Imagine thinking that Churning is morally wrong while a Bank turns around and charges you 29.99% APR and fees every month

When churning credit cards, there is no margarine for error. People should know butter.

This dude really said that it is morally wrong to get something for free from the bank. This needs to be moved to the comedy section. This dude right here

I think of churning as similar to counting cards in blackjack. There's nothing illegal or immoral about it, you're just playing the game skillfully. The casino (or the bank in the case of credit cards) can still choose to ban you though, so do it at your own risk.

I churn kind of. Except I never close the cards. I just downgrade to a no annual fee card and keep the account age.

The true churner is a KZfaqr who can churn out a 10+ min with over 7k views without having to do any research or post production editing. Teach me your ways Shifu!

nobody: shifu: did i mention i went to grand cayman?

"Morally wrong" to beat the system? Don't think so

The banks didn’t care about the spirit of the rules when they bet against their own mortgages in the financial crisis. The banks won’t help me out if I need money so I don’t bat an eye when churning.

Yeah nah.. Credit card companies charge ridiculously high interest rates. They're entire goal is to get you into a cycle where you're paying massive interests & are unable to pay your balance in full. No Sympathy for the big banks, sorry not sorry. Kudos to your morals though lol.

What's wrong with churning? Banks churn on the public 24/7 high interest rates, fees,penalties, etc

Moral arguments don't really hold up when dealing with corporations which have no inherent morality of their own. I feel no remorse for shafting a corporation out of a free plane ticket when they offered it to me just to try to inflate their own numbers. They already have an advantage in that they get to make their own rules. I'm just playing their game. That said, I agree, there is a smart way to take full advantage of rewards. You want to balance short term gain from welcome bonuses with long term viability of your relationship with the banks so you can keep earning rewards. As with anything, different people have different tolerance for risk.

because when your a KZfaqr you don't need to, affiliate links gives you way more $ than churning ever could

😂😂"have to wait til you reincarnate" Hilarious!

I have the excel sheet you’re talking about lol 🤐

I churn but not very aggressively. I never close the cards. I just call and have them lower the credit limit to 1,000$.

Agreed. I'm all for getting value out of available offers. But churning is the reason these companies are pulling back offers and removing benefits. People are taking advantage of the system and ruining it for all of us.

That "industrial churner" mentality seems more of an larger opportunity cost than financing a business whose profit ceiling isn't limited to the profits of credit card companies.

"upgrade yourself" that's deep -- I see why they call you the shifu now!

I don't churn for one reason only: it's too much work! LOL

I mostly agree with you. The thing is just like anything else in a capitalist society, some people will exploit every possible loophole to the max. I can't get on a high horse here because I churn some myself, but I do so at a snail's pace and with organic spend only. So my 3 cards a year or so is laughable to the thousands of people that manufacture spend, get dozens of cards a year, etc. You read forums where people state that they make enough "money" churning to make it their full time job. It's sort of a survival of the fittest mentality that's somewhat morally disturbing, at least to some of us. They are also the same people that you will find arguing about evil greedy corporations that only care about their profits.

Oh I’m so sad about the credit card companies losing money...lol

It's stupid being poor (generally) and twice a year going on a fancy vacation and coming back to your poor life. Very sad but very true... time could be better spent making yourself holistically rich.

Interesting take. Not sure I agree 100% with you on this, but that's the beauty of this game, many ways to play it. Keep up the good work 👍.

Churning is NOT morally wrong. Not even remotely

No hatred to churners, but it gets old and very time consuming after a while. When a person is focused on their career and family, it is better to be savvy.

How about churn checking account for sign up bonus ?

Totally agree that churning is not good for relationships with banks.

Make a video about how you did your points taxes with the 1099. Please!!!

I was told once about an Eastern Indian Proverb, that you can't fool an honest man. Having watching various family members get burned by over half a million by conmen, who themselves chase dodgy petty opportunity, I believe it. Nothing mystical, just being willing to use others, clouds judgement and makes you a target to bigger fish. Obviously churning is more of a grey area, but personally for me, it is too close to the fence for comfort.

11:34 "rinsing every bit of value" - I think the saying is "squeezing", as opposed to "rinsing" ... think of squeezing every last bit of juice out of an orange ...

I churn for my first few cards with the financial institution but after a few I cool off. Consistent points through normal use does it for me 👍

I'm into credit cards for the long term value. To me a sign up bonus is just a bonus and not the main reason I apply for a card. I understand the outsized value of churning compared to a 'set and forget' strategy but I would rather get cash back/points on money that I spend in day to day life. I hope that banks continue to tighten the noose on churners and pay more attention to the relationships with established customers who are willing to play ball.

I'm churning bank accounts, but am a credit card savvy consumer 😉 but with two businesses and a player 2 (wife) "savvy consumer" does feel like churning sometimes

"the spirit of the rules" mean nothing in the finance industry. They don't give a damn who they shaft. Play them at their own game and make every move count for you. Like a game of Chess really.

The Credit Shifu is a stand up guy and by all measure a Class Act. Carry on dear Sir!

5th Level: Work for an airline and never need to buy tickets again.

“Breaking the spirit of the rules.” 😆

Your enlightenment comment was the same realization that I went through! And I thought, how is everyone NOT doing this? Instead of churning, I get 1 to 3 sign up bonuses per year with cards that can be downgraded. So I don't close those accounts. Anyways, I appreciate your videos brotha! Keep spreading good knowledge.

I think some credit card companies encourage it! Like Chase, for example. We missed the sub for the CSR. And when I called to inquire about it, the representative basically told us to open another card and get the SUB from that one.

This is the MOST realistic video ever made about the points and miles game, Nailed it Shifu!

The counter argument to this is the fact that most times the opportunities for bonuses keep getting more restrictive. That's why there is this aggresive culture of churning. It's the act now while you can motto.

Good video. I've seen a ton of videos of ppl giving advice to cancel cards after getting the bonus. I think that's bad advice. I agree with you about being a savvy consumer.

So what are you saying about Ask Sebby and The Points Guy?

Replace the word ‘churn’ with ‘speed’. “I speed some every day, but not as much as some others who speed a ton all over town” You get the point, it works over and over. In the end, it’s all very subjective. Yes, speeding is illegal and could be dangerous to others, but I’m referring 10 vs 15 vs 20 mph over the limit on a highway with no traffic and great visibility. Meaning, it’s all about the risk you’re willing to take to get busted. Sebby’s method of open and then downgrade I wouldn’t classify as churning, Open then close, then open again is churning. I have a spreadsheet, but it’s to manage my perks, anniversary bonuses, when to use which cards, and eligible dates for new cards.

Agreed Shifu! I def take advantage of bonuses, but I've always just tried to focus on finding and adjusting to always have the best array of keepers (with and w/o AFs) that maximize my benefits from normal spend.

I completely agree. It is better to have a good relationship with businesses (banks, credit unions, other kinds of financial institutions) than to take advantage of them. There are better ways to build up points/add value to your money then to play with the system. Great video Credit Shifu!

Why is it assumed that only poor people or people without a side hustle churn? I have a very nice income and a very successful independent side hustle. Also, why should I feel sympathy for a credit card company whose sole job is to advertise and promote people to go into debt, rather than having people paying in cash or with a debit card? Their goal is for you to buy more than you can afford so they can earn interest on that balance. That is the logic of a credit card company. That is why I have no moral sympathy for taking a credit card reward. 🤑

I churn when my credit score is stellar and I need to make a large purchase

A financial channel that has a moral issue with gaining capitalism. Interest concept.

I really respect you for this position Ben. You have good values and morals.

Most common sense advice I have ever heard in a Credit Card video.

I don't think it's immoral to play by the banks rules. If it cost them that much maybe they shouldn't have had the rewars to that extent in the first place.

So do you churn bank accounts?

What if you get a horrid card for the sign up bonus, then dont use it so they cancel the card. Wait the required time, then reapply.

Hey Credit Shifu, I don't churn as there is value with the cards I carry. As my company uses Delta, I started with the Delta Gold, then I got cornered (at the airport :) into getting the Delta Platinum, then I applied for the Delta Reserve following that. I did get approved for all three so I must have waited for the right amount of time. I did cancel the Gold card since it did not add long term value but I still have the other two. AMEX has been a great financial partner of mine for many years and I carry 6 AMEX cards so that may be the difference.

"...wait until you reincarnate for another AmEx bonus..." That's some deep shifu stuff there! lol

Forgive me father for I have sinned. I used a coupon at Burger King for a free Whopper

Damn he called my churning hobby “poor” and “sleazy”

“Churn”? I thought you were saying “Turn”.

I clicked this vid because I am interested in playing the game of churning but, at the same time I want make sure I understand the other side of the argument as to why is not a good idea to churn. After watching this vid and hearing his argument.. I feel I am more convince of wanting churn and play the game which they had laid out to began with and keep up with the update. your argument didn't convince that their is HIGH RISK/Legality/danger/Criminal..etc. It seem so Risk is there only if you don't play the game right.. like paying late or doing the more advance risk technique that involves Churning etc. if one is good with Money (and I am ) and approach this in a conservative manner (like Dr. Kevin Jubbal) and play by game's rule that is laid out and not take excess risk.......I Don't see anything wrong with it. Thank you for the valuable info Shifu, I Plan to hear more reason why is not good idea until fully convinced is not good idea.

Awesome video Shifu. I agree opening and closing accounts can definitely hurt your relationship with banks as well as your credit score. Being a smart customer and churning are definitely different...besides as time goes on these banks will continue to crack things down.

people who get in trouble for churning are just bad at it. Churning isn't about breaking rules of using cheat codes to a game everyone is playing its about min/maxing credit card points and regular spend

You need to add a laugh track to your videos.

We used to churn on the farm. Was nothing like this.

Does Dave Ramsey have the Credit Shifu hostage lol. I always thought what I was doing was credit card churning. I only open accounts that have downgrade paths and the ones that don’t I make sure I get more value than what I put in.

I would only cancel a credit card it has an annual fee like my American express green card since it has a $150 annual fee when I get tired of paying it every year. If it's a no annual fee card, it's a no brainer to keep it open and just if it's a no annual fee card, it's a no brainer to keep it open and just put it a small recurring charge to keep it open. Churning through credit cards could also get you black listed places like American Express.

So i can get a sign up bonus for the Amex Gold and Platinum?!?

I enjoy the mindset you have. Plus those memes were on point!!!

As a churner, I moderately agree. It makes no sense having a great holiday to just go back to your minimum wage job. The organizational skills and problem solving should be put to use in a legitimate business. BUT, I also sell on Amazon, Shopify, and sell some the Tradelines(controversial I know). This is in addition to referrals, my KZfaq Channel, and my full time job. You can do all of the above and I am one of many.

I never churned even one card. I've kept all my 4 cards and haven't cancelled a single one, as I spread expenses across them all to keep the usage low on each. Each also has a function, like one for groceries, one for travel etc.

I generally like your videos... but... WTF kind of message was that? Be a slow churner... don't be a churner. Be financially savvy, don't be a churner. If you want to be financially savvy, you should probably be trying to extract as much value as you can without damaging your credit score or financial relationships, don't you think? And just because I start a business and make some money doesn't mean I'm going to start blowing it on $14K around the world in biz class plane tickets. I would never spend real money like that, but with points... I do it annually! Who cares if the rest of my life doesn't look like my vacation biz class life? Points are paying for it and I'm travelling the world like I own it, which is much better than the vacations I took before I started collecting lots of points. YOLO

on the topic of morality, churning can be moral if you view the predatory practice of banks offering subprime people cards/loans. they have their models and know they will make money off the poor. by churning credit cards it lowers their profit margins and reduces the incentive for the banks to harm these vulnerable people. the more u churn the less vulnerable people get exploited. seems moral to me...

I tought of doing it, but i don't have the energy to keep up!!

The credit rewards game is no different than the dating game. Everyone is on their best behavior at the start. They bend over backwards to woo someone. But as time goes on, a lot of people get taken for granted. The effort & appreciation really tails off. That's when it's time to hop off 1 ride...and hop on another. Most credit cards are SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED to only be hugely beneficial in year #1. The terms, in most cases, encourage churning. Nothing immoral at all about earning the highest rate of return possible. If a creditor wants loyalty, then they need to design a card that offers LONG TERM value.

Nothing immoral about CC churning any more than it’s not immoral for CCs to charge 20%+ for the credit. If they don’t want people to take the rebate, they shouldn’t offer it!

One card l got bonus of $200 l cancelled card later because of low credit limit after 2 years of using it never got increase. Well fast forward three years later l reapplied for exact same card but higher credit limit this time l was surprised l got the $200 bonus again, l didn't expect that.

Churning is like people who clip coupons and other means of taking advantage of marketing dollars used to attract new customers. All my cards are No-Annual-Fee because I'm unable to use any travel rewards and I just focus upon everyday spending [Blue-Cash Everyday card has 3% cash credits on groceries] and unlike Ask-Seby there is no real way to maximize credits between cards.. I do get the welcome bonus (if offered), utilize the Introductory offer (0%), and use the Balance Transfer to avoid interest as often as possible.. As a consumer, I am looking for some value to use credit cards to improve my credit rating, nothing more.

Fully agree on the #Churning. Based on your other video of the percentage of Americans who take advantage of credit card points with their spend, it all suggests that these bonuses are only sustainable as long as only some small percentage of the population does it. There will be a "critical mass" where once enough people churn, it will quickly become unsustainable for the credit card companies and benefits will get pulled. I am not saying im not guilty of some myself but that was in my earlier days where I didnt quite realize the full effect of churning. I've since stopped and only go for keeper cards where the sign-on bonus would be exactly that--a bonus-- and figuring out how the bonus earning categories can be optimized where no dollar is earning only 1x. otherwise focusing on boosting my actual income vs the rebate on my spend, which has a ceiling and will never match increased income from a succesful business, raises and promotions. Thanks for all the info you share with us #CreditShifu

Glad you've finally said this, although you've done many videos in the past spreading info about grey area techniques that were clearly in violation of the terms of the card agreements (like which airline gift cards code as incidental spend). The bottom line message should be, especially to young people, that you don't cheat because the credit card companies hold all the 'cards' and can really make you wish you hadn't. As you just said - it's not worth having your credit screwed up.

Dude, morally wrong. Really. I guess you are getting paid off by the credit card companies now. When are you shutting down your channel and entering the seminary?

I lazily churn cards. Probably signed up for 4 cards over the past 2 years. If i get an offer in the mail with a nice sign up bonus, I'll usually apply once I know I have a sizeable bill coming up. I don't really close the accounts either. I set up e-mail notifcations when charges are placed or bills or due (Whatever that particular card offers), and forget it exists. I don't see how it's possible to profit 20k-30k a year from churning. I mean most sign up bonuses require you spend between 3-6x the sign up bonus in a small time frame to get the sign up bonus. If you earn 20-30k a year, you'd have to put between 60k-180k on things you'd normally buy in order to profit that much from sign up bonuses. Otherwise all the sign up bonus is doing is giving you discounts on superfluous spending. And from I see most higher end card rewards don't havecash sign up bonuses but a large cash value of 'points' for things like free flights or access to fancy lounges. It also looks like credit card companies have heavily reigned in sign up rewards in the last 5 years or so. I really don't see how you profit 20-30k.

Credit Shifu, could you do a video explain the pros & cons of having a card from VISA, Master Card, Discover, Amex and possibly UnionPay?

I agree and follow everything stated in this video. Great video Shifu!

I completely disagree with the moral argument, but the argument about focusing your efforts on making more money is a good one.

Well said bro. Seasonal wealth. That is almost like working one a year and being unemployed for the rest.

i hear you and feel the same way about ppl taking advantage of glitches on a merchant website

#creditshifu, my wife loves the song you play at the ending of your videos. What was the name of the song/artist? We were having trouble finding it online.Thanks, we love your videos! :)

Thanks for this. I operate with integrity, and sleep well at night. Cheers

Its called the sub game if you don't close your accounts. I have only closed 1 cc and that was when i was young and stupid.

why I don't churn points? because I don't need to. I have a successful KZfaq channel.

Why cancel a card at all? Cant you churn and keep your cards?

This is a great video, with a lot of valid points.

You could... Qualify as a ski patrol and get free lift tickets.

Morally wrong.... you do realize these are credit card companies? I dont mind paying for travel...HAHAHHAHA

How about milk, do you churn it?

wait you're the guy from Learn Chinese channel

The churners caused these card companies really cutting a lot of card benefits. But anyways, just be smart. The challenge is that your points loses value while sitting in your rewards program. The card companies can do anything to your points. So no matter being a churner or not, your goal should always be liquidating the reward points. And if you end-up having a lot of points sitting around all accounts, and don't actually use any of those, you were actually reverse-churned. As a card company, their card benefit agreement defines how many points you can get, but not how much those points worth. Let's see Hilton Aspire. A nice card, but points depreciated like hell (0.6cpp -> 0.3cpp).

Great video! I currently only have 4 cards ( 2 chase, discover student, Amex everyday) I refer my friends and others. Every card I get I want to keep. At the moment the only other one I plan to get is the sapphire preferred. Churning and making all the graphs and calculations in my opinion is not right. I’d rather play fair.

If you actually did the math, anything with annual fees will get you after the intro period. Find a credit union and get the 1.5% cash back across the board. Don’t get fooled. You aren’t really getting s reward, you are paying to feel like a winner. It’s just sucking you into constant spending. Spending more to get a little prize. You are only winning more debt.