You mean jedi, as the admirals were treated like sh*t and ignored whenever they suggested tactics that were far better than jedi. Like usual the jedi hot headed ego thinking they are gods gift and invincible against everything to the point they use these to take the fight to the clankers. Which is why all the admirals defected with barely any issues. Granted the republic never really had their own Navy. So it's no surprise they did this, their ignorance and arrogance go hand in hand most of the time. Anakin being the worse, but even the humble Obi-Wan is guilty of it. Battle of Sarrish which broke commander codi is proof of this flaw they jedi had.

@@ryanfreebody6881 They admirals usually proposed tactics that were more effective, but I think the division was more than just because of tactical effectiveness. We have to remember a lot of these admirals went on to become Imperials. At least half of them easily switched to the Empire, maybe 90% at most. They weren't all as horrific as Tarkin, but it seems common for them to not care about collateral damage and civilian losses. Of course the Jedi's efforts to minimize civilian casualties usually meant battles lasted longer and led to further Republic losses, but in all honesty without the Jedi the Republic military likely would have fought just as ugly as the Separatists. To be fair, at least these officers have experience in fighting pirates and criminals while most Jedi mostly acted as diplomats with events like the Invasion of Naboo being exceptions. It's a pretty complex situation. Overall if the officers had full control of the GAR and Republic Navy, they would have pushed their clone troopers to be more brutal and vicious, but they at least would have won the war far sooner than Palpatine hoped for. The Jedi meanwhile made sure to respect their allies, neutral worlds, and even their enemies at times and encouraged their clone troopers to be more like people. However their efforts usually lead to key Separatists making their escape and thus keeping the war going for longer. Hence why the Jedi became unpopular the closer you were to the capital of the Republic and more popular the further out you went. Citizens on worlds engulfed in the war of course hate the fact that their is a war destroying their home, as many planets basically died in the war. However the Jedi at least tried to preserve lives as seen on Ryloth, winning the respect of not just their troops, but people on the frontlines. But deep in Republic territory as the quality of life went down as more resources were devoted to the war effort, people began to hate how the Jedi couldn't just end the war. It likely didn't help with the fact that Dooku was formerly a Jedi. They didn't understand the horror of war like the people in the Outer Rim and other regions between the there and the Core Rim. However over time in the war everything was changing for the combatants of the Clone Wars. While the clone troopers began to grow more independent and individualistic thanks to the influence of the Jedi, the war made the Jedi grow more bitter and darker. Give it a few more years and the Jedi and Clones may have partially switched places personality-wise. All in all, it kind of shows how despite unprepared the Republic really was. The Jedi were reluctant to become generals and fight a war, the officers had little compassion and little patience. And in the middle were the clone troopers torn between both of these leaders. Of course things probably weren't so smooth in the CIS military. Sure, Dooku chose a good chunk of the officers and all an officer would have to worry about was if their droids malfunctioned as they would follow any order given to them. But the idealists and corporate officers along with a number of mercenaries also hired likely argued over how to fight as well. The corporate's and mercenaries at least had Dooku who always granted them authority over the idealists, while Palpatine had to play a balancing act to pretend to be a Jedi ally while also finding officers who would suit his purposes in the Empire.

@@ryanfreebody6881 there's very little evidence that non-Jedi commanders were, as a whole, any better than the Jedi, quite the opposite actually, when these non-Jedi commanders took over after the establishment of the Empire, Imperial military efficiency generally got *worse*. Tarkin is the best example of this, the Tarkin Doctrine was a massive failure and a major part of why the Empire fell as it was inflexible and couldn't react to Rebel tactics. There are of course exceptions, most notably Thrawn who thought Tarkin was a bit of a moron, but there were good Jedi generals too. The Jedi also had more of an excuse too since the Clone Wars kind of snuck up on them while Imperial commanders were experienced but still incompetent.

look no further than John Beatty in the battle of Jutland, who took his fleet of cruiser killer scout ships and used them as front line ships against German capital ships, mostly because he wanted the glory of sinking German ships. As such, he lost like 1/2 his ships, and sank 0 german ships.

@@ryanfreebody6881 bro you sound personally offended. Take a chill pill

Haha yeah pretty much. Great idea though

Basically a Victory built on the frame of a Venator

@@josesanchezrodriguez1783 so why not just use a victory… they were smaller and more space and rescorce efficient.

You’d also need to fix the goofy double bridges.

@@doughboidays3039 Take this idea to its logical conclusion: mount another weapon system, camouflaged, in the secondary bridge. Another SPHA-T would work if you're not feeling very creative.

in fairness the emphasis on bigger beefier capital ships wasn't because of any failing in the clone wars

The Empire actually had ships that compensated for the ISDs weak spots, but Lucasfilm just hates watching the Empire not being crushed in space battles.

Battleships are dumb, that's why we quit using them. Jets do most of the work now, so the starfighter would do that here. And the rest is handled by small boys like frigates, destroyers, and cruisers. If you take out a small boy you hurt the battle group. But if you take out a battleship you kill the fleet, like taking out a super carrier would today. Expect unlike a carrier a battleship doesn't have dozens of fighters protecting it, attacking you, and running interference along with the ones that are actually going on the hunt.

@@majinjason comparing space and naval combat isn't very smart

@@richardhicks5031 The Principles remain the same. A fighter is just a small, fast moving, hard to hit powerful gun/missile/bomb. Having hundreds of those vs 60 turbo laser is no contest. Why waste time and energy on cannons when fighters are your cannons? Also if you destroy the cannon, you damage the ship. If you destroy the fighter the ship is still fine. Instead we have space battle in sci-fi that mimic 1800s naval war. How is that better or make more sense?

For a safe and secure society

@@davidvasquez08 that will blow up your planet if you rebel.

@@fishyfinthing8854 lol

​@@fishyfinthing8854 peace is not a given, it has to be enforced. As I like to say whenever I am mayor in anomic: "empty streets are safe streets".

Outranged? Both Munnificent and Recusant had few heavier cannons, so they had to close in a bit anyway.

@@antonisauren8998 Nope, if you check their weapons the Munificents carried two heavy turbos while Recuscants had a couple more heavy turbos but nothing heavier that the VSD's heavy dual turbolasers. This is the quote the info about range comes from: Republic-allied engineers ensure Star Destroyers can be operated by a relatively small crew, and weapons designers have created more powerful turbolaser cannons with increased range and accuracy, giving the Republic Navy a strong advantage against Separatist warships. This comes from Star Wars Complete Vehicles New Edition, it's canon.

but it didnt

Lol, just what I was thinking, totally sounds like something Tarkin would do.

It's more a giant assault carrier meant to shrad the enemy with it's star fighters and escorts then if they are still alive pound them with their guns then make a space head on a planet... Or stay beyond range of the mainly battleship enemy and play star fighter games with them till hopefully they win.

Nope! You can mainly blame the jedi for this… sadly they made horrible generals/admirals.

In Jedi’s defense, they had extremely limited tools with how barren the Republic Navy was to begin the war. Venators were the best option for most of the war. If anyone is to blame, it’s Rendili for taking so long to finish the Victory and get it into service, by the time it was ready, the Republic already had formed most of its tactics. Even that’s unfair though, nobody was expecting the war to escalate this quickly.

@@Quecojo tbf the Jedi was put in such position as the plan of palpatine, it wasn't their request and they definitely not a war organization, the same way you wouldn't let Christian priests be war officers

I always felt like Rendili stole or borrowed from the Venator design when they first created the Victory. They were already looking to reduce the massive manpower requirement of fielding dreadnoughts and, after the Katana Fleet incident, were probably heavily marketing the Victory. With the GAR always on the back foot compared to the CIS when it came to man(droid)power, I can't imagine them being excited over dreadnoughts. I also only recall an example of 3 modified Katana Dreadnaughts locking down an ISD with ion cannon. I thought it took all 6 of them to actually challenge one in a straight up fight.

@@SkitFireS valid points, I didn't even think about the manpower issue. I assume there was some kind of advancement in technology between the Katana fleet disappearance since the Venator is over twice the size of a Dreadnaught but requires less than half the crew, but applying that advancement in technology to the Dreadnaught design would likely be about as much work as designing a whole new ship, so it makes sense they'd just move on to the Victory. If that problem could be solved though, I think the Dreadnaught's effectiveness is considerable. I used the battle for Katana fleet as the main measuring stick where 6 Dreadnaughts (and fighter support), were more or less evenly matched with 2 Star Destroyers, and were able to outright win thanks to Han ramming an additional Dreadnaught into one of the Star Destroyers, completely destroying it. The remaining Star Destroyer was able to escape but was stated as heavily damaged, implying to me the Dreadnaughts could have defeated it with enough time. The exact comparison of strength is hard to measure, the book implies the battle could have gone much worse before Han rammed the extra Dreadnaught into the ISD, but if Dreadnaughts can even compete with an ISD, then they should have no trouble dealing with the much more fragile bulk of the CIS navy like Munificent and Recuscant cruisers, while leaving the fighters to a Venator's interceptor compliment and the heavier ships like the Providence and Lucrehulks to strike craft and the Venator's Turbo lasers.

This is the best response. Agreed.

@@Kairyu_Gen1 Carrack is more modern, less crew intensive cruiser for the republic. WEG stats give it similar main battery, shields and armor, with double speed and 1/15 crew. There is no need to build new dreadnaughts by Clone Wars era. Those who serve, are PDF remnants from past era.

There were 2 variants of the Victory class. The Victory ll was more designed for front line ship to ship combat.

Certainly. A thousand years of no war and not having a functional standing military would lead to incredible institutional decay on any states ability to wage a war. A state wouldn't have anyone whom would have the slightest clue how to organize and lead such a large military. As bad as it was to put the Jedi in charge of the GAR, given how long it had been since the last war, regular military admirals and generals would not have done any better.

@@ryuukeisscifiproductions1818 That would also explain that one time where clones ran at savage, most of them not even getting a shot off before they died.

They also had 4000 years of detailed and recorded naval battles and warfare to look to. It’s not the same as actual experience but it’s still something. Enough to know how to build fleets and basics of naval engagement

@@Daedalus33 so did the jedi enclave, but just because there are the basics available for people, it doesn't mean people will properly study them much less bother to. There is also the issue of practical experience, it's easy to tell people how to fight, a lot harder to implement it especialy when having to do it in the middle of a battlefield. Certainly, officers who studied suh battle tactics and space warfare, might be able to do well, but that is if you know the enemies battle style and tactics. There is also the issue that some of the enemy commanders have more experience than the admirals of the republic, several cis members had already honed their tactics, when the republic had only just started in the war. only a few admirals had the actual experience against pirates, but the cis commanders fought in actual wars before becoming apart of the cis.

So, the Interdictors?

@@michaelandreipalon359 good point

Turbolasers and torpedo facilities, with inproved shields. That little bastard would tear you a new A.

The side hangars would stay but the main one wouldn’t.

@@mapleflag6518 That's the plan with such refit. While the Side and Bottom hangars and the Bridges would be remaining, the redesign for a Battleship Venator would use that space to either add new Turbolaser/Ion Cannon Batteries (and/or even rearrange the Heavy Turbolasers the Venators have already so they cover more of the Ship) as well as Reinforced Hulls and Stronger Shields

Why not build a whole new class better optimized for frontline role? That new variant would require so many alterations that it would be cheaper to start a whole new class. When you need to replace critical components like reactor ( Venator's reactor output was just enough to operate all it systems) then it is not worth it.

@@huntermad5668 Then it would not be ready for the Clone Wars or it would be coming too late to make a difference

while I love the venator, it would be a terrible space ship for combat. In space, when every ton counts, multiroles arent great. a dedicated carrier can carry more space planes and a dedicated anti ship platform can have tons upon tons of more guns. Say you have 50k tons to work with, 20k tons of that is going to be engines (40% is pretty typical for both sea faring vessels and in most scifi space vessels) so you really got 30k tons left. I dont know how hyperspace works in starwars so im going to just assume that you need a dedicated hyperspace engine as obiwan had that ring that he attached to his ship to go into hyperspace. so thats another 5 to 10 tons. Now youre only down to 25k tons, another 5-10k on armor so now youre at 20k and you havent even added any weapons or sensor systems. Now youre at an impasse, you could only give it the bare minimum of sensors for maybe 2-5k tons and then the ship can at least see whats in range, or you could make it a "multirole" and give it kickass sensors to see the entire system its in, but then thats going to be 10k tons more. And at that, your 50k ton super battleship is only 10k tons of guns

​@@agentbarron3945 the hyperdrive would be build inside the main engines, notice how the X-wing used its engines to travel normally and in hyperspace. I think the republic needed to multirole because of the suddenness of the conflict. The Venator worked well enough within its assigned roles, it was when overzealous leaders drove them into enemy fire that it couldn't survive by itself.

Seriously, the Venators would have made great fleet mates of Imperial-class. You could even cut most of the Imperial's hanger/troop space and make it smaller. Or give it more guns, your choice. You could also remove a few turrets from the Venator to free up space and maybe even connect up the hangers. As the Venator could do any carrier/transport role far better, and still possess enough firepower to handle almost any Rebel battlegroup if the Imp goes down (provided any Mon Cala cruisers present where destroyed/fled). Through in a couple of Victory 1's, (The 2's lost most of the missiles/torpedoes and where basically mini imps, and one Imp (especially if it's a 2 or Tector) is enough to handle most Rebel battlegroups, and I'd prefer to rely on additional AA guns and the Venator's strikecraft to protect the Imps against hostile strikecraft) For long range missile support and a close escort for the Venator, and suddenly the Rebellion (or anyone else for that matter) are going to have a much harder go of things.

I think just placing the turrets in less restricted areas would make a big difference. Also placing some flaks on the underside, and hooking up the side hangars with the main one, and getting rid of the door would help

​​​​​@@johnnowak4620 I would perma delete the ventral (except on dedicated assault/carrier variants) hanger and put a big f**k off gun (or two/four if feasible, a pair or two of SPHATs should be enough to give anyone/thing second thoughts about diving under to escape the mainguns/torpedo batteries) there, additional shielding units, and more power generation (if needed, the Venator's reactor was very powerful for it's time). It's not like it was used very often or would significantly impact the number of embarkable strike craft.

Pretty much. Especially with Tarkin influencing their military decisions.

And y wings

And clones

Hell everything they had was an advantage but with gaps , they only lacked a powerful battleship esk one and needed better smaller ships for escort and screening than the arquitens and c70

Nah, the only real advantage the republic has is that Darth Sidious control everything and he needs the republic to win to take over it later

@Geetsly's we got scam bots

The Invisible Hand had just had it's fuel cells ruptured by Obi Wan and Anakin in a deleted scene which was causing the equivalent of internal bleeding for a star ship. The Venator's barrage got an extremely lucky shots where they take out a proton cannon. That explosion cause further damage causing the ship to go critical (we literally see droids on the bridge explode due to the explosions in the ship)

The GAR needed the Victory II and the Imperator (aka, the Imperial). But the Victory II was a post war design and Palpatine deliberately hid and slowed the design and fielding of the Imperator.

Go away Separatist clanka

Didn't Eckhart's Ladder do a similar video on that?

Slugthrower gatlings won't work on space though.

@@michaelandreipalon359 Technically you can say Newtonian physics says they could just lob hyperaccelerated projectiles at a target. You just have to hope they actually hit, or you have live ammo floating through space until it DOES hit something.

Exactly, the main hangar of the Venator, resembles aircraft carriers, which the only objective was launch aircraft as a means of air support/air superiority.

Exactly, the main hangar of the Venator, resembles aircraft carriers, which the only objective was launch aircraft as a means of air support/air superiority.

You forget that a Venater can't operate inside an atmosphere! That's what Acclamators are for! Hell, before House of Mouse ruined 'Wars and turned it into the unrecognizable Disney Wars no Star Destroyer (except a Victory-Class - and only the base model, the Victory-II-Class ISD also couldn't!) could operate within an atmosphere, it was what made the Victory-Class special...and what made Grand-Moff Tarkin use one to literally crush a few thousand protesters by landing his ship on them!

@DreaningFlurry : **Forgets the venators that were in the atmosphere of the 2nd Battle of Geonosis AND LANDED on both Coruscant and Kashyyyk in Revenge of the Sith.**

@@Cody_L._Brock I was just thinking that.

You are correct, and the Empire would eventually adopt this general strategy of using Imperial-Class Star Destroyers as their primary front line battleship, with dedicated carriers behind them like the Quasar-Fire and Ton Folk (as well as other specialized ships like Lancer Frigates that filled roles the Imperial-Class wasn't optimized for), but this was only over 23 years of experience and development, the Republic didn't have that kind of time, it had to come up with a fleet capable of at least competing with the Separatists (who Geetsly's have explained had an amazing fleet design in other videos) in as short of a time period as possible. Best way to do that was to make a few simple designs that filled multiple roles, and the Venator did that exceptionally well. Geetsly's is correct it had its flaws, hence why it was phased out later when better designs could be made, but it did its job and Legends and Canon both take inspiration from it for the future.

A tri droid couldn't bring its guns to bear on a venator, the venator would, have to be in atmosphere, and then the tri droid would have to be on a cliff under it, however a hundred of them couldn't get through a single venators shields, but if it was unshielded eventually they'd be able to get through, but that can be said for any weapon, even a blaster pistol

The underside of a Venator tanked the combined fire of four Munificent Frigates in Storm Over Ryloth. The Tri Droid would do nothing to it.

A single one wouldn’t have much of an effect A squadron of them would

@@josesanchezrodriguez1783 That was plot armour, they couldn't actually take that.

The Battle of Mandalore of course While it belongs officially to Disney's Canon. Filoni was actually planning Season 7 (as part of Season 6 which became the Lost Missions) and even the entire plot of Rebels. long before Lucasfilm was even bought by Disney. So his work can be considered as part of the Original Canon as well

@@alpha34098 I disagree. Filoni retconned so many things about legends pre-disney (including Republic Commando, stuff about ARC troopers, stuff about Ventress, Star Wars Galaxies, etc) that fitting his stuff with old stuff simply doesn't work

Something to remember is that there will never be a “perfect” warship. A ship with zero weaknesses will undoubtedly be too expensive to mass produce and will never be able to justify its cost over building multiple, cheaper ships that cover each other’s weaknesses.

Thank you for the like and Silver the Hedgehog is still awesome.

Keep in mind this was all planned by the Sith. But for a less cop-out explanation: The Trade Federation used increasing pirate attacks (and lots of money) as a way of getting special permission to up-gun thier ships. Other CIS groups used lack of Republic oversight in the Outer Rim to hide thier actions. Meanwhile the main Republic shipyards where under extreme scrutiny (because they where in the Core and because the future CIS was secretly paying people off to put them under additional scrutiny).

Space is much different from our oceans, logically battleships seem they would be more popular in star wars given the infinite line of sight space provides

@@joshuahadley776 yes but with a carrier you can deliver attacks from multiple directions and overwhelm their defenses. You also have superior reconnaissance capabilities with smaller ships like the ARC 170 and not have to risk your entire carrier scouting out locations.

@@rc59191 I mean why even have carriers with hyperspace capable fighters, if you need recon just send fighters, the occasional utility of fighters doesn’t erase the power of big gun

id take a modernized Harrower better gun batteries and almost the same amount of strikecraft and a less exposed bridge

The reason battleships are no longer used is because they could no longer fill their roles. Their whole job was to be a wall of guns and prevent the enemy from advancing to the softer targets. We now have missiles carried by destroyers that could take one out in two or three hits from beyond their range. The destroyers are cheaper faster and carries more than enough of a payload to wipe out a few battleships. Carriers are used now because they can deliver these explosive payloads at much further range than even the destroyers, along with support craft and troops. Star wars still has a need for battleships because most fleet battles follow the same rules as ww2 just on a three dementional field instead of two. I'm not trying to be mean or anything just thought you should know.

And left the troop carrying to the Acclamators. Would have freed up a fair amount of space for more fighters or guns.

I have always thought the same but I think this refers to how much space it has like "it can fit 20 school buses" because yeah the eta 2 is a terrible ship to use unless you are a jedi. It is so fast that you will probably kill yourself if you don't have the reflexes of a jedi and it doesn't have shields because the jedi use the force to redirect the shots

I doubt the accuracy of whatever source claims it carried that many Etas, as no depiction in media ever shows Clones piloting them.

@@Kairyu_Gen1 it's literally on the Wookiepedia as part of both canon and legends

@@alexravex4575 wookiepedia is only as accurate as its sources and should not automatically be taken as gospel. Star Wars is famous for contradicting itself with things like logistical numbers.

@@Kairyu_Gen1 Those stats are taken directly from wet dream of Curtis Saxton, called RotS Cross sections. He got only the movie concepts to work with and probably couldn't mention much of the EU, even if he knew it outside of Dark Empire backgrounds. :P Also at that time, we only had Torrents as older interceptors. Z-95 and Y-wings were described as old republic designs but never shown in GAR before 2005.

It does at least seem like the venators get portrayed as more carrier-like than the OT's ISDs. Which is pretty amusing when it gives the impression that the GAR was making the mistake of using a carrier to fight battles intended for battleships, while the ISDs were battleships where the Empire seemed to need more fighter spam. Murphy's Law in space you could say...

Pretty much the shows fault. The battles in the 3d show seemed smaller in the beginning seasons.

Tbh thats not really a problem with the ship, that was a choice from the show maker, not a limitation of the ship

To be fair in the 2003 clone wars they primarily showed the acclamator deploying hundreds of ships.

A shortage of fighters and pilots might have something to do with that.

Just makings ure that this is the actual thing from you and not something like a bot/spam. So just reply to confirm if so.

There is already a Victory 2, although not much is known of it.

Umm, which Essex are you talking about? The only WW2 era Essex I can think of never had 8 inch guns. The older Lexington class did have 8 inch guns, but they were removed in 1938 (or was it 39?). They had originally been designed and laid down as battlecruisers with 16 inch guns before being converted to carriers (some of the U.S's first) as part of the Washington Naval Treaty. There was also the IJN Kaga (originallya battleship hull), but it too lost it's 6 inch in the late 30's. The only aircraft carrier I can think of that retained a "big" gun armament throughout it's life was the Graf Zeppelin and it's 6 inch guns. Which was never completed or commissioned. And it only had them because the Germans were 20 years behind in all naval architecture but submarines.

ISDs can go into atmosphere mate, have you seen rogue one?

So what if they need orbital shipyards, the Alliance needed them too and it was expensive and impractical to use airstrips

@@tk-6967 the venator didn't always need an orbital shipyard, maybe sometimes it does but not always.

@@tk-6967 by the way i did say earlier it could fly in atmosphere.

@@CloneScavengerVulpin8389 Yeah, but being able to use a ground strip isn't helpful when you are that big. It is excessive and isn't at all helpful

That's why Venator Captains always to go under the Enemy if it gets too close to it