What are your thoughts on the Boxing style they used to do in the past? Watch next: Olympic Boxer Reacts to your Boxing Training Videos kzfaq.info/get/bejne/i7V3nsKLyJe5f40.html

From my research (for a college paper in an athletic trainer course), gloves were introduced when rich kids started boxing and didn't want marks on their faces. So the trainer had them wear an early version of a boxing glove. The research I found showed the glove disperses the force of a punch, reducing the likelihood of a knockout. However, because the fighter can withstand more blows to the head without being knocked out, the likelihood of brain injury from repeated trauma is increased.

My grandfather was an undefeated amateur boxer with over 50 fights. He was born around 1905. My uncle said they used kid gloves, basically leather gloves with no padding. My uncle said my grandfather won with speed, head movement and knockouts by left hooks to the liver. That makes me think holding the right arm in close to the body was to protect this vulnerable area.

They got that “Why I oughta!” stance 😂

The golden age stance makes me think of fencing, with one hand extended towards the opponent like a rapier, and the other kept close to the body like a buckler.

Tony corrected himself the second time he mentioned it but when he first said 1983 he meant to say 1893

This is how they should teach history class

On the "lack of footwork," I think it was another optimization for the conditions. Fighting on sand or grass, you don't get the firm grip and level surface necessary to make modern style footwork effective. It's hard to even judge how nuanced their footwork was because we don't have 19th century tape. If something worked, they probably adopted it. We talk about the 'evolution' of technique over centuries as progress, but as you say, 90% of the difference is just changing context. I'd wager a few decades is enough for a vibrant community to bring the art to the point of diminishing returns, where the question becomes solely the talent and dedication of the athletes and trainers.

It's actually a really good stance if you're taller than your opponent or if you have a longer wingspan. My cousin is like 6'3 and does this stance. It helps him maintain a sort of distance against his opponent denying them the ability to reach in for a hit

Old boxing matches were far more like modern MMA matches just fought in a sand ring(with far loose safety regulations) and lasted as long as the fighters wanted. Usually, it wasn't a well-organized affair and was locally arranged in carnivals and other public gatherings and it was also illegal in the US for a long time so it wasn't nearly as well known there as in Europe. Most boxing matches of the early 1800s were conducted under the "London Rules," which were based on a set of rules laid down by an English boxer, Jack Broughton, in 1743. The basic premise of the Broughton Rules, and the subsequent London Prize Ring Rules, was that a round in a fight would last until a man went down. And there was a 30-second rest period between each round. Following the rest period, each fighter would have eight seconds to come to what was known as the "scratch line" in the middle of the ring. The fight would end when one of the fighters could not stand, or could not make it to the scratch line. Theoretically, there was no limit to the number of rounds fought, so fights could go on for dozens of rounds. And because the fighters punched with bare hands, they could break their own hands by attempting knock-out punches to their opponent's heads. So matches tended to be long battles of endurance.

Five things need to be mentioned additionally: 1) Stepping in with the punch was something that was a thing (you see it later with for example Jack Dempsey matches). 2) Other punches were permitted such as hammer strikes, back fists etc. 3) My two cents but feet were more firmly planted to generate more powerful blows while fighting bare knuckled (rather than swivelling on the balls of the feet for power generation, something which you can do with gloves more easily). 4) Vertical punches were far more common. 5) It's far easier to dodge punches while bare knuckle.

Around here, street fighters that learned to fight on the street - as opposed to learning to box and then transferring the skillset to the street - still use a similar kind of stance and principles (minus the leaning back, usually). It obviously works for gloveless, full-contact fighting, and in a quite natural way.

This is very interesting ! It's interesting to see that when there was no gloves, the primary target was the body and grappling was involved, old boxing stances are astoundingly similar to old forms of karate. Also in old Muay Thai and Muay Boran there used to be stances like this, before boxing gloves became the norm.

Pretty good summary there. I have studied classical pugilism for quite some years now and you are on the money. Back in the day boxing more like Lethwei. You had throws such as the cross buttock to land your opponent on their head. You also had locks and chancery allowing you to hold your opponent and hit him. Key targets were the eyes since a blinded opponent - due to the knuckles - could not fight. The other target was the 'mark' or the solar plexus as we call it. You can hit full force to this so they had the rear hand there protecting it as it was the key knockout shot. Another one from the LPR days was a long hook impacting behind the ear with the large knuckles of the hand. Oh, and rounds were not timed. They ended when someone went down and then had 30 secs to 'come up to scratch'. You had a picture of Jem Mace as a former champion of England (Gypsy Jem Mace). He used to take bets in pubs that he could punch through the 1" thick oak door panels.....

You should review the book Championship Streetfighting: Boxing as a Martial Art by Ned Beaumont. It’s a funny, quick read packed with interesting boxing history and an explanation of why boxers of old used the style they did.

The part about grappling makes sense to me. Having your hands lower helps defend against take downs. You see a lot of mma fighters use a modified version of the left hand extended/rights hand chambered at the cheek. Dan Henderson was famous for it.

This stance still works exceptionally well: 1) Front arm for distance creation, stuffing forward momentum with a collarbone press/check, guards that side by position and distance, good for clapping an ear on a fallback step if they overextend with their own jab. 2) Rear arm is essentially always loaded and ensures your strongest punch from a pure physics perspective is always ready to go, protects all the bones of the thorax, can easily be dropped and turned to protect other rib cage from kicks and strikes, then immediately brought back leaving very little opening without having your opponent expose themselves well into your guard 3) keeps you in a very strong hiploading position, giving you the ability to always have a heavy kick threat and or knee ready to be delivered if they try to "shoot" your legs. With proper footwork and distance control, it's arguably better than a lot of even modern stances. This is particularly true when you dont have rules to protect you -- the modern squared up stance is really bad in a street fight because you loose all kick threat and it opens you up to being double-leg thrown or sweeped insanely bad, which, now that I think about it is basically how I've seen every decent boxer Ive known lose a fight, actually.

If you simply turn the lead hand over, rather than holding it in the supinated position while extended, it's almost a karate stance, if/when the stance is bladed. Stephen "Wonder Boy" comes to mind. He keeps that lead hand extended like that with the palm facing out. There are still glimpses of that old school style in kickers.

Pretty great how those old dudes made boxing look like a gentleman's sport, when it was likely far from it.

I absolutely enjoyed your accent. Not trying to sound youtubish for the masses but rather enjoying the portrayal of fights as you spoke. Some true frontman attitude right there. I'm not even into such sports, just stumbled upon this.

Tony my man, this is amazing info! So valuable to understand the history, reasons for rules, and have such an in depth understanding of the sport.

The stance thing is interesting in that Mendoza and some of his peers advocated a more squared stance with both hands held up to protect the head during the time when grappling was allowed, and the bladed stance we usually consider the "old-timey pugilist's stance" actually became popular when grappling was removed from boxing.

Was randomly recommended this video and I gotta say - glad for it. Love boxing but also love your energy Tony, awesome vid man!

Strangers that are far from box: "Punching someone without gloves can cause damage to their head!" Pro boxers: "Punching someone without gloves can hurt my hands"

This channel is gonna blow up as long as you keep the information density up. This is amazing

Tony, I love that you did this for us. What an amazing history lesson.

As a muay Thai practitioner, It would be great to see a pros/cons video of how different stances will fare in a pure boxing match.

This is the most exciting, inspiring, channel that I’ve arrived at recently. As an old time martial artist I am very keen to keep my game going . Learning new technique, going over footwork, which is my favorite and being enthralled on a rainy Copenhagen Sunday …. Well I thank you 🙏 edit reminds me a of wing chun stance

Absolutely loved this video! Especially enjoyed the historical facts at the very end! Keep up the good work, much love from Oregon USA ✌️

I think this really expresses the difference fighting sports in a way.. Because rules create a foundation for the fighting style.. Like these guys, with no round limits, and not wanting to risk breaking their hands, they leave their face very exposed to facilitate essentially just beating each other's body to a pulp until someone gives up or cannot continue. These guys are very tough but it's just a completely different sport, they wouldn't last long in a modern boxing ring and a modern boxer wouldn't survive against these guys either. I wonder if they used karate-style ways of conditioning their hands

Tony Jeffries, I learned classical Shaolin Kung-Fu. We also teach a similar type of guard for fighting. We have many guards taught from fist to palms but the old boxing guard is similar to our most basic fighting guard. The fighting rules of engagement taught to me were that headshots were not as common for friendly exchanges in Chinese martial arts. Very interesting to see old-school boxers and how they held their hands. We can also use the front arm to help gauge distance from the opponent.

Great video Tony, I love boxing history. I’m a senior Canadian who trained at Billy Irwin’s club in Niagara Falls. Billy was British Commonwealth champion way back.

I love the history of boxing that you’re teaching. Very informative!

5:29 holy crap what fight was this it looked action packed but also violent as hell

Tony made a lot of good points in the video. One of the reasons the fighters back then held the one arm to the side and across the middle of their body was to protect against liver shots (if right handed) and to protect the “mark” (solar plexus). A good punch to either spot could result in a knockout. Vertical fist punches tended to result in less broken hands and less tweaked wrists, as striking with the last three knuckles like Dempsey says lines the bones up better. One reason the fight‘s back then had so many rounds is that a fall would end the round. Sometimes if you wanted to take a break, you could grapple and throw your opponent, thus ending the round. Some of the rounds didn’t last very long due to a knock down or a throw. Of course, seven hours is a heck of a long fight, no matter how many breaks you get. They were some tough people back then for sure.

Amazing vídeo, Tony! Energetic, fast, full of interesting facts PLUS crazy facts! You're a good comunicator! Thanks for the video!

Thank you for this video. I've always wondered about this!

Favorite KZfaq coach! Respect to my man 🙏🙌 . Keep up the grind💪💪🥊🏆

Brilliant video, man. I have this old book, I can't remember the title, but it has all these ringside reports from the golden age of boxing, and yeah, while there were many horrific strikes to the head and face, there were also many, many descriptions of how people would break their fingers or hands, so indeed there must have been a kind of "sweet spot" people would aim for, where they're striking hard enough to end a match, without destroying their bones in the process. Brilliant content as always.

I cannot say this emphatically enough: PHENOMENAL video!!! Thank you Tony! Big fan, love your videos, and appreciate the information! SUPER interesting! Hope you have a great day man!

Great to see You in excellent shape and still giving away advice, tips and interesting content for the younger generations - or just simple "curiosities" and facts from History! It's always very nteresting. Glad to see how your Channel have grown! 🙂 Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year, to You and Family, Tony! PS. Best Regards from Poland.

Well after a quick google it is 1893 where the longest match of 110 rounds took place… I mean between reading the line and editing the text in you would think that obvious error would be caught

I've always wondered why. Thanks for sharing!

Fascinating. Thank you! I love this video. So informative.

Just just showed up as a random video to watch, and I'm glad I watched it. Not a boxer myself but I do love the sport so it was cool to watch this history lesson..

Tony, well said! You have no idea how delighted I am to hear somebody say (more or less) what I have always thought. I raised this very same point before (on another site) and nobody got it, the armchair warriors were out in numbers but not in any kind of force I would be worrying about?. The difference between fighting with gloves and bare-knuckle is massive. One well-timed jab (without gloves) can knock somebody on their arse, if you consider the angle of the 'old fighters' they were not set up for a jab so much as a jabbing 'undercut', you would get that fist straight into your teeth, lips and philtrum (lower nose), an awful blow, just one might settle the battle because you might have been knocked down, spitting teeth, blood pouring back your nostrils and eyes just teared up so you can't see properly. To the people who never fought full-contact and say 'that's old school' I say there was a very good reason and you should be glad you personally never got 'schooled' I can honestly say I 'paid my dues' in sweat and blood and broken bones but 'eff me backwards, I could never come close to what some of those fighters were, my god! That is a good point about gloves and head guards too. Just like the USA footballers, the protection of helmets just meant they get hit hard for longer. Their is no boxer I know that wears his gloves in the street, as much as I love boxing as a sport, I have never considered it wasn't a lethal martial art that had been led astray?

Something not mentioned is that old timey boxers didn’t really duck and weave. You could block punches but it was considered unsporting to dance around. When slipping became a thing, the guard moved back towards the body

Congratulations on the million subs Tony. I wish you all the best and I got nothing but love and respect for you brother

One of the best videos I've watched in a long time. Thanks

This was fascinating!! And very well presented. I always wondered why boxers from the past had that stance and hand position. I learned a lot. Thanks for this. Cheers!

Wow, what a great video! I've always wonder why the rigid stance with the inverted fists. This was very interesting and informative Tony. I love to watch black and white 15 rounds old fights. My 3 favorite all time pugilists are Kid Gavilan, Wilfredo Benitez and most recently Andy Lee.

Correct. And this is why the guard in eg karate still looks like this and why it protects the fist both with hand conditioning (makiwara) and favouring straight punches. It assumes no gloves. This is not well understood.

This is one of my favorite channels!!! I always wondered about this stance! I knew it had something to do with gloves but I had NO IDEA ABOUT BOXERS BEING ABLE TO GRAPPLE!!! So so cool!

Thank you for covering this. House of Devlin and Pugilisticus Britannicus have good videos on KZfaq about these old techniques. Truly a lost art that doesn't get the spotlight it deserves. Also, American Prize Ring on KZfaq actually does fights under the London Prize Ring ruleset.

They must have had an UNGODLY amount of stamina to go for 100+ rounds that's just insane to even think about!

0:34 "CRAZY CRAZY FUCKED!" His accent makes the video 5x better lmao

Tony i love your videos so much thank you for all the tips and im learning a lot

Thanks coach Tony! it was a great history I learned from boxing👍, a man can fight that long for 7hrs, without refusing to give up, now I believed that man's will, will make a difference in his life.

I love this video especially since I've been watching old boxers. Tony is there any way you could please break down Joe Lewis's deadly right hand and the funky way he threw it and lifted his back right foot when throwing it. I'm still figuring out WHAT EXACTLY and how did he have that much power behind that punch. Love your videos I appreciate all your hard work on these videos for us!

Not really into historical boxing myself, but Bartitsu was originally developed in England in 1898-1902 and footwork was king back then too, and not only for the Savate kicks and cane work it included, but as well for the basics of boxing. So I am pretty sure that foot work as king back in the golden days for boxing too. But considering how many people forget about foot work even today ... I am sure that problem was at least just as common back then.

Thanks Tony, that was pretty informative and interesting..

Old-school boxing concepts still show up from time to time. George Foreman's "long guard" style and Rorberto Duran's "punching wrestler" styles would have been well at home in the older days of boxing, methinks (just modified to account for the lack of wraps and gloves.

From what I understand, the older style was more about protecting yourself from body shots rather then the head. When it came to bare knuckle vs the head, the bones in the hand will break against the skull most of the time. I’ve been told by a bud that gloves add weight to the punch. Adding more force while also protecting the hands an lessening the chances of cutting, which is why Modern Boxing focuses on guarding the head rather then the body cause of the gloves saving the hands.

Thanks for the content, Tony!

Great stuff Tony! Keep it coming!

Great videos mr tony,as usual

I like the traditional boxing style. Notbing like getting schooled by classic gentlemen fighting.

Taking up Muay Thai but found your channel very helpful in improving my form. Thank you. I'm subscribing.

I don’t know much about boxing, but this was very interesting and informative. Thank you.

As someone who boxes a bit myself I can get how not using gloves may actually be less damaging. The gloves give you the freedom to throw every punch full force without injury to your hand. But punching without it you're way more cautious as a full force jap or swing hurts or can even break something; especially against a hard skull. It's also more concentrated while a gloves has a much larger surface area causing the punch to hit more of you than a fist. That extra force a boxer can add into a punch is often more than any protection the glove padding will give you who gets hit with it; esp when every punch isn't held back. You feel the wallop on every hit when you spar. I got knocked in the head twice recently by a decent fighter in a spar, and I was wearing head gear and still had vertigo for like 2 days. I've been punched raw in the head before and it didn't have as much impact.

Joe Louis had the perfect mix of old and new in his style

Excellent video thank you. Also your description of the Onnit products was exceptional. I already use their stuff and it truly good sh!t.

Super interesting! Awesome video dude!

My answer to the question before having watched your explanation: In the old way the arms point directly towards the target and do not have to be re-adjusted to hit right away. Additionally a fist seen from the front is way less visible than fists raised in a modern guard position, so it is harder for the oponent to tell if a punch is coming. Now into the video: punching the skull with bare hands? Bad idea. As you said: high risk of hurting your hand. Punch jaw angle. Much safer for the hands as it is a softer target. In fact a k.o. happens way less often in bare knuckle boxing.

Just one thing Tony, the 111 rounds fight was in 1893, not 1983 😅

The arc of boxing is a phenomenal book that details all of this

Amazing content. Incredible topic 🔥

You know... I love martial arts history. Boxing to me is a martial art... people don't really talk much about boxing history. Thank for the lesson!

Great video Tony! I tried unsuccessfully to articulate a question to you about this style of boxing. I incorrectly thought it was an eastern European style. Your video more than answered all my questions, thanks.

always love to hear you talk

this was an amazing video, thank you for explaining this.

This is a very interesting topic. I've always wondered why the old time boxers used that stance. Those guys were tough as nails. They would go until someone got knocked out, physically couldn't take any more damage or they became to exhausted to go on. Thanks for posting! 👍✌

So much that I wouldn't of considered. Thank you for your insight

Great video mate,cheers✌️

My thought is that Queensbury destroyed the European martial arts with his rules for boxing. It was once a full fledged martial art like a hands focused karate (before karate was broken in half to remove most of it's grappling.) There are a couple of mma fighters who use classic boxing stances. It allows for high volume of punches using less gas than modern boxing. It also had take down defense.

Just as a note from someone who does historical martial arts---most old sources don't include footwork because it was assumed you were learning as someone with a background in the sport. Footwork was usually an assumed skill in these types of texts.

Great video. Thank you!

Really interesting video. I’m not a fighter. I don’t think I’ve hit anyone for 35 years but it’s fascinating to see people with that skill talking about a subject. Especially scary to people that don’t do it. Really great stuff.

This video and Jesse Enkemps video are very informative on the old boxing style. I practice karate and you immediately notice this stance get used a lot. It is actually more versatile than a modern boxing stance or mai tai stance because of the balance distribution. this allows for all around performance in punching, kicking and movement. Where as boxing is best for punching and movement and Mai tai is best for defense, and striking, especially close quarters. Mai tai guys use kicks elbows and knees that can basically one shot you and have a very affective defense through hand placement and low center of gravity but when it comes to moving in and out they are limited because there feet placement is very stocky. Mai tai is probably the best martial art for fighting in the ring because you can't run away from your opponent. With karate and boxing you can move around a lot more and in an open field have an advantage in a fight as long as you keep good distance management. Boxing also can be better because even though kicks are always stronger than punches they can be countered and become a detriment when you miss. Kungfu is best for weapons applications and is such a large study of martial arts that it some ways diverges from practical fighting by over emphasizing certain fighting philosophies that are affective and interesting but aren't affective unless you have very good fighting strategy beyond the necessary strategy needed for other martial arts.

From what I've heard from FightTips (I believe, it's been a while), that old boxing stance in Ireland was also implemented to focus on palmstrikes and scratching. I might be remembering this wrong though.

Thanks Tony, we like to think that we today are better and brighter than folks in the past. Your Video is a great demonstration that if you know the realities of the time, people often had good reasons to do things that might seem silly today. 111 Rounds.. Just amazing.

Just come across your channel a couple weeks ago, fantastic content Tony!

Very good video. Old Pugilists of the 18th and 19th Century did condition their hands and knuckles similar to some karate styles. Also their striking technique was bit different to modern Boxing and they tried to land more bodyshots. Also Hammerfists and Backfists were allowed among a lot of other stuff. When you check out the Broughton Rules introduced 1743 by Jack Broughton, the student of famous James Figg, then you see that more techniques were allowed than prohibited. Athough the fists were their main weapons, the ruleset did let them do elbow strikes and headbutts. And more importantly, they did wrestling techniques like the cross-buttock, backheel and other things. Punching in the clinch, rabbit-punches and other things considered a foul or "dirty boxing" today, were allowed back then. Famous Daniel Mendoza was beaten under these rules, because his opponent grabbed Mendoza´s long hair (many Prizefighters preferred shaving their heads because of that) and punched him into submission. So many other techniques were allowed, that the old Pugilists had to adress other than today´s boxers. Many fighters had to take care of their hands, because fighting was not their main income. Some were like "professionals", with a rich person financing their fights, but many had to work besides their fighting. Imagine you have broken hands and then your main income as a carpenter, blacksmith, dock worker etc. is at risk. One important points about the many rounds they count back then: A round ended, when a fighter was down on his knees, so some did use a throw to end a round and get a short break (plus create some damage) or they stumbled, got knocked down a bit and went down on one knee or such. So do not imagine these 100 rounds being like 100 2 or 3 minute rounds. But fights could take long and the fighters maiming each other slowly with bare knuckles. So the stance has various reasons: It was coming from the art of fencing, so fighting with Backsword and Smallsword, which the early Pugilists took the theory for fencing with the fists from. Therefore they used a lot of parrys or blocks, like in Karate, using the forearm to parry. Also when they were striking, they often did a lunge, so like a long fencing falling step to get power behind. Again this guard had also the reason to better protect against bodyshots, but also to prevent grappling attempts better. However these old bw-photos show often later 19th Century fighters. In the older days of Broughton and Mendoza, so 1700 - 1840s, they often used closer guards depending on style and preference. Daniel Mendoza was known for his more square and crouched stance. Also because he was a lighter fighter in a a time, when they had no weight classes. So this all plays a role.

Cool video! You're very knowledgeable....I just learned a lot from this video, very interesting! 😁

Great info, thanks!

This was really cool! I can really see its influence in Bartitsu! What are your thoughts Oleksandr Usyk? He's become something of a favorite of mine since I learned about him a few months ago.

Thank you for teaching me something today. I always wondered why the old-time boxers boxed like that. Now I know. Mystery solved

Brilliant channel mate

That was great! Thank you.

Years ago I read several books on boxing history and the explanation I remember for this particular hand position was because it was considered cowardly or unmanly to move your head to avoid punches. I don't remember if the rules reflected this, but they would probably be spoken to by the referee if they did this. This "sword and shield" type fighting is seen in karate which was highly influenced by this style of boxing when karate was evolving into what it is today.