsession’’ and you will likely find me a little weird for it. I understand why. Hehe. But for someone with autism, having such an intense special interest is actually normal. It’s a very common trait for us to have. I won’t blame anyone without knowledge on how autism works to fully understand it. But if you’re reading my comment I hope you’re able to not judge me, and maybe even learn something about autism. But my focus isn’t on explaining the disability in this comment. But mentioned it because I think it's important for you to have this context so you can understand my next point.) - So Azula means the world to me. I could go in-depth as to why I’ve gotten so attached to her character (I’ve thought a lot about it) but I’ll try to summarise it. I think it’s a combination of me just having a deep love for storytelling and finding Azula’s tragic, yet beautifully written story arc very interesting. But I think there’s also a more personal reason: I kind of relate to her. Which is weird because I’m NOTHING like her, but I still feel some sort of connection and understanding for her as a character. I guess I just understand why she is the way she is. And I love her for her strengths and sympathize with her for her tragic circumstances. (And no, I’m not someone who sees Azula as some poor, sweet, baby girl that could do no wrong. I acknowledge she has a villain role in the story and that she does bad things) I know there are other ‘’Azula fans’’ in the fandom and that they’re kinda categorized by the rest as… ''very intense,'' to say the least. XD. I don’t really associate myself with that particular group, as I find it ridiculous how some people treat their fellow fans when they have an opposing opinion. I fully respect and accept that there are people who don’t interpret or think of Azula the way I do. But I’d be lying if I said I didn't feel some kind of painful sting anytime someone says something negative about her. It’s just because I love her so much. And hearing anything that isn’t aligned with my opinions just sorta ''stings.'' I’m not the kind of person to start arguing in a comment section or to cuss people out over it though (And it’s insane some ‘’fans’’ do this btw. Y’all suck and give us Azula fangirlies a bad name >:( ) So for the protection of my own feelings, I just tend to avoid the topic all together. Which is why I was so hesitant to watch this video of yours, because I knew some takes were going to painful for me to listen to. But as I said; you are an incredible content creator and you know how to handle these kinds of ‘’fandom controversial’’ discussions. I knew I could trust you on this. So I was able to watch this just fine :) - And I think you’re right. As an Azula fangirly, I’d love for her to get a redemption arc (hell, I’m currently writing a whole ahh fanfiction based on that idea.) But as a (amateur) writer, I also understand and agree that in storytelling, it’s good to have villains just be villains sometimes. We don’t need a redemption arc for every single one of them. So I have strictly told myself that whatever the canon will do with Azula, I will accept and enjoy it. (I believe it’s an important skill to have for someone who engages in a fandom on the internet, to be able to enjoy canon and fanon separately. So I try my best to be that kind of person.) But whenever someone makes an argument against Azula's redemption , something inside me aches. And I believe it’s for the very reasons you mentioned in this video. That we love this character so we want the best for them. We want them to be good. I CARE about Azula. I know she’s not a real person and just a fictional, 2D character from an animated tv show that aired over 15 years ago. But I just love her. And the idea of her story ending tragically just makes me sad. It’s the kind of bitter-sweet-feeling where I can appreciate the craftsmanship of storytelling that gives a tragic villain a tragic end. But there’s also that part of me that just wants her to find happiness and peace. And I feel these two sides of me are in conflict constantly whenever this discussion comes up. - To conclude: I think the people in the fandom that enjoy having these conversations need to try and be open to all the different perspectives on Azula. (and I believe many of you do. Which is why I feel comfortable enough to be vulnerable and open up to share my perspective here) I saw that many fans in this particular comment section are on the side of ‘’Azula is better kept as a villain.’’ And I agree with many of the points you all bring up! But with my comment I’d also like to share a viewpoint of the opposite side. And how a personal love and connection to a fictional character can indeed sway our opinion. And how it makes us wish for a redemption arc. I honestly don’t know what’s the right path for the creators of ATLA to take Azula. It’s a hard thing to write, especially since you have uhm…. Let’s call it ‘’very passionate fans’’ on either side of the discussion, XD. Personally, I think either way could work. Because I’ll always love her, redeemed or not. I’ll be happy either way. I just wanna see more Azula! But I’d vote for the redemption route, if I could. I love Azula so much and I think it’s because I see something of myself in her. That’s why I care so much and why I want her to be redeemed. Because if she can heal and become a better person, I can too :). - Thanks to anyone who read my long af comment all the way through. Please feel free to have a discussion with me in the comment section, I’d love to hear your thoughts. And if you read this Tim, thank you. For making this video. But also in general for being a huge role model for me and an inspiration for my writing

Dalinar Kholin is probably one of my favourite redemption arcs. he goes from doing bad things for bad reasons to changing slowly over 3 books to start doing good things for good reasons. Journey before destination.

The Kuvira stuff actually sounds like a lot of stalinist apologism. While its arguably true that Stalin wasnt omnipotent and that Beria was a worse person, it is also true that Stalin knew how monstrous Beria was and knowingly used him and others like him in building the Soviet state

I think it's that innate nature to want to believe in the best of us. But not everyone deserves OR WANTS to be redeemed. And if you're all about free will, then that's something you'll have to accept. You can't help people who don't want it. And Azula shows in the spirit temple comic...she doesn't.

No one "deserves" a redemption, that's what makes them so moving when done properly.

I think the main reason people like redemption arcs is because redemption is the ultimate triumph of good over evil because it destroys the evil within oneself. I think a lot of people know that they have done bad things before and have struggled to do good, and seeing someone overcome that is inspiring and reaffirming.

I think redemption arcs are best saved for protagonists, not as a way of getting more story with previous villains. I've rarely seen it done and well, and I've mostly seen it undermine the establishing work. Not every villain can get their issue resolved with therapy, just as therapy will not always rehabilitate a person or fix their relationships.

Imo, I think the reason why people push for an Azula redemption arc is because, with Bryke refusing to write her out of the story even though she has served her purpose as Zuko and Katara's character foil and Ozai's dragon, they don't see an avenue for her remaining a credible villain. The combination of TLOK and Aang' era being targeted towards kids means that Azula can't engage in the tactics required to remain a credible threat to the Gaang, who are made of the strongest warriors in the world and have the backing of all the nations and the strongest NGO in the world (the White Lotus). Moreover, TLOK not only provides massive plot armor to the Gaang sans Suki, but also strongly implies nothing ruinous or terrible happens between the end of Sozin's Comet and the Red Lotus' attempted kidnapping of Korra. Personally, I would want Azula to get worse and engage in a burn-it all-down revenge plot that forces the Gaang to kill her before dealing with the after-effects of allowing an irredeemable villain with power and influence to linger around as a threat, but the above mentioned constraints make it impossible. So, if they keep Azula a villain, she'll become a Team Rocket-esque villain who occasionally shows up to menace the heroes, but never really affect anything until she dies a lonely, pathetic death as a bitter old lady in some backwoods. And I don't think people want to see one of the most of menacing and threatening villain in western animation get reduced to that. Hence why they push for a redemption arc; it could lead to more interesting writing than the alternative.

I think people like redemption arcs because it shows people (us included) have the potential to be better people if we work at it.

I feel with azula a redeption arc would work a lot better as she ages. Being still 14ish a not long after the end of the series she still dealing heavily with ozai’s abuse and i feel like she still wants his approval. To get passes that, i feel like age would help. Early 20s you start to see how clearly a messed up childhood would occur. So i feel hers would come with aging and then she could reach out to Zuko for proper healing

This is the problem I have with modern Poison Ivy and Harley Quinn. It feels like the writers are trying too hard to make them sympathetic and moral ambiguous antiheroes because people really like them (and as even you pointed at the video, because they’re hot), failing to understand that what made them interesting was how evil they can be. Ivy was a representation of the evil of extremism in environmentalism or any social movement where she had the selfish mental of “I’ll harm and even kill as many people I want or need to get what I want.” Harley on the other hand was a cautionary tale about how a once intelligent and well adjusted member of society can be led astray and abused by a malevolent character and turn into an irreversible copy of that malicious being.

I wish we saw more character arcs in which a character improves WITHOUT moral redemption. An arrogant villain learns to put aside their pride, becomes more humble and at peace with themselves and thus more effective, but is still utterly selfish. Healthy =/= Good

I hate to say this but in recent years the term *Redemption Arc* have kinda lost core value in modern media and new writers fail to understand what makes the redemption feel well earned. Over the years have been either getting lazily written or rushed out the door at breakneck speeds instead of being written organically. This age we get redemption *Moments* or fast forward towards redemption without the proper build up Sure we’ve had some ups like Amity from Owl House, Sasha from Amphibia, Hunter from Owl House, and Crosshair from Star Wars Bad Batch. But we’re probably rarely gonna come across a redemption story as well laid out as Zuko cause that’s a VERY Tall order to build. Writers don’t have the same time to build that kind of level with every redeeming antagonist out there. Or being ‘controversial’ in giving it to increasingly vile characters who people think have gone “Over the Moral Event Horizon” Feels like it started with Catra from Netflix She Ra who some of the fandom still questions if she deserved redemption due to how extreme her actions and attitude were towards everyone , especially towards Adora and Scorpia. Or if Catradora should’ve happened. Then we have the Diamonds from Steven Universe and we all know how that went.

People don't exist in isolation just thanks to their free will, however. People are very much influenced and often conditioned by environments and social groups in ways neither party may fully understand. And the narrative purpose of a character may change as the story unfolds, particularly when it continues through multiple stories like it happens in franchises like this. The narrative, symbolic purpose of a character may very well be to show that certain kind of people exist and change.

Another interesting question is if Azula (or any character like her) even needs to be redeemed. She's a 14 year old who was purposefully moulded into a monster. Should she need to redeem herself or just need to be helped to become better?

Azula doesn't need a redemption arc she's fine the way she is

Azula definitely had room for character growth, the show never really delved into her mental health. Characters changing can represent the world changing too, and Azula growing shows us how much the world has changed

Per your points regarding Kuvira, I think it's a shame that they tried to backstep on some of the aspects of her in order to redeem her. It would have made for a much more interesting and compelling story to have a character arc with her addressing the evil things that she did and were done in her name, but for reasons that she doesn't believe in anymore. There are people in the real world who do horrible things for ideological reasons, but do move past their hate or beliefs. They might be better people, but the damage of their actions remain and they have to face that. Kuvira could have been an exploration of that. They even could have still gone with the arc of officers doing things without her knowledge, things she didn't approve of... but acknowledge her role in allowing it to happen. One of the very important aspects of leadership, especially leadership in the military, is that leaders are responsible for what their subordinates do. I think it would have gone a lot further for a potential redemption arc.If she acknowledged that she created that monster, and while she might not have known what was happening, it's her responsibility. Just simple things like that would have done a good job of turning the conversation around from whether she deserves redemption to whether she is earning it or not.

Thanks for the great video! I've always told other writers the exact same thing: Characters aren't people, they are characters. They are vehicles for us (the audience) to experience something; to build empathy around your story!

Vegeta in Dragonball has one of the most interesting redemption arcs in history. He’s a character who doesn’t want to be redeemed, but circumstances keep putting him in positions we’re doing the right thing is the the thing that aligns with his goals, until one day he realises that he’s not one of the bad guys anymore. Something that everyone around him already knew, but his pride had kept him from seeing itand it’s not until the Buu Saga he finally realises that and he’s okay with that too. I think there, really something beautiful in that narrative that should be explored further,

Whether or not Azur’s needs or deserves a redemption I think her having one could be an interesting take on how Ozai’s legacy has completely crumbled. Azula havinrhg some form of redemption and rejecting everything he taught her would be a great slap in the face of all that he was.

I always respect characters that stand on their convictions similarly to madara. Even if proven wrong they still do their own thing. Characters turning good was always boring to me

Redemption doesn't necessarily mean absolved of crimes: one of my favorite redemption arcs is Megatron joining the Autobots in IDW Publishing's Transformers: More Than Meets the Eye run, where after millions of years of failure Megatron decides (with the help of Bumblebee) to try a different path; he's not particularly guilty about his many crimes from before, at least not at first, but over time comes to see what a monster he truly was and eventually fully embraces the Autobot ideal, before finally giving himself up for either execution or eternity in prison (both of which he deems he deserves far worse). Excellently written by James Roberts! @ChrisMcFeely here on YT does a great read of one of the scenes detailing this here: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/rs1mlMxz0cjOY2w.htmlsi=m1g-oALTqBe-CZzA

I love your books!!!

This was very informative. I'm so glad I subscribed to your channel. Your work is fascinating

I appreciate how you discuss things in a clear-headed, nuanced, and thoughtful way.

Given all the talk about redemption, I'd even suggest looking at Arthur Morgan's redemption in Red Dead Redemption 2

One thing about Redemption arcs is a lot of people confuse it with punishment. People say they did all those terrible things and so don’t deserve a redemption but that is more talking about punishment and if they should be free after the redemption. I love redemption arcs and the best ones are with genuinely terrible people at the beginning. I am really hoping Hazbin Hotel, a story all about redemption, has the main character Charlie redeem most of her antagonists rather than double kill them. For Azula I want a movie or series all about Zuko being her Iroh more than anything

An element that I see in real life and that I like seeing portrayed in media is that no one can really know if someone will be redeemed or not, not even the person themselves. There have been very vile and horrible people who became the kindest and most loving people around who would even be willing to lay down their life to save the life of another. Then there have been people who are very polite, civil and pleasant to be around who end up never becoming anything more than that. When push comes to shove, they run away to save their own skin, possibly without remorse. It shows that humans are creatures with free will and that if we choose to be better people, then we can, even if it might be gradual and not as drastic as in some known stories.

people always deserve redemption but cannot always reclaim the damage they have done. characters are the same. you also have to remember that some characters are modeled after the kind of people that do not wish to be redeemed because they dont want to change

Amazing thumbnail and Always love a villain become a hero. Zuko is one of the BEST examples🔥🔥🔥🔥

I think wanting a redemption is purely about empathy. We want characters that are evil for sympathetic reasons to overcome their issues. Whether or not the specific story is served by a redemption is an entirely different question.

Love you brother keep doing what you do

Thank you for always putting my thoughts into words so eloquently, Tim!

Over all, I feel like Azula’s arc ending where it did in the show was fine, but I also think if you wanted to tell more stories with her post-show, redemption (or something akin to it) is the most logical direction to go. Continuing her spiral, or returning her to her status quo would both feel redundant, because that’s what we saw in the show itself. But goddamn, I’m upset to learn about Kuvira’s redemption. I wouldn’t even say that she couldn’t have a redemption, but that is not even close to the way to handle it.

As much as I hate to give DBZ any points for storytelling, both Piccolo and Vegeta have really interesting redemption arcs in their somewhat realistic portrayal of the influence of friends and family in creating acceptance and a desire to help and protect. They never try to soften their pasts, but instead they approach them coming to terms with their past attitudes. Of course, Vegeta is still a genocidal maniac and is never held accountable, so its not perfect, but it works well enough for a show like this

good show mate🖤

I watched through "Ranking of Kings" the day before seeing this, and as wonderful as the rest of the series was, the redemption of the primary villain there really put me off in the same way a redeption arc for azula would. Scene to scene the motivations and personalities of key characters are just different without explaination, allowing previously pure-evil characters to suddenly have nuance. It feels fine, until you realize the character they're trying to 'reveal' would not have made the evil choices in the first place.

This is exactly how I feel. Azula doesn't need a redemption arc. It's not the point of her character.

EXACTLY. Characters are not people. I fully believe that some people can earn redemption, but characters are meant to explore themes. They are meant to be USED to convey an idea, and, as such, should not be redeemed just because they "deserve" it. They should only be redeemed if the redemption tells the author's message to the reader about the exploration of the themes. We can't redeem everyone, or the themes and plot have no meaning.

I'd also like to point out that a character deserving redemption doesn't have to have that redemption fulfilled either. Some of the most interesting stories I've ever watched/read play with this concept and how all of the characters reapond to this.

Redemption doesn't just happen to a character, they work and change to become that better person - or they don't. So the story of the spirit saying "I can fix Azula" and predictably failing completely seems like it handles the trope very well actually.

I think the answer is relatively simple. Redemption arcs are often about forgiveness and of course redemption. About reaching a point where the good things outweigh the bad. Everyone’s done things they either have received or want to ask for forgiveness. We also want to believe that people aren’t inherently evil, that they can change under the right circumstances. Because if people who’ve done worse things than us can be forgiven, surely we can too. Bad examples are where forgiveness is thrown around like candy, like in some amime where an antagonist joins the hero’s team or side, even after they’ve killed several people and committed even more atrocities. A good example is Megatron from the IDW Transformer comics. He is part of the protagonists, but it is made clear that once their journey is over, he will be executed. The crew hates him for what he’s done, and even though he has genuinely turned over a new leaf, many just can’t find it in themselves to forgive him. In my opinion the best part is that he knows people won’t forgive him because he knows what he’s done. In spite of that he still does his best to help the protagonists, leading to what is maybe one of the nost badass moments in Transformers history (without giving too much away it involves antimatter)

Azula would never want to be redeemed, and would never ever make amends. The best one could hope for her is to become the world's most dangerour hermit somewhere. "You won. I lost. Now leave me alone, or else..." Kylo's redemption is a cheat. It has The Force as an in-setting enabler, but... just because you can make it make sense it doesn't mean you should do it in a story. Much of what makes sense also makes for boring or pointless stories. Kuvira was done dirty since her original arc, so a redemption arc can never be much worse than the potential already wasted in the first place. Clint Eastwood's Unforgiven is an OK redemption-ish arc with mixed results. The Sandman is kind of a redemption arc, even if you don't know it at first. MtG's redemption of Liliana Vess literally took years (and a couple deaths, and a couple worlds wrecked), but it kinda worked(?). All the best redemption arcs seem to be... complicated, as they should. After all, if it was simple, you could just go "now apologise and go back to play with your friends".

I really appreciate the delineation you made between real life and fiction. I think it's absolutely valid to view media through both lenses, as long as you're aware that's what you're doing. There's a much longer conversation about the need for media literacy in here.

Great video!

Sometimes characters especially villains are engaging because of their flaws. A redemption arc in this case risks removing what made the character interesting in the first place.

Redemption is a core topic of Hazbin, and im excited to see where Alastors arc goes, as he’s portrayed as pretty irredeemable, but still has sympathetic traits.

I have a story I've been unable to write because one of the main drivers of the story is a character who is preparing the world for an invasion so he can win a bet with the leader of the oncoming invasion. I've felt like I need to give this character a redemption arc, but I really like having a self-serving character set on wanting to win even if that does something good. This video helps me consider to look at what it would mean to give the character a redemption arc or not. I appreciate the thought provocation.

Wow legit noice stuff bro 😎

No one ‘deserves’ redemption. You can give them chances to redeem their mistakes, but it’s not like their character is any less without redemption. Azula is fine even without redemption.

My problem with this has always been the same: Azula is a traumatized, abused child who did not get the benefit of experiencing the kind of love, support and moral guidance zuko had. This always made her not getting redemption for me the one bitter drop in the ending of avatar. The idea that maybe this 14 year old girl who never got to experience any form of love and affirmation that was not toxic and destructive might be so fundamentally twisted and broken by the experience that there is no real possibility of a positive or productive future for her. As someone who has loved ones struggling to put a live together in the shadow of childhood abuse well into adulthood, that idea hits like a sledgehammer. Like...the story "works if you leave it like that " unless you identify with azula because you had Similar experiences and were in a similar place at her age (though hopefully with less genocide). In which case it ends on a gut punch. If you write a character like Azula you need to be aware that people with experiences like that (and often irrational anxieties that this has turned them irrevocably into a version of their abuser in some eay) in your audience. Leaving a character like that broken, with no capacity for positive or loving relationships and to do that with the kind of brutal finality you describe is a choice I would be very very weary to make.

I love you man. I'm signing up for Nebula now haha