I worked for ITV at £480 per day and a KZfaqr approached me and offered £20 per video! hahaha

I had no idea editor culture was that toxic. Thanks for sharing.

I spent 3 years mostly working as the only editor for a KZfaqr with over 3 million subscribers uploading daily content. I eventually forced myself away from that work and I'm now post production manager for a highly successful broadcast and production company. I could talk for hours about all the things I've learnt throughout these periods of my life, I wish I was sitting around that table with you both! It's so important that KZfaq can mature in this regard as KZfaq editors are often SO incredibly talented and are sacrificing years of their lives for their KZfaq client(s) when they could otherwise be working with many different companies or individuals, earning far more money in much better conditions and developing their portfolio and experience. Something needs to change

I really like the "As the creator grows, the editor grows with them" concept that Hayden was talking about. It just makes sense

As fun as editing in the KZfaq space is, the hardest part about it is that channels require consistent uploads, regardless of pre-production and production’s quality, and then it falls on post-production to pull the weight, at the expense of your time. All departments of the production process need to grow in quality, simultaneously.

I’ve worked with a range of KZfaq creators. What I’ve found most helpful is to provide Creators with a checklist of what you’ll do. No more. Most Creators think that you would go back and go through all their content but there are still nuances that get missed unless you actually talk in depth w the creator. A lot of creators ask what’s your rate for a 10min video. The more important question here is how many minutes of footage I have to boil down into a 10min video. The footage-to-cut ratio is one of the biggest factor that should drive how much you charge. What I’ve seen sometime happen is that creators will start making rough cuts over which I clean up everything in terms of cuts, sound, pacing and motion graphics. Yes I’ll charge a lil less but it’s less work and less stress for me.

The big difference isn't about the money. It's about the team. KZfaq editors generally have to do everything, whereas in traditional TV and movies, there is a team of editors, each with an Assistant Editor. Then there's a whole separate team to do just color correction (and online editing). And there is also another full team for Sound. Probably a total of 20 people are needed to produce the traditional content we see on Netflix and the Movie Theaters. Even if they wanted to work on KZfaq, they wouldn't because they have to have to wear too many hats. There is certainly a massive (and growing) need for 'KZfaq editors' but this doesn't have to mean getting them for super cheap. It means people who CHOOSE to focus their career on KZfaq videos and thus becoming good at editing, color, and sound (all at a lower level than the traditional teams). If you have all these skills you are very valuable in this growing world of KZfaq.

The story at the beginning is so on point. I could fill a book with similar stories where eventual I just walked away thinking what the heck just happened here?

This is legit super helpful for a creator who is looking at hopefully hiring an editor soon 🙏

What a goldmine of an episode for editors or anyone in this type of industry. It's also very eye-opening to realize that although web content has scaled tremendously from its infancy days, it's still developing. Wonderful insight! Stir is so cool.

18:10 - One of the biggest assets, and frustrations as well, in editing for youtube clients, is that 8 out of 10 times, you would just get some audio clip and you would have to perform magic with it (source all the clips, do all the graphics, figure out when and where to use captions and what they should be), essentially giving you a job on top of the editing job you already had. If they're nice and somewhat professional, maybe they'll give you that narration in a word file and call that a script and give you a general sense of what style they're going for and what they like, but it was still always up to me to figure out all the creative stuff (the best I experienced is that they had a drive folder with their preferred music and memes, sometimes a couple of motion graphics, but those are B and C tier creators we're talking about, so better than the 90% of others out there, but still far from perfect). And like I said, that could be an asset, because if I have some presets I already made for a particular niche of video, and if I can help them figure out what it is that they're missing, it's great, but that's not the stuff you're getting paid for. In fact, nobody is counting the hours of you searching for the appropriate footage and music, nobody is counting the fact that I'm using my Storyblocks account, that I spent how many minutes or hours even in photoshop editing just photos and assets to use... They only pay for hours of editing, and that was the best-case scenario which is seemingly harder to find on freelancing sites. The worst case scenario, people are offering 20$ per video, no questions asked. They call these channels "cashcows", and I know that their content is almost generated (drop footage you found by using keywords, apply some seamless transition presets with no rhyme or reason, and call it a day), but not only can I not imagine an actual human being watching those videos and liking them, but I don't know what actual human person wants to make that and considers 20$ payments fair (regardless of where you're from... I'm from a developing country myself, and that is still so low... for the US, that is a fucking crime. In the economy where they're asking us to use as little electricity as possible, with the energy crisis and all, turning your computer on and opening Premiere isn't worth it for that money). I got off on a long tangent, but what I'm trying to say is that most creators aren't even "creators" in a real way because they're not thinking visually, they're not considering the viewer, they're not watch youtube or films as a matter of fact, and mainly see the platform as a dumping ground where you just shove a bunch of content where they're either selling themselves as influencers or are selling some actual products, - thinking its a magical box that shits out money in return. As editors (especially including myself, since whenever the jobs aren't coming, you start to question what is acceptable, which is bad) we should develop some spine and say no to people who think that just because they decided to make low-effort content, you shouldn't be paid a living wage.

I definitely experienced a client thinking “take my video and make it something and bring in revenue”, man what a crazy clip that was, editing 3 8+ minute videos a week… after crunching my numbers making less at my previous part-time assistant manager job for double the work 🥴

Great conversation love the angle of looking at traditional media to best adapt into our industry. Congrats to you both on this new endeavor ✨

What a phenomenal podcast, i’m hooked! Well done guys, great content 👌

Took me the first 10 years of my editing career to get a full-time job that was not on KZfaq. I gained a lot of skills that are valuable, but I'm so happy to be in a properly staffed position.

“It comes down to the lack of preparedness in pre-production, honestly. Everything that doesn’t get done in production or pre-production falls on post.” Such a good quote to really drive home that planning is so important! As a Program Manager, I also use similar work back schedules for all of my projects and add a bit of buffer to that as well in case there are any delays.

A big creator i found on LinkedIn with multiple channels combining to 25-30 MILLION subscribers, only wanted to pay 30k/y but edit for ALL the channels. Insane, and ALSO wanted people to relocate to them.

Thank you so much for making this podcast. As someone who recently graduated to be an editor with no interest in film, I've been looking for more information on the experiences and proper balances of KZfaq editors. I've been fortunate enough to find work. But the ground is so untapped that it feels as if there's a need for both my creator to train me on expectations, and for me to train them on ways to communicate. Your podcast has made me much more willing to speak with confidence on that and potentially made a rocky relationship into a mutually happy one. Thanks again, and looking forward to more!

I'm an editor for a KZfaqr and this is music to my ears. Thank you guys for this podcast!

I'm already loving the quality upgrades matching mics, moving camera when it pans out. Amazing! Well done.

I just wanted to say that I love your podcast. I work for various German KZfaqrs and content creators. You guys are telling exactly and I am thinking and you offer such a great value for anyone who is beginning with editing. Thanks!❤

This was great!! I actually took a ton of cues from large corporations’ best practices and applied that to my freelance work. You mentioned one of them: Workback Schedules! It’s one of many best practices that really help to keep things on track and manageable. The challenge is getting creators to adopt or even just respect your workflow, as some of them work in a very “abstract” way hehe.

This channel is truly helping give insight into a career I’ve put off for too long! After a DECADE in SOF, I’m leaving the military and going to Film School! I look forward to the next discussion.

Professionalism meets ideocracy. Please make this an ongoing series, it will help evolve humanity concerning novice and pro video editing!!!

You guys are awesome for sharing this conversation with us all. You've given me tons to think about as a creator going forward as I'm just barely starting to think about hiring help. 👊

This is a great podcast. Just subscribed. For so long I've been tuning into different podcast for the Freelancning, Graphic Design & Video Editing space. I have now found the right place for me

Thx for putting the time into this episode you guys! Very interesting listen/view. I've been cutting unscripted for almost 20 years, love to hear your perspective on traditional media vs new media vs youtube. Great job.

You don’t understand how much I appreciate this conversation! Thank you!

I'm at the point where I am actually considering hiring an editor. My videos are not talking head videos, and the editing is very important to the content of my Channel. I have edited everything myself so far, because I come from that world and actually love editing. But I need to give it up to focus on hopefully growing the Channel and business surrounding it. So my question for you all here is......what is a fair rate for a full time editor that can tell good stories, and also be a bit of a jack of all trades by doing some color and sound work (nothing crazy for color and sound)? Any input is appreciated.

As someone who is trying to get more and more into freelance video editing, what Jordan said at 34:54 really resonated with me because I recently left a company where I initially loved working, but as time went on it became more and more difficult to work with them because of what they demanded. It wasn't something I was enjoying and really dreaded going to work each day. It felt like the projects just dragged on and on. This episode of the podcast was killer, thank you!

This was so relatable. I am now in the position that I am looking at hiring shooters and editors and this was a great refresher on my come up. I'm here to be part of the solution when it comes to helping future creators.

Holy moly, thank you for this weekly gift! So many golden nuggets: 1. The quality of your job offering is correlate to the quality of talent that you'll attract (fair wages $3,783 a week for 5 days a week, work-life balance, great equipment). 2. Start studying traditional media (cinema + movies) to learn the best practices that can apply to the Wild West that is KZfaq. 3. The biggest mistake creators can make is assuming that the editor knows what going on in their head. The relationship between the Director (creator) and the Editor is crucial. It is the directors responsibility to communicate what they want, the editor isn't a mind reader. 4. Choose your trade-off. Either spend more time on pre-production so the story is established, or give more time (instead of setting unrealistic deadlines) to post-production. You can't have your cake and eat it too, it'll just be a nasty cake.

This is actually great! I'm an aspiring creator but love editing videos too and I feel anyone who has ever edited even 1 video will know how much work, time and effort it takes to make a great video. The people who don't pay their editors more, probably haven't edited a single video in their life or are just shitty exploitative people who takes advantage of their editors because they know they need the income which is absolutely horrendous. It's downright abusive when editing is something that can totally make or break a video. It's great you open the conversation with this for aspiring editors to also protect them. Great job guys!

This podcast is amazing. The way you described editing as slightly painful for a beautiful result was perfect

Thank you very much for this input!!! I just subscribed! I really, really like your vibe, atmosphere and attitude 😘 Calm, confident, authentic and also transparent, that your dont have all the answers ❤️❤️

I love how broad youtube scene is. In one extreme, you got LTT who can probably start cinema level production company with all the crazy stuff he has, and you got this guy where even a mouse is an uneccasry luxury

Love the channel! Been recommending your videos to my friends that want to become editors after we finish film school! ❤️

Bro this channel is awesome! I’m really loving this whole format and info from this vid

I think a big part of the issue here in comparing Hollywood Vs the “wild west” that is KZfaq is that most “KZfaqrs” can’t really afford editors and would be in the negative if they paid editors Hollywood rates. KZfaq takes 50% of the earnings. Quality takes a backseat to subject & quantity because everything is disposable. You watch it once generally and are forever done with it. TikTok is setting the industry standards and the standard is shot on the phone, shoddy key out, quick laughs, shock value or controversy and onto the next thing. That’s not a space for feature film story editors. KZfaq is not really a safe space in terms of career. The rules are constantly changing and when things go wrong, no matter what level you’re at, you’re told to suck it up and keep it moving, even if you’re playing by whatever the rules are that day. I know someone who just the other day lost a full day of monetization for no reason at all. KZfaq systems just goofed. No compensation for all the lost earnings for that day. Just gotta keep it moving. And that’s just THAT angle of things, setting aside the social hostility of comments and isolation from perpetual work. In that kind of space where creators are expected to just deal and constantly pump out to keep up, I think the best thing an editor can do that’s interested in KZfaq is strike a deal for percentage or a small percentage on top of the wages offered. KZfaq is not going to fix this. And the competition in this space is only growing.

Y’all are the best! Love that this now exists. Balance the mics tho, maybe eq adjustments.. Thanks guys, you rock!

Am very excited about this podcast! Love both of your works and it's much appreciated that you are sharing your insights!

such an important topic to discuss publicly. thanks for sharing this with all of us KZfaq editors!

Was a great watch! I realize that I have a real love for editing and I am still learning. I wanted to start freelancing but struggled a bit with valuing myself and how to tell customers "sorry, this won't work...". I will be giving more thought about how much I charge, and what kind of services to provide as well as working closer to the creator to provide them with what they want. I also would like to look into editing for TV and streaming services. Sounds pretty good... This entire discussion was very insightful and I hope the channel continues to grow.

We’re editing a docu-series for Lawrence the Band and the integration of Stir in this video is fantastically helpful. Haven’t seen a brand integration this useful or graceful in a while. Congrats boys ❤🎉

Amazing episode, I have been thinking about this for a couple of months now. I truly hope current and future creators watch this.

This is quickly becoming one of my favorite podcasts. Another great episode, gentleman!

I'm an amateur editor and the work experience I had was very similar to the reddit post you shared. I used to edit exclusively for a youtube content creator as the main part of my job and I loved editing their content. I was pretty gutted when the person who had hired me suddenly came out and told me that he couldn't afford to pay me anymore and I was given 3 weeks notice after having worked for his business for 2 years. I'm glad that I came across this podcast because I love being an editor and being able to listen to other editor's experiences has been pretty enlightening.

I love how well you guys explain everything so well that almost everyone would be able to understand it.

This is super cool, never really understood or gave much thought to the business side of editing on either film/online content. You guys are saving some people from getting swindled, I'm sure of it!

The editor to the video is as the salesman to the compony, there for, editors should get commotion form the videos revenue. no salesman = no compony, no editor = no video. Great podcast, looking forward for the next episode

Really loved this conversation. I’m brand new to editing but am completely intoxicated by it. Thanks for the wealth of information!

Great points! Style guides are such a key thing for us editors!

I love the content that you're making! I had a similar experience with bad clients when i edited with my first client, where he wan't the perfect audio for his videos(AKA, asking me to reduce the audio on his video 5 times and saying that i didn't add the footage he wanted even though he never told me what footages were needed for his videos. It wasn't as bad as some of the other ones, but still many people don't appreciate how hard editing is. Keep up the great work Dudes!

Great Podcast, kudos to both of you. Would love a podcast on Hayden's process of video editing. Like what planning you do and choosing how to edit this video, this would be cool.

Thanks so much. This was so interesting and important for people to know. The reality is that most of us on YT just don’t have the revenues to hire a professional editor at realistic rates. I would love to have an editor. However, I know that it isn’t possible at the moment. Even with 100k subscribers and around 30-40k views per video, I would be seriously out of pocket if I wanted to hire a good editor.

Really enjoyed the frank discussion around pay. It's so hard to navigate this realm when the information isn't as widespread. Especially in terms of KZfaq where the editor could be the one adding that secret sauce of keeping audiences watching. Certainly agree its 2 way street and should be more collaborative! :D

"if you undercharge yourself, you'll underperform yourself" I barely started watching the video and already received this wake-up call

Here’s the thing, if my videos were getting millions of views each and the total video didn’t just make $50-$80, then I would have absolutely no issue paying more. It’s to the point where small creators can’t even hire editors because we literally operate at a loss because there’s not enough money coming in per video to afford editors that aren’t super cheap.

Such great content! I'm not even close to being able to hire an editor but proper pay has been a major concern, the valuing advice helps put me at ease haha

This was a really insightful discussion. I'd love to see an episode where you invite a few creators come discuss their experiences with hiring and working with editors. I'd especially love to hear what types of things the creators learned about working with editors, how to best setup pre-production and production to make things smoother in post, and their first experiences hiring. I've been working with my first editor for a few months now and things have been going really well.

just got the notification and I already know it's gonna be a great podcast!

this was a great episode guys. i could listen to you two talk for hours...

Hey guys. Thanks for giving from your time to record this conversation. One of the side effects of KZfaq and generally web editing is that nowadays After Effects or similar 2D softwares became part of the requirements for an editor to be hired. In TV and cinema - if someone asks me for that kind of work I would point him to the VFX team or to hire a VFX artist. Those rules still apply in productions above certain budget threshold.

A lot of the KZfaq content creators I've worked with don't fully seem to understand the sheer amount of work involved in Editing. Especially in this Digital Marketplace, the end product of content is becoming more and more 'Just post and move on to the next' so the expectation that these 'quick and dirty videos' actually require a lot of work, sometimes more than longer form content just isn't there by anybody except the editors.

This is the absolute best video they made so far! I love the moving camera

Dudes, i literally sit and watch whole of this podcast. Great job, waiting for new ones

This podcast has so much information. keep up the good work guys. I am enjoying it immensely. I think you're the best.

Congratulations on 13kkk so excited.. I was 900th subscriber and seeing this grow makes me soooo excited

AMAZING CONTENT as always fellas! What Jordan said was so true, it's all about pre-production. If you think about another area of traditional media: sports editors. Once the game is finished they MUST have the full highlights completely ready after one ad break. To even begin discussing how much planning has to go into this, to make the editors job easy as they edit during a game... it's insane. Then furthermore, sports editors charge ridiculously high rates per game. E.g. I knew one guy who charged 22k (AU) per game because no one else in the city knew how to do what he did.

The importance of that editor/director relationship or style guide is so necessary. I used to work as a freelance scenic fabricator building sets and some clients I’ve worked with would hand over a pretty picture without any details like crucial dimension information and it often fell on us to also design the thing that we were just being paid to build, which was incredibly frustrating. At the end of the day, I didn’t care what the project looked like bc it really wasn’t my design. I cared that I built it to their exact specifications bc they were in charge.

I never stick to listening podcasts but this one was just made for me, the only podcast i'll ever watch and listen to, start to finish. Great content guys!

Only 8 minutes in and I’ve already learned a lot. Great job guys!

As has artists I have the same problem with pricing my art. Thank you it was helpful.

Such fascinating conversations that I have with other creative / editor friends, thanks for sharing!

I'm planning on getting good at editing and editing my own videos for my yt, but this has taught me alot about what it's like to be an editor. It's honestly true that there are so many dog channels and creators that don't know what they're doing, and hiring editors that they don't deserve, and giving them the shittest work environment possible, and even then they won't grow

This was a really interesting conversation. Thank you to both of you.

This is a great video for all creative freelancers! As a voiceover talent, the same exact things apply to VO on KZfaq. Small channels want to hire pro voice actors to do a lot of work for little to no money. I regularly voice a number of YT channels BUT they are large companies who use YT as a marketing outlet as opposed to Creator channels who want to use YT as an income source. Knowing this difference helps you as the freelancer target the specific type of client who understands your value.

the programmed slider is so nice from a production standpoint. Love that.

I'm really glad this was on my recommended, very cool!

I have just stumbled on this channel! Only 10 mins in & love it! 👌🏼

This story is so painful in every way. I was watching this the second time and it was somehow worse knowing where it’s going. Poor guy

I would love an episode based on lost projects/failing harddrives, and how you’ve dealt with it if you ever had. I recently lost a project I had spent 40hrs on that was only halfway finished due to my computer just crashing and wiping everything I had on it when I accidentally pressed “restart” instead of “shut down” And no, I definitely did not press “reset”

as a creator these podcasts are really helpful to see things from the editor perspective

16:11 I just want to thank you for saying "a long ten minute video." When I tell people how much time it takes me to get a minute or two of video edited I feel like they think I must be an idiot. I edit my own videos (and I'm a nooby still learning) so I'm writer, director, producer, cameraman, sound and video editor and my own worse critic. But I'm really enjoying it.

As an aspiring editor this is very interesting insight to hear. Thank you for putting out this content.

that story was insane. really love y’all content

Love this, I am Editor and Creator, I am guilty of passing the work to the editor part, and now I realise I need to be more pre production and planning, to my editing easier.

I edit my own videos and I couldn't see myself ever outsourcing this task...I feel it's so important in the creator process. It takes me longer but I love it there is always something new to learn.

Hi guys, big fan of your podcast!! I’m old, 50, I did my video career in the US and due to family issues I had to come back and live in Spain. I got back in the game of editing, now remotely, and I love it, but dynamics and rules, have definitely changed since the 90s. I’m slowly catching up to your podcast, listening to all of them, and just listened to this one. I completely agree that each editor knows how much they’re worth, but HONESTY is something that plays into it and having those high dollar pays, like the one you mentioned for Netflix, may get some young kids to step into that blurry line of experience and honesty. If I were to get paid 3Gs per week, I’ll be sweating and questioning every single cut I make….yikessss!!! Anyhow, I love your content and I enjoy listening to your podcast weekly. Keep it up!!

Inspired by your stories and rooting for you both!

I love your freelancing or work progress content keep it up!

"In a year I'll be so rich & famous..." LOL!! An inflated ego is a creator's No 1 enemy. The story mentioned that the video the guy was hired to edit was about driving tips, meaning it's highly possible that it's a car focused youtuber and I've watched every single one of them domestic & intl, so I kind of have an idea of who that creator is...

That does help sending your editor timestamps, it's very efficient

Great talk! I've been editing for 25 years and a lot resonates here!

Ty! This is amazing information Andy soo well delivered ❤

Great Content. Thanks brother!

Dude I love this so much, bc this is something I’m struggling with pricing and know my worth

Damn, Tis is amazing. good insight! appreciate your time making this video!

I have a similar issue as a scriptwriter for several youtubers with 1m+ subs. Im here doing the research for the video, making the creative beats and laying the foundation and plan for the video editor. Some KZfaqrs seem to value that so low, and even my current rate of $400 per script is relatively low and these videos go on to get hundreds of thousands or millions of views.

I have an idea for a video, maybe discuss what it is an editor needs from the creator to make a great video? Style guides, footage, pre production. What’s the ideal client providing/doing?