Totally true, but there's a big difference between a self taught engineer who learned because he saw a video and the lifestyle looked cool, and other engineer who was self taught but because he used linux since high school, they're not the same

Boot camp dev here who previously worked in faang's, 7 years in industry now. I've out performed CS grads for a couple reason: - Interpersonal advantage due to managing restaurants. Engineers often hate communicating, being willing to lean into coordination and communication is a highly leveraged skill. - Grinding out self study for hours on end feels good compared the alternative of working 70 hours a week of physical labor. Natural hunger from years of non competitive salary jobs instill a natural hunger that is almost impossible to compete with. - As others have said, coding is the easiest part of the job as you grow in seniority. Previous real life experience allows non cs grads to really shine in the 'non-coding' aspects of the job. Great video.

I've been working as a software engineers for 20+ years. Over the years, I've been lucky enough to work with a few exceptional engineers. The top 3 I know did not have CS degree. One has a MS in chemistry, one dropped out sophmore year to work full time the third dropped out of CS to work. If I include famous developers I follow, half have CS degree. The common traits for the top engineers I know: love to learn, passion for the subject matter and doesn't have a bloated ego.

It's been a mixed bag from personal experience and really depends on the individual rather than their pathway. Though I will say, some of the most knowledgeable devs I've known went the CS route. Especially the ones who are able to explain the 'whys' rather than just the 'hows'. Particularly useful when dealing with very complex non-standard problems. This is something I've personally never seen a bootcamp dev be able to do. Some of them do tend to pump out work faster though. Going back to the original point, I've seen good and bad devs from both sides overall.

These people are natural developers and something like bootcamp showed them what they are capable of. Nobody should think completing some program will make you a rockstar developer smoking something.

It's often the difference between coders vs problem solvers. Being able to code is the easiest part of the job.

I can only share with everyone that effort counts. For example, I applied as an Android Developer because I already had knowledge in that area and wanted to build upon it. However, during the interview, it became clear that they weren't looking for someone in that role, but rather someone skilled in web development with Javascript. I was so impressed by their kindness and felt so comfortable among the people that I decided to dive into a completely new area. For me, it was absolutely worth it because it's only within a good team and with strong self-initiative that one learns a lot.

Survivorship bias js. The one's who do succeed are going to be better than usual as well. This isn't saying you can't be good with those things, but if you take the same person and give them a formal CS education, I think they would be even better. Don't let it stop you if you want to become a programmer though.

I really appreciate the video you created. Your explanation was clear, and I'm grateful for your insights into the three points you mentioned earlier. Additionally, thank you for helping me resolve the dilemma I was facing.

Some non CS majors switch from a non-software to software job within the same industry. Such as lab or hardware work to software development so they know a lot about the software needed. They often start switching because they need software for a project and they can’t get software developer time.

I love your insight! I think this is survivorship bias, however. In my 15 years, I also know amazing self taught devs. But I think they stand out because of their history. The vast majority of amazing devs I know do have a CS degree. Self taught and boot camp can nurture the insane grit and endless drive to get better, but it’s definitely not normal from my experience. (NOTE: I wrote this comment before watching every minute. I added another comment in the replies)

I learned Pascal to solve my math homework with. Then I learned about drawing pixels with code and made local multiplayer versus games to play with friends. Then I realized I needed some kind of job and went for programmer. I can imagine someone starting with "hey, programmers make good money!" but that will likely not work that well without intrinsic motivation.

im a self taught dev. the "expecting to get a job when ur done with college" applies to bootcamp grads as well. that's the entire point of the bootcamp. you go through and you say to yourself "ok im job ready" and if it doesn't work out some people have the surprised pikachu face and can't move forward. i agree with the comments where it really depends on the person. there are people that learn hello world and have their hands out waiting for someone to give them a job, and there are people who apply themselves and learn because they like the field.

I personally don't do well in standardized learning environments so college was and still is something I won't do because I know it doesn't do anything for me. So I went down the self learning and work experience route and have advanced at a very quick pace thus far. Everyone learns differently and great minds come out of both sides.

I think one of the biggest things that isn't mentioned here is humility. Even if you are getting a CS degree. Our field is so big and there is so much domain specific knowledge in any given tech stack / industry / company that lacking the humility to say "I don't know this specific thing, will you reach me about it?" will prevent you from excelling as an SE: even (and maybe especially) if you're in the first group. Group 1's with the humility to ask for instruction and a whole other level because they ask to be taught and get it immediately, and the "time to value" that they can deliver on that new info is super small.

I've wanted to learn programming for years. I spent several months learning Java script in high school(almost a decade ago) but it just didn't stick. The free course i was doing was difficult and poorly explained so I just gave up. Eventually after many years of teaching English(which just happened as I live abroad) I realized I needed to find something I really wanted to do and actually put in the time and money. Free courses are better now but paid stuff is best. I want to be a programmer because I'm passionate about tech and love problem solving and finding new solutions. So I am willing to persevere until I get a job I want.

What a great vid!

I appreciate everything of old school. Only myself, we would use Unix BSD with Fortran, Ada, C languages without any database engines, only data structures et binary files with a highly documented environment and a lot of rapports. I prefer doing algorithms analysis and formal methods. Don't need remote work job, only a seat with a computer keyboard and a timer. You give your report and documentation, receive authorization to implement and get out at the exact time you are supposed to achieve the job. No cheat possible, no stole of data possible, and any policies between colleges. You prepare your meeting because this is similar to a math exam without any social, only the time for the project.

True, a wall st company I worked for took Ivy League English Majors, 2 weeks of training, and they were doing work. Great devs, and they were very good at looking things up. No leetcode bullshit. 90% of companies do not need that. In 5 years they were in management.

"they knew it was going to be a grind" - my experience has been the opposite, in a way: I do everything in my power to *avoid* letting coding/learning feel like a grind. As a non-CS degree professional software engineer, the only reason I've been able to succeed is because I actually really like coding, and the most important thing I do for my career (every day) is to actively try to fuel that interest/love by working on projects that interest and excite me. I'm terrible at forcing myself to learn something I'm not interested in or excited about, but I'm pretty good at finding ways to spark my own interest in subjects that would be useful to learn.

I have a software engineer job with economics degrees, meanwhile my friends with CS bachelor's can't even get a job. Well, because university alone doesn't mean anything if you don't have the knowledge.

Small companies need devs but don't know how to hire them or what they are looking for (not talking about startups that can't pay the bills). At least this was my experience in the Midwest US. I constantly read anecdotes from aspiring engineers swinging for the fences with the faangs of the world and cannot imagine I would have ever had success if I went this route. Great opportunities exist for new developers but might be disguised or viewed as less sexy. If it wasn't for small companies I'd still be working in supply chain and operations and making 1/3rd my current compensation.

I don't even have a degree of any kind. I've worked in tech literally since I was 16 (I'm 44 now), did a bunch of contracts in a bunch of different areas like networking, PC / Server support. I moved into software development when I was around 23 so that's now 21 years. Am run a team of developers writing PR software with a salary in the top 3%. The degree 'requirement' is not just misleading - it's an actual scam.

Maybe for the average, low-tier grunt positions. The best programmers I've known usually have a master's in CS or something similar like math.

This is because if you make it learning by yourself to be self employed it means you have to be really good.

From my experience, CS majors were the best coders in my 6 years in big tech (Google). The boring answer is usually the correct, as the “fun” answer usually involves mental gymnastics. Almost always, whenever someone claims something like in this video, they work in a non-engineering company, where the engineering culture is secondary (ie: bank or something in finance)

Passion > going in school doing something just for money

Comouter engineering degree here....hardest 6 years if my life lol but im glad i learned hiw to grind and overcome in college!

I started with self-study as a child, when I learned about CS, I self-studied CS. You can self-study CS, you don't have to sign up for a course to read a book and learn some data structures, algorithms, and hardcore CS theory. Unfortunately, if you come out of a boot camp not understanding algorithms, data structures, and other CS concepts, then you're going to be limited in your ability as a software engineer. Those limits may not show up in some roles, immediately, but those limits will persist until you learn what you are missing. Thankfully, that knowledge is in a book. It's not locked behind a tuition paywall. Regardless, college is still valuable and if you can afford it then I would recommend it for most people. The social network you develop there is the most valuable part. Just remember that there are many ways to do anything, so long as you include all of the ingredients.

Im a bootcamp grad and im not saying I’m the best, but I’ve been a top performer at 2 companies so far. I dont work extra hours or anything. I just think bootcamps involve more coding then traditional CS degrees so we have an advantage when it comes to practical application, which is about 80% of the work. System design, networking, and operating systems are areas where CS graduates shine. If i could start over, i would get a CS degree.

I think not having a CS degree is just making people insecure. I’ve also met a lot more bad developers making easy mistakes that haven’t gone through a CS program, the coping is real.

Doing a bootcamp and currently pursuing my CS degree, I feel like I know more than most of my classmates. I try to also self study quite a bit using linkdlen learning, udemy, and youTube. Can't forget about my mentor ChadGPT I hope all this makes me a bit more competative when enterning the job market.

It's really interesting to watch your videos. It reminds me, I'm just getting old. I don't fit it any of your groups.

I’m self taught. Coding is kind of fun but it’s still a job so I can’t be that passionate about it. I’m lazy and I wanted a job that would get me the most amount of money for the least amount of effort. That’s what I got in the end. I’m likeable, not arrogant and always looking for help improving. I think that goes pretty far in getting and keeping jobs.

I'm pretty sure my long, thought-out comment got deleted, but I'm not sure why I don't want to try to remember everything I typed, so I'll just reiterate the main points. I've actually done both, having 2 CS degrees and went to a full stack bootcamp. I often noticed that devs who come out of bootcamps or are self-taught tend to be frontend where the theory of computer science doesn't always apply or present itself, which can kinda make a CS degree moot. I've simultaneously noticed that those frontend devs often avoid compiled languages like C++ and Go and all costs, which is actually where CS degrees really excel. People who do "full stack" often specialize in either frontend or backend, and it's actually really rare to find anybody who does both well. I was wondering what types are the people you worked with. Were they frontend or backend? Both? Did they tend to specialize?

All I have to do is get my foot in the door . I already have the tenacity for the work . I study for at least 8 hours there are days where I did 12 hours or even stayed up and broke day studying

The one's at the top outperform everyone else, whether they have a college degree or not.

From where do u get these titles, from gut?

I guess It really depends… If you look at web dev that might be the case, but if you look at say kernel development, I doubt you’ll have the same conclusion.

I think in some ways self study people were some great software engineers but these two people were already incredibly smart and their parents are computer science professors. In my experience the best engineers I have met have degrees in computer science and even phds. But I also don’t do web development but instead distributed systems. All of the people in my team have or had a computer science degree while the other people that worked on the web dev side had a few people without a degree. So i don’t necessarily agree only because the self taught people that made it were one in million and they were comparable to a very good programmer with a cs degree.

I hope your channel has 1 million subscribers

You are a magnificent person.

0:28 "Successful" self-taught people are super rare. They are motivated. Because they lack degrees, recruiters reject most of them, except the few that have a proof of competence. Therefore, you are faced with a population that is skilled not by the mean, but because of selection. TL;DR: Most self-taught are shit, but the few ones that are hired, they are hired thanks to undeniable proof of excellence and an injustly harsh selection.

Why companies ask for cs major

well, you worked at start-ups, right? usually, the top graduates from top schools get hired at big companies (we're talking FAANG) before even graduation, so if you're comparing mediocre CS graduates to passionate, self-taught, highly intelligent SWEs, of course, this is what you see. also, your sample size is only 10. top graduates from top schools will probably do better because they have IQs that match or surpass the self-taught SWEs AND they have formal training, as well as the grit that got them into and through these programs.

Just comes down to how hard you have learnt to work, I went through a brutal college programme and can easily do 60+ hrs a week of corporate development work.

Huh? Never met a competent bootcamp graduate (or any self-taught engineer who does not have a STEM degree, a top-notch humanities degree or at least was a university dropout). Not once in my over 30 years career.

As you hint at in your video, the one consistent attribute of top devs - and also top management and Cxx staff is ... raw IQ. Sure, you need drive, experience, creativity, stamina etc too .. but without being very bright I doubt you be in the top 10% or 1%.

Yeah I’m a career changer from medical

Im a CS major graduate. It's useless, there's too much general info and BS you will never use on the job, and not enough of what you NEED TO KNOW for the job. All theoretical BS. Not worth the 4 years and not worth all the money.

Non-CS grads and self studies sure. But bootcampers? lol no

Easy. CSE love the problem. Non CSE want the outcome

CS degree sucks now. I have one. Everytime I see video like this it makes me quite sad. Luckily I got it for cheap moneywise, but it took me 5 years to graduate. 😢

A piece of paper doesn't tell anyone that you know how to do the job. It means you did what you were told which was rewarded with a piece of paper. If you have a piece of paper and don't actually do the coding, why should you get the job.

Some people are too smart for college.

Im exactly in this situation. I've been self taught all these years and recently finished a 15k bootcamp thinking they would get me past HR, but this job market has been brutal. Im 30 y.o this year but i know for a fact id make a great software engineer. Its just none of these HR reps even give me a chance in this saturated market except for Tiktok, but their interviews were fcking impossible. I dont have 4+ years of grinding DSA but I know a decent amount. If anyone knows of anyone willing to take a chance on a talented non CS grad please let me know.

I would caution against being too productive like the people who take initiative in fixing bugs without being asked (to what? kiss your boss' feet?) bc often if not usually, it works against you. Oh, 3 years of dev time was budgeted to get through this big backlog and you went above and beyond and did it in 1 year? Well here's your standard bonus, no higher than normal, but you know what, we are expecting hard times this upcoming year and since this backlog is done we need to divert your team's budgeting elsewhere. Sorry fam but it's the economy 🥺 you understand, here's one month pay and you get to continue to pay the group rate for your healthcare for a few months - not bad right?! You should be grateful. Good luck! 0 mercy even if your child is dying of cancer. I wish more people adopted a culture of human dignity instead of working themselves to death to outcompete each other

I understood C pointers immediately. Something I don't get why other people don't. People complain that I miss messages and email. I am not a slave to beeps and boops. I'm the type of programmer who just gets things done without perfection. I have never failed to solve a problem with at least an acceptable workaround. But I constantly feel stupid. I notice however that programmers have different talents. There is so much to know, every day is a challenge. Genius programmers at Python are literal morons with C++ and vice versa. So experience with your tools and language are the most important skills.

The universities are teaching loads of irrelevant stuff. Self learners are self motivated, self financing largely and learn the relevant stuff, not an entire course on implementing linked lists with Java.

Sorry this is just not true. My company sent me to a boot camp and transitioned me into a software engineer role. I work my ass off, but so do most of my coworkers. I’d say my company is in the tier below FAANG. My coworkers have either come from or gone to Uber, Google, Apple, Meta, Adobe, Duolingo, Microsoft, Amazon, MasterClass, and a range of other companies. Almost all of the best engineers have CS degrees. I know maybe 2 of the best that don’t. And those people have just been into programming since they were kids. It’s a fallacy to think non CS degree recipients have some kind of monopoly on hard work and grit.

I think that in the video you showed your point of view .. you get your degree easily, what about other students in other universities? Give you some numbers we started the first year of CS in more than 200 students, 15 students graduated in time, then 13 students of the 15 started the Master .. the class had in total 66 students, 5 students graduated in time and everyone belongs to the first group of 13 .. I was one of them.. to graduate successfully in my university you need to have all the characteristics that you described: a bit smart, organized and displined . There were useless courses but in the end of the day they teached you something. Why? Because everything was hands on, pratical exams, projects, assignment. After 3/4/5 years the gap between someone with a degree in a good university and someone that dedicated for 6 months is huge. Not only did the former spend more time and therefore have an advantage, but they also saw a variety of topics that they could not have seen on their own. For example, Machine Learning, a person really wants to understand it, they have to study the mathematics behind it. It's one thing to do it on your own, you see it's complicated and you quit. It's one thing to do it in a university course, you can't drop it otherwise you won't graduate. You can say the cost of universities is higher than a bootcamps. True if you re in the US, in Europe is free .. The financial companies that pay the most who are looking for? e.g. TwoSigma, Hudson River, Jane street ... Even simply successful startups like SNOWFLAKES.. Who built ChatGpt? Bootcamps software engineers? If you want to change country, is easier to get a visa with a bachelor's/master's degree or a bootcamp?

I'm a rust engineer with 3 years of experience in cryptocurrency, and I am so done with it. I would take a TC cut if i could work for a company where I can see that my work is materially benefiting working people, instead of making some rich kid's silver spoon bigger

I have to disagree. You're talking like self taught programmers and boot-camp graduates were better on average than CS majors, which is not the case. People forget that the computer science major is very selective, a lot of people that become cs major doesn't even graduate. I'm not saying that self taught programmers are dumb, but it's a really biased opinion to say that just because you didn't followed the classical path, it's mean that you're automatically smarter.

Video is too long and doesnt focus on title 👎🏼

This is FALSE! NOT TRUE! I have 10+ years in this industry as software engineer. If you want to be a code monkey and do procedural work that doesn't change much (like maintenance) then sure you can do it without a cs degree. If you really want to work on projects where you apply your skillsets for complex stories etc, then you will need to rely heavily on theory. Especially, if you want to be a full stack developer you will rely on your theoretical understanding when switching between tech stack.

4 years of study from a well reputed university vs 4 months of online bootcamp!? Come on, give me a break. You remember what happened to the guard worker that tried to copy Walter White just by watching him in Breaking Bad? Reminds me of that. LMAO.

My opinion is the opposite. They overwork, but still sub-par when the complexity increases.

Good video, but I don't like the massive clickbait. It's still a fact that the large majority of the best software engineers are CS/EE graduates, so no, the top 1% of software engineers aren't non-CS majors.

Nah it’s cause the top %s are all engineers and not cs majors 😂

Honestly this makes me laugh. My dad's a CS grad, has the worst social skills I've ever seen. Meanwhile the only reason I'm not working as a dev is lack of time to practice. But you know what I do have? Soft skills. I can talk to people. I'm open to change. I'll be fine once I finally start looking.

0:03 stopped watching after that series of facial expressions

Unpopular and hated opinion; TL;DR Stop shaming on CS Majors. As if they are not good. CS Major or not people can be good at programming / software engineering. And can also be a good teammate. YOU are so BIAS and quite HYPOCRITE on those opinions. I know you have an opinion, but let me tell you something. 1.) The first and foremost being *Acknowledge* is the biggest gift anyone can get in this industry. You can do all sorts of things but if no one wants you, it is nothing. People don't know how important this is. 2.) Do you think all people who wants to be a Software Engineer or Programmer just in for the money? I don't even ask. Or if I ask, I'll just ask which is enough for me. If I can live at 80K (net) then it is 80k 40K? then it's 40. LOL 100K 300K as if I need those. I like more when my work gives satisfaction for me and my career. 3.) Are you saying all CS Majors you worked with are bad? If that's the case are you sure it is because they are CS Majors. Or is it something else? (Unless CS Majors in your area is declining). 4.) Oh boy Bootcamps if you see a good bootcamp you are either in heaven or lottery winner. Since most bootcamps are shit. Management who can't answer question. But then if you try doing your best. Or initiative of your own. They would abandon you. What? Doesn't poster healthy social interaction. Etc etc. 5.) Tech Influencers bias on CS Majors? (if anyone didn't notice it is becoming a dangerous trend) Do you guys hate CS Majors? OR Did you get paid?, to promote this notion? I mean why not just left their education status or level alone? It is like you guys are shaming people's education. In fact there's almost no career today who are being shamed than CS Majors. This is embarrassing when it doesn't need to. CS Major or not don't mind it. Mind what they can bring on the table.

Sounds like survivorship bias to me. But this is all just "hurr durr higher edumacation is a waste of time" content for the algo anyways. So first non-STEM majors were worthless and now STEM majors are worthless? Show me all of the self taught professional engineers working for NASA.

Manny SWE think different buddy

I have to disagree with this.

I don't hire "CS majors" for my team. There's something about the University/College process that completely destroys creativity. Every time, they've been dead weight and had to let them go a few months later.