Anyone else unsure of how they’ve landed here?

Are these trains really small or are you really big?

I have never owned a model train. I have never had any interest in model trains. I have never watched a video about trains, models, or model trains. But somehow KZfaq's magic algorithm decided your channel is just what I needed. So I just sat through a video about your passionate and burning hatred of helices. I can now add a checkmark to a mental list of "things what I done." Just thought you'd like to know.

I love the way model trains make this older gentleman's face light up. You can practically see his 12 year old self shining through.

I don't model railroad, nor will I ever - it's just not for me. That said, I love the craftsmanship of the hobby, and will occasionally watch a KZfaq video, just to enjoy the great work that people do. An extra bonus is learning that this hobby, like so many others, has its own set of opinions and fights. The homebrew boat building community fights over bow thrusters, software people fight over indenting style and language choice...and railroaders have strong opinions on helixes. I love it!

I have no idea why this was recommended, but i am glad it was.

This is a serious hobby. Wow. This guy nails it and is passionate for sure to go to such lengths for his hobby. Great job sir.

I'm not even mad the algorithm is wonky and this showed up in recommended.

"Uncouplings and derailments tend to occur on the hardest to reach places of the layout." Oh, how I WISH you had known my father back in the 1950s!!! Daddy bought OS model trains before the birth of his first two children, obviously expecting boys. He got daughters instead (and, for the third baby, he chose NOT to buy a model train to break the jinx, but got a daughter when she was born, too). Those two trains formed the basis of our Christmas tree display each year. Every single uncoupling/derailment occurred at the back corner behind the tree which was just about impossible to reach. I'm laughing now at the memory of his swearing and my mother--a bit more agile and less upset--coming into the lay-out covered living room to assist him in getting the derailed/uncoupled cars out of that corner and onto the long straightaway at the front of the display. Thanks for your vlog and for reviving a childhood memory. (By the way, I bough my son an HO model train for his childhood--but I waited until after he was born to buy it for him--no jinx).

Hi from New Zealand. until moving cities last year, I was part of an active US HO modelling group operating ever two weeks across six (and occasionally a seventh) layouts six of which had helices. These layouts simply would not function without them so despite all the issues you have "correctly" identified, unless there is the space for gradients, the moral of the story is they are an essential necessity... I do enjoy your YT clips, thanks for taking the time to put them together.

I didn't know this was a thing. Glad i stopped by, very interesting hobby.

Why am I watching this video? I don't even own miniature trains

Man, this was a weird recommendation, but I gotta say, I'm glad I stayed and watched it all, as it turned out to be quite the niche yet fascinating subject!

I like the helix because it does make the train disappear for a while. One knows not where it will emerge if one is a new viewer of the layout. Part of the fun is taken away on completely open layouts.

You guys realize that the KZfaq Recommendation Algorithm is more intelligent than you by several orders of magnitude? Just accept it's decisions and watch the video.

When the trains enter the helix, they are temporarily transported to a magical world, where trains are the most intelligent species. They go there to mate. Once their mating is complete, they return to your home at a speed that suits them.

By the way, a train lift is a tough thing to build as the trains get longer. A 20-car HO (steam era) freight train is at least 10 feet long, and 20 cars is the approximate minimum to give that "mile-long freight train" impression we North American railroaders love. A 12 foot train-lift, with counterweights, is going to weigh a lot if you make it from aluminium! Incidentally, it is easy to put in physical gates attached to the bridge as it lifts and lowers so none of your trains take a fatal scale 600 foot plunge to the floor. I have never built either type, but apparently it is possible to just hinge one end, and rotate the bridge. However, that also requires well-planned vertical curve so the trains can negotiate the passage on and off the bridge. I recommend studying UK model techniques closely, because they model a prototype that historically ran relatively short trains, compared to North America, Europe, etc. That's why UK modelers can use fiddle yards, train lifts, all kinds of tricks to enjoy model railroading in their smaller homes. UK steam-era railroads also used a lot of tender locomotives so the steamers can be run in both directions without being turned. The Great Western Ry. even developed a fleet of steam-powered bi-directional passenger trains ("Autotrains")), where the "driver" could run the train from the front coach as the steam engine pushed the train from the "rear"; i.e., GWR did with steam power what we now call "push-pull" in today's diesel-powered trains. The steamer could also be run in the middle of the train with controls on both ends. So anyway, their prototype is model-genic, as the late John Armstrong (1920-2004) pointed out. * * * BTW, my theory about why a 10-15 foot freight train (8 car passenger train) looks "right" on a model railroad is that this is enough length for us to not be able to see the engine and last car at the same time. The experience of watching a train is seeing the engine, then watching all the cars go by, until the caboose, pusher engine, last car comes into view. Then we usually turn our heads and watch the tail end disappear. That 30 car "drag freight" looks great because we get to experience the joy of train-watching in model form. Another problem is that no matter how much space (and money) is available, model railroaders compress space to give the impression the train is going somewhere. It is one thing to see the locomotive pop out of Tunnel 4 while the caboose is crossing Bear Creek trestle. It is quite another when the head end power is threading the alpine splendor of Threadneedle Canyon while the caboose is still out in the Tabletop Desert. Having just said that, a 10 car O Scale train (or 4 car passenger train) looks too short on a model railroad, even though it is the length of a 20 car HO Scale train. I think it is because our brain counts up to 10 (or 4) too easily. I think that one of many reasons why pre-1960 modeling is popular is that a train of 20 boxcar red and black freight cars tends to lull the brain as it unconsciously counts cars, compared to a 15 car string of brightly-colored modern cars. Have you ever noticed how a model unit coal train or unit COFC/TOFC train seems longer than a train of unique cars, i.e., the local way-freight? Ironically, if you see a "full-scale" train on a club railroad--say 80 cars or more--it seems to go on forever and a day. Not only is that kind of boring to watch, but all kinds of real-world "train dynamics" issues appear like broken couplers, slack that runs in at the wrong time, or just the whole train tips itself over on a sharp curve. We want our trains to operate like the prototype, but that does not include trains that snap in two or pull themselves over while circling a minimum radius curve. No doubt the real railroads wish they could keep their trains 20-30 cars long and still be competitive. LOL Hope that helps you enjoy your model railroad.

It took me a moment to realize that this was about model trains (which Im rather clueless about) because I just came from about a dozen or so roller coaster videos and clicked on this because I couldnt imagine someone not liking the helix element on a coaster ;)

I can't wait until I retire.

Remove fascia,install removable sliding doors,or flip up covering in wood or glass. You need access from outside for trouble shooting.

Just caught your channel for the first time this morning and I like it. I presume that you take the time to script your presentations because I don't observe the stammering, ums, and long pauses mid-sentence that drive me to distraction on other channels. So, if you do this unscripted, my hat's off to you for your natural talent. Anyway: I appreciate your work and am learning from you.

Nice presentation! Thank you. Even though a helix might have the dilemmas you mentioned, yet it can also still be unavoidable for layouts with multiple operating levels and not enough room for gradual straight-line descents and ascents. I see no difficulty with leaving the helix open and visible: kids won't care that it might not be normal in real-life operations and adults will understand why it's being used on a layout. Plus helixes are indeed found in the real world - the Swiss have (at least) one that I'm aware of (although it's not a perfect circle), and who knows where else they might be found. So leave it open and maybe even dress it up with scenery, etc. (or not) - have fun with it! Either that or make sure the helix is accessible for cleaning, repairs, and derailments. You might even consider adding a third (and fourth?) operating level to your layout! Enjoy!

Im glad this was in my recommend videos. I feel like this is what I'll be like in about 50-60 years. Great content 👌 👌 👌 👌

Could you have a steeper gradient if the trains only ever go downhill on it?

You mentioned the difficulty of cleaning the track in your helix. I suggest that you design and construct a special rail car for that purpose, and then patent and sell it and become rich and build yourself a BIGGER layout that needs no helix.

A well presented video and editorial. Further, your track, trains, and scenery look quite nice. I don't truly get your beef with helixes, however. 1) At the speed your trains are traveling I would imagine they would reach the staging level within 40 seconds. If that's too long for you we might conclude you're a little impatient! Helixes can make us feel as if we are train chasing if we use our imagination: out in the field we sometimes cannot access trackage and must push on to the next site where we can see our chase once again. In these instances sometimes we can hear the train (at distance) but still can't get close to it. Our model railroad helixes perform exactly the same duty. Sip your beverage of choice for 30 seconds. 2) Running trains often keeps track (yes, even helix trackage) quite clean. I haven't cleaned track in years. 3) If your track in your helix is bulletproof as you advise, you should be experiencing zero derailments. The only time I see the inside of any of my helixes is when I'm curious to study a spider or two. 4) Yes, cutting access windows in the fascia to view a helix can be an improvement, as you have done on your western helix. This is an opportunity to make a portion of one revolution a shadowbox scene of sorts: deepen the inside radius portion to make a deeper, fully scenicked scene. Ask me how I know! Use your imagination. 5) Throw out most "rules" about building a helix. I am an HO modeler. I have four helixes on my layout. Each utilizes 22" radius sectional track (easy laying within the confines of the helix superstructure - it's pre-curved, not unwieldy like flextrack), and my grade is 3.5%, thus 3.25" of elevation change per revolution. Therefore my footprint is a 4' circle. Most would tell you this is insanity. I will tell you trains operate flawlessly at any speed (even lightning fast, when required to stage trains) in either direction. Forget about how goofy your locos look on this radius, and that your long cars will overhang unrealistically - who's going to see it? The spiders, that's all. I'm not knocking your opinion, I'm merely offering a counter argument. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Keep railroading!

Boy Roy! Sometimes railroads need to be built in the worst of places. I would open up the fascia. The spacers might be able to be replaced with ones with thinner profiles. On the viewed side I would install some hidden string lights behind very narrow fascia, flat scenery backdrops, and maybe some smile (scale mile) markers and station name or two.. Then just watch the trains roll. You would be able to clean at least half the track without going underneath. If you still really hate it enough build another one, then tear it out and start all over. Sometimes railroads need to be built in the worst of places. Mike

When talking about Helixs, most people think of a "pure" Helix where there is a constant radius and grade. By changing the radius and gradient, you can do some interesting things. Think of a spiral and a mountain. By having a larger radius at the base of the mountain, you can have track that that, instead of going over the top of the base layer, tightens up a bit and is offset - this lessens the grade and lets you build a mountainside. Utilizing this and a "helix" that is more of an oval gives you a lot more options (although may not be prototypical for your area).

Why is this is my recommended

The Helix is also a track eater. How many feet of flex track did you use on it?

Thank you for your views on helixes. Back in the 80s I had a long, obscured tunnel section which had a small open section for track cleaning. I was a nightmare. Derailments and damage to consists was always a possibility. OUT IT WENT. Simplicity is best, don't stress.

Excellent training. Cheers!

What a cool little video, this makes me miss the big HO system I had with my Father way, way, way back in the day.

According to the southern transportation documentary Dukes Of Hazard, you just have the trains _jump_ to upper and lower decks... preferably while a horn toots Dixie

Very interesting video. Thanks for posting this.

Thanks for all the great thoughts on Helix's! I am looking at building a room for my trains and would like to go from the table to above the doors for a boarder track. This video gave me some good things to think about!

Why is this in my recommended videos, and why am I watching it

I am actually building a helix due to the small amount of space I have and I actually WANT the train to be gone for some amount of time. I have a 3.5’ x 6’ layout and I am planning to add two helix’s to each side. This will allow me to run multiple trains on my small layout and have some disappear for some time allowing other to use the layout and still run and have many trains on the track at one time. Below the table where the helix connects I am going to add on a large yard to house different trains to dispatch and head up the helix to the layout.

I built two 1% grade connection tracks off the north end of the junction . Both are off the Butler subdivision main within the Butler junction limits to access the Rocky Run subdivision for either northbound or southbound moves to or from the 2nd level which work well and are nicely integrated into the layout . Just tried to keep it simple....

I am always impressed with people who have the creativity and stamina to design and construct such a complicated layout. The best I could do was use a 4x8 sheet of plywood when I was a kid to design mine.

My advice... make access to the helix 100% all around by not having any permanently fixed fascia and instead use 'magnetically' mounted/removable panels where the fascia would be 👌

i'd just pay the US military 5 trillion dollars to develop the stargate and then instantly teleport the train from the upper level to the lower level

What’s the radius on your helix? I’m looking into options, but I run 60s-1990. I have 89’ tofc trains and dd40x’s so I’m trying to make sure it’s something that will be sufficient.

KZfaq just gave me your channel as a suggestion and I enjoyed your humor and your content. You have a nice layout. I used to run HO 35 years ago so I subscribed. Cheers!

One thing: Always have the track going up be on the outer side of the helix, there the gradient is smaller. Here in Switzerland even the real railroads do that. As they drive on the left side, most curves are going right. A almost helix in real life can be found here (46.4250745 8.9079617)

You can install a video camera inside the helix or even several to monitor the trains. If you use several, maybe cheap webcams and led strips?

Great points. I am in the first stages of planning.

Lovely video, thank you for making it!

I really like the Amtrak train. Very nice.

I’m just glad the trains finally made it. I was getting concerned.

Nice video, interesting and I understood the humour in suggesting that "the trains running the eastern helix take an incredible time". Thanks for showing your hobby.

when i was a kid my dad would take me to our towns model railroad club. I still remember all the great guys like yourself who made it all possible. thanks to all model railroad guys everywhere!

Put rare earth magnets on the fascia so it makes the track accessible. Never place track where it cannot be serviced.

I'm not a train model enthusiast, but I love technical problems and making solutions for them.. First.. Derailments and simplicity. I'm not sure how your power distribution looks, but i'd assume you have multiple power supplies for different sections or runs of track? If this is the case, you can simply place an ammeter inline with the power supply for the helix. This will tell you several things.. It will tell you if the cars derailed (current drops to 0A), it can tell you if the trains crashed in the helix (current increases substantially as an engine tries motoring through the wreckage. And last.. It can possibly indicate a dirty track and even WHERE you have dirty track (Current draw is inconsistent and has a bunch of spikes from engines connecting and disconnecting from the track.) Furthermore.. Not a legitimate model car, but, it is possible that you can clean track by abrasive or chemical means using a car to do it for you within the helix. It doesn't have to be manual labor. ESPECIALLY because you have a motive force (The engine) and you have an electric track. For chemical cleaning, you can make a tank car an actual tank car where you put some cleaner in the tank which can feed a piece of felt, which is dragged along the track in front of the tank car and you can even add some drying/scrubbing pads to the rear of the car for a multiple pass cleaning. You also have an electrified track. this means you can fit a soda ash car with metal wheels and electric pads that you can connect to a drive motor. You can use this motor to drive a pair of buffing wheels that ride atop the tracks with minimal force, be sand paper, scotch brite, or even a pair of small buffing wheels. attach this car to the back of an engine and drag it through the helix. if it is setup properly, it would be a very low effort maintenance cleaning of the helix, or the rest of the track for that matter.. or, you just buy a track cleaning car for $40.. LOL

Very interesting. Have a nice day now.

Hello Roy this is Robert! As You may recall, I told you that I'.m interested in the Horse Shoe Curve and also the NYC subway! But now I'm more inclined in the latter! The Horse Shoe Curve seems a little more complex! In my last posted comment I commented about what kind layout software could be suitable for building O Scale Train layouts! Did You use use one for building your layout? Are there some affordabmle ones available?

No idea how I got here...

Make some cutouts in the helix fascia and cover them with curtains when you don't need to access the track. This way they are more accessible than they are when you have to crawl under the table, and they are still concealed when you don't need to see the unsightly helix (which should be most of the time). And the curtains can be as plain or as fancy as you want to blend in (or not blend in) with your scenery.

There was a helix in my first plan for the space I now have . Other potential problem areas were a bit of hidden track, narrow aisles, a short section of track passing through a scene twice, and locating a reversing section. I solved all of those possible issues by reducing the footprint of the layout. My solution came when I gave up the idea of cramming the space I have with the most layout possible. Luckily, I'm still able to achieve all of my goals with more simple plan. Now there will be no helix, no hidden track, no reversing section, but wider aisles. I think you have come up with the most reasonable solution for the space you have and for what you want to achieve with your layout. I'd leave the helix in place while reducing your irritation by employing suggestions made here by other subscribers. You haven't indicated derailment problems (an advantage of Kato Unitrack) and a track cleaning car(s) should further reduce the need to crawl under the helix.

Roy I have a question I want to use kato track which switches did you use on your yard and how did you determine your radius in kato track without purchasing a bunch of track

This was actually funnier than I though it would be! As a helix builder, I can relate to some of those six reasons (mainly, nos. 4 and 5). Some of the other reasons (mainly, nos. 3 and 6) are actually the reasons why I like helices, whereas the remainder of the lot are no issues with me - not yet, anyway. A helix is a great challenge and it can occasion great moments of joy when it has been build and trains are finally running on it. P.S. But where are three of the trains going into the helix? Four went in, only one cam out!

Probably controversial, but I actually like the look of helixes. Then again, I'm not necessarily a model railroader, more of a train enthusiast that likes model trains. I found plans for a small n-gauge track that has 2 prominant helixes incorporated to allow for more running room in a small space, and I absolutely love it!

How many different Evanstons does the UP serve? (I live on the N side of Chicago, adjacent to Evanston, IL, on the UP's Kenosha Sub., far from your Evanston Sub.)

What I loved is the portal at the top of Soldiers Summit, between Price and Spanish Fork, UT, I built a representation of that Portal using n-Gauge track etc. back in 1980, I gave it to my Son for Christmas. He didn't appreciate it and my work went by the wayside. I was a pretty fair modeler, but since he was never interested, it stopped. Keep it up.

you need to hire some kids to graffiti a couple of those rail cars . thats the one thing model railroads always seem to be missing

I would put something like 2 hinged doors into the grey wall, so you can expose the trains for any visitors and keep them closed when you're alone and don't want to see the helix. And if you still like to build a bridge, why not that too? Just make it so that a train has the option to drive straight onto the bridge, or turn left into the helix tunnel. I really wouldn't want to waste the work that went into the helix. With the addition of a bridge, you can avoid using it (less maintenance needed?) and alternate between using it and using the bridge, in case of guests.

I am just planning my first proper layout but I was considering check rails on any curves not "visible". I know that check rails would be a pain to retro-fit but a long piece of plastic carefully glued to the centre of the track would reduce the chances of derailment in the helix. It would have to allow the wheel flanges enough room on the curve though. I wonder whether z-gauge track running up the centre of n-gauge track might work as check rails. It would have the advantage that one could electrically connect the check rails to the running rails and possibly help any hesitant locomotive. It would need some experimentation. Just a couple of wild thoughts on what could help if you decide to keep the helix.

I am fixing to build a n scale layout that operates almost like the Paducah & Louisville line in Kentucky. I have about 60ft of wall to build on, I was thinking about a helix to make a loop, so I dont have to run from one yard to the other yard back and forth. I am really stuck on what to do.

I plan on having multiple custom helixes under my layout so I can have the train disappear for long periods of time. I don’t like the idea of having my train constantly being viewable on the layout and having it loop around every 60 seconds. I think making the trains disappear in the hidden helix is more prototypical since I have a small layout.

I like the bridge idea. Maybe even a draw bridge if it impedes foot traffic

Excellent. All great points. My solution would be to have a hinged bridge that acts like a bascule bridge allowing access to the center of the layout without any "duck unders". Simple is good.

nice work on the track, great video.

Great googley moogley. This video blew up! Congrats.

If trains disappear in the helix, maybe the tunel entrance is a portal to another dimension.

Thanks for the video. Nice layout.

Always loved this scale of model trains!

Why did youtube suggest this to me. Never mind, I'm hooked...

Informative

Roy, you're awesome. Love the layout!

Really amazing thumbs up

Why I keep getting strange videos in my recommended.

I feel like the helix could be replaced with a long grade, which can add lots of scenery space along the tracks for hills, trees, backdrop buildings, etc.

I love your videos! I am a freelance HO scale modeler and my highest inventory of roadnames is CSX, behind that is UP, and third is Amtrak

Roy, I have considered the issues you presented and come up with a solution for my multi level layout. I am using loops at the ends of long inclines against the back of different levels of my layout, this allows single loops at each end that can have landscape modeled. Though the ceiling is a bit low to the next loop for me, that all depends on the length of the yard level back wall and how much slope one can fit. So the basic idea is a 270 turn and running along the back of the layout in front or behind the scenery. These long gradients can have flat scenery behind the track and a short area of scenery in front, and one can see the trains progress. Reverses at each end, and with enough slope in between each end turn can be a modeled horseshoe layout area. Either a normal horseshoe or an over/under tehachapi style loop. The turns at the end drop the grade enough it can proceed under itself keeping it all flat along the back wall. So instead of a helix a narrow shelf layout inside the main layout. You can use the sections of a preexisting helix to build it, nice start since the curves are perfect you just need like 270 degrees of a turn. Most of the track is just straight all along the back of the yard, just 2-3 inches wide. If its 2% to drop 8 inches, it will be the same length of track and time you just will be able to play with it and model it instead of the helix issues of being so darn unrealistic and difficult. Some areas could be wider and more modeled, like 4-6 inches and a little station or something. That is what I plan on doing to have more stops for my passenger trains, since a single siding and platform and flat image of the station will fit nicely in a narrow space. In the process of building this style multi level layout, sawdust everywhere and tools and lumber spread about, and will have an update on it soon.

"Its been four years and 149 days and i cant move or look away or I might miss it. I have been eating scenic shrubbery and urinating in empty coal hoppers."

Ugh, it's a little spooky that the trains just disappear like that, time slip stuff

I liked the detail of the hopper car at the end of the tanker train. That shows a serious familiarity with railroad operations.

Hi Roy. I for one appreciate your video. I have started my own N scale collection years ago but have not been able to start any kind of layout. I like to listen to advise of model railroaders so that some day I may have at least a modest layout of my own. Thank you.

I hope in a former life you were a teacher? Your style - your delivery - I doubt there is a subject you could teach that I wouldn't get an 'A' in it.

Have you considered putting a FPV (first person view) camera system on your trains? You could watch from the inside of the trains and enjoy/monitor your trains.

I've been planning and have thought about this very thing. You were right about UN prototypical look of this arrangements. It looks too mechanical for a model which we know for aesthetically pleasing eyes. However I think that the amount of time that you've taken with your layout and the fact that the engineering is sound leads for a sort of mysterious time gap, like where did it go. It obviously works. It looks great and like I said has that mystique about it. Like my grandpa always chanted while I was trashing a working bicycle. " if it works don't mess with". I looks very good to me and I only hope that if I finally am able to start mine after 35 years of collecting all grades of train, track, models, scenics that it turns out as good as yours did! Good luck!

Have a second identical train already in the helix toward the exit of the helix and run it when the first train finishes entering. Then stop the first train toward the exit, ready to go as the twin train enters the helix.

Helix's are tricky at best. Personally, I prefer not to utilize them as they're not very prototypical. However, I can see on certain model layouts, they might become almost necessary in order to facilitate better train movements in confined spaces. Scale aside, a helix just doesn't look good. Locomotive/ car movements within ones layout can be far more realistic if planned out accordingly. Of course, everyone has an opinion or opinions about helix's. What's important is to be constructive in ones criticism of others and not negative for the sake of negativity. I think Mr. Smith's layout is beautiful and obviously he places allot of emphasis on accuracy, detail and functionality. In N scale, this becomes even more critical on larger layouts because derailment do occur. A derailment in a helix is frustrating to be sure. So, why bother with a helix when you can move trains around in prototypical fashion? That is, yards and switches etc. Again, N scale is tricky because, cars are not always weighted correctly and become troublesome on certain parts of a layout. Last thing you want is a pile up inside a helix. Excellent video Mr. Smith and thanks for sharing your expertise on these and other issues.🚇🚂

Wholesome content

There is a lot of n scale DCC trains with lead. Is it just the decoders? Its not the shell? Is It?

I’m planning to build some small helixes into my small layout. I have very little space and I want to incorporate a helix inspired by the bernina express spiral element so I can add a viaduct bridge inspired by the Landwasser. This is very informative so Thankyou!

Wow. How did I find this? KZfaq changed its algorithms I think. Wonderful. Since you asked, I'd probably go with the bridge.

I think the bridge is the best idea.

2018 video done like 2000's love it!

The only way to avoid contrivances like helixes and duck unders is to build your layout in a space with enough square footage to accommodate the lengths of run with reasonable grades and curvature needed to get from one level to another. In other words, build your layout in a bigger room! I personally would recommend building a layout in a decommissioned Wal-Mart building if you can afford it. Sadly most of us can't afford to purchase a structure with all the space we may want for our layouts so helixes and duck unders are here to stay.