I’m TRYING to take you in good faith your claims that you’re not trolling and are simply interested in research & behaviour. I will admit I’m entering this discussion a bit apprehensive as you haven’t produced any research links substantiating your concerns/questions, and instead list non-scientific things such as ARDO & Ivan Balabanov’s “opinion”. However, I will answer your questions assuming you TRULY are looking for my thoughts! You mention that this appears to be more an apparent discussion of ethics rather than behaviourism. When we’re discussing changing the behaviour of sentient beings within our guardianship, I would strongly debate that you CANNOT simply separate ethics & behaviour. However, assuming we were to do so, the onus for JUSTIFYING less ethical treatment would need to be on the person suggesting aversive techniques. In my research I have not found a SINGLE study substantiating better results with aversion. In your stated extensive research, have you? If not, I almost view the remainder of the discussion moot. Why would we choose a method that negatively affects welfare without any substantiated reason to do so?? I do not believe anyone on the force free “side” is arguing the efficacy of corrections. As an option by Skinner, they do lead to behaviour modification. That’s scientifically proven. HOWEVER, since there is evidence of the detrimental effects on welfare of their use and NO evidence of improved results, I would say they’re an “option” best unchosen. I will answer your questions in turn however: 1)You mention no evidence of this behaviour being modified without aversion. Can you link for me the study/studies showing that aversive training WAS effective for this where force free failed? I have not seen those or know of their existence. In turn, I’d state that lack of research on your specific musing is not evidence of results. I will link this study for you showing no evidence of better results using shock collars (aversion) than positive reinforcement on recall: www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1558787818300108 Main takeaways: -Coercive methods that inhibit the emission of a behavior without addressing its causes are not effective mediators of long-term solutions. (Fernandes et al., 2017) -In a study comparing the use of e-collars with the use of behavioral modification without e-collars in dogs with recall-related problems (Cooper et al., 2014), it was found that e-collars were indeed effective but that there was NO significant difference in reported efficacy between the treatment groups. The authors therefore concluded that there is no consistent benefit to be gained from e-collar training. If you’re accepting anecdotal evidence, my own dog successfully hunted & killed a rodent in her youth. With force free methods, she now successfully recalls from rodents. Within my video comments you will also see one stating that her dog killed livestock, and with force free methods now coexists independently amongst them. A discussion there may be of interest to you. Your mention of the 50k reward from ARDO as potential argument for aversion was my main red flag for whether this comment was meant to be trolling rather than true scientific debate. They requested one force free trainer use their methods to limit predation. I would argue that a sample size of ONE would hardly prove anything scientifically so ARDO was never after actual science, but I digress. To my knowledge, ARDO and their pledge was a farce. There is actually online discussion/proof that Richard (The Domesticated Dog) ACCEPTED the challenge, and was turned down. Jonas Black claimed they had accepted another trainer instead, yet REFUSED to ever name who that was? To my knowledge, Richard had even requested his lawyer legally accept the challenge. ARDO was the one that did not follow through, and the entire 50k appears to be showboating & hardly scientific evidence of anything. 2)Your question of whether it would be more ethical if ONE correction quashed stress that the dog would otherwise endure for a year without correction interests me. In that sense, I may agree with you. However, I have seen ZERO evidence of this being possible in practice. You mention research being conducted on that thought at Cardiff, but did not link said research. I would love to see it! Have there been any published results showing that the single correction DID in fact lower stress where other methods failed? Again, I will say that that scientific exploration of a question/possibility is not evidence of anything, especially if the study is still being conducted and the researchers haven’t published the findings of said exploration. 3)Your remark about Ivan Balanbov was my other red flag. Ivan claiming the necessity of aversive’s strikes me as simply an opinion or anecdotal versus truly evidence based, no? You title him as one of the most successful trainers. How is success in dog training defined? By winning contests? You appreciate research: Does he have the research to back up the claim of aversion being required at a certain point? Or does his word hold value to you simply because, as you claim, you view him as “the most successful trainer”? I’ve never viewed one trainers opinion or application as proof of anything, especially scientific necessity. As for the US K9’s pinch/remote collars: I believe as someone invested in research you would agree with me that one country or organizations use of a method hardly proves the NECESSITY of said method. Have you looked into more countries? I’ve personally spoken to Craig Ogilvie who was the former trainer for UK police dogs and used exclusively force free techniques there. I’ve also personally corresponded with the Finnish police force who confirmed that they also use exclusively force free methods. I have not substantiated this, but have also been told that Germany, Denmark & Sweden also use force free. Therefore there are many examples of protection being trained without force. Whether one country continues to do the opposite does not prove necessity. All that stated, I think trying to use one country or organizations use of tools as any evidence for their value in wider society is HIGHLY unsubstantiated proof. Second 3)As a personal opinion, I would personally call skillful incorporation of aversion an oxymoron. From my own practice, I found the more skillful I became with dogs the less I required force. However, we’re discussing research. I would direct you to this meta study on the affects of using aversion on dogs: www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1558787817300357 Zak George also recently did a video on this with substantial research linked. Those studies may be further reading if interested: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/eL19ksp5srfFhYU.html If we’re accepting “opinions” as validity in this discussion (opened by mentioning Ivan’s opinion on necessity of corrections) then the observation of stress, changed happiness levels, and fallout reported by substantial numbers of dog guardians & professional trainers commenting on this & my previous video should be equally considered. Surely if one opinion is held in such high regard, many peoples observations with their own dogs should be as well. 4)Your question of “is a little suppression really a big deal?” if it avoids euthanasia strikes me as a diversion from a true discussion about behaviourism. As stated, I have not seen a SINGLE study showing more effective behaviour modification using aversion rather than force free techniques. If we know that force free could modify that dogs behaviour equally well, there’s no validity in discussing whether the guardian being WILLING to put in the effort is a true representation of behaviourism. The “corrections versus euthanasia” argument is prevalent online, but I’ve always found it to be limited. In the example you’ve given, the dog is being treated as a possession that can be destroyed/killed when the owner decides. While that may be true in a legal sense, SHOULD those be the dogs two options? Again, when discussing this through the true lens of behaviourism as you stated, corrections or death are NOT the only two viable options on the table when we know (scientifically & in practice) that those results could be achieved with force free methods. So in your example, it’s the human sentencing the dog to death due to their own unwillingness to follow another viable option rather than the “method” failing per se. That opens an entire debate about SHOULD we treat dogs as possessions that I think goes beyond the scope of our discussion, but I believe my opinion on that matter is clear. I hope you do not take my response as combative. As stated, I do genuinely hope that your intention in posting was sincere, so I have taken the time to include my lengthy thoughts to your musings! I have a busy remainder of the week with clients, so I may be slow to reply if you have further thoughts. However, I encourage others within the force free community to post any helpful thoughts & research as well!

I will counter what you purport here with... "Severe punishment unquestionably has an immediate effect in reducing a tendency to act in a given way. This result is no doubt responsible for its widespread use. We 'instinctively' attack anyone whose behavior displeases us - perhaps not in physical assault, but with criticism, disapproval, blame, or ridicule. Whether or not there is an inherited tendency to do this, the immediate effect of the practice is reinforcing enough to explain its currency. In the long run, however, punishment does not actually eliminate behavior from a repertoire, and its temporary achievement is obtained at tremendous cost in reducing the over-all efficiency and happiness of the group. (p. 190) B.F. Skinner, Science and Human Behavior" You mention predation training apparently this is 2023s cause de jour that has taken the place of "but do you train hard dogs bro" but I'll bite. Yes there are plenty of trainers, that manage this without aversion. See Predation Substitute Training or even FF/R+ Snake Avoidance training done by Ken Ramirez. It's possible. There are quite a few countries where trainers cannot rely on aversive equipment should we purport that they must never run across dogs with Predation issues? Of course not. Also you mention Ivan Balabanov as somehow the measure of a successful trainer, fine. By what measure are we giving him that responsibility? Because of competition titles? Is that our singular measure of success? If so why? Why not all the vastly successful trainers that train any number or arguably more successful behaviors? Or even those titled trainers that don't rely on still compulsion thinly veiled as "sans conflict" training? Perhaps we need to reframe what is meant by "successful". Also FWIW many consummate professionals achieve lasting results without the use of aversives and punishment. If they can do it, and honestly their numbers are far too many to list here, why do we not consider them as the measures of success? The point being punishment exists in operant conditioning, Skinner, Brelands, Bailey, Pryor, Ramirez, Abrantes, Freidman and 80+ years of trainers don't need to use it. Nearly every reputable educational, veterinary, welfare organization have position statements against using P+ so again, why are we trying so so hard to make a case for it when we could be bettering our skills to decrease it's use.

Hi I'd like to comment on your first point "in cases where a dog has a history of rehearsed successful predation" My patterdale terrier came to me at a year old with a history of killing livestock. He was OBSESSED with chasing and killing. I have trained him force free. I was at an advantage I suppose that I had my own livestock to work him around daily, the process took around 6-8 weeks at which point he was off leash around my animals. He's gone from zero recall to probably the sharpest recall of all my dogs. My young bull terrier is also very driven by prey but again force free training has meant she is happily co existing daily with my animals. I don't see aversives in any way necessary for predation training. I was told my patterdale would only ever be safe around livestock with an e-collar, that punishment was necessary. I'm glad I didn't listen.

@@adastracanineco.8907 Thank you for adding your thoughts! Your opening paragraph by Skinner was a compelling statement that matches my own thoughts. I've never argued that compulsion can absolutely stop a behaviour. Of course it can. However, at what cost & at what necessity? If there was ANY evidence of it's requirement I could see arguing ditching ethical treatment in pursuit of behaviourism. But when there's not?

@@sarahpoacher7787 Thank you SO much for taking the time to add your experience! I think occasionally people read trainers mention science and roll their eyes about practicality in the "real world". Anecdotal statements like yours hold a lot of power!

I crossed over about a year ago after I took a course on dog body language and began to notice stress signals in my dogs when I used corrections. It was a pretty smooth transition for us because the corrections I was using didn’t work. I’m not one of those people who has the stomach to ramp up corrections until the dog complies. Learning about force free was one of the most validating experiences of my life because it opened a whole new world of communicating with my dogs in a language that we could all understand, and they liked engaging in. I felt relief knowing that I can achieve my training goals without doing anything icky to my dogs. I wasn’t apprehensive at all because I learned that science supports force free training. Also I watched videos of zookeepers using positive reinforcement to train zoo animals and I was absolutely in awe. If they can do it, so can I. There are so many resources for me to learn. Any question I have, any roadblock, any setback, I can turn to the literature or my force-free community for guidance. My biggest tip for people crossing over is to find a network. Talk to people who are training force-free and ask them for resources. You will find that whatever difficulties you have, someone else has had them and found a way to use force-free effectively in that situation. Keep learning and challenging your own beliefs because crossing over is a long but worthwhile journey. Good luck 🤞

@@cheesebread3 I appreciate this message & sentiment so much! 100% agree too about finding a network! There's SOMEONE who's been through your struggles & has the right knowledge!

I crossed over a year ago after I became uneasy with the amount of punishment and dismissal my trainer was telling me to perform. He told me my dog whining was just attention seeking and that he needed to learn what was acceptable. When I crossed over there were very few resources available to me. I ended up giving up on more than one occasion. Then I met people on social media who inspired me to keep going. The hardest thing to shake off was the mindset that everything was his fault, when in fact he was struggling and I was dismissing his fear which made it worse. A tip for people making the switch would be to build a community of people who inspire you l, teach you, and push you to keep going no matter what.

@@swisscheese174 Totally agree! I think it's important to remember that a lot of difficult dog behaviours are a sign the dog is HAVING a hard time, not giving you a hard time. I'm so glad you found a supportive community! They help so much 🙂

​​@@cheesebread3Right!?! Like the gorillas who willingly offer their arm for bloodwork to be drawn all for a little piece of banana after a click - amazing, no sedation, no fear, just willing participation and no one, including the animal is hurt. Love watching Steve Young and horses. Pain is the worst motivator! Pain messes with their brains. Hope that helps.

It's REALLY hard to change our "natural tendencies"! I think most of us were raised teaching with corrections. It's such a mindset shift & skill pursuit to change that!

Yep because force free is a proactive approach and punitive methods employ a reactive approach. To switch you have to change the whole mindset to "how can I set this training scenario up so that my dog understands what I want and gets it right" instead of just reacting when your dog makes a mistake (which is easier and requires less forethought).

Thank you for the lovely comment! I strongly feel that as FF grows, the availability of solid, free advice will as well 🙂 It's definitely a challenge for the human (trust me, I felt it too while trying to change my ways haha) but helpful guides will ease that struggle!

I can't love this comment enough! Thank you so much for sharing your story (both the successes AND your worries). I also had concerns that my dog would be poorly trained if I only used FF. There's a lot about dogs that we aren't born knowing (threshold, body language, etc). There should be zero shame admitting that & seeking help from someone experienced!

@happyhoundsdogtraining There have been so many worries. At times I still do wonder if I could swap back and be better off. Though every morning, I look at myself in the mirror and look at my dogs, and Im like, "Hmm. Who would benefit more from that?" Mostly because loose leash walking is the thing I have always struggled the most with. 🤣🤣 Definitely! I wouldn't be where I am without my mentor. Even though she's across the country, Im in the search of another mentor locally to help me fine-tune my mechanics and prep for my CPDT-KA test. ☺️ Its always a great idea to partner with someone more knowledgeable than yourself, and always strive to know more!

Thanks Ali!! Don't get me wrong: I LOVE the science & facts too! I also think it's important though to display things in clear, humanized "this is why!" analogies too 😀 Totally agree with the last line- there's a massive difference between not knowing better & intentionally doing something despite knowing better!

Totally agree! It's like trying to solve a psychological puzzle 😂 But man, when you do, it feels great!

Thanks! That's PRECISELY my goal ♥😀

I REALLY appreciate this comment because it sums up my own thoughts & experience. I'm hoping this video helps people avoid the mistakes I made during crossover!

I LOVE this story!! Thank you so much for being willing to share it. Sometimes it's really hard to admit (especially to ourselves) that we might've messed up or caused harm. We can only do the best with what we know at the time though! What impresses me SO much is when people that are willing to self reflect & have those difficult discussions with themselves (and then follow through on the change!) ♥

Thank you for sharing also ! Glad your on the right track ! My clients have had other trainers tell them giving treats is cheating - to which I would say , “when your boss pays you … is he cheating” ? 😀

Couldn't agree more!! It's really fun to watch them SO excited to learn!

I'm so glad you enjoyed it!! I completely agree that corrections are unnecessary!

Thank you so much!! I love your point about healthcare as well. Across ALL fields things are supposed to grow & improve. We can stay stuck in old, unproductive ways OR we can learn & do better!

@@happyhoundsdogtraining exactly! So glad I'm learning much more than I realized from your content 😁

♥

Thank you! I don't know how my brain came up with the vacuum analogy, but once I had the thought I've never been able to "un-see" it 😂

It was a FANTASTIC essay, thank you! I absolutely love that saying: Train FOR the situation, not IN the situation. Such an important distinction! I've taken the Master Aggression course and found it fantastic!

Amazing!!! I love hearing other stories of crossover and commitment to learning force free skills ❤️

Oh gosh!! That's traumatizing about the chow chow attack! I also apologize on behalf of FF for how unwelcoming "we" were! I'm sadly not surprised. I try to remind people often that if we're promoting treating dogs with kindness we sure as heck should also be treating each other that way! I've seen jerks on both sides of the "training debate".

@@happyhoundsdogtraining totally agree, I have seen many cases where people actually crossed over from balanced to ff, because they met a ff trainer/friend/activist that were accepting of their situation (not shaming) and with healthy discussion helped them realize they would not like to rely on pain or discomfort to achieve something if it's possible in another way

@@taro.m.tI always find this so difficult! As someone who works with tons of people everyday, when a dog comes to me in a prong or slip lead I’m desperate to get it off, to explain how damaging these tools are, but it’s hard to not come across as judgemental in these situations. Especially when both me and the client know that as soon as the tool is removed it’s going to make the owners life much less convenient by removing the use of suppression.

Hi Wendy. I wanted to take the time to reply to your message. I’m glad my video did not offend you as that wasn’t my goal with it at all! I want to address some of the things you mentioned. I would disagree that force free doesn’t address dogs as an individual. In order for it to work, we have to massively individualize each training plan as every dog will have different strengths and struggles. While the vast majority of my private client business is reactivity & aggression, I don’t believe I’ve suggested the exact same interventions for any two dogs! Rather than a blanket method such as “correct whatever we dislike” we need to get to know the dog, learn to read them, and set up situations so that they CAN be successful. That’s going to look vastly different for each dog. I’m not sure what you mean by dogs acting cult-like? If we observe street dogs we notice that ritualized displays of aggression (putting on that loud, scary defense) is fairly common, but full blown fighting is not. Injuries are too costly from a survival standpoint. I think it’s wonderful that you’re trying to train your reactive dog force free! Redirects & biting are obviously something we want to avoid, as is the practice of those behaviours. With that I agree with you! However, I disagree with corrections being required to do so. I teach both my reactivity and aggression clients how to observe and respect dog’s threshold levels and recognize the canine ladder of aggression & body language. Dogs bite when over-threshold, so a MASSIVE part of proper force free training is management & avoiding situations in which they’d feel that’s required. With proper desensitization & counter conditioning, that same dog can handle “harder and harder” scenarios. I’m not sure if you’ve hired any of the force free trainers in your area, but if you can find one with aggression experience, I’d highly suggest it for even one session! Learning how to recognize & read YOUR dog is fundamental for force free to work. While you state “the real world is punishing” I don’t think we need to intentionally add to that in the name of “training”!

@@happyhoundsdogtraining Thanks for taking the time to respond to my comments. I actually meant that the force-free training philosophy appeared cult like because every trainer is doing it now. I like that you take the time to work with your dogs and create a specific plan. Since you work with reactive and aggressive dogs, I cannot fault you for lacking experience. As an owner of a reactive dog, I think my biggest problem with force free is that it takes so long. From experience, you know that many of us feel under pressure to get our dogs under control quickly. There are people who have reactive dogs whose dogs are one bite away from being declared vicious. Personally, my dog is so strong, I am finding it hard to not be pulled over by him. Since he is very interested in chasing cats, and would probably kill one if he caught it, this is urgent for me. If my dog bites me, I will correct him. I am not comfortable not letting him know that this is not okay. Everyone is force free in my area is force free and I am working with a force free trainer. I am really trying, but I seem to get better results with corrections ... a quick pull on a martingale collar. I now understand that when I do that you think I am hurting my dog. The puzzle is coming together quickly and I am beginning to understand this philosophy. With respect to thresholds, I think reactive dogs have incredibly low thresholds for certain events. It is almost impossible to keep them from going over threshold. Children should not be punished physically, but somehow people manage to hurt them and mess with their heads. I hope this is not happening to our dogs. When all is said and done, it comes down to the time pressure that I feel that makes force-free challenging for me.

Hi Jenna! Thank you so, so much! ♥ Your comment was lovely to read & much appreciated. Our stories sound almost identical. Personally it helps a lot to hear acceptance for previous methods, and meet fellow crossover trainers (especially those working behaviour!). Professionally I think it's SO important for people reading to see MANY statements of ff success with "difficult" behaviour. Thank you again for taking the time to comment!

Thanks so much!

Huge respect to you for noticing the fallout! Many people don't make that connection & just blame it on the dog!

Totally agree! I used to co-teach in puppy classes and the "puppies struggling" were always due to poor reinforcement timing & unclear boundaries!

Hmm. Perhaps I've just had a much different business experience than you have, but I often work with aggression & reactivity and haven't noticed the same pattern. Frustration & anguish from the dog guardian for sure!! However, I often find that there's a way to use management to immediately "stop" the behaviour & let both the dog/guardian decompress while we implement the actual training plan.

I love your story. Thank you so much for sharing it! It takes a lot of conviction to stay true to something when you're facing opposition. Props to you for that! I'm hoping as force free becomes more "normalized" there will be a wealth of access to high quality information (in all languages!!) ♥

I can appreciate that you went through a really hard situation. Euthanizing a dog is never easy, regardless of reason. 😞I did have a few curiosities reading your comment though. Do you watch videos such as this one to continue learning for your next dog, or for another purpose? And in the time with your dog, did you just work with one trainer or did you get multiple opinions? Unfortunately, I do find on both “sides” of dog training there are trainers that take on cases that are out of their depth. For example, if I got a request to help with agility or protection training, I would decline. They’re simply not my specialties. When you mentioned 4-5 hours of training per day required for training, that red flagged me. I’d never suggest more than 30 minutes a day to any of my clients, so I hope that wasn’t a suggestion from the trainer you hired! In potential defence of your trainer, there’s a lot that we can’t control, therefore we cannot make guarantees. Things such as reward timing, understanding body language, respecting threshold, meeting needs, etc are all things we can teach to clients, but we cannot guarantee are followed through with when we leave. All of those will have a massive impact on whether training is successful! I think a lot of your question comes down to ethics as well. You asked “Is it better to avoid those correction but have a stressed out owner?”. Ideally, neither. I make sure my clients feel they have the skills & plan set up to DECREASE their stress about their dog’s behaviour, not increase it. I also would ask the question: If you have a dog struggling with THAT many issues, is it fair to use corrections to decrease the “symptoms” that are bothersome to you? For example, correcting a dog doesn’t fix the underlying cause of their reactivity. I liken it to taking the batteries out of a smoke detector when there’s still a fire in the house. What happened initially to lead to that many behavioural concerns? If a dog is struggling that much, I don’t view it as fair to punish them for their struggle. I think if we don’t have the proper time & patience to invest in a dog, we shouldn’t have one. I would caution the “seeing is believing” stance. I work with many reactive & aggressive dogs without filming their sessions. If a dog has a serious bite history, the last thing many people would want while working on that is a camera in their face. However, yes, I do have some such videos on my channel & have more coming. The Louie series features a large dog that was extremely leash reactive to men & other dogs. I haven’t shown all of his videos yet, but in ~ a 6 week timeframe I had him loose leash walking without reacting past his triggers. I hesitate to give timeframes like that however because every dog is going to be different. I would never want someone faulting their dog because it didn’t “change” as quickly as Louie. I also have upcoming series featuring dog-dog aggression (pitbull & mix breed that fought to the point of scarring), as well as a series on resource guarding featuring clients with human bite histories. The only reason I felt comfortable even asking to film those sessions is due to a prior history with the clients. Typically, I would never ask to film when meeting an aggressive dog since the guardian is already stressed enough. I suspect many force free trainers feel the same and therefore there’s not a lot of video “evidence”. Hope that answers your question!

@@happyhoundsdogtraining I'm draw to watching dog content because I'm in a greiving process and I want to understand what went wrong, guilt is coming up wondering if I did the right thing, wondering if I had did differently maybe thing could of unfold differently. As for the 4-5 hours, I'm refering to the total daily caring of my dog, as in the end it took me a good 3 to 4 hours per day just for walking/feeeding/training, so when I say 4-5 hours, I meant once I realize how of a mission my dog was, it would of mean doing his daily caring(4h) and adding an extra hour to educate myself. As of the training, I never knew it was 30 minutes max per day, but the dog was asking so much of me, I don't think I ever did more than 30 minutes of training, most of the time was the walk/feeding. For the first 7 months, I had only seen one trainer and she never advise to see different trainer. When I saw the second trainer, he actually advise we see different trainer to get different perspective. It could of help to find a trainer that the communication was better. It felt we had difficulty to understand each other, difficulty for me to ask question, difficulty to ask more clarification when her answer/instruction were unclear or I was struggling to make sense of them or needed more a step by step explanation in detail. I learned that it is important to look for different dog trainer at first to make sure to find the right match for the owner and the dog. As of all the behavior issue, we got him from a shelter. The previous owners were afraid he was going to bite them and his second family, of one week, brought him back because he had bite one of them. The shelter say he had issue with body handling, ressource guarding, going for trash and had anxiety, but they weren't aware of his full condition (that's what they told me in the end when I call them to get advise on what to do next). Also, he had so many issue, while I was working on the leash/muzzle, I didn't have time to work on other issue and over time, it just seem thing got worst and worst before we can even work on them. It's like as I'm working on a specific threeshold and making progress on one, the other thresshold were getting smaller. Exemple of behaviour going worst : Him reacting to big dog, the trainer advise us to work with him on the leave it and on ignoring dog from afard and keep working on that until when the other dog was close he would ignore them. The distance improve as he would ignore dog closer and closer, but we never manage to get to the objective in 5 months and in the meantime his reaction to big dog just got worst and worst. Since the distance was somewhat improving, we told the trainer it was improving and she told us to keep working at it. Another thing is snow. At the end of november we got a good amount of snow, and it was like loosing 5 months of leash training. Then if there were no new snow, it would take 1-3 day for him to be a bit more stabalize, but it still felt we had revert back 3 months of leash training Than you just needed a new snow and we were back to 5 months ago, repeat the 1-3 days and he was back to 3 months ago in term of leash training, until the next good snow. As for his agression, at the beggining when we brought our concern, when we got face with situation where we end up being bite, we brought those with the trainer and it was always, I did XYZ, he react because of this element, it was always rationalize and there were not much ressource to control the situation, just way to reddirect, that got me very much helpless, i have to deal with such danger and I must not hurt the dog at all cost, even a correction while me and my girlfriend felt we were getting at risk. It just felt it was always on us, so we naturally stop bringing most of them, we just felt it was normal and we just suck for making mistake again and again and again. We just blame ourself all the time for all the agression we face and trying to do more and more and more management, until I had to manage 15 differents factor on a walk and still felt like I failed because I didn't manage those 15 things properly and he had a very bad reaction. I didn't knew anything about dog, so I trust my girlfriend to know what she was doing. Some people are the style "let's jump in the pool and learn to swim as we go" and that was pretty much the way my girlfriend approach this, so we end up with a very big gift. On top of that, she didn't had the physical capability to take care of such of a powerful dog, so I end up being the main daily caregiver (walk/feed/training). That is another reason I'm looking into those video, I want to understand what it is to take care of a dog, what are the option and if I decide to adopt a dog again, it will be from a place of knowledge and not of ignorance and outsourcing the responsability. In an ideal world, the following affirmation would always be true : "I think if we don’t have the proper time & patience to invest in a dog, we shouldn’t have one". Nowadays people make mistake and they take on responsability without knowing what they get themself in and they have to do the best they can with what they have. Maybe not all dog owner have the capability or the will required to do force free method and other method might be more adapted for some of them. Our world is asking us to be more and more efficient and is more and more fast pace, it just doesn't seem realistic we will reach a point where all dog owner will do force free method. The world is not perfect, so sometime you have to make the least evil decision. Is it better to stress a dog 15 minutes per day and reduce the stress on the owner by 50% for 8 hours or is it better the whole of the stress is on the owner shoulder. If the owner is more stress, it has an impact on the dog. Often it seem force free method is all about the dog well being without taking into consideration the well being of the owner and the context. That's how I fell when I see some of those force free youtuber, saying this scientific group proove it's better in the long run to do force free method VS balance. What about the well being of the owner? What is the point of avoiding stress to a dog at all cost, if it mean I will have to carry all the stress on my shoulder? The training has to be realistic and that mean taking the owner, dog and environment into consideration. There is some issue that were more than just bothersome, but risky, so what about using correction to reduce significantly the risk on a specific area (Ex. him reacting and going after other big dog when we came across one, from a blind spot with an icy ground). I understand you're concern about giving timeframe. On the other side, from a completly ignorant perspective it really help to have a ball park humber as point of reference. Thanks for providing some reference of timeframe. In the end, I think any good trainer should aim to educate their customer to the best of their ability, not hiding anything, making the customer well aware of the risk/benefit and letting them make their own decision and support them in thoses decisions(which doesn't mean to help the customer with balance training but to allow the customer to do their own experience and be there if they reach out for your help). Sometime experience is the best way for someone to learn and no amount of information/theory will convince someone more than an experience. Ideally before jumping into an experience, you're somewhat aware of what you're getting yourself into. Thanks for your reply and question, it help me write about element of my adventure with my dog and it's helping me with the greiving process.

@@Tlogos47​​⁠I’m not really sure the entire point here as the dog seemed to have severe behavioural issues that sound neurological, compared to a foster experience I had. You say it’s to educate the consumer then just argue generically against the method of force free for inducing stress on the owner. However, in adopting a dog known to have behavioural concerns this seems ill-founded to allocate blame with a training method when the symptoms were present prior to the method. I am sorry the rescue didn’t provide you the proper supports to mitigate the concerns. In terms of your critique of the method through a small sampling of trainers and an emotional perspective, FF isn’t providing a dog a life where they will never be stressed. It’s not purposely inducing stress, pain or discomfort for training. It’s providing them resources to independently handle the stress and manage their emotions, not suppress them. A dog in FF will still experience stress but they will be able to manage their emotions and TRUST their owner. To trust their owner, we cannot be the ones inflicting pain on them. To argue adding additional discomfort would reduce stress would be its own bucket of fish. My lab Arley had severe separation anxiety, she would SCREAM, claw, shake, destroy whatever she good get and engage in destructive behaviours on herself and eating things. Many times, I would try to drown the noise out or leave the house for my own well being. I could’ve used force to burden her with the stress and make the symptoms less stressful for me (which seems to be your argument that an animals symptoms create stress for you). However, no animal displaying such a degree of symptoms can hardly be argued to be “stress-free” so they already appear to have SUBSTANTIALLY more stress than you and are relying on you as their guardian to mitigate such. In taking the time initially to create value in a kennel, we’ve spent over 500 hours slowly creating safety in what was once a scary place. She was never forced in, never shushed or hit to stay quiet. Instead of mitigating my stress my suppressing her symptoms, I addressed part of the underlying cause and we are both more stress free because of it. Moreover, we’re more bonded from the trust she instilled in me through the process. Also you note people shouldn’t invest in a dog if they don’t have time to do so but you adopted a large, high energy working dog known to have behavioural issues and then were disappointed by the time such a commitment took? That seems to undermine the philosophy of such a point. When you purchase a dog there is no set time per day, although you want a ballpark for training behaviours, animal parenting also doesn’t have a timeline. Every dog is unique. I have one dog who is fine with an hour of total care a day, one who needs closer to 3 hours and one who consistently needs 5 as he’s a puppy so there’s more pees, more meals, more play and more management when not kennelled. It’s my job as their guardian to meet their needs. I hope you’re having a great day and am sorry to hear of your loss. Just my two cents as not a professional but someone who has used these methods with a difficult dog behaviour myself.

@@kennybuttons1 thanks for your answer it really bring perspective in my view of the whole situation

Completely agree!

Thank you so much! And I do, yes 🙂 I'm a team of one haha, so all the scripting, filming & editing etc is all me 😀

@@happyhoundsdogtraining same here. Your editing skills are very good. Well done!

Thank you, and I agree! I get frustrated when people think force free means no boundaries or a “misbehaved” dog. I have VERY high expectations with training, but I teach those skills with kindness and fun. I truly used to believe force free wouldn’t work, so I’m hoping that I can change that perspective for other people too by showing my training with a huge variety of dogs 😊

Thank you so much! I'm glad you enjoyed it!! ♥ Replied to your private message too 🙂

From science & my own practice/business, yes, force free absolutely works for serious aggression/behaviour modifications. Part of my point in making this video was to convey that exact point: ff isn't just for puppies & "simple" stuff! I've heard the argument about corrections being necessary to "save a dogs life" but I don't see the merit behind it. Can you give me an instance where you think that would be true? Force free works great for behaviour modification, and while building those new skills management is put into place to stop the rehearsal of that behaviour. Why would force free cause that dog to die?

@@happyhoundsdogtraining Thank you for your reply, I would really like to have an open mind and am trying to learn more about FF. TBH I am not a very good trainer and have a lot to learn. One example I can think of is a dog that will run (and run far and fast) every chance he gets, with the risk of being run over by vehicles. How do I correct without using an aversive or negative consequence? Michael Shikashio is (I think) another crossover trainer who was on a podcast recently with Ivan Balabanov. A really very interesting discussion. Would love to see you discuss FF with Ivan as well.

Thank you for coming back & continuing a healthy discussion! I think it's fantastic that you're willing to have an open mind. Few follow-up thoughts on my end: - I'd encourage you to try to change the way you think about dog training. Rather than "How do I correct this thing that I dislike" try rephrasing it as "What do I WANT the dog to do, and how can I teach THAT?". Subtle word difference, but results in a huge difference in practice. For the dog that runs: Have you trained & proofed their recall? That's a skill that can be taught FF. If they're chasing an animal, have you worked on a "leave it" cue or impulse control? If they're a high prey drive breed, do they have healthy outlets for that behaviour? And I'd also question why a dog NEEDS to be off leash near traffic. Perhaps the most important change would be only letting them off-leash in safer areas. In higher traffic zones, a harness & long line provide much of the same benefits as being off leash without the risk. - I haven't listened to that podcast, but I have taken Michael Shikashio's Master Aggression course & would recommend it if you're looking for more info about FF & behaviour change :) He's also hosting a webinar this Thursday where an awesome trainer shows how she works with an aggressive dog. I think it's $20? It might be a good example of what you're hoping to observe/learn though!

@@happyhoundsdogtraining Thank you! I am going to sign up for the webinar. And intend on taking the Master Aggression course too. My initial thoughts and reaction to your video was skepticism, but your kind words and welcoming response changed that. Thank you again.

No, it doesn’t. If a dog is days away from euthanasia, the only way is through corrections first and then building through FF. of course FF is the best way to train l but positive reinforcement takes time and some dogs don’t have that in their side

Thank you! Glad you enjoyed it 😀

Thank you so much!! I'm glad you enjoyed it 🙂

I like suggesting two leashes! When the dog grabs one, drop that one. Limp noodle = not a fun tug toy.

@@happyhoundsdogtraining I've done that too!

I'm so glad you found it helpful!

@@happyhoundsdogtraining can you make a video on what schools are good and the pros and cons I’m trying to figure out what school I should go to

@@hennessygarciahg Hi! Without firsthand experience at every school, I'd be a bit worried about making claims about which ones are good/bad. Sorry!

@@happyhoundsdogtraining do you know of any people that has been to the schools? If you do, you can ask them if they want to do a video or some thing

@@hennessygarciahg Was there a particular school (or few) that you're considering? Example: Karen Pryor Academy, etc

Thank you! 😃

Thank you! It was SOOOO hard to film with a straight face hahaha, but it got the point across 🙂

Thank you!

IAABC has a program, Karen Pryor Academy, CATCH Academy, Victoria Stillwell academy, Academy for Dog Trainers, Ethology Institute are some good places to start looking.

@@adastracanineco.8907 Thank you so much! I know about VSA, I grew up watching it's me or the dog, but unfortunately it's currently outside of my price range. One day though I hope to take it! But I've started looking into some of the other ones you've suggested and it looks more affordable for me. Thank you so much!!!! ♥️

@@funsized4036 I would look at the upcoming IAABC Professional Dog Trainer program then, it is very competitively priced.

Thank you for adding this awesome list! I second it 🙂

Trying my best! 😂♥

But yes. Force free should be the first tool used. But the vacuum analogy is absolutely dymb.

I find overly dramatic, unsubstantiated statements like this unhelpful to the discussion. Mind sharing where the 20x came from? Because 1) What you said is completely untrue and 2) I would STRONGLY argue that when working with a sentient being the speed of perceived "results" should not be the top barometer of "success"

@Happy Hounds Dog Training it's not the barometer for success. It's the barometer for TIME. If you work 8 to 12 hour days, that matters. But if all you do is dog training, then not so much. That was the point.

And if your trying to tell me it doesn't take longer in time, then here's an analogy for your vacuum. Which technician would fix your vacuum faster and better... one with all the vacuum tools made, or one with only limited amount of tools?

But I'm sure that most "vacuum" problems can be fixed with simple and "noninvasive" tools. But some problems may need special and more invasive tools. I know we are talking about a living, breathing creature of God. So I will continue to respect and love my dog. Just using your vacuum analogy.

I find overly dramatic comments like this unhelpful to the discussion. How did we go from corrections = immediate compliance to rewards = 6 years?? I've absolutely gotten dogs recall "dog park ready" in 4-6 weeks. I'd say that's a pretty reasonable pace for a creature to learn an entirely new skill!

I mean by your logic 6years means you are only calling your dog once a day every other day. If you are expecting any other results with you lack of commitment to training that's a you problem. Not a dog or a methodology problem. I haven't even had my puppy 3 months and he is already off-leash trail hike ready. But ya know, I actually put in some work. 🙄🙄