No, the injury risk isn't actually greater...if you do it correctly. The problem is, doing it correctly requires warbow posture rather than target shooting posture, and people keep trying to do it with target shooting posture. The injury risk comes from having your upper arm close to or touching your chest. If you lean into the bow and draw to the ear (kzfaq.info/get/bejne/i9x3dLxzss7Ge40.html), your upper arm and shoulder are not forced into that angle. I can keep my shoulder in roughly the same position as Jake does in his preferred form, even drawing high, if I lean into the bow and settle my shoulders. Drawing to the face with an upright posture makes it really difficult to keep your shoulder in the proper alignment if you start high, though.

This has nothing to do with warbows. The examples I gave when discussing the previous video were target archers. I wanted to know how high level target archers that draw this way were avoiding injuries. The answer was that, largely, they are not. This was demonstrated by articles in sports medicine journals, studies by WA, and anecdotes from people that know these archers personally. There were some technical changes that could be made to mitigate risk, but the injury rate was in fact high.

@@mortenjacobsen5673 And yet it doesn't cause pain or debilitating injury in doing so, as even a casual observation shows (after all, Joe Gibbs, Simon Stanley, Justin Ma, Mark Stretton, etc. all have shot over 120# using traditional techniques for years or even decades without issues). Try to shoot 200# with a modern style and you'll be in for a bad time; I'd be shocked if anyone could get it to full draw using target archery form.

@@InFerrumVeritas Fair enough, but I didn't see that comment and you didn't specify (at least not here) that you're excluding examples outside of modern target archery. The major problem I see with these videos is that he doesn't explain why it's okay to use it for war archery but not target archery, and there seems to be an underlying assumption that everyone is only interested in Olympic/barebow, not historical archery...which wouldn't be so bad, if people would specifically say so. The way people have been talking here, though, is likely to give false impressions of historical archery techniques to novice archers.

I mean, Jake said in the video that this isn't about historical warbow techniques. This channel is pretty narrow, focusing on modern recurve archery.

Thats great to hear. Im glad to help.

Update: After watching Jake's videos I decided to experiment with the form he is recommending. I am still shooting a traditional asian bow using thumbdraw, which I have been doing for 5 years. I have studied the recurve form series videos and follow all direction aside from the anchor portion. I anchor with my thumb knuckle under my ear and fletchings along my face. 28.5 inch draw. The 5 step method recommended by Justin Ma and Jai Tian is remarkably similar in many ways to "Coach Lee's" method. While shoulder injury has not been an issue for me, elbow tendonitis has. Goa Ying himself suffered from it. Incorporating Jake's advice into my shot cycle has really helped to alleviate my elbow pain. (Letting the arrow point to the left of the target in set position was what did it.) It has also helped me to grasp many of the things that Goa Ying was trying to get me to understand, like TRANSFER which Goa Ying called Balance. I would highly recommend anyone who likes to pull a bowstring of any sort to check out the recurve form series. For me it has meant a lot more red and yellow and a lot less blue and black. Thanks, Jake! I am going to order a shirt for my barebow shooting buddy, and I tell everyone I shoot with to check you out.

Lol I see it too now. Probably because he's holding his bow in left and talking with his right

Carrying around children should increase your overall strength. My wife went from a 22 to 30# on fingers, while having no traning other than carrying around children and no shooting. I had to buy her stronger limbs when she started shooting again. I regret not buying even stronger limbs for her. She used a wrap (a lot) more than I did so my strength did not increase as much as it did for her.

Henrik, Wow a new strength training method!

@@garymickus6412 She used one of those long and wide pieces of fabric that you tie yourself i.e., a "baby wrap" and not a baby carrier (Babybjörn etc). The baby wraps you tie yourself are much better ergonomically and once you are used to them they are actually much faster to "deploy" than the baby carriers. And you can wear one ready under a jacket very low profile (like sweater). But I guess much of the strength increase was from the "man handling" itself (picking them up etc).

Cool!

That doesn't actually make a difference in shoulder alignment. The difference is in where the bow is drawn to (typically to the ear for war archery, eastern or western, versus the chin or elsewhere on the face for modern archery styles) and whether posture is upright or leaning. How you actually grip the string is irrelevant, unless you're shooting a style with more than a 32" or so draw.

@@alexanderflack566 in Madhya ways I agree with you, however, using the thumb to hold the bow string facilitates a more circular posture with the arms, bringing the latissimus dorsii into play, dropping the whole shoulder down and stabilising the joint along with the combination of the teres minor, supraspinatus, infraspinatus, deltoid to raise and bring the arms back in an almost mirror of each other and rhomboid major and minor plus trapezius to bring the scapulae together, whilst the pectoral muscle hold the shoulders forwards fit the initial draw bracing against the back muscles. This is far more even in the Mongolian and Japanese styles than for the Western styles, and the rotation of the forearm of the drawing arm facilitates this as much the Mediterranean release inhibits it. I do wish we could use the Mongolian draw in competition with a "soft" glove rather than using a thumb ring. I much prefer it, fit the sake of comfort of draw in the shoulders, though it bloody hurts the thumb nail at above 65lbs, and I hope 72lbs. In terms of pros and cons of Mongolian versus Mediterranean release... Mongolian release means the arrow is never going to get blown off the rest, you can have shorter limbs (more efficient and far faster, again, useful in windy conditions), and when done correctly, it is an incredibly smooth release, necessitating a lower arro spine, and your forearm is aligned very well to reduce torsion injuries to the wrist and elbow.... However.... It bloody hurts your thumb nail at heavy draw weights, and even the most minor of inconsistencies are punished by poor arrow flight and terrible scores unless you really really work on it. But given that the Mongolian release is not accepted by FITA, this is rather a moot point.

@@adamkilroe9840 Mongolian Release is not accepted by FITA for Instinctive Bow and Longbow Division only. There is no such limitation in Recurve and Barebow division. However they are subject to the same finger protection rules as Mediterranean Release which means solid thumb ring made out of hard material such as plastic or metal are not allowed. You still allowed to use Thumb Guard made out of rubber or leather and such thumb guard is commonly used by Asiatic trad archers.

@@adamkilroe9840 Quoting Justin Ma isn't going to help your case when you don't understand what he's saying. In fact, in that very same video, he points out that English longbow archers use the same technique for the same reason. He was contrasting Gao Ying's technique against modern target posture; it's perfectly possible to take advantage of the same principles with Mediterranean release. Forearm rotation is important to shoulder alignment in the bow arm, not the string arm.

@@adamkilroe9840 Also, if your thumbnail is hurting, try using a Manchu thumb ring. The technique with these allows you to keep your thumb more in line with the arrow, keeping it out of the way of the string.

Reference the other video linked in the description of this video. I cover exactly how high is too high.

@@JakeKaminskiArcherythanks. Based off your input I think I'm good. My arm and hand don't come up past my nose so I think I'm alright. Like I said I haven't experienced any shoulder issues/pain but wanted to make sure I wasn't setting myself up for an injury down the road. Thanks again.

Ill do a video on that, they are a different ball game, but don't draw the bow back with the "barrel of the gun" in the set-up position due to the way the cams roll over.

Totally different due to the draw cycle.

I don't think they are haters, but rather a bunch that got blinded by the success of more successful archers. Whenever someone is so successful using such and such method, it got easily perceived as the best method for everyone and they immediately copy it and advocate it, unaware it lead them to blind alley. Whoever follow other than the "successful" method is considered wrong. That's the typical human nature. Instead of taking the time tirelessly testing and formulating the best method individually, they look for easy gimmicks and copy the more successful people blindly.

Wan R I agree but there are some people I’ve seen here that constantly do this to jakes videos. The Guy is just trying to help people.

Nothing to apologize for, Jake. Some folk just love to be offended. I'm guessing it's cognitive confirmation bias that's doing it for them

@@mortenjacobsen5673 Well then tell that to Tan ya Ting and Chang Hye Jin et al. A leveraged shot has obvious advantages, it seems to me. Though I am open to that it might increase the likelihood of injuries. As I am not a doctor.

@@mortenjacobsen5673 lots of text there. I am not defensive at all as I do a Kim textbook draw (to my ability). My only point is that the last female olympic gold medal winner does a leveraged draw and many others in the highest tier. So the leveraged draw is just not some anomaly, but very common among the top female shooters. So IMO one cannot simply dismiss it like you do.

You may check in GlobalDRO.com for such medication.

Morten and Wang thank you very much. Do you recall why an archer was disqualified for prohibited substances at the Vegas tournament a few years ago?