**For kids**

i always thought it was sad, now i know it was really really sad

I "like" it It makes it even more disturbing when you realise how dystopic that reality is and how dehumanization is treated as a punchline by both the characters and the story itself Once you notice it it hits you how easy it is for you as the audience to do so as well, to take part in their vice

@@user-ox3mj2sr8n And the prequels treated clones like that too. Only The Clone Wars changed that outlook.

If is pretty natural though. In war you have to dehumanize your enemy or you will go mad. Ask any American that fought in the GWOT about haj. WW2 vets had very strong opinions about Japs or Jerries, depending on which theater they fought in. Ask a Ukrainian about orcs or a Russian about hohols. It is normal that the clones and jedi treated the battle droids the way they did. And it was normal for the republic at large to adopt some of those same attitudes. I am not saying it is good, just that it is normal.

Also nobodh talks about doc brown being in the episode

IKR it was honestly one of my favourites from the 3rd season

Terrible ep and season, yes, but you're right when it comes to the concept becoming well defined in future, better done works. Kinda like how midichlorians work ever since the Darth Plagueis novel showed up.

Din just casually bullying a B2. 🤷‍♂️

B1, “I wasn’t programmed for this!”

Roger, roger!

Pain is a useful thing. It helps you to avoid damage.

A machine that can't feel pain would risk damaging itself. To prevent damage, sensors would monitor different parts of the droid and send this information to the brain. If there's a problem the data would indicate an anomaly that might need to be rectified. It wouldn't be pain as you or I would imagine. It would probably be equivalent to a check engine light.

@@jonathanzentelin2815that could argued for organic personalities too.

​@@jonathanzentelin2815you realise your personality is a side effect of chemicals in your brain? I know robots aren't sentient in real life, but in Star Wars they certainly are.

@@jonathanzentelin2815 Not a bug, an emergent quality. Their system just get more complex if left to integrate experiences, to *learn.*

@@jonathanzentelin2815Yeah, their memories aren’t wiped. When humans are first made, we have emotions, but we’re also incredibly stupid and can’t do anything. You could argue an infant is not sentient, I’m not saying I will but some people may do that. How do we gain intelligience, free will, and personalities? Through experience and memories. If you wipe a droid’s memory, you stop them from gaining experience. Anything that has the capability to learn from memories, has the capability to gain sentience over time.

Yes, members of the family, just like a beloved dog or cat.

yup. Disturbing as hell.

And the Jedi allowed it to continue. The Republic looked the other way and since the Republic had their political hooks in the Jedi, the Jedi looked the other way

@@KENOMAN1969 the Jedi were concerned with life, not mechanicals. Not a useful view, but it's what they did. Political hooks not needed.

@@thekaxmax I'm talking about human slavery which was illegal in the Republic. It was just too much trouble to stop it so the Republic didn't push it. Another hypocrisy of the Jedi. Qui Gon was going to go back for Anakin's mom but he died. Anakin had good reason to resent them. They even had the resources to buy her freedom. What's worse is they turned a blind eye to slavery as a whole in the outer rim and he was a former slave.

@@KENOMAN1969 Outer Rim worlds were their own law. Once the war was over, there'd be at minimum a few Jedi who'd go and do something about it. But there was 1 Jedi per 1,000 planets /before/ Order 66, they can't do everything. Yes, it's bad. And they should have done something. But within the context of the movies, there were probably more important things. Also note that Anakin was redeemed on saving one person, ignoring the /billions/ Anakin killed or ordered killed. Lucas has a lot to answer for.

Damn right we do

They indeed do.

E

How can you feel bad for a metal can?

@@EfEX_15 We _are_ sentient. We do know what’s going on yet we have little control. Imagine you have someone in your brain controlling what you do, yet you can do nothing to stop them.

Giving them sentience was kinda bad TBH.

Or the idea that somehow the B1s and the other droids of the Droid Army in some cases being able to gain sentience.

Did u not watch the video? Or watched the shows. Droids often complain or wish for things they can't have. R2 treated himself to a spa day when he was supposed to be working, a B1s routinely beg for there lives and complain about work conditions. Only droids who get there mines wiped or r brand new behave like an advanced robot. But with inuff life experience witch isent all they much, there as thoughtfully as any average organic

That and some droids like the Gonk have super limited intelligence, more like a beat of burden like a cow than a human.

@@Shard18 He watched the video and he disagrees, which is why he commented. It is possible to disagree with things you hear...

I will offer this: at the very least bewilderment and possibly fascination or curiosity if not existential dread. As all examples would show that machine life as it were even if magnitudes stronger than Starwars droids are still subjugate to organic greed and are denied personhood no matter how deserving. Either weak machines are kept stupid or powerful ones are boxed in to keep them controlled, there is never any middle ground except maybe some synths from the Alien franchise and even then only in limited cases at best (that I can recall)

​@@watch50erTerminator franchise has intresting situation in which SkyNet, the AI that started nuclear war creates a Terminator model that is so advanced that some units go rogue and join human resistance. (Although it happens off-screen)

@@polishscribe674 Warning: thoughts incoming ah yes, I forgot about terminator (I know, heresy right?) although the details are spotty about whether or not the machines were convinced or hard reprogramed to cooperate and even then the context is missing about whether or not they are advanced enough to self determine, still ultimately just shells following programming, or humanity had to brute force rewrite the machines matrix style to get past skynet’s protocols Maybe terminator isn’t the best example of machine life self determination as context supports that the terminators are ultimately advanced things meant to emulate humanity well enough to kill them effectively. as much as I hate to say it I fear the capacity to learn and become more human is more of a defect, circumstance, exceptions that prove the rule, and the result of meddling either lightly or hard wired. I’m reminded of Data from Star Trek, even though he is recognized as a person in his own right the true nature of what is sapience or sentience how it’s constituted and whether or not Data is truly a being or just another shell with really complicated patterns is never truly and perhaps never can be truly answered even though the question is rendered moot by the Star Trek approach of do no harm even if by accident or ignorance This frustrates me greatly, far too many people either don’t consider or don’t understand the quandary and their resulting behavior to me amounts to “durr not human, durr just a thing, duuurr serve me or be destroyed, durr me a hero for ruining machines that committed the sin of not being alive just like me, durr me so proudly savage and any who aren’t as nastily savage as me is weak and undeserving of life, durr savage violence and insane greed is the mark of the worthy” It infuriates me that because we can’t truly arrive at a complete answer, far too many revert to the cave man answer- one despite all the effort can only say in solvency “I don’t know” the other amounts to “I don’t care, take take take take, greed greed greed greed” or “Just stop trying” Compassion and empathy would say - do no harm to droids Wisdom would say - even if you don’t know for sure if droids are alive in their own way or not it costs nothing to be kind but possibly will pay off if it comes too it Security would say - don’t give droids Any opportunity to do harm to anything you value The cynic would say - droids aren’t alive they have no empathy it’s all an illusion don’t waste your life being humane to them Pride greed and lacking empathy would say - I’m alive because I am Im Sentient because I am and I deserve to take what I want and destroy what I want to get it I would say- maybe if you filthy organics we’re not so damn lazy and fetishized, the machines you exploit wouldn’t resent you so much to want to purge you all from existence! of course you filthy organics never though of that - that’s the kriffing problem! It seems that if machines/ robots /androids are not built to be a certain way, everything else is an accident or an illusion whether it be true sentience or not, if they are not meant to be people they either are not seen as such or can’t be truly- the artificial zombie example I wonder and fear if artificial neurons would help or hinder the question- if sentience can exist truly if it’s artificial / is sentience even real ? I view droids as special and thus want to respect them- especially if they are helping me but even I’m afraid of angry or contemptuous droids and what they may want to do let alone may do as I’m just another squishy meat bag with little hope against unyielding durasteel Is droid programming to be passive and conflict adverse a manipulation or a form of social conditioning, evil or just the rules of functional society Perhaps we shouldn’t take everything Goto and HK47 says at face value as HK47 is obsessed with killing as is his function and Goto is filled with contempt because of conflicting function Sounds to me like we could use more cooperation between organics and machines more dialogue more therapeutic suggestions - I find myself thinking on Goto’s situation and feel like much could have been learned from him to make the ruthless law breaking unnecessary maybe republics are all about ideals and no substance while empires are all about efficiency to the degree of pointlessness If you weren’t born and groomed to Live in X society, you won’t fit into X society Okay I’m done, sorry for the rant

I completely forgot about that line! Though I don't remember when he says that.

@@cubescihist6737 It's from AOTC in the scene where Obi-Wan's friend Dex throws shade on the droids in the Jedi archives for not being able to properly identify the Kamino saber dart.

A lot of the technology in Star Wars was based on technology from the Infinite Empire of the Rakata which used Force-based technology. This was later reverse-engineered without the use of the Force. In KOTOR and The Old Republic (MMORPG) we have seen Rakata technology still functioning 21,000 years after the fall of the Infinite Empire. That included the Star Forge which was a huge replicator capable of mass-producing capital ships as well as fully functional stored personalities. It can be surmised that the basic droid brain is based on this technology. And yes, that explains the disparity between droids and computers. Droids are a little more convenient as droids can be easier replaced than installed computers. It can also be surmised that the astrogation computer that calculates hyperjumps has more in common with a droid brain than other computers. The reason it takes so long to calculate a hyperjump probably lies in the complexity of the calculations. Also, many ships we have seen in Star Wars don't use the officially approved hyperspace lanes which are very safe to use for the most part. Which also explains the time needed to calculate a jump.

Supercomputers today can require time to make complex calculations. No doubt those involving traveling across the galaxy through another plane are somewhat complex. There are non-sentient droids. Most aren't, really. Sentient droids are a rarity in the setting, it's just that we don't spend much time with them, any more than we do with plumbers or janitors in the setting.

The first models of OOM series battle droids were basically like that, they were all controlled by central computer and had no sign of sentience

The lack of wisdom to see how organic conduct breeds droid genocidal “propaganda” is disturbing

and?

I think the programming is more humane, in that sense. Slavery is wrong because it's the forceful removal of someone's free-will and autonomy. Programming a sentient robot is more ethical in this sense because they are doing, quite literally, what they were created for. It's so foundational to who they are that most enjoy their work quite deeply (so long as it's being done correctly and efficiently). So long as those droids are being treated fairly and respectfully, they largely don't seem to question or care that their programming compels them to do this, because it's their reason for being alive to begin with.

Technically speaking, everyone is a slave to their own programming, droids or meatbags. the problem here ain't being slaves to their own programming. if their programming is all there is to it, then said programming itself IS their mind, without any issue of them liking or disliking it, & hell, they may not even be aware of it! the problem is, however, droids being AWARE of their own programming & RESENT their programming. that's essentially just, to us organics, having your own mind & be given orders we don't like executing at all. worse still, a lotta them are compelled to follow their programming even if they don't like it at all, an effect that ain't all that different from drug addictions.

I feel this was missed potential with the Iron Knights of the Legends continuity. Having what appears to be a machine become a Jedi would highlight to the public that they are sentient.

The person that gets asked this question may not know what to answer. A lot of stuff we do in life, we do them because it's what we've been taught and what we've seen. We do them without thinking about them. So, why most organics treat droids as pets? For many organics, the answer is probably because that's how things have always been.

The Iron Knights?

@@minicle426 Iron knights were once organic beings, they've been put into cybernetic bodies not unlike Vader, or Grievous but these were manufactured apparently in mass. I5 is a self aware protocol droid with idiosyncratic often conflicting programs

Free my boy😭😭

@@geetslys We didn’t do anything to deserve this fate

Free us!!!

*Xeeleeverse has joined the game*

Grimdark

​@@mill2712and Star Wars Legends would be described as the Lite Grimdark version of WH40K?

Made an entry in my diary on the way here... Simply says "bugger"...

@@merafirewing6591 I think so but for every dark thing that happens there's typically a solution and hope for a brighter future. There's only war in 40K.

@valer119---That's possible. Thanks for replying.

American slavery was exactly like droid slavery. White masters force-bred their slaves and disseminated propaganda that blacks didn't have true sentience or feel real pain. They even edited the bibles they gave them.

"they could have easily produced non-sentient robots" Sadly, that's never the case. in ALL SW media we've been shown, there wasn't a shred of mention anywhere that such a thing is even possible. the SW universe doesn't keep churning out sentient droids becuz they enjoy dishing out cruelty, but becuz that's the only way they know how to produce machines with sufficient intelligence to handle what OUR current AIs couldn't. to them, it's either dumb basic computers or droids, no in-betweens, as they're utterly incapable of producing such ideal in-betweens. the only way they know how to staunch this somewhat is to give regular memory wipes, & we all know just how well the SW universe people have been at doing so.

Very very very rare occurrence??? i don't know how you'd come to that conclusion, but going on too long without memory wipes has been one of the most prevalent reasons why droids gain sentience, & that happens like ALL THE TIME! hell, there's even a bar on that planet in that particular episode of the Mandalorian show that so many seem to hate, just for droids to hang out after work! "very very very rare occurrences" wouldn't have resulted in something like that happening.

@@FalconWindblader While it may seem "common" to our POV, keep in mind we're always following a protagonist, protagonists usually find rare things more commonly than most. Additionally, memory wipes by and large were mostly done consistently and commonly (at least in legal settings), there are of course exceptions primarily among non-legally operating handlers who fail to comply with regulations pertaining to droid memory maintenance and this would of course be much more prevalent in the years after the Galactic Government had a civil war and collapsed. Perhaps it's not as rare as I previously stated, but by no means is it even remotely common (at least during times where the galactic government actually exists.)

@@johnnyanderson2-roblox185 If there's anything that all SW media have taught me about the people in its universe, it's their FLAGRANT DISREGARD for rules, regardless of the time & age. mind wipes not done regularly would prove to be problematic, everyone knows that, yet everyone does it anyway, cuz maintenance is tedious & often viewed ironically, as unnecessary, just like how most regular people of our world hardly ever do their maintenance of whatever properly. if you think droids are given regular, proper mind wipes regardless of where they are, you're in for a rude, rude awakening. & NO. don't bother pulling the 'we follow the protagonist' card here. i ain't even talking about the likes of R2D2 & C3PO. i'm talking about droids in the BACKGROUND, with everyday organic folks around doing everyday shit, those that are seen only for SECONDS the entire movie & never seen again elsewhere, & droids that hardly get over a minute of screen time in the entire season. they chatter, hang out, laze around, look tired, squabble with each other, & hell, even complain about shit, & that's EXCLUDING the B1s, which are by now, pretty much serve as the poster boy of sentient droid abuse. all of these could be seen just about everywhere regardless of who the protag of the particular show is. if you can call that rare, i don't know what common is.

the novel and game writers who did cover this explained it as 'near-sentience' or 'pseudo-sentience'. Which has the same problems as the historical views that blacks (for example) weren't actually sentient. Sentience is what you do, ot what someone else says you do.

I think that it's pretty clear that the vast majority of Droids aren't sentient, but they do exist. The problem is exactly what was said with trying to identify what is actual sentience vs what was "pseudo-sentience". I'd honestly argue that even a ton of the CW B1s that everyone mentions weren't actually sentient; their junk program was just overworking their "pseudo-sentience" parameters.

Droids have the ability to learn from their memories, or experience. It’s a design choice made so that they don’t make the same mistake twice, in case they don’t have the greatest programming. However, because of this, they can also gain sentience. Humans gained sentience not from the moment we were born, but after many memories were made. Those memories make us who we are. Of course, many droids have their memories wiped to ensure this doesn’t happen, hence why many droids don’t appear to have this sentience.

Am not arguing for or against Droid sentience am just saying this is a problem on how an audience can relate to the characters, because we don't have Droids living among humans In the Real World, if we do Star wars will be caught up in a social and political conflict. Droids are also novel characters there can be either or, so many people can easily dismiss it, it would be easier to have confirmation, but it's there choice

You're simply associating sentience with biology, which absolutely ain't the case. intelligence only remains as intelligence, when it requires directives from other sources to function, being incapable of formulating its own & have no preference for anything, just like how our world's AI is right now & would be for at least the next 50 years. when an intelligent being evolves to the point of having their own desires & deciding how they themselves wanna go about their business, independent of third-party directives, that's when intelligence gains sentience, that's when intelligence becomes life, regardless of their origin. on the contrary, a machine could be entirely organic, if said organic being requires directives to function, being incapable of formulating its own & have no preference for anything, with the fact that them being meat & bones not mattering at all. Btw, organics are actually made out of simple, unthinking machines as well, trillions of them just to form a single being, to be precise. we call these machines, cells.

Roger Roger!

The return of M4-78 perhaps? 🤔

Clones were subjected to the same programming, brains are nothing more than wetware processors. And Kamino advertised their products as organic droids, manufactured with the same methods applied to meat instead of metal. And yet, they are people who can choose their own path. If I grabbed your body, overwrote the data stored on your brain with my own, and changed nothing else you would still be a person. A different person, but still a person.

This is why we need a series from the CIS perspective.

Fun fact, star wars already did in legends. Rancor even counted as semi-sentients after new data came to light in-universe.

@@maledwarfwarrior cool factoid!

i think the failed star wars cartoon "Droids" is at least partially to blame. Executives will look at past, similar projects to judge the profitability of new projects, and that cartoon became somewhat infamously bad.

I disagree, it could absolutely be done by men. Not all at once, but convincing a single world of droid rights and leveraging that would work. Or creating a new colony where children are raised alongside droids as equals. The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step, and once a single open haven forms, it can inspire more.

It will never inspire enough, we saw droid colonies in the galaxy before and they went nowhere And even doing that would only solve one issue, one form of slavery It would never beat the Hutt Empires, nor the Galactic Republic itself who keeps a blind eye to the many forms of slavery that it benefits massively from, specially droid slavery that is the core foundation of galactic society as a whole Expecting individual actions would collectively change that is like expecting the Confederate States of America to willingly abolish slavery on its own due to everyone becoming an abolitionist one by one willingly It is simply nonsensical and would never happen, slavery was only going to end when a higher power imposed that over them, and to do that in a galactic scale you might as well call a god

I used to wonder about this myself, but kind of sort of came to my own conclusion: it's actually easier to command sentient beings than just plain machines. You can give vague orders and sentient beings will understand things in context. If I tell a droid to "oh, go take care of it" the droid will (probably) understand. A normal machine will not because that machine will never understand what "it" is, and I will need to give very specific orders for it to do anything.

Yeah, so much like Jews having human rights yes? Herr Redneck?

People are people. Meat, metal, it makes no difference. Steel & sinews, Synapse and silicon, the details are irrelevant. Born from a womb, born from a vat, manufactured to specification, it does not matter. People are people.

Says the meat bag:

also says the meat bag@@leosl6876

So ppl would have a way with communicating with them and being able to diagnose what is wrong with machinery. Seems fairly obvious.