THE ISLE DEVS don’t “Pesky” this guy.... please..

The use of Captain Gutt's sea shanty alone has made me agree with the entire video

I personally think that the Isle's main problem with it's nesting and growth system, is that it's a leftover from another time, and is thus completely inadapted for the game as it is. You're basically spending HOURS in what could be called an "Interactive loading screen", and waiting for your character to load it's stats so you can finally start playing. For a trike or a giga(if you're brave enough to try and grow one of these victims) you have to wait 6 litteral hours to START PLAYING your dinosaur. That's no fun, but why is it like this? Simple : Nesting and growth, in The Isle, was implemented for the "Progression" game mode around 3 years ago. Since most of the playerbase doesn't remember this time (due to the old playerbase withdrawing from the game), I'll resume it quickly : Progression mode was a game mode which, as it's name suggest, made you "progress" through the playable's tier list. When you start on a server, you spawn as one of the bottom-tier animals (Velociraptor for carnivores, Orodromeus and Psittacosaurus for herbivores), and you start playing as an ADULT. Over time, or by eating speciel types of plants you accumulate "progression points" which allows you, when you have enough, to upgrade your dino into an adult version of the Tier above. Thus, you progress through the bottom tiers to the upper ones, Tier by Tier and If you die, you start all over at the bottom again. So, if you wanted to play a giga for example, you had to start as a velo, then upgrade into a herra, then into an allo and finally into a giga, which means that you had reliable ways to enjoy the game during your entire playthrough, as you spawn as an adult each time you jump a Tier. So, what did growth had to do with this back then? Simple, you could only start up as a juvenile version of said dino IF someone playing said dino invited you in his nest. This mecanic allowed one to jump several steps of the progression and spawn immediately as a higher Tier dino, at the expense of starting in a weak and vulnerable state, and thus really dependent of your parents. But, growing like this was shorter than reaching said dino through the progression tree, so many people usually tried it. It was an "option", not an obligation, to go this route, which was kinda "high-risk ; high-payoff" approach, but if it didn't work, you could still go the progression way and climb at the Tier you wanted normally. Then they removed Progression, implemented Survival yet they didn't change the growth mecanic. Growth times were adjusted over time of course, but what we have now is a feature built for a gameplay which doesn't even exist anymore, and thus has no more value. And THAT is the main problem with forcing people to start of as juveniles and growing for HOURS to just start playing their dino, not only is that incredibly boring and frustrating, but it's also lost all the purpose it had when it was implemented. Basically, this mecanic is now completely useless as it is

I think a lot of people are interpreting this video as "remove growth" when in reality the point is why growth is boring. A lot of comments are trying to imply that people just want to be lazy and automatically be adults and... no. Growth being more complex and requiring actual gameplay would make being an adult much more rewarding, and prevent apex overpopulation on the server as difficult survival means longer grow times are more risky and take actual work. I really don't know why "suffer for your apex" means sit bored for hours and hours in the community when it should mean that you actually put forth a respectable amount of effort to getting to that stage. Growth in Bermuda is more fun for me at least because there's environmental hazards with the storms/floods and also things you can do to increase your bias, but overall it still encourages sitting in a cave with the comfort system, just like TI encourages sitting still in a bush. TL;DR- Growth is a good IDEA and should be an actual challenge and actual gameplay, not afk simulator.

The immeasurable weakness of the juvis is what really irks me, yeah they shouldn't be strong per say, but many herbivores can keep pace with their herd even in a gallop moments after their born. Some baby animals are very poisonous or have extreme camouflage skills, and others still have unique abilities, like how some baby birds will eject their vomit or feces onto a predator, hell some babies are even better at certain things than the adults, like how hoatzin birds are relatively cumbersome, while the chick's are amazing swimmers and climbers. Any amount of these things would not only make the babies viable, but also actually enjoyable to be as while you wait to be an adult.

I think, despite all the issues with Evirma, the one thing it DID get right is making the juvies actually have some level of viability (even if right now it's difficult to see because there's only two dinos to choose from). Juveniles can actually hide because the maps have actual cover now unlike the stupid conifer forests we had before, they're both fast enough to be evasive even if they're still slower than adults, and they have ways of covering their scent (certain terrain types do not leave footprints and mud will conceal your footprints for a short time; could be longer). This allows the juvies to actually *do* something even if they don't really have anything to do at the moment. Once other dinosaurs get added, particularly smaller ones, juvie Utahs will be able to hunt down prey and actually be competent at it, and juvie tenonts will have things to defend against rather than just hide from.

I fully agree with all of your points here, having to wait several hours just to have a somewhat even playing field with other players is what prevents me from going back and playing either of these games (amongst other reasons). Great vid.

At first I liked BoB's endless growth, until I realized it meant no matter how much time I spent growing my dinosaur there'd always be some 'no lifer' with a much bigger dinosaur that slaughters me and I have no chance of escape or fighting back. At least with The Isle every adult rex is the same size with the same stats so I know what I'm getting into with it. But even then I still think the arbitrary wait times for growth are insane. No game should take 8 hours of waiting in real life to get to the good part, only to die and start over. It's not fun. I don't want growth gone completely (cause just having full grown dinosaurs with no risk creates like a death match server with no purpose) but I would like it where it feels my time and effort got me somewhere, rather than just losing it all and gaining nothing, even if the death wasn't my fault.

Time to sit back and watch the chaos unfold down here

This is a really interesting video with a fresh perspective on growth, thank you for making it! I feel like I should mention, that as beasts of Bermuda moves forwards, growth will become less important, as more of a passive effect rather than an active goal. This is a problem we have been aware of for a while, along with the players intense fear of death in what is supposed to be a pvp game. We intend to address both of these issues in the future.

I hate Growth. It feels like I’m waiting around for the best part, but it’s still fun to mess around as a baba. They need to make it take less long.

Someone had to say it

anyone remember when the isle had a point system for getting high-level dinos?

I have seen first hand how some people in BoB would be big adult predators and will go after anything they see, I clearly remember spawning as a mega and 2 big rexs where very close and they chased me relentlessy,at some point I was trying to escape them by runing between some rocks near water but a mossa got me, on another server there used to be 2 very large rexs tho they mostly left me alone since I was pretty much camping on the snow mountain as a scavenger mega,but I do remember a few times I came down from the snow they would be hunting other large rexs,acros and I think they killed an apato once,can't remember how one of them died but it did at some point.But yea giving the babys in these games something the adults can't do that lest them defend themselves or go to a spot that is safe from adults.

5:04, I agree, in the wild most baby Dino’s can start running as fast as their parents(at a certain stage and depending on what species). Sauropod hatchlings can move faster than their adult counter parts because they are smaller and lighter(same deal with rex and other species, and prey animals need to learn how to run fast so they aren’t easily predated but are still considered easier prey. Speeding up progress for hatchlings and juveniles would definitely help your issue, but then once you hit adulthood growth slows.

When I fully grew my Rex I stopped playing because you can't die if you don't play lmao

Growth would work seamlessly if the devs actually made Dinosaurs have different niches at different stages of it. Dondi expecting a Juvenile Tyrannosaurus to hunt a Triceratops, instead of giving it the proper speed and agility to chase down, let's say... I dunno, a Gallimimus is Idiotic. We have more than plenty of evidence of Osteogenic (I think I spelt that right) growth in Dinosaurs, and how especially Tyrannosaurus went from a skinny, gangly pursuit predator, to the nine ton bone Crusher. With the way growth works right now, with an ecosystem that favours carnivores that make groups of 7-8, generalistic, braindead Allos that come in swarms and afk grow, Growth cannot function properly.

8:00 So the mechanic turns the player into an overpowered invasive species?

While Saurian is a little bit different than some dino games in concept and it's development is pretty slow, I really like how they handle growth. Every section of development has it's own place in the environment, creating slightly different gameplay as you grow bigger and change your abilities. I feel like the reason we all even play The Isle at some point is just because it's the only decent multiplayer dino game there is right now. It's certainly the only reason I play it.

I enjoy growth on a game, but I completely agree with you AND I also think growth in the isle (IDK about BOB) is also poorly implemented because of how long it takes to grow to full adult. Sure may e implementing the things you mention that wouldn’t be as much of a problem, but for me, someone that wants to do other things and play other games throughout the day, it’s very unappealing to me that growth takes over 8 hours straight to go to full adult rex. Only to be killed in the 7th hour and start the process ALL OVER AGAIN! It’s just very frustrating and exhausting and is one of my main deterrents to play the isle more.

The trackways that show that juvenile sauropods could supposedly run on their hind legs were preserved in very bad sediment which could be the reason why the forefeet didn't preserve.

Totally agree. Isle Babies should have tiny hit boxes and offer very little reward to larger creatures. They should have exceptionally higher ai spawn rates, the ability to burrow, or have no footprints visible to adults. Sub adults they got right, making them faster than thier fullgrown counterparts. I'd also like to see a spawn system that automatically pairs you with an adult for protection with friendly fire disabled. You could then leave the group, but only after 3 minutes. This guarantees some saftey on spawn.

Saurian actually gets the growth stage idea quite well since the Dakotaraptor juvenile can climb and glide extremely well!

I agree with the points you have made. Growing in the Isle is a chore, it’s boring, stressful, and at times feels unfair. I always thought that it was weird how juveniles were just much weaker versions of the adults that had nothing going for them. The fact that you also have to worry about anything slightly larger than you also sucks. Instead of exploring the map or doing anything, you end up staying in one spot for about 2-3 hours before leaving because you are at a size were you can either fight back or run. However, if you die, it’s back to square one. I like playing the Isle but gosh growing is just a pain. Especially if you are in a group with older individuals. You end up wasting stam just trying to keep up and that issue still exists in Evirma. What makes it worse though is that the Isle is just a Dinosaur death match game where it’s mostly people just looking for a fight. I enjoy the Isle a lot and I truly hope it continues to grow, but they have to add something to juveniles to make them better at surviving.

Ah yes I love hiding in bushes being useless for like 4 hours, only to get randomly spotted by 4 dudes who decided to pick something with sharp teeth and having it all be for nothing. Growth amirite? Yeah fuck growth.

Nothing like spending 5 hours trying to grow a carno just to have a rex ambush me in an instant and ruin all of my progress.

Growth sucks because it typically offers nothing when you get larger, other than the fact you get larger, and essentially punishes you when you die by starting you out as a baby again, forcing you to spend hours growing again. A way to fix this might be that instead of forcing you to start over every time you die, perhaps instead, the game could simply reduce your growth meter/points every time you perish. Maybe make it so that if you are nested in, you grow 2x as fast. Anything to reduce the grind folks

I rly hope they rework all the juveniles and subs, sub rex and juvie rex should be super light it very fast and then begin to slow down and have massive growth spurts to adulthood, juvie Utah should be able to climb trees but be slower, giga juvies should be super powerful but slow, allos should be average as juveniles and the smaller juvies should have silent footsteps or something.

Just bought The Isle during the Steam sale. Waiting for growth is definitely my least favorite thing in the game so far. Waiting for your dino to grow makes sense, and it does give you that sense of earning your big giga, but it's just REALLY boring getting there. The biggest thing that I'm looking forward to is the eventual implementation of humans and flying creatures. As a flying creature, if I'm bored, I can fly around, explore the huge map, and watch other dinos from a safe distance. As a human, hunting for dinos with guns and maybe basebuilding would be cool. But those things may be years from now though.

I had a lot of these ideas in the back of my head for a while, thanks for bringing this up xD

I'll just say I agree And I actually like more BoB than The Isle, I have already lost my hope on The Isle xd

I agree. I really hope that atleast parents can be given through spawning/nesting mechanics, or atleast AI. Also, it confuses me why the juveniles aren't faster than the adults in the isle. That's just common in nature today, my family raises birds and the babies are always so much more speedy and agile than the adults.

5:00 a lot of people don't know this, but when you're a juvenile carnivore in the Isle you can 2 call a AI and they will run up to you, making it a lot easier to kill them. This does not work when you're an adult.

Remember 3 hour growth times for apexes? Pepperidge Farms remembers.

As someone who played the Isle for alot I do agree and disagree with some points. Yes I completely agree with the fact that smaller dinosaurs need to be faster to avoid predators, since they are always going to be weaker then them. But when you get down to the bare bones, if you die as a baby it's quite your fault. And that's why I like it. It's a challenge to grow in a world that can kill you quickly, and it's rewarding to grow a big dinosaur and become higher in the pecking order since you started so small. So in that aspect I like growth, but then again it's very annoying how slow babies are compared to their competition

Big problem with growth is people act like people, not animals.

4:51 Good reason to give utahraptor feathers

I feel if they made baby dinosaurs faster than adults they would have a chance to get away from danger since they don't have high damage.

From where is the sea fluete music at the beginning?

I know this vid is 4 months old, but kudos to you for speaking my mind through a video and even pointing out that when these logical arguments are brought up, people "poopoo" them because "lul, you're not a dev therefor you can't know what you're talking about like the devs can" Because why would a gamer be any good at understanding how a game works vs a bunch of artists who make the game?

Not to mention big carnivores eventually have to mixpack with birds, herbis etc (on BoB) to stay relevant on a smallish server with a small map

how would you do a time based growth system?

do you think a leveling system would be better? i am trying to think of better ways to implement growth and talent changes that arent based on idling. one of the ideas i had was to make it based on combat points, earned from hunting and defending. that way, you would need to play the game to grow rather than idle.

how growth should work; as you grow up, you have dynamic stats. lemme explain. t rex in the isle kinda does this; juvi rex is fast, sub rex is a pursuit predator, then adult is slow and tanky. taking up different niches would be an interesting concept. it' like progrression- OH WAIT! Progression HAD you start as small, nimble creature, then you become a powerful giant that doesn't have to eat constantly or practically waterboard itself to live.

Pot had the worst growth in any dinosaur game ever 💀

thank god, i hate when youtubers say "that will be a topic for another video" and then NEVER DO A VIDEO ON IT. triggers me

The isle is supposed to be "realistic" in some terms but believe me... It's better than having basically only sandbox servers in the game... If there wasn't grow then everyone would be adult Rex in the game lmao. Grow makes the game better

Scanova: *GROWTH SUCKS* 0:29: TheGamingBeaver Footage Me: *oh yeah.. Its all coming together*

Bro, playing as a juvie rex Is the best thing ever-

In saurian growth is fun xD

8:50 With the talent tree. If someone's goal is to grow as large as possible and they need the food so they keep killing, they'll probably take as much damage they can get from the tree. That makes it even more difficult to kill them.

When you scroll down its just paragraphs..

Remember when he played the isle...

I saw this video in my recommended a few times and I was... skeptic. But you tackled this pretty well, and I agree, for the most part. I can't really speak on BoB, as I haven't played it. Who knows how PoT will handle growth (I'm hopefully though because so far they're handling the entire game brilliantly). But TI is something I know well. It never made sense to me to have dinos such as dryo, maia and galli, who's survival strategy is speed (for the most part, dryos do have burrows too) to be so limited as juvenilles. I love playing maia and galli but I've always despised growing them due to how slow you are. Dryo only gets a break because it takes like 15 minutes to get to adult. It just doesn't make sense! I can't think of any irl animal who's survival strategy is "run" that is incredibly slow as a baby. And I think things like dibbles and mid-tier carnivores could do with boosting too. If they're not strong, they at least need to be fast, or agile in some way. I've always had an issue with how TI balances these aspects (poor para). The only exception to me is apexes. IMO it should be a challenge to grow them. It shouldn't be un-fun, but it should be more difficult than any other dinosaur. Because if you do make it to adulthood, you have one of the strongest dinos in the game. But the issue is apexes tend to attract newbies who are like "wow rex strong im gonna play rex and eat everyone!!" and of course then whinge then they get eaten 20 minutes in. Apexes should require much more smarts to grow than other dinos. All in all I liked this video though. I'm getting pretty invested in PoT so I'm interested to see how they'll tackle growth. Hopefully they do it better than our two current leaders in dinosaur survival.

I loved that continental drift transition XD

Where did you read the baby sauropods running? I had never heard about it and seems so cool.

Even if I like sandbox over survival, I can understand the importance of growth in order to balance the game. The issues that bugger me the most are how limited your actions are (this applies to all games in which you grow a creature from zero to hero; all you do is eat, drink and very rarely run away from or kill someone. Although most of the time is spent waiting) and how in The Isle each and every single creature spawns identically: from the fast and nimble Gallimimus that is extremely adaptive to the slow and sluggish Suchomimus who depends on water.

Im curious to know your opinion on the talked about mechanics coming in The Isle with growth. Things like specific diets and the fact that moving around and meeting 'goals' can make you grow faster verse the AFK growing we have now. I also agree with some other comments here regarding the new map build and graphic tweaks make hiding more viable now.

I honestly thought you were gonna start singing right after u said "allow me to explain" 😅

While I do agree that growth can be time consuming. Juvies are sometimes impossible to find, because with good camouflage they can sit in bushes and literally be walked by. I mean what else do you want them to do? Shoot lasers and fly? Most dinosaurs don’t even take that long to grow, rexes, gigas do take 6 hours, but Utah’s take 1 hour so if you don’t want to wait that long and still have fun, just play as a smaller hunter, like suchomimus

God that old Bob rex image in the thumbnail. It was me, Jynn, and Cyke before rex was public... ANYWAYS agreed to an extent

Whats your opinion on Evrima's newly announced perk system which awards players for growth?

Good thing they improved growth in bob roughly two years later.

Thanks for helping me with ideas for my game

Nice editing, you seem to put work in that keep it going

Path of Titans death won’t be permanent! Yay

i think it would be cool if the environment would offer some tiny caves and holes as a safe spot for tiny dinos. To have a possibility to survive bigger predators in some way and have at least a chance. You even cant stay in there forever because of food and water. But how nice would it be as a baby utah so steal some meat and carry it into a tiny cave :D

I can say that, this whole growth system, has kind of had me on the ropes of really deciding whether this game is great or not. The Devs are working their hardest to give us these little in-between objectives of Dinosaurs like self care and other little goodies that reward dinosaurs with evolution points. So if that's the case I feel like they would have the change the A.I in a way to make them behave but also play towards these certain objectives. This players aren't just killing each other to meet a daily quota and everyone can still have a chance to grow up their dinosaur without the fear of being hunted by one 3 times it's size or the boredom of sitting in a bush for about 30-45 minutes and then coming out to eat and drink then going back and sitting in that bush. I've always been a traveller in the Isle, whether I was young or a full adult. I never could stay in one spot or popular spots. Maybe they should add something that rewards Dinosaurs for staying in their biomes or for travelling and so overing new locations, either way the Isle was not meant to be a Simulator, that goes to Beasts of Bermuda or the Beasts of 956, the Isle is a Dinosaur based Survival/combat game. So it shouldn't have to worry about realistic features and what now just as the system feels good, plays good, and is fair.

Growth killed my enthusiasm to play the Isle. I grew a rex and survived for several months on a high populated server (low traffic pop was like 70 players). Near the end I just refused to play unless I had someone with me out of fear of having to regrow a rex again. No growth should take more than 2-3 hours at max 8 hours for a rex is just insane.

I do see your point. Balance does go out the window and yes there is some luck involved in growth but it also depends on how you play. Isle wise, Ik lots of juvis die because they call too much or don't stick to the trees. If you stay quiet and pay attention to your surroundings you usually grow just fine. On packed servers it's tricky but can be done. Plus if you want to play the isle but avoid people, going onto an empty server to just enjoy the scenery and grow can be nice. Once I reach adult I usually log off anyway since there's nothing else to do on an empty server. This way at least unpopular servers can get some players. Developer side wise, including growth means the players HAVE to be on a certain amount of time to get what they want. It's a clever way to keep people on longer.

Everybody gangsta until a giant Velociraptor comes running ag you

growth can be very fun if devs want to do it here is a good idea: quests that make your dinosaurs happy....for example a triceratops want to rub it's horns on trees feathered dinosaurs preen their feathers or t rex want to take a bath in mud and that would give you about +0.1 growth depending on how rare it is to randomly get it and how hard it is to do a quest for example if a hadrosaur quest is to meet another of your species and friendly call them that would give +0.5 growth but it's also rare to get a quest like that because of getting so good reward this is balance between being bored and losing control of big dinosaurs like t rex or shant and just like you mentioned some special things for babies being able to do for example t rex being faster when young and more (they are accurate too)

Okay as long as you don't say we should do progression again we dont got a problem

i love how you put the movie refrences xD

it take 4 hours to grow something decent,,,,, but it takes 4 seconds to lose it...... that is the worst problem specially if humans will arrive to the game with guns and rocket launchers

Also don't forget how that impacts the way people respond to the constant killing: In the server Official 2 on BoB there is currently 97 people online. There is a herbivore group with 22 people. All of them are huddled up in the edge of the map on an island fortress. That's a full quarter of the server basically detracting from possible game play, and it's all because BoB incentivizes constant killing. This likewise makes being a carnivore boring as crap because hey, almost all of your prey is unreachable! BoB and Isle are great ideas but horribly executed. Ultimately it's going to be the toxic players that kill it because every time the discussion about limiting KOS comes up in public chat people revolt against the notion. So there you have it: there's nothing to do and it's all because the basic game play mechanics incentivize wanton murder and too many players fail to see how this is a problem. Anyone know of any similar games that avoid this problem?

honestly, I agree that juvenile should have something that helps them survive on them own maybe small raptors would be able to climb up trees or give the 4 calls some kind of use with bigger dinosaurs of you're species know you're locations so they can defend you for the herbivores and I also agree with everything you said about BOB

I think babies should have a panic speed that heavy burns stamina

Really good point good job 👏

I like it and they will change it so you will get a bonus when you kill something special and run around on The Isle

Ironically enough, the way to solve dinosaurs aging and getting to big is if they died of old age

*sandbox enters the chat*

yet another reason why we deserve to have progression back.

Isn't the recode for the game changing the way growth works? Atleast a bit?

I agree with the juveniles needing a boost, perhaps this could be discussed into the Isle since Evrima is new and everything. Would be a nice thing to add

What is this film called 4:54 ?

While I don't feel super strongly about it, I do agree with you. I've been playing animal simulators and having moments where I'd be kind of hoping that my baby would at least be able to outrun an adult. It... always ended up not being true. ^^; Baby animal defenses should really be a thing!

would love to see your opinions on Bob actually nerfing 1.2+ dinos (damage no longer continuing to scale past that)

Actually watching this while growing in a bush :D

It makes a powerful desire to live and is almost like death irl, if you die you lose everything but they do need to figure that out you should only be able to grow if there is a nest for you to spawn in otherwise it's terrible

Ok out of the idea you proposed the competent juvy is the one i liked the most : Velociraptor , dryo and other small dino could be able to climb or really hide by standing still in a bush , and offering a little reward as an exchange for being rare since they would stay like that for a short period , Triceratops or anchy should be able to dig or have some form of armor , maybe a damage resistence maybe some cheratinus spike that can damage and inflict bleed with each bite , And besides being nible , they are very low to the ground and are very light they should be able to turn while running almost on the spot , and like ever chased a toddler ? They can go for hours give them stamina , That allows them to not offer such a free kill Large predators should by default be very fast when they are young , and be somewhat optimized to hunt other baby dinosaur/very small dino , by doing so you have to practice on inexperienced targets Sauropods should be able to run on two legs and have a ton of stamina when they do so , like i mean , let them have galli levels of stamina with peraps being fast enough to avoid most predators closing in just by walking , it should be hard to survive as a sauropods since fighting won't be an option , but flight will be a viable plan ...

3:00 that's the point of growth you have to hide in fear from anything larger until you mature, and it adds different experiences with creatures that you will out grow. Its not only about the "work" you put in and the outcome. the skill in it his learning to hide, be quiet and when to take risks like getting resources and traveling that could cost you your life and progress. you have a lot of good points and when it comes down to it, its just our different opinions on growth and there's nothing wrong with disagreeing. This is about The Isle Legacy and its future with Evrima because theres going to be a whole world of small playables competing with each other and juvies of different large species.

I totally agree with this. I think growth is only actually fun when you're roleplaying

I grow gigas solo in The Isle on high pop servers. I find it quite fun. You always have to watch your back. Once you hit adult it's a completely different game. I actually can't wait for the elder system as I love constant progression.

maybe its just me, but I like the journey of growing generally more than being full grown

So if i understood what you were saying juvies, should have stats of adult while being the juvi size to be viable???🤨 And if you hate growth so much, there is sandbox

Part 2?

Yes it’s so irritating when you spend 5 hours growing a rex and die to cannibals

0:51 what game???

I feel like this needed to be said honestly. I know the Isle has plans for a better more rewarding growth system but the problems of growth are still present. Alot of these games suffer from the issue of huge power gaps due to growth stat scaling. Though BoB has a official server with a growth cap of 1.2 now which is cool but let's be real, a bulk of the community is on community owned servers who will likely never be able to make this growth cap change due to community outcry. Something definitely needs to be done for babies to be more viable and less free lunchboxes.