Hey Theo, thanks for watching my interview with Kurt and providing your thoughts and insight. You made several great points that are important for people to consider as we all move forward in the hobby. Informing the public is the most important thing so thank you for your efforts, which along with mine and those of others, will be a positive thing.

PSA is a scam all on its own, thats the real issue in this hobby. If you cannot determine if the card has been cleaned then what's the difference? Its kind of like free will, we actually most likely do not have free will but it doesnt matter because we all think we do and act accordingly. Its the same concept. If a card is brought back closer to its original condition without any changes to the card then who cares?

Unless you open the pack and then send it off to a grading company then there is always a chance it’s been tampered with. This is even before Kurt’s Card Care came into the market. He just perfected and shared the process with the masses.

Solution is altering, its that simple. Just like the coin business, its call "Cleaned" in the coin world.

Where there’s money involved people will turn a blind eye. The only people I talk to that have issues with this are collectors. We’re the ones who are in it for the cards, not the quick profits. I don’t mind a little dirt & grime on my cards personally. I think I need to start licking them like pepino man to make sure they haven’t been messed with though. I appreciate you sharing this Theo

I must say, this situation has given me pause about buying vintage cards. The not knowing if it has been cleaned is extremely troublesome. Appreciate you putting this video out!

Agree with your thoughts here. To me it seems most "collectors" who side with Kurt do so because they have something to gain. Cleaning then flipping cards for profit seems to be the most prevalent reason. However, it you put them in front of two cards they want for their actual PC with the same grade, same price, one a legit grade with no cleaning done and another that was heavily worked on.. I bet I know which they'd choose 99% of the time.

You made a very good point: not everyone has the same skills and expertise as Kurt. If anything, Kurt should let us know what's in his products, just for the sake of transparency, but I believe we're looking at the future of the hobby right here. I mean, card cleaning has been there for decades, Kurt just made it public and he's showing people how to properly do it. Comic books get cleaned and pressed every day without being considered altered or restored, even the grading companies offer that service, so I think that as soon as it's proved that these products do not damage the cards, card cleaning will become a standard. Many people say they're afraid of what this products could do to their cards in the long run, but there's a lot of cards already rotting inside their slabs due to sun fading and oxidation bc PSA doesn't even bother about using good materials, and suddenly they are so concerned about what could happen to the cards they grade in the future? C'mon that's just hypocrisy at its finest. Also, Kurt just showed a card he cleaned 3 years ago and it's still flawless, so honestly I just don't think his products will damage the cards. Imo most people are upset just bc their 10s will not be so special anymore.

I definitely agree with your take Theo! It’s more of a morality thing for me than anything. I like the fact that vintage cards have a story behind them and have flaws because it shows characters and you wonder where that card has been over the years. I feel like Kurt’s card care is truly altering the cards and it’s kind of like cheating if PSA allegedly can’t detect it. I would compare it to cheating on a test in school. “Well the teacher didn’t see me cheat so it must be okay right?” Just a moral dilemma to me.

The key question us whether soaking that card alters the card on a biochemical level and if so what does that “treatment” do to the long term longevity of the card. Does it weaken the card over time and it make it more likely to damage/disintegrate?

The paradox is this. Collectors always get screwed even though there would be no hobby without us.

Great video and discussion. This is why I used to collect coins. If something is altered, it was labeled as such. The grading companies and detect anything. For some reason, PSA, BGS, SGC are turning a blind eye to the subject like Selig did to roids in the 90s.

Its established that PSA does not care about altered cards. The bright side is there's a market for a grading company that does care. It's only a matter of time before a grading company (currently exiting or not) emerges that can detect altered cards.

Very well put. I also consider this type of cleaning altering as well. In the luxury vintage watch business polishing diminishes value but very detectable. For modern watches, it’s somewhat accepted for show off the “shininess”. My hope is that some 3rd party chemist is able to find a cheap and effective way to detect certain cleaning agents and solvents that were put on cards. This would almost force grading companies to use this within grading. I would buy and use such a tool which would solve cards that were cracked. Until then… I just pray the cards I buy are unaltered. I feel obliged to buy lower graded cards with stains.

Obviously you know soaking isnt new right? It's been around for a VERY long time. I have never done it but I 100% know people have been doing it for 30+ years. So are you done buying cards now because it's being advertised more? I will agree this is a very sensitive subject. The arguement that its altering vs restoring is tough. I can see both sides to a point. I for sure can see the arguement for color adding and trimming. It's just sorta weird that cars, old documents, books, paintings, antiques, etc can all get professionally cleaned and restored with no blink of an eye but a piece of cardboard cant?! No clue what the right answer is. I am curious if there are any long term effects? Great video and discussion. Thanks

What happens if the stain slowly starts coming back in 10 years. Or the card separates after it’s slabbed.

lol this “man” is the most passive-aggressive person I’ve ever heard speak

Great points. You point out ways in which Kurt McBooberson contradicts himself. I wonder if we are taking too much of what he brags about at face value. PSA does have that N7 Evidence of Cleaning non-grading definition. Someone should invite Nat Turner on their show and ask him some actual grading questions like about how many cards they reject based on N7.

Great analysis - certainly the most compelling arguments against cleaning that I've heard. Specifically, the fact that we don't know the long term effects of cleaning, but frankly we don't know the long term effects of being encased in slabs either. One of the most concerning facts is that the grading companies don't seem to want to research how to tell when a card has been cleaned. There has to be ways to identify this with all the technology available today. Thanks for your points.

I am curious if vintage raw cards would pass the smell test? Would Kurts Card care solution remove the smell of the old vintage cards if soaked?

Great perspective and deep thaughts about this unfortunate money grab. I herd stories of stains coming back and color bleaching from soaking. In Kurt's demonstration you can see the change of color of the liquid. There is no way you are telling me that is all dirt. IThat is color Loss. I saw a 59 Topps yellow card soaked when driy it was not as vibrant. How many times can you clean a card? How many people keep the same card? Which will hurt raw card market. Brings up a another question what is exactly chromium? It seems to me it is some type of plastic so my thinking is when you put alcohol, witch hazel, or any other chemical it dries the oil in the plastic making it brittle or messes with the chemistry making it sticky or melt. Example look at old cd's time breaks them down. Chemicals prematurely killing the plastic. In time that will cause separation of the chromium and the cardboard. In which I always questioned the longevity of modern cards. Plastic always breaks down. If there is chemicals in Kurt's it is only going to speed up the process or he is selling expensive water. You're right PSA has made our habby a no choice. Maybe if Kurt was a good guy and worked with a chemist to add an ultraviolet chemical that can be seen with a black light. Instead of being just a garage chemist. Then the grading companies could verify whats been washed. Given the hobby back a choise.

I think that the big question is whether or not a grading company is liable if a stain occurs on a card 5, 10, 20 years after it is graded. I would say yes, since the condition of the card is documented with front and back photos when it is graded.

PSA’s concerns about soaked, cleaned or altered cards are their conditions years in the future. One solution for PSA that could release them of future blame and costs is to label these cards as Authentic and Altered cards, and not grade them from 1 to 10. Some grading card companies are already doing this now. Yes, we’re paying good money to grading companies for our cards, so grading companies should be able to detect questionable cards. If they cannot detect them, kudos to Kurt and the card cleaners today. In the world of antiques and collectibles, old paintings and ‘ what have you ‘ are routinely cleaned and/restored preferably by pros. And Sotheby’s and Christie’s have been auctioning and selling them for years. They’re probably also selling cleaned and restored sports cards, baseball cards and memorabilia. PSA may possibly loose market share also by the outright banning of cleaned cards, while other grading companies are labeling these cards Authentic and/or Altered cards.

Well done, Theo. Bold stand made with integrity.

Certainly an interesting perspective, and I think you make some good points about our lack of control in the topic. If there are actual chemicals being used, I refuse to believe there is zero residue and that we’re stuck. I believe that it’s possible to detect them….or will be at some point.

Do you like spending money on a pack of cards and the cards are damaged in the process of printing, packaging, or shipping? If there is no reversal of a correction or damage in the future due to soaking, then what will you think about it in the future? Damaged cards have been sold in packs since cards were created. Cards have been cleaned since the hobby began. If your card is stained and then graded and slabbed, does the stain get worse inside of the slab? Should it be re-graded to reflect the extra damage it now has? If a grading company gave you a 6 and you resend it and get an 8, which grade is correct? Who decided the grading companies should make ultimate decisions on cards?

Your last point was bang on, just wait until people start cheeping out on kurts juice and think they can make their own. I think no matter what, over time, the worked over cards will come to light. Over the years and seasons of hot and cold, being shuffled along to different card shows and sent through the mail, the juice will start drying out, and the effects of what if fixed or was holding together will start showing. If you kept it climate controlled you would probably be okay, but that's not what is going to happen to 90% of these cards lol... 90% of people who made money during the gold rush, were the ones selling shovels 🤣🤣🤣

If you paint a card or trim a card yeah, different story. I had a 90 Score Will Clark autograph card. I had a sale sticker on the penny sleeve on the card, I wrote $10 in ball point on the sticker. It made an indention on the card plain as day $10. I took a q tip, glasses cleaner, rubbed it on in a circle on both sides of the card, put the card on a flat surface with a penny sleeve on top, took my finger and gently in a circle rubbed round and round on both sides. That $10 indention mark was gone after the solution dried. Card looks as it should have. I see zero wrong with restoring a card as it's NOT altering the card.

If you don't want cleaned cards, just buy ungraded stuff then. Problem solved.

You could always buy a PSA 1 ran over by a truck version of any card you want

Thanks for sharing your thoughts Theo. I would agree with you on a lot of the points you made.

Stop buying. cards and put Kurt out of business!

What pisses me off is as a collector, why am I getting encased flawless cards that are dirty/dinged up? Pisses me off much more that such “high quality” and expensive products come damaged. Soaking is its own deal but to get pissed off about touch ups is ridiculous, dirty/damaged cards will always be available

In coins cleaned is a thing that goes on the label but much different but still very similar to this conversation

His magic juice is mainly distilled water and here’s the deal I’ve known about soaking cards in distilled water since the 80s. Also distilled water will do the exact same thing as Kurt’s spray, imo the spray has something in it so that he has something to sell, pretty hard to justify selling only water for $60 for a few oz. Kurt can’t admit that then he looses his grift. Also means no one will ever be able to detect it and it also means nothing to worry about because soaking cards in distilled water has been done for decades, it just no one was going around and bragging about it on KZfaq. Kurt didn’t invent soaking cards, and the magic happens from the water not whatever is making it smell (my guess is witch hazel) Also I’m sure Kurt enjoys all the free publicity he’s got in the last few days, he’s probably selling more thanks to all the videos than ever before.

I’m in the buy the card not the grade group. I submitted to SGC last week a 1952 bowman Stan Musial and 1950 bowman Bob Feller. Both of them have creases in the card. I doubt they went though this process because the creases are there. My 1948 Bowman Stan Musial has tape on the front. Sure my cards aren’t worth as much, but I own the cards though they are low grade, low eye appeal, etc.

I agree, his products not only alter, but potentially damage cards (we don't know the long term effects of his solution). Its all about the profits! Kurt makes money, flippers make more money, grading companies make more money; all while we get burned. The golden rule in full effect... he who has the gold makes the rules. Maybe earlier slabbed cards (pre-Kurts) will become more valuable over time?? Either way, I agree that this is a big problem for collectors.

I thought counterfeit cards would be the downfall of cards one day as technology increased. Then grading came along and we all felt more secure in buying with the thought they could detect counterfeits. The cleaning especially the soaking has really put the thought of vintage cards that look really nice are just cleaned/soaked.. instead of wow that card looks really nice it must have been taken care of/stored and survived all these years. Unfortunately with soaking and the non ability of graders to identify this being done has hurt imo the vintage hobby unfortunately, I truly wish it didn't it is reality. Thanks for your show today I enjoyed your honesty.

I fall into the pro-Kurt camp. Cleaning is a big part of the comic book hobby as well as fine art collecting. Also, the "card spray" is almost certainly mostly distilled water. So you are just temporarily putting water molecules in between the paper fibers, and then pulling dirt and grime as you press out the water. No chemical or mechanical change to the cardboard occurs

Yeah I don’t want someone cleaning a card only because we don’t yet know the long term effects the cleaning solution will have on the card. I’ve soaked tobacco cards out of scrapbook pages, but those cards were soaked with water only. And I didn’t send them in for grading. They are still in my collection years later. I think if we can establish a date that Kurt’s card care products were introduced to the public then I would start paying closer attention to grading dates and not buy a card after the date Kurt’s Card Care products started being used.

Alright, love your channel! I came back to the hobby over a year ago, and started learning and listening to many. It has been a blessing truely.. I'm not of the mind that people who are buying a product cannot influence it.. Bud light proved that.. If there was a legit movement by people with weight in the hobby AGAINST grading cards until this is fixed.. It would be fixed quickly. The hobby holds so much authority on these companies now... The hobby needs to go back to the people's hands.

Interesting points. You're well in your right to state an opinion. IMHO, I have no issues with restoring a card. As long as the card isn't "Fake" (like some scumbags on specific selling platforms do) then the restored card is great to have in my collection. I don't want to display a card that has an awful crease on it. Your points are well explained and I get your side but I fall into the pro-Kurt camp. I certainly like clean, well cared for non fake cards.

Thank you for talking about this. I’m not entirely knowledgeable about card cleaning, but I agree with all of your points. Thank you for the education.

A lot of the kids are into Kurt Kard Alterations……it’s the dinosaurs like us who oppose the vasoline on cards. When us dinosaurs are gone, then it will be as acceptable as it is with comics. If we are going to allow smearing crap on our cards, then let’s allow everything, like trimming. Why not? Wild Wild West!!!!!

I completely agree with you, Well done

Hi there, Thank you very much for this video. I never have had any interaction with Kurt’s products but it is not for me. Pure and simple it’s altering the cards. But no one is getting hurt, except financially maybe. Best Wishes, Peter

I like to look for the best survivor of a card that I can afford, now it's the case that I could unknowingly be purchasing a restored example, simply not cool.

i think honestly if ur a real collector who fing cares if you want your cards looking better condition people like “you” who are money hungry some people want expensive cards but can’t afford them and it gives the people options to buy expensive cards and restore them for our personal collections

Thank you for your take and I agree 100% with you.

Aside from the moral and ethical issues here my main issue is that I don't know what ingredients are in the product. I would like to see one of the self proclaimed "gatekeepers" of the hobby submit kurt's juice to a Chemist to find out what is in it and if any of these ingredients have the potential to harm cards long term.If Kurt is as open and honest as he claims to be then he should have no objection to this.

i totally agree awesome point

Great point Theo I wouldn’t be surprised if Kurt is looking long term into making the grading companys somehow buy into his product to then provide the cleaning and restoration for a fee similar to what comic grading companies do and then label them appropriately.

If I can resell for more, then yes

Great take, Theo. I appreciate you sharing your thoughts on this topic. Cheers!

The very early certs are still safe

So if I drop bbq sauce on a card you would rather have it with the bbq sauce on it rather than clean it of with a napkin…wild. Or a 69 Camaro, if I go outside and wipe the the dirt off of it then it’s considered an altered car..also wild to me

great podcast and great points. Im not for Kurts card care or against it, I just want the cleaner higher graded card that the so called "professionals" deem authentic and unaltered. Do you love the cards on your wall behind you even though you think a few may have been cleaned? Im sure when you look at them they make you happy,,,,, so just keep looking at them, they look great even if they're cleaned.

In the comic book world its encouraged to be clean

I agree with you. This is potentially a huge problem for the hobby. If in the future cards start developing stains from these chemicals, it could totally derail the hobby. Imagine if valuable cards that have been graded start developing stains in a few years from these methods. Will collectors spend hundreds or thousands on cards that might be compromised? The answer is no. The integrity of the card market will be irreparably harmed. Who is going to trust that high grade vintage cards haven't been altered? Who's going to spend thousands or tens of thousands on high grade Mantle, Clemente, Aaron, etc. rookie cards when they might develop stains or other problems? This is bad for the hobby. You have to be short sighted or just in it to make a fast buck to think otherwise.

Jeff ruined the hobby I love. Kurt pooped all over it

I enjoyed the video. Great thoughts.

I want panini to have better quality control and stop selling us all these cards with defects at least improve.

I am….unconcerned.

Don't overthink it and let it ruin the hobby and collection you have and love. Just like cheating in sports, card altering has always been around and always will be. It's inevitable. We pay the pros at SGC to be pros and they know the red flags to look for, especially in vintage. Two graders at least usually look at each card also from what I'm told. Those grades are official, bro. Once that slab and flip are in place, it's official. Only other option would be just to buy all "A"'s from now on and call it even. I don't mean that negatively at all, I mean that from the heart. If you truly are convinced they are all altered, it's a legit and extremely affordable option. Another thing about SGC is when they do make mistakes, (we are all human after all) they own it publicly. I personally am not even convinced it does anything but damage cards. I watch the videos out of curiosity and I'm nowhere near sold. I don't see any real scratch removal even. Pressing down corners, straws, soaking, meh. It's all going on forever and SGC sees it, we're good. I imagine they take note of cards smelling like Nu Finish as well haha! For the record, I don't truly care much either way about Kurt's Card crap but I'd lean against it. Just for the honesty aspect of it all. I believe in a micro fiber cloth and my breath. I suggest practicing the heavy breathing method alone, however haha... But it truly even does work on old Topps Chrome "grime". But that's not doctoring, that's simply removing fingerprints and/or oxidation. Varnish, essentially. But that's also exclusively on modern-ultra modern as well! I personally think Kurt's Kard does more damage to cards than good and honestly believe it's 100% a waste of money. But now he has a cult following and it's made headlines. I'm willing to bet it's nothing more than store bought product, R/O water at best and just repackaged with a sticker-making label using bulk spray bottles, lines of yards worth of aquarium tubing (straws), and some sort of wax all packaged using wholesale aftermarket spray bottles and jars. My niece has a label maker for her little jewelry side hustle and she prints out her own custom logos, price tags and other stickers. She's 11 years old. I think he's pulled a fast one on everybody and is laughing all the way to Paypal. My honest opinion.

A blacklight is all it takes to see alterations. PSA obviously doesn't care that your card was soaked. All that matters is that they're still getting business and making money. Don't hate the player, hate the game.

Is Kurt’s Card Care hurting your hobby and mine or PSAs grading inconsistency, fees, and those that are graded tend to devalue raw cards? I say the latter all day! Value in eye of beholder..

Kurt's voice went up. "When it's time to change....... " I don't mind cleaning wax so my auto will take and I've remove extra paper to read the back. None of these are hurting anything.

Agree completely Theo, thank you for sharing your thoughts. It’s about the money, Kurt sells kits, buyers clean cards for higher grades/ profits, PSA higher grades means more upcharge profits for them. The collectors pay the price.

Literally couldn’t care less if a card has been cleaned as long as nobody can tell.

I love Kurt's card care ,when you sell your car do you clean it before you sell it 🤔

Here's the thing: maybe they can't tell because maybe the solution is just water. If a card gets wet from your spit or rain what's the difference? If the card grades good, who cares? Enjoy. Odds are any cards from 60s or earlier has been altered or cleaned in some way. You could "alter" a card by smoothing out the corners with your fingers. Nothing is perfect.

If a tree falls in the forest does it make a sound???????????????

This hobby is about filliping now, not many people "collect". I don' agree with soaking but cleaning should be done, I open packs that have panini lint and dust on them. Can't just send them in for grading without cleaning.

Theo, I think Kurt’s first answer about whether his work is detectible is a dodge. Kurt’s work is detectable and he knows his work is detectable, but he doesn’t want to admit it because it would not be good for business. He explained how he himself can tell a card has been restored before finally landing on “I don’t think so” . And if Kurt can detect it, PSA etc can detect it and label it. And if that happened Kurt’s business might dry up.

"I don't want clean cards" @7:16 mark....... WHO SAYS THAT!!!????? What collector has ever said I want to collect dirty, roughed up, creased soft round corners and lots of dents in my cards. "At least my cards don't have Kurts Card Care cleaning solution on them"........said no collector ever......Cmon Man seriously your making videos complaing about random dudes sitting in there basements improving their collectibles? Wow!!!!!

Great video, although I think it's best to pick the fights you know you have a chance of winning. This has been going on for the 35 years I have been in the hobby, Kurt is nothing new, just the guy who went public. You will never know if your cards have been soaked or fixed for the most part. I don't agree with it but you can't fight a ghost. Its great content tho.

I feel bad for being that guy, but the 1000s of people buying Kurt's goo are probably ruining a majority of the cards they are trying to fix... at least I secretly hope so.

People bash for this then I hear the same people saying they use their spit and a cloth to clean. What is the difference lol spit or a water solution. Can argue using spit is worse, I just use a cloth to wipe down but I don’t see the big deal. I don’t think soaking a card can be good long term but who knows. I would never do that. Unless it ruins the card then there’s no issue. I have no sides in this I could care less either way

Absolutely, kurts card care is bad for the hobby. However, he makes money off the greedy, slimy side of the hobby....which means he's doing well

On the bright side there a probably tons of cards in your collections that could get a serious grade bump should you chose to restore them.

Before Kurt's card care there's been other guys who have been cleaning it with other ingredients that is one KZfaqr who cleans it with furniture polish

I really enjoyed your insights. I’d love to talk more on this with you. I have mixed feelings. I feel you but logically this toothpaste isn’t going back. Question. And please don’t take this personally, just an example. If your Mother of your kids and love of your life was in a gang bang movie in college, would you want your know? Your card might have been soaked in 1980s. This isn’t new.

I'll just never understand why people care. If you literally have "no idea", then why does it matter? Trimming is one thing, because you're altering the physical specs of the card. Coloring is one thing because it's 100% noticeable with very minor scrutiny. But removing stains or general grime in a manner that doesn't alter the physical properties of the card... I just don't see how that is a negative thing. Like someone else mentioned, this isn't a new thing. People have been doing this stuff for 30-50 years already. If there were going to be adverse effects, we would have seen them by now.

I had become a regular viewer of Jeremy over the last year or so, but on Saturday night I unsubscribed and I'm done with him. Giving a microphone to this scam artist Kurt is really unforgivable. There's no "explanation" that's ever going to make it acceptable to soak vintage cards in distilled water or chemicals or whatever this guy uses to "clean" them. Its 100% unacceptable alteration and giving this guy even the time of day is detrimental to the hobby.

Ignorance is bliss. I don’t necessarily agree with Kurt’s Card Care but I think everybody is making way too big of a deal about it. There are a lot of shady things happening in this hobby but the more you focus on it the more you are going to dislike the hobby and be turned away. Just buy what you like and stop focusing on the what ifs….

You're talking like Krt's Card Care is the first person to ever alter/clean cards. This has been done for a very long time

No issue at all you won't Even know it was used on your cards. Stop crying

Team Kurt!