(Why) I'm Against Ear Training For Musicians...

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(Why) I'm Against Ear Training For Musicians...

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Күн бұрын

Christiaan Reacts to "5-Minute Ear Training" by @Open Studio • 5-Minute Ear Training
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Пікірлер: 38

@ChristiaanvanHemert 7 ай бұрын

I'm aware I have a huge minority view on ear training and I also know I very well could be (and probably am) wrong about it. Let me know your opinion in the comments. First watch the video of course, because I explain WHY I'm against it. Let's have a discussion! This video was originally streamed live on my Twitch channel. To be part of this process follow me there: www.twitch.tv/christiaanvanhemert Join my Discord to keep up to date and join the conversation with a cool community: discord.com/invite/ET88wYANJb

@RootinrPootine 7 ай бұрын

Saying ear training is super important would be like telling a visual artist that being able to identify the CMYK values of a color by eye is important. What’s important is how colors behave in relation to each other. Which ones go well together, etc etc

@ChristiaanvanHemert 7 ай бұрын

I was thinking about it a lot today trying to come up with the perfect tune to demonstrate exactly your point. I think I found it: "Like Someone In Love". That would be a looooot chords to just pick up on the fly but even if you could (and I have serious doubts anyone could do that AND remember it on the fly) that doesn't mean you can improvise on it at all. You'd have to understand a lot about different flavors of 5-1 movement substitutions and how to find that in the chords.

@marcuskingstanley9522 7 ай бұрын

have you heard of a book called the "Tao of jazz Improvisation" by Sheldon Zanboer. if you have i would be interested to hear what you think of it as a method to improve musical ability

@stephenashworth2480 7 ай бұрын

I would say that beginners should not worry too much about it, however, working on ear training can be very beneficial when it comes to working out melodies and chords. I would also say that it is something you definitely get better at over time and that most people can get good at it. Also, the better your ear, the more you can appreciate music that you listen to, at least, that is my experience.

@sakana8 7 ай бұрын

Christiaan, is your point of view only good for Gypsy Jazz or Jazz standards? For me, I like to listen to City pop, Smooth Jazz, R&B as well, these music usually have complicated harmonic progressions and there might not be enough resources out there for the chords. Sometime I wish I can pick them out instantly. Without ear trainning, there is no way to find out how to play those chords easily......unless there is another way around it. Therefore, I think ear training is important!

@rinkinkel 7 ай бұрын

Why do those gipsy jazz guitars sound so raspy?

@vtertezedre2621 7 ай бұрын

why I have to make clickbait titles, and why we are against it!

@sergiommartinez4820 7 ай бұрын

God of Jazz: I know hundreds and hundreds of jazz standards and in none of them is there a minor triad in first inversion. Someone: Tears God of Jazz: Should I admit that I'm not that good? No, I better tell an anecdote so they forget that in less than 2 seconds someone has found a song that uses that inversion

@ChristiaanvanHemert 7 ай бұрын

Haha true!

@ChristiaanvanHemert 7 ай бұрын

Though to be fair, I was trying to think of one and couldn't. I didn't really say there would be none. Also the second chord in Tears is often thought of as A half diminished! ;)

@j.garnergtr 7 ай бұрын

Hearing chords and qualities is insanely useful. I use it on gigs, daily. All kinds of gigs, but mostly I play jazz. Your perfect pitch is hindering your ability to see how relative pitch works for most musicians. Perhaps. I have seen this with other musicians with perfect pitch. This training is useful to most people. What are people without perfect pitch supposed to do? Hearing chord root, quality and function is the most important. Inversions good, too.

@ChristiaanvanHemert 7 ай бұрын

I really don't need it. I can just look at the bass/guitar/piano and get every chord instantly.

@ChristiaanvanHemert 7 ай бұрын

I can also listen to the lines of a good player and get it that way!

@ChristiaanvanHemert 7 ай бұрын

And every time I gigged with someone that couldn't get it would just tell them the chords, also very quick way!

@j.garnergtr 7 ай бұрын

@@ChristiaanvanHemert That's great. But how does that address the usefulness of it for folks without perfect pitch? All good. You do you. I think you might be using relative pitch, combined with theoretical knowledge. There are jazz gigs here, in the US, where they just start playing and if you don't know, you have to just figure it out, by listening. Or they want you to catch the reharms, or it gets transposed to new key at some point. Again, we all have to build our own way of dealing with this. Someone without perfect pitch may not be able to utilize yours, if yours is dependent on perfect pitch to any extent. Know what I'm saying?

@j.garnergtr 7 ай бұрын

I know my reply is a little jumbled, on rereading it. All I'm saying is, as a working jazz musician, we're expected to hear changes and pick them up, without having to watch someone's hands, just by listening. Music is sound, right? And, that, more or less, is the purpose of ear-training. Even beginning with triadic harmony. We change stuff a lot, and people got to follow. Listening and going that direction is jazz. No? I agree, though, that many people waste a lot of time "ear-training" in the wrong way. Ear-training should be learn tunes and solos by ear. Lots.

@audreycoeckelberghs3855 7 ай бұрын

Don't you ever want to learn a jazz tune that is not a standard and cannot be taught to you by anyone ? I play old jazz at my humble level and I like to find little gems in old swing recordings. In those cases I have to figure out the chords by myself. For me that's one of the coolest things to do with a band and makes it a different experience then jam sessions. Also, as a clarinet player, I can't recognize the chords by looking at guitarists' hands, and I find it very useful to be able to hear chords to some extent. For example, say I'm in a jam session and a tune starts that I know, but they're playing a different version of the chords, if I can hear it I can adapt. Or a lot of times there's a tune I have learned but I don't remember the changes very clearly, just hearing it will make it come back. You may argue that then it's not useful for guitar players but I disagree, I have played with guitarists who don't have a good ear and don't realize they're not playing exactly the same changes and that's pretty bad ! :D I'm not saying i'm very good at it, but it's definitely something I work on and find useful. I'm kind of wondering whether you might be against it because you actually have a lot of skills and experience that make it possible for you to manage in some other way and don't realize how it is for someone who doesn't have perfect pitch and a lot of experience in playing, arranging, transcribing, etc. You always give examples of great players who can't do that but I think those players have probably developped their ear by playing, even if not conceptualizing everything. I think maybe you don't realize how bad an ear we, humble players (who are probably a big part of your viewers), can have ! :D As for your argument that ear training is a way to make people feel small, i'd say then you're not against ear training, you're against some ways it's taught.

@ChristiaanvanHemert 7 ай бұрын

Thanks for your comment. To be clear, I'm not against people wanting to improve their ears (in whichever way they want). I'm against it being a priority by teachers. A lot of students think this will make them good players (there's a lot of myths around that with perfect pitch as well), so they spend all their time there. I think it's the teacher's responsibility to then say "this won't actually make you a good player. You should spend your time practicing technique, timing and vocabulary". If you then want to work on your ears besides that I'm all for it. I just don't require that of my students, because I know that's not what's going to make them good. I suspect a lot of teachers emphasize ear training just to fill teaching hours (not saying that the guys from "Open Studio" are doing this, I'm pretty sure they aren't) and that is unfair to the students that can't reason their way out of this practice on their own and just want to sound like the people they enjoy listening to in gigs and jams!

@audreycoeckelberghs3855 7 ай бұрын

@@ChristiaanvanHemert Thanks for your answer, it makes your point of view clearer and though I still don't agree completely, I appreciate the way you question things, always a healthy thing to do ! :)

@blindteo5808 7 ай бұрын

If I am good at something I like it and if I am not as good at it as other people's I don't like it is how this comes across As a lifelong Bebop bass player who was good at harmonic dictation I think it is very important to be able to hear Court qualities quickly

@ChristiaanvanHemert 7 ай бұрын

Actually in a live environment I'm extremely good at that. That was kind of the point, you don't need to do these kind of things to be able to do that.

@ChristiaanvanHemert 7 ай бұрын

There are approximately 8 different chord formulas used in jazz (251, turnaround, Christophe, backdoor, etc) so once you can distinguish between those you can hear 95% of changes on the spot. I can teach a musician that in 30 min. You gave me a good idea, I'm going to do that in a live stream!

@Yourguitarworkshop 7 ай бұрын

Hopefully the live stream will have a title that will "give away" that it is about those 8 chord formulas, I'd love to know your thoughts on them and hate to miss it 🙂 @@ChristiaanvanHemert

@josdurkstraful 7 ай бұрын

Sorry but I think it's rediculous to be "against" ear training for "musicians". I guess you just mean "I myself are not fond of eartraining" but you generalized it so that it sounds like eartraining is bad or just a trick, probably for clickbait reasons. I wouldn't be where I am today if I had not followed solfeggio classes in the early 80's with a teacher that scared the hell out of me but always said I'd get there in the end (I studied classical guitar at conservatory then). To me your opinion sounds a little bit like (no offense intended) a typically snobbish jazz musician's attitude. But hey, that's fine also. Have a nice day!

@ChristiaanvanHemert 7 ай бұрын

Reason is the complete opposite of snobbish actually, but I guess you didn't see the whole video. No problem, I understand I'm in the minority! This short is the condensed version of WHY I'm against it: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/ip6la8uTybbWY5c.html

@p_mouse8676 7 ай бұрын

@@ChristiaanvanHemertI think what he maybe means, is that nuance misses a bit. I am not totally against it. If it works for people, fine sure why not. But that raises a very important question that people forget to answer before they even start this discussion. How useful is it for people in general? There is no data on it now. So the only thing we have now is just a loop of anecdotal ideas, experiments and experiences. Or in other words, they all assume it's useful for most people apparently? Fact is that we only have a limited time to teach and learn things. My take on this, is that just by experience over time you've heard so many things, chords, notes, shapes, licks that you naturally start to recognize them anyway. So in my opinion it kinda defeats its purpose. Since time we can spend is limited, I personally would rather spend that time on other things.

@josdurkstraful 7 ай бұрын

@@ChristiaanvanHemert Aha! You had a bad teacher.... that explains a lot. But..... Jazz is not the only style (duh!) and having sa good ear can help in many fields wher the progressions are maybe a little less obvious. Of course every style has it's own cliché's but for instance in classical music modulations can be very tricky.

@greg_austin 7 ай бұрын

LOL!!

@ChristiaanvanHemert 7 ай бұрын

Glad you enjoyed it!

@bobbykiefer4306 7 ай бұрын

There's many ways to play jazz guitar that's why Django sounds different than Joe Pass. Ear training might be helpful, but there are other approaches.

@ChristiaanvanHemert 7 ай бұрын

Yes, that sounds reasonable!