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My wife watched me play this. By that I mean kept asking me to play it so she can watch the story. We still quote parts of it to each other to this day

I cant help but be amused by the final joke about Warrior Within being edgy with a MCR reference, and then the episode ends with the usual musical sting that sounds exactly *like* it came from the warrior within soundtrack.

Totally with you on this one. One of my biggest issues with games, and honestly all multimedia, is that they treat a romantic relationship as an end goal to be achieved as opposed to the start of two people really learning one another on a deeper level. And it's funny because IMO you can tell way more interesting stories with a couple going through ups & downs than the tired old "will they, won't they" trope we've seen 1000 times.

Romance seems like something that is simultaneously very hard to get right, while the bar for romance is extremely low for people that are looking for it specifically.

as someone who's religiously listened to Let's Drown Out for the last 15 years, it's always intriguing to see topics discussed in that series being brought to Extra Punctuation

The Sly Cooper Trilogy is a genuinely good example of video game romance done right, Sly and Carmelita actually do hit all of yahztee’s criteria, despite nothing about the game’s presentation giving the impression that there’s genuinely compelling stuff running through the game’s writing.

I’m really glad you mentioned this. I remember as a kid how much the original PoP made me feel nostalgic and heavy when it ended, and this is why. It had characters that I finally cared about more than “they punch good”

The descent into the baths is still one of my favorite scenes and bits of dialogue in gaming ever. As you climb down and perform what could be a deadly fall if one were to make a mistake, the Prince's mind is completely somewhere else, thinking about Farah and complaining about everything he finds annoying in her, eventually talking himself into realizing and accepting he's actually in love with her. That bit does so much character development with a monologue and some platforming gameplay. So good!

What I think is funny is that Warcraft tries to have tons of romance but literally all of them fall flat because they're romance always boils down to "they were standing near each other during that one patch" or "they appeared in the same novel".

I _think_ there was romance in Warrior Within, if the Dahaka's feverish obsession with merging your body mass with its own counts.

The best gaming romance is my Yahtzee/Sonic fanfic.

As a person living in Casablanca who loves Prince of Persia, the first 23 seconds and thumbnail of this vid really threw me for a loop

Early 00s culture was either gritty or overly salacious with little in between. I think The Prince probably found a time machine to the future, picked up some Marilyn Manson CDs and some black hair dye, then travelled back to the past. My Chemical Romance weren't widely known in 2004 in my perspective, so Manson seems like the greater inspirer for the emo Warrior Within look.

There is always time for more Sands of Time praise. It was an absolutely great game!

I fell like this is why the favorite romance partners in ME 2 are the two people that weren't love interests in ME 1 but were squad members.

"romance happening cause they were near each other" is my whole dating profile strategy

I like how Yahtzee doesn't mention forgotten sands like at all :D. Treatment it properly deserved.

The only game I’ve played where the romance feels real-ish is in Metro Exodus, with Ana. It is shown through what they do with each other/in each others company, not always just what they say to each other.

The romance between Mona and Plague Knight in Shovel Knight is completely underrated and the ending of them dancing together is one of my favourite videogame moments ever.

The PoP trilogy is the most nostalgic video game series from my childhood, but it doesn't seem to be discussed or remembered as widely as a lot of other series from the time. Which is a shame because I think it deserves to be one of those franchises that's highly regarded/discussed for the innovations it made. Especially Sands of Time. So it's always great to see retrospective videos like this.

holy, your criteria for the perfect romance is literally the entire plot for trails in the sky first chapter you will LOVE this game if you tried it

I found the romance in Prince of Persia (2008) also very enjoyable and rather endearing. Though admittedly, the characters didn't really grow nor overcome their flaws... But the complication part (that is, the whole ending) was excellent!

I literally just finished replaying The Sands of Time before I saw this come up.

My favorite romance is The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt method. There are two, well-established characters with backstory, that Geralt can romance. The player is given the choice and chance to romance either one of them, splitting the player base on which one is his true love, and the option to try and fail to romance them both or to decline either of their affections is there. I love a game that lets opt out.

Ok, but I actually have a huge soft spot for Warrior Within. I was 18 or 19 when I played it, I was incredibly angsty, I was into nu metal, and I had just left a repressive religious upbringing. Also... I thought the chase sequences with the Dahaka were fun, the MetroidVania puzzle mechanics were great, and unlocking the water sword and the secret final ending was pretty cool. ... But the two women in the game were comically endowed, scantily dressed, and had no other discernible traits.

I tend to agree with Yahtzee's idea that video game don't do Romance, but I don't think it stops there. I would argue that most media in general don't do Romance but instead focus their attention on the Love Stories. Take the mindset that media is meant to be primarily escapism for a moment. A story about falling in love and the grand sweeping emotions associated within is much more appealing than a story where the falling in love and grand emotions has already happened and now all that remains is the maintenance of the relationship. It's what gets our imaginations firing, picturing ourselves, or someone else perhaps, in such a scenario. Contrast to (relative) mundanity of actually maintaining a relationship. It's something that a lot of us deal with every day, and unless we deliberately choose to engage with media that simulates real life, it's much easier to gravitate towards what is more enthralling.

What a well researched video! Thank you for this great perspective, resonated well with me

Thanks Matt! Great edit!

As far as fixed romance narratives in games, my favourite would have to be Ike and Elincia from Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance. He's a socially awkward and extremely blunt rookie mercenary and she's an overly-courteous fallen princess, but what's particularly interesting is that their character arcs parallel each other and they grow together through their support for one another: Both of them suddenly lose their parents to the war and are thrust into leadership positions they were not ready for: Ike having to take over his dad's mercenary company, and Elincia having to lead despite never having been the heir to the throne. They are both supportive of one another and help each other grow, and they have extremely good chemistry: one of my favourite moments in the game occurs when Elincia is pleading with a neighbouring empire for aid, the empress essentially belittles Elincia's situation for her own amusement, and Ike furiously stands up for Elincia and demands that the empress, who could easily have Ike executed for raising his voice at her, apologize to Elincia, with Elincia herself noticing that that's the first time Ike has referred to her as "Elincia", and not "Princess". Their whole dynamic is extremely heartwarming and well-written. Imagine my surprise when I found out that the romance is exclusive to the North American localization of Path of Radiance: in the original Japanese version, there is no romance and they have about the same chemistry as two planks of wood, and then the sequel, Radiant Dawn, has Elincia marry her foster-brother completely out of nowhere.

So the problem I think Yathz has with Persona romance is that the protag is a blank slate and it's not integral to the plot(you can very well not romance anyone and it's the same story). Because I honestly think the girls are all quite well fleshed out with their ups-and-downs and character arcs.

Couldn’t agree more. That’s why I like games where the main characters are married. It’s just something you se very little of. We’ve been seeing more of it lately. Maybe it’s a sign of the medium maturing.

Bioware romances are easy to poke fun at, and a lot of them have fallen under the joke about how everyone is leaping to have sex with you after three or four conversations. But I'll die on the hill that Shepard and Tali's romance was worth writing home about. I like how there is no romance between them in the first game, allowing an actual friendship to form first before anything goes further. And I like how there's this overhanging question regarding whether it's even safe for her to pursue a physical relationship due to her weak immune system and whether it's selfish to seek out that moment of connection during such a critical time in their lives. It's played alongside how her usual mindset is this almost self destructive loyalty to her people, and how Quarians are expected to live and die for the sake of the collective due to their harsh living conditions rather than seeking out individual happiness. Shepard himself isn't exactly a beacon of charisma by comparison, but I still think there's enough to work with regarding his potential doubts about the future that he isn't a totally blank slate. (well, some of the time anyway)

Another time travel game/anime steins gate perfects. This to a masterpiece level

Best love story is that of The Witcher. It has every element mentioned plus lots more, including a song, antagonists (Yennefer or Triss), closure (Blood and Wine) and of course a 🦄

Trails in the Sky have my favorite romance plot with its main characters: Estelle and Joshua. They both are great characters on their own, and they are both flawed in a way that each one complements the other: Estelle is energetic and warm, but she's also naive and not really sharp. Meanwhile, Joshua is highly competent and intelligent at the cost of being somewhat cold and uncaring. Their chemistry revolves around them going from being mere childhood friends to Joshua finally being able to open up about his past and both deciding to keep moving forward, and the romance is integral to the plot to such degree that the event that starts the second game is a pivotal point on the relationship.

For the record, the writer for Prince of Persia: Sands of Time was Jordan Mechner, who was also created and designed the original 1989 Prince of Persia. He was also the screenwriter on the 2010 Prince of Persia movie, which wasn't exactly received well at the time, if I recall.

I was curious what my favorite game romance was, but looking back, a lot of games I play are RPG's where you choose your partner, which is more of a favorite waifu/husbando than an actual romance. So I guess my favorite actual romance is Titus and Yuna from FFX. Sure, they get together pretty easy, but then we get some time with them in love, and the tragedy that one of them will die no matter how they decide to end things adds an interesting dramatic wrinkle.

Wow! Yahtzee, you make a good point of Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time being a romance story. You also remind me of when I watch the making of the game on "How It's Made". And the words from the Prince: "Just call me... Kakolookiyam." Also, you made Prince of Persia: Warrior Within a pretty good thing in the end, when all it brings is heavy metal music... especially Godsmack! XD Nice one!

I'd argue all three games have a decent explanation on various forms of love. Sands Of Time has youthful idealised love. Warrior Within has lust (the outfits of the two ladies and the ending cinematic of the true ending sums that up) and Two Thrones has a rekindling/maturity thing going on. Heck Forgotten Sands has brotherly love and what you'd do for a sibling to help them

Have you played Maquette? It's got a relationship that checks all your boxes!

I know he was dunking on uncharted for it's standard action movie love subplot. But I really enjoy the love story in the last uncharted game. Rarely do you get a love story about a relationship that is already established. I thought they did a really good job making the struggles of being in a marriage central to the plot.

Haven immediately comes to mind when I try to think of really good romance in a game. Really enjoyed that one.

I was 10 when i beat this game. And i shamelessly admit she was my first video game crush.

Haven was a great love story. The two characters had such a believable chemistry

7:18 I like how I started humming + air guitaring I'm Not Okay BEFORE 7:20 🤣

I remember being surprisingly impressed by the love triangle between Spiderman, Mary Jane, and the cat lady in the Spiderman game just because of how rare it is to see any kind of romance in games that has any sort of chemistry or history or real characters.

I always have to defend this game's combat, since so many people rag on it. Freezing enemies, then leaping over them and slicing them in half never got old.

I've replayed Sands Of Time at least once every two years since its release. With the exception of some aspects of the visuals, it still feels timeless (pun intended), largely thanks to the strong gameplay, great presentation, and wonderful writing.

Unrelated to the video but does Yahtzee have any more books in the works? I can't get enough of his Audiobooks :D

I really appreciate that you touch upon the sequels. They're not awful but just couldn't hit the same strides and left us disappointed. Everything is wrapped in a neat bow but they stumble upon themselves. The first one just had the perfect vibe of old school game and Arabian Knights. I like the Godsmack Prince of Persia but more so ironically and Two Thrones felt like a we have Prince at home vibe. Not terrible but something is missing.

This has been the most interesting Zero / Extra Punctuation that I have ever watched

I wonder if I still have Sands of Time lying around somewhere. The combat music was such a banger that it started playing in my head even after probably 15 years +

It technically fails your criteria (specifically 3, since it's technically totally optional), but I think Hades has my favorite approach to romance. The writing in general in that game is pretty top-notch, but the romance element in particular takes its time and really well develops, and literally every option you can take is in some way satisfying, particularly the (MAJOR SPOILERS FOR THOSE NOT IN THE KNOW) polyamory.

I would say the Witcher 3 romances are very well done. Especially the Geralt and Yennefer romance. Both are very flawed characters, both have a long history before the events of the game, they both have great chemistry and are very well written. The two characters have known each other so long that they are way past the honeymoon phase and are deep into learning how to deal with each other and their flaws stage.

The Bastila/Carth romances from the 1st Kotor have a bit more leg to them than the subsequent bioware games because they are both flawed, but the redemptive arc/blank slate does hurt them. Still, for bioware, they feel genuine

Nice, I loved this game and the Prince of Persia series were my first ever games to own of anything (POP1 and POP2). After many years of denying and shying away from any romance media for most of my life I finally feel comfortable enough to embrace that side of things as I’ve gotten older, and I bloody love it, as long as it’s not cliché and is meaningful, of course. Probably why I’ve started listening and becoming a fan of TWICE.

Haven is the only other game that comes to mind that meets these criteria. It's somewhat lacking in other areas but the central romance is excellent.

This game turns twenty this year, so it's nice to know it still holds up 😊

I clicked on this video so fast! I've always felt the same way about Sands of Time. The mindfuck of having, as you said, possibly the most erotic scene in video game history immediately followed by a huge betrayal absolutely gutted my 12 year old mind. The chemistry between Farah and the Prince was top notch. They actually played off of each other and had really great banter. Plus the voice acting was top notch. I never played Warrior Within because I was so pissed off about the direction they took the game's tone in. So many people praised Sands of Time for it not being an edge-fest at a time where almost every triple A game was. It truly baffled me that they then decided to make the Prince the kind of dude who would listen to Trapt. I played Two Thrones and enjoyed it but, yeah Farah and the Prince had practically no chemistry in it. The only time they had any was when they were arguing about pomegranates, lol. I really didn't like Farah's voice actress in Two Thrones. She sounded nothing like the original, spoke in a different accent, and never sounded playful. She would have held Two Thrones back, even if the game were to have better writing.

I feel like the romances in The Witcher 3 would be interesting to discuss here. Depending on what choices you make and how you interpret the dialogue, the game both overcomes and blatantly falls for all the problems addressed in this video.

I actually have quite the soft spot for the noir take on romance in Max Payne 2. Felt somehow genuine. More lust than love, but real and in the moment

nice work

Since we're on the topic, the Prince of Persia (2008) romance deserves a mention. I believe it has all the criteria you mentioned, and an interesting ending as well.

The game had a magical Arabian nights presentation which really elevated the story I hope they don’t fuck up the remake.

Surprisingly, I think Final Fantasy X makes this mark! The two characters - Tidus and Yuna - are distinct, they have chemistry that builds, the romance is sort of integral, and their companionship is definitely complicated.

While it fails to meet all of Yahtzee's criteria as laid out in this video, by favorite romance (if you can call it that) in a video game is between Link and Midna in the Legend of Zelda Twilight Princess. While Link himself is relatively flat due to being a silent protagonist (though he is expressive and definitely has his own character), but Midna has a fantastic character arc and while nothing explicit comes out between the two of them, the game uses a lot of implicit cues both in how Midna speaks to Link and how they visually emote at one another to really sell the bond they grow to share by the game's end.

I remember getting sands of time on Yahtzees recommendation and loving it. Then i got to a section about a 3rd of the way in where i had to fight 3 tough enemies at the same time and kept dying.

Would be interesting to see Yahtzee touch here on why he liked the characters in It Takes Two or Haven, which are certainly less epic than Sands of Time, but do portray at least characters in a mature relationship.

I do wonder what Yahtzee thinks of Transistor's romance.

Oh the good memories playing PoP! 😍 😍 I love the prince and Farah's story. In my opinion, this must be one of the few decent movie adaptations of a game. The movie managed to convey their chemistry. Another great love story in video games is James Raynor and Sarah Kerrigan❤️

In Warrior Within's defense, if a giant embodiment of instant DEATH were chasing after me for a few years, I'd be a brooding and miserable sack of shit, too.

Don't know why Yahtzee isn't into Warrior Within. He's right about the angsty teen stuff, but I remember the combat and story (especially the antagonist) being waaay better than SoT and Two Thrones.

Love should be a dilemma for our heroes. A struggle. Something that cannot be embraced without challenging their journey in some way.

Gosh, save some romance opinions for the Valentine’s Day Video 😂 Although I love knowing that not only Yahtzee likes a well written romance, but that his favourite is a bittersweet one. The tragic love stories stay with a person much stronger than the happily-ever-after ones.

Utawarerumono Mask of Deception and Mask of Truth also has all these elements in the romance between Haku and Kuon.

I wish Prince of Persia would come back...

Sands of Time was the first game I ever finished. I finish most games I pick up now that I'm older and actually have an attention span, but none of them make me feel the way sands of time did.

I guess my favorite romance plot in video games would be between Noah and Mio in Xenoblade 3 both with their chemistry being adorable and entertaining while their romance also being central to the plot and themes. Main other examples of romance being done potentially well is in the Fire Emblem games where every unit is their own fleshed out character, but the player has the choice in matchmaker to make unique pairings (not every pairing is a home run of course but there are some surprisingly well written ones).

I think for me the most memorable romance/love story in a game was in Stories: The Path of Destinies, though I guess partly because it was kind of tragic and heartbreaking a lot of the time.

Hey Yahtzee! Have you played the Demo for Forspoken? I can't believe a major game release actually gave players a demo! I finished it last week and the gameplay was awesome, loved the magic system. It was nice to feel like I got to try a game out for once this decade.

Mine's gotta be Zagreus and Megaera from Hades, but revisiting my library indeed made me realise how slim pickings were. Still, very fun and endearing, I love the dynamic of Zagreus trying his best at the house to win back and apologize to Meg, while she's slowing warming back up to him, intercut by mandatory brutal fights to the death. And yes, I must admit I do find Megaera... spiciness quite appealing, but they did a damn good job making Zagreus an excellent and likeable protagonist. Still, as I said, pickings were slim. And even despite the stellar writing on Hades, my preference in terms of characters will still go to Pyre, their previous game. Check it out, it's 6 hours long and a masterpiece. I also gotta give a shoutout to Night in the Woods, for having what I still think to this day as a pretty good contender for best characters overall I've ever seen in a video game.

FF VIII is still one of my favourite game love story's, though I'm aware I'm in a minority it still beats allot of modern attempts.

This reminded me of how f*ing good warrior within was, it's one of the "perfect games" out there. Not many were made in the last years, only Sekiro and Doom Eternal comes to mind.

First time poster Long time watcher FFX I believe had an outstanding romance element which meets all of the criteria here; Tidus and Yuna are detailed characters Their relationship grows through the 40 hour playtime Both have their flaws And without giving away the ending oh boi is there a complication at the end.

I don't remember the last time Yahtzee mentioned The Escapist in ZP, interesting.

having played quite a bit of it, i feel like cyberpunk 2077 handled the romances really well. all of the characters available to romance are super fleshed out, and they play off V really well. it's also entirely possible to fuck things up with them in spectacular fashion which i appreciate. the two standouts being (IMO) kerry and judy.

Recently I played Tales of Arise I I thought the romance element was pretty quite well handled.and of course Geralt and Yen are amazing.

I like how the prince calls her out for reading him love poems instead of finding a way for them to escape

I absolutely agree to the video. It is one of my all time favourites. But I would also mention the celshading Prince of Persia! The chemistry between the Prince and Elika is very good too. Their relationship evolves during the gameplay and you as the player can decide how much dialogue they will have because you trigger it with a button. This one and Sands of Time are the best PoPs ever made, in my opinion. And honestly, I'm really scared of the SoT remake because I have no trust in Ubisoft these days anymore.

another important thing in a good romance/love story should be the fact that both characters should grow and change together, rather than just one of them changing or vice versa. im reminded of rpg games where you form a party/adventuring group with people, and everyone has different moral alignments (dragon age as an example), and whilst its all fun and good to have characters with differing beliefs, i dont want to feel like im arguing with a brick wall when i try to explain to the gothic witch that "killing children is wrong".

I still think Super Meat Boy's willingness to throw himself into a meat grinder repetitively to rescue his lover still stands strong

I would absolutely love to hear his views on the relationship in Darkened Skye and the .....let's say .... Unforeseen and utterly bonkers ending it leads up to.

Enslaved: Odyssey to the West did some of this pretty okay, from what I recall from Yahtzee's review

Disney needs to learn something from this video. Or maybe they don't because they managed to get a really compelling romance with Tangled, in which case I have no idea why they stopped trying.

Already the best take of 2023.

Another PERFECT example is the romance between Estelle and Joshua from Trails in the shy Trilogy. It starts with both of them being kinda siblings (Joshua was adopted) and thier romance and history not only pushes them to be stronger for each but to take risks and mature to overcome all the flaws that caused them to seperate. Any details will comepletly spoil the fantastic story so i highly recomend it.

I still think witcher 3 also had some good romance between main characters at least in main game if we speak of ups and downs. There was plot involvement to some extent and characters are not exactly blank slates though it does kind of have that harem bonk everyone feel to it. But i do like the side stories of romancable characters and the possibility that it just doesn't go anywhere in the end.

Dragon Age romances are generally refreshing in this regard: the protagonist is less of a power fantasy, not all characters are interested in the player, the characters are on more equal footing, and romances don't necessarily end happily. As another user pointed out, ME3 is also surprisingly good with this with Male Shepard and Kaidan, and their arc over the trilogy is unique and bittersweet.

wish more romances in games were like this