Hi. I think the problem there is that the crossover frequency from the woofers to the mid drivers is too high for that. Although I've not looked I reckon it'll be somewhere between 500 -800hz meaning that the woofers will be effectively playing some of the vocal range and their locations will be very easy to identify.

My thought precisely. Form follows function. The FR30 (and all the others) are built to sort of fit into a living room. In a dedicated sound room I'd have a small open baffle handle 100 to 30kHz and the best bass boxes you can build placed around the room where bass is best. Likely have the bass boxes driven by class D and the fullish range by a really good tube amp.

You asked my question better than I did 😊. The Idea is that going sub low with your main speakers is pointless.

@@vosenfaber8631 "The Idea is that going sub low with your main speakers is pointless." That depends on your room. My room is too small to include a sub-woofer. I have nowhere to place it. So I depend on my main speakers for 100% of the bass. If my room was larger, then subs would be ideal.

Without walls line array of woofers would get in phase. Unfortunately, room acoustics don't work that way. I get more phase coherence with two subs or by cutting in half the tower speakers.

@@clickbeetle2720 It doesn't matter if low frequencies have been recorded in stereo or mono. One sub creates an asymmetry in pressures that I can feel and measure even if I can't localize it. That's how room acoustics mess with sound.

@@clickbeetle2720 . Tracks with bass? (most consider these as sub-bass, but it's not) Listen to these bands. Lettuce, The Budos Band, Ikebe Shakedown, Funky Destination, Electro Delux, Polyrhythmics, Cissy Street, Cory Wong, Galactic, Papa Grows Funk, Down to the Bone, Black Mantra.............................. That should get you STARTED! Acid Jazz, Funk & Brass 🔈🔉🔊

@@clickbeetle2720 . Well these bands don't seem to compress the low end of human powered instruments whether they be drums, strings or a Tuba in their recording. These are mostly physically large multi-instrument bands with NO vocalists. It's the instruments who are stars. There are no synthesized instruments here. Not only is the bass guitar sounstaged traditionally panned left and mid-field but the texture of thumb to E note string can be distinguished. Try a few songs quick & if it's good than it won't be work. It'll be pleasure. One sub or two? If someone is hearing music out of one sub or any amount of subs then it should be acknowledged a stereo image & soundstage exists and should be treated as such by incorporating two subs in the same manner as the pair of main stereo loudspeakers. If your listening to synthetic bass beats then none of it matters anyway. There is no tone or texture to be heard at all. Acid Jazz, Funk & Brass 🔈🔉🔊

That's what I found to work best in my room too. I've always wondered about the benefits of coupling the sub to the tower in terms of distance, i.e., I noticed that my soundstage was deeper and fuller with the speakers closer to the subs, which had been positioned for best bass presentation (consistent volume across the bass frequencies--actually, Chris B's acoustic bass from PS Audio's Hi-Fi book!). When I had pulled the speakers a bit farther out from the front wall and farther away from the subs, I didn't get a better overall sound; it was thinner in the middle, with a flatter soundstage. When I moved them closer to the subs, but still 2.5' off the front wall, the system bloomed. So, I've always wondered if coupling those 8" subs to the tower with dual 5.25" woofers was why.

My 8 inch sub is off the floor and to the side (not behind). I have the "close your eyes" and "get lost" audio system that I almost can't believe how wonderfully immersive and enjoyable it is. No one knows there is a sub in the room. Maybe I am fortunate to have stumbled upon my system's components. KZfaq has been a tremendous source of expert advice.

We can agree to disagree

If you don’t have bass traps and haven’t found the optimal position for the speakers. Else you’re just compensating and the transition Paul is referring to will still be lacking.

Dipole speakers work great in smaller rooms. They certainly don't have to be full range, and it's usually better they're not. Always fill the very bottom with great subs.

Agree

depends on if you have dsp, with passive speakers and active subwoofer as limitations then maybe our statement works. you really have to define your terms to make sense and comment useful information. not an easy thing to to in text on a KZfaq comment section.

I have a single REL T-5X matched to a pair of McIntosh XR50 speakers that complement each other very well as the speakers are almost flat to 40htz, and I have the sub set at about 60htz. They are powered b6 a McIntosh MA-252, and the soundstage and details are amazing.

To each their own

Today this doesn't have to be a big problem as it was, with room correction software, or a miniDSP that has a function as an EQ. This was a bigger problem before. Home cinema today is based on "syncing" the sound and correcting the frequensis by help of room correction like Dirac, ARC, RoomPerfect or Audyssey. But still, as you mentioned, you can not just buy a pair of bookshelf speakers and a subwoofer and think you will have great sound. Placement of speakers is the essential part, but also a bit of room treatment. Room correction can not perform miracles, but they can improve sound.

. Quality drivers can be flat & smooth within their bandwidth. Acid Jazz, Funk & Brass 🔈🔉🔊

You'll need two or more subs in any configuration

There's no stereo imaging that low in the frequency, if subwoofers are integrated too high then they could interfere. One listening position in the room could get away with one subwoofer if placed well in the room (in some rooms it might be all that's needed), it's the rooms physical dimensions vs listening position that matters (so 2-4 subwoofers might be needed to even out the majority of a room).

To bad, the lower end is mixt in mono

Maybe you can try an extra sub in the garage for better stereo sound? 😂

IMHO bass traps in a room are more important than 2 or more subs....what good is bass if you can't turn up the volume without boominess. Bass traps changed my life!

. "Small" & "standmount" are 2 irrelevant terms here. I suggest you redefine to non-full range speakers. For just one example, the floorstanding Klipsch Heresy with a 12" inch woofer is notoriously lacking in very low frequency response. The Heresy is neither small nor standmount. Secondly, there must be consideration given to a crossover's slope. These hard cut-offs at 60 or 80 hertz are very near arbitrary and don't consider the actual main speaker's low frequency curve or specifically what's missing to get to flat. Most of the info given are rules of thumb & can be misleading as is the case HERE. And last, remember that if a sub-woofer can be heard, then there is stereo imaging & soundstage there. Meaning the subwoofer is making up for the missing audible bass in a full range speaker. Consequently, a PAIR of sub-woofers would be warranted and they should be positioned in place of the stands of a standmount loudspeaker. Acid Jazz, Funk & Brass 🔈🔉🔊

That’s cool 👍

@@clickbeetle2720 I'm aware of the AB3A, but I also have other speakers that I play with. I'm not expecting audio nirvana, just better. A pessimist is rarely disappointed.

Your little 10 sub isn’t producing the bass that the $30k speakers in the video can produce without a sub. We aren’t talking about the same things. He’s talking about matching a very high end pair of subs to very high end speakers.

@Thom.whatever. Re: PS Audio comment. You don't understand anything, and strike me as one of those audio braggarts who like to contradict people so they don't feel dumb. Perhaps you feel that way from giving away a fortune over...audio equipment! Equipment that doesn't have to cost 1/5 that much. And there's equipment that does the same thing for that much less My " little "10 inch subwoofer, as you call it, is a very high quality unit and it's smaller driver size and lower mass enables it to have transient speed, delicacy and definition, which is rarely, ( if ever) encountered in more massive sized drivers. A little Porsche can start and stop a lot quicker than a Mach truck. My sub's large cabinet enables it to have much deeper bass than usual for a ten inch, and I've heard even 8 inch woofers that go surprisingly deep. Deeper than your room will go. Sounds like you're showing off and are looking for an argument. You picked the wrong to try and make feel insecure about his system. I have by far the best sound I have ever heard Bass wavelengths below 30 hertz are 50 feet long. Do you have a room that's 50 feet long to let out that low a note? I'd guess not. My sub has bass as deep as a 28 foot room will allow. You may think you're hearing bass into the 20 some hertz region; but acoustic experts will tell you that it is delusionary, and is a sheer impossibility if you room is not 50 feet long.

. Sidesup quote "...a 10 inch sub and it lacks nothing that I can hear", Lol, that's exactly the point friend. One can't miss what one can't hear. Acid Jazz, Funk & Brass 🔈🔉🔊

I've heard you mindless ones with your bass boom boom, driving past with no respect for others. Maybe you think you have good bass because it has a bunch of phony ass thumping. Guess what my bass sounds like? You'll never guess. My bass sounds like a musical instrument! Nothing more & nothing less. It is accurate, like my other frequencies. Like I wouldn't be able to buy a bigger woofer if I wanted to. I'm impressed with people who collect Italian sports cars, not audio braggarts who have 15 inch woofers. I had 15 inch woofer speakers when I was in my teens. My bass is tight, well defined and controlled, and like bass in real life, it only gets fat when the note goes down low enough. I have headphones where the bass goes down below 20 hertz; I'd know if I'm missing anything from hearing and comparing how the music sounds through those also. Also I know someone with old IMF Reference Standard speakers, where the bass goes down to 16 hertz, so your bad inference that I have nothing to compare that would let me hear what's missing isn't very smart at all. Bass wavelengths under 30 hertz are 50 to 60 feet long...Look it up... Do you have a room that is that big, that will even let out a note like that? Fat chance. You probably think your thumpy phony sonic sensationalized 55 hertz is 25 hertz So there's an infinite amount of things wrong with what you say. Nothing wrong with my comment. Only with you.

you are reading too much into his little video, it is a large topic that does not fit in a short video or can be explain in full in a comment.

@@sudd3660That is all true. It is also true that Paul has a warehouse full of full range speakers to sell. Two things can be true at the same time.

In our opinion. Not pauls, but thats Great to.

The crossover point would be too high, the lower end might be good if it integrate better with the rooms dimensions and your listening position. Bass has a tendency to "bundle up" in certain areas, like corners in the room or sometimes in other rooms. Subbass region is about physical dimensions of the room and the wave length, higher frequency is about off axis response from each driver, and distance to the next driver that it's going to integrate with at the crossover point (ideal is said to be 1/4 of the wave length measured center to center on the drivers, but many end up using a slightly longer distance).

@@PSA78Thank you again. It makes more sense now. Even to me 😊

yes and on top of that is the active subwoofer that does adc to do dsp then dac again. i know simplicity sells but also people tweak their system with gear and placement so i would guess that many already are not having a simple system.

@@sudd3660 As I see it.. To have a DSP in the subwoofer is also rather stupid place to have it in the topology.🤔 It just subwoofer manufacturer that place a DSP there... Because they sell us that "speakerbox"..🤣 The right way to do it is to toss out the preamplifier if you use one.💖 There were your DSP as preamp should be. 👍 Now you can control where (Hz) and how (1, 2 3 or 4th order or linkwitz or Butterworth). We should let the mid woofer play down to and "mate" with the subwoofer..🤪 You see a DSP in a subwoofer can NOT do that when it is in the totally wrong place in the system.. It is somewhat like writing "Turbo" on the subwoofer cardboard box.. It just make them to sell more subwoofers.. And Mr Paul is acting as a seller for their speakers..🤣 The "truth" is maybe somewhere in between.🥰 Now when the DSP is replacing the preamplifier (and remember that if we do the below correctly then that will be the BEST preamplifier cost no object!)🤯 Now the DSP can make the SQ wise the best crossover between your bass and midrange. It could do the same between midrange and tweeter if you like in the future.🥳 You can calibrated your complete system AND your specific room acoustics!🤯 Not only that you could implement one or many house curves that support your individual hearing (see loudness curves) and subjective taste. And adjust for different albums mixes plus at what sound levels you listening to.🤯 Plus so much more SQ enhancement stuff that just almost only your creative mind can image.🤯 Even put your TT into that DSP preamp and do the AD conversion and fix EVERYTHING (crossover points, PEQ, your subjective preferences, recording mix, system color weakness, room correction and so on).💖 So even when you do AD and then DA conversion on the most inexpensive and worst measuring DSP that you can lay your hands on. You still will end up with better sound quality than NOT doing the AD and DA conversion!😉 When whatever that small degradation there MAY be will be negligible compared to all the other sound quality improvements you are getting everywhere! 😅 Don't worry about any possible degradation of sound quality degradations from the AD and DA conversion.🤔 And it is easy to see why a DSP as preamp is outperforming ANY old school passive preamplifier cost no object! 👍

@@AmazonasBiotop well said, i have the same thoughts on the matter. but i do not like fully active system, passive main speakers so that the hiss noise is gone is my preference. I have and recommend a preamp/dsp/volume control unit, then dac's or power amps as needed.

@@sudd3660 Great! 🤗 To be honest I don't like where the normal passive crossover is placed in the speakers. But I have unfortunately still a crossover in my 2 way and only utilize the DSP crossover between the midband woofers and the passive bass drivers (two OB 18" handing in the air of the floor boundary just for sound quality reasons. Trying to remove compromises.). So I do not cross over between the tweeter and the mid woofer. The current limiting factor is that I have only 4 channels out in my DSP and I need 6 channels to be able to accomplish that setup. I believe that a big reason why it is noisy hiss in the tweeter is the pairing to how quiet the power amplifier is. And the input sensitivity of the tweeter. 🤔 The higher the tweeter sensitivity is the quieter the power amp needs to be..🎶 But as I said I have not yet tried THAT configuration yet. 👍 There is so many projects. 🤪

@@AmazonasBiotop same here, 4 channel out, and mine are all digital. so i got the chance to try our power amps and plater amps like hypex 123, all make hiss noise in my house. at least i tried, now i just enjoy passive 2 way main speakers and subwoofers, mains have a passive crossover, it is fine for my use.

A good full-range speaker may still need a sub if there are bass peaks and nulls, which is often the case. Those issues do not just magically disappear with a full-range speaker.

@@craigaust3306 Yes, room acoustics might cause bass peaks and nulls. That can be dealt with to get good bass at your listening location by good speaker placement if you have a full range speaker. That's much better than accepting muddy imaging and a poor transition between bass, mid-base, and midrange caused by using a sub that's not specifically engineered to work at the spot you put it in your room with your specific speakers at their specific location.

avoid flat, but instead something that sound evenly loud to your ears. saying flat can mean so many things depending how you measure or hear. we need to be clear in the language we use.

It depends as there's drawbacks to everything when it comes to audio, you always trade one thing for another so it's about finding the best compromise. Intermodular distortion could be one in this example, if you play loud.

no one said a literal gap, it is more like you do not have the cone area from 50hz to 150hz to recreate real sounding audio. so either you cross the subwoofer up higher or have larger main speakers.

@@sudd3660 True, my audio sounds shit when i start to sing. 😉

of course there is exceptions to any rule, in more cases a subwoofer will do something.

buy good subwoofers and you wont need speakers.

Subwoofer has nothing to do with the speakers, it's about the room.

I like single source "point "8 inch back & front load horn full range ,why ?it is same as recording microphone "point "source ,it made pin point sound stage ,you will understanding what is "Stereo ＂