Hey! I work in the Herbert C. Jackson. We don’t yell… sometimes :)

The real reason is two fold: 1) Crews are much smaller than they used to be, 2) Ship owners desire to maximize cargo capacity and therefore profits. So. smaller deck, engine and steward crews are housed together in one superstructure aft over engine spaces. It's almost always about the money. Hope that helps.

The forward pilot house design was characteristic of Great Lakes freighters in earlier times before radar or walkie talkies, and the place for the watchman to watch and listen for other ships when in fog, confined waters or poor visibility would be at the stem of the ship. The mate would be right behind him in the pilot house window and easy to communicate with. Today we have radios for the watchman and mate, but the watchman still has to be up forward. The whalebacks had the pilot house aft, but they were much shorter. With the pilot house aft, the crew can be kept in one house, and most of the machinery in close proximity.

Thank you for explaining this. I only recently rediscovered my love of old ocean liners. Then the Michapicoton popped up on my feed. I knew there were freighters on the lakes but realized I know nothing about them. They are wonderful. Excited to learn all I can. Thank you for your videos and information.☺

Nice video! a few things, the last forward pilot house to be built was the Algosoo, and you should put a photo on the screen of the ship you are talking about.

I'm fascinated with Great Lakes freighters and history,like your channel, keep the good content.

Interesting, I always wondered why people don’t make forward pilothouse freighter.

Also cost. It costs less to make the accommodations all in 1 area and in turn leaves more space for cargo.

I was a very lucky young boy. My Uncle was an Engineer on the great lake freighters. From early 70's to the two thousands. I got to ride in A unloading Hewlett in Cleveland harbor. And also got to be aboard several ships. Later I was A ship keeper on the " Indiana harbor ". And I am a very nostalgic man. Front pilot houses are more cool. Yet, sadly, the great lake freighters aren't the the same, as the way the jobs aren't as they were either.

Could be. The old straight deckers look better to my eye. The new ones look like a barge with a building plopped on the stern.

I operate a shiploader at the Goderich salt mine....the Algoma boats are our main carrier ....ive loaded thousands and thousands of hatches by now....I enjoy your channel ...thanks

I believe it has more to do with economics than anything else. It is cheaper to build one structure than two. and it leaves more space up front for a cargo hold. I don't know this for sure, just my thoughts. I still prefer the looks of a classic straight decker though.

I have been watching your content and am enjoying learning so much. Ye I’m 50 and in the past few years I have really gotten into the history of navy wrecks. This led me to the Great Lakes Ships which I’m learning more about each day.

I actually like the forward pilot house designs on the ships on the great lakes compared to the ones that is in the rear of ships of today the ones that still sail are great just wish they would make a come back

The same reason the railroad eliminated the caboose and all the crew...money! Both could run by remote so the need for a deck or cab remains only for liability issues.

Construction costs would have also been a consideration.

Awesome video. I like the format. Nice and relevant photos with a clear and understandable narration. I think the only thing I would add in a technical video like this would maybe be a side/profile view of various/similar hull and superstructure types. Photos are always great, but I also like a good blueprint image once in a while.

Nice video man. Can’t wait for the next one!

The control lines to the engine steering gear is shorter

As always another great vid and im happy i subscribed to your channel, now im thinking they stopped making forward house pilot freighters is just in case of a collision as its much safer to have the pilot house at the stern of a ship, i personally prefer the forward end pilot house ships but sadly we are slowly losing them, have toured on a few of them in Sarnia Ontario as well as been to a few christenings up there as well, keep up the great work and love your vids

THANKS, I LIVED CLOSE TO THE LAKE AND CUYAHOGA RIVER AS A KID WATCHING THESE SHIPS!

Another reason why they moved the bridge to the stern of the ship is because on a more modern ship you have the cabins, motor and bridge in one area thus you have more cargo space which means more money.

Great work friend!

They actually added 2 last year to the Great lakes fleet. One built in America and one from Netherlands. There hasn't been need for them till now as shipping shutdown other places. First built in the U.S. in 40 years since 1981.

I think main reason is profit - to increase cargo capacity. They have to build aft superstructure much higher than usual, to have better view. The downside of it, except loosing classical lake freighter aesthetics, is that inside of aft superstructure is incredibly noisy because of diesel engine's superchargers or turbochargers. You can hear this annoying whistling sound in video about Paul R Tregurtha accommodations.

I think it's wonderful that you looked into the change. I'm not the only one who wants to know. I do like the Pilot house in the Bow not because it is or isn't the best way to design the Vessel. If I could afford one surplus I would buy it and put it on a point as another guy did and make a home of it. Good work . More please if youve time. 😁

Nice! I would think another reason could possibly be that there would be limited visibility from waves crashing over the bow.

Thanks for clearing up a few things that I was wondering about myself, Lake freighters have always fascinated me thanks for the Post!

This is one of my pet peeves about great lakes freighters, I can't stand pilothoues on the stern, I can put up with it because I just applied to the Interlake steamship company but it would certainly be a eyesore if I ended up on one, I would just be thankful enough to be working on one.

2:16 Let's not forget to mention how slim your chances of survival are if you're hit by a rogue wave in a forward pilot house ship...

"Whoa this ones-" **imminent deafness occurs** Ah, the joys of ship watching!

Thank you! I did wonder about that!

Thanks for the information! Subbed… I’ve been getting videos(and posting on KZfaq) from Mackinac island of ships going by… it’s always neat to learn more about them..

My theory is that the forward pilot house design isn't necessarily gone. But no one has built a freighter in such a long time. I think the most recent built freighter was in 2018? I can't remember...but before that, the last true freighter built for the lakes was all the way back in the early 80s with the tregurtha. And she was a thousand footer. I think that had the economy been in a much much better place...we would potentially see a lot more new freighters on the lakes, some potentially with forward pilot houses to continue traditional styles...and some thousand footers

Modern cargo ships tend to be mostly stern bridged. Maybe the ship builders tjust flowed with the times.

I do a lot of kayaking in the Puget Sound. I saw one the other day and thought, what?

Nice video, man. I always wondered why lake freighters had the pilot house right up front.

Good job bud 👍 great video

In the beginning when the Herbert C Jackson hit its horn, Is that the bridge in Port Huron? Enjoying your videos. Cheers!

As The SalMaris notes, crews are much smaller today. From the mid 19th, and well into the 20th centuries, those vessels were powered by reciprocating steam engines, with coal-fired boilers. Not only was crew required to operate and maintain the engines, but numerous hands were needed to handle the coal. Add to that the required space for coal storage, it makes sense that since it was so crowded back aft, the bridge, chart house, captain’s quarters, etc, would be up forward. Engineering crew size would have shrunk with the advent of oil fired boilers, then steam turbine power and finally Diesel power. It’s said that today’s “snipes” don’t even get their hands dirty. I have Always loved those ships. (Anybody remember back in the ‘60s when SS Montrose sank in the Detroit River and fetched up on her side, up under the Ambassador Bridge? Some said- “Damn Salty! Had no business in those waters in the First place!”)

Thank you

A better question would be why was the unusual pilot house design adapted for the Great Lakes in the first place.

I think I'd rather sail a ship from the rear. Up at the front you're going to have some massive waves crashing over the pilot house.

HCJ part got me chortling. Thank you for this video.

Nice production and well-researched, I learned something and appreciate the whole presentation.

Cort wasnt the last forward end vessel? Algosoo was

Great video and explanation. I Love seeing them on Lake Erie and pass them often on the Cuyahoga River here in Cleveland on cruises in the summertime.

Why they stopped building forward pilot houses is capacity for more load and in rough seas people on bridge don't take a pounding

Tregertha has 2 ships, both front and back

Forward pilot house with aft engineering space puts an incredible amount of strain on the "spine" of the vessel. Weight at 1 end = good weight at both ends = not good.

well said

The Cort wasn’t the last ship to be built with the forward pilot house design. It was the only thousand-footer to be built with that design. Also, the Fitz wouldn’t have magically not nose-dived if it was a stern-ender, cause the common theory on how it would nose-dive is that a wave (similar to waves that passed the Arthur M Anderson, which was following the fitz, not long before) swept up the stern and pushed the bow down. This would still happen with a stern ender. The only way it wouldn’t is the added bulk of the thousand-footers preventing it. And arguments that the fitz’ crew would have been fine in a nosedive situation if the pilot house is at the back technically isn’t correct either, cause all 29 crewmen died, including the engine workers who were in the stern Not to mention that the fitz was the last vessel to go down on the lakes. Not a single ship has wrecked in 47 years, and there are still plenty of forward-pilot house ships on the lakes. The AAA-class freighters (Kaye E Barker & Arthur M Anderson as examples), are all older than the fitz, having been built in 1952, and they have not sunk, nor has Alpena or Lee Tregurtha, the two oldest ships on the lakes, both sporting forward pilot houses. I think the main reason they made the change is because diesel engines were smaller than steam turbines, so there was more space on the stern for a pilot house, and stern-Enders are considered safer and more reliable because of, as the person in the video said, the captain can see much more of the ship. Then again, it’s the Great Lakes, so unless you’re in a storm, you won’t really need to see the entire ship from the pilot house, since the waters are generally calm compared to the oceans.

Economics plain and simple. Lake freighters are expensive commercial vehicles. Every inch of space not devoted to cargo is an inch not generating money. It is really that simple at the end of the day. If one is going to take up any part of the ship with cabin and living facilities it simply makes more sense cargo wise to do it once on the craft rather than twice. Mariners themselves will advance arguments for and against forward pilot house as far as ease of navigation,however at the end of the day economics makes the current trend established of on rear cabin configuration the cheapest way to go in order to get the most cargo space overall. Engines are smaller and more powerful now, less actual crew is needed and modern electronics make the forward location of the pilot house is less of a necessity in the design. In the design phase one configuration can be simply designed to address all the needs and that cabin/operative structure can be married up to what amounts to a barge in front of it. It's a simplification. It cuts out miles of wiring and redundancy in materials needed to produce a multi million dollar craft. In private commercial enterprise, the bottom line is the only line!

It’s about the money. Good content.

Quick question, could it be that the overwhelming number of rearward wheelhouse freighter Captains from "salties" over the dwindling number of forward wheelhouse Captains? Were these Captains demanding the rearward wheelhouse no matter what? Curious

Hey is the American spirit in lay up still I think it’s the only ship not sailing right now as of April 2023

Watch the Jackson pass under the Blue Water Bridge often.

What did you use to edit and make this video?

How about if they snap the crew are split and loose control of everything/

There's still building forward house ships the maximum was built in 22

From the back can't see down in front of you Don't count on it not sticking any one can go to the bottom in

I'll betcha, it's because if radar was inop, in heavy weather they would be blind for the waves coming over the bow.

A another reason is the Addition cost of a forward super structure

🍻

There cheaper to make and easier to to put a off loader on them

💔 you made me sad

Hey, consider a rode nt1 mic, the mic you're using now sounds like a blue tooth lol, or at least get a neewer nw700 with an average interface Your subs will double fast! You have good content man, just need better audio! 🙃

I thought that the small shelter at front now was the outside 💩 house.

The forward wheel house is a waste of space. Moving the wheel house to the back gave freighters more hold capacity.

I don't know squat about these ships, but using the commentators logic I guess we should build all vehicles with the pilot in the rear -cars, planes, trucks, you name it. Apparently it is more important to know where you have been than where you are going. Now I've already admitted I'm stupid about these things, so don't waste your time reiterating it.

They did not a new one is Maxima from the Netherlands...and goes to the great lakes....

oh so this one is actually- *HOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAAAA* 0:27

Bro you shook the camera so much😂

Great channy kid

While I understand the reasons, history has proved the saying a ship is impossible to sink is not wise.

did ss Edmund Fitzgerald sank?

If you like I can send you some videos of loading salt into the intrepid or innovator or compass or Buffalo...your choice....cheers

Always thought it was moved because it is easier to fish from the stern, yuk, yuk, jk😜

I don’t Care, the Pilot House Forward & Engine Works Aft is *THE ARRAIGNMENT* For Great Lake Freighters.

pr໐๓໐Ş๓ 🙂

Its basic common sense.