I have a close relative on upwork in Africa. She's smart, works over 12 hours a day makes peanuts and her health is waning as a result. Never has any money and always stressed and broke. I think its a useless platform. A slave market.

One more problem with upwork. Often clients will refuse to pay and report you to upwork saying that you did not compleate the job or did something else. Upwork will refund them and you get a negative mark

My wife tried it. The clients appreciated someone who spoke English and listened to instruction. She got contact info for steady work, went true freelance. But in the end, the fee, the constant changes and undercutting has made it garbage.

correction, you don't get free connects per month anymore in Upwork.

Upwork is a race to the bottom in price unfortunately. I think I've heard you say that before as well. Will check this out later. Hope you're doing well!

Reputation still counts for something AND a lot of clients will get burned by "cheaper" developers until they understand that. At the start of my career I couldn't get a job as an engineer on the local market so I started doing freelance gigs on upwork. After 6 months I understood that there are plenty of clients out there that got burned by this race to the bottom and that are willing to pay a decent rate for good work. It did take me 6 months to get to that level but I was earning double what engineers were making locally. The real problem with upwork is middlemen who will post jobs for other clients and who will try to undercut you on your rate. It's extremely difficult to tell which jobs are genuine and which are from middlemen. Sometimes I found offers that had 2 or 3 middlemen in the process. So you can imagine that I was making 50% or less of what I should. The best part of upwork is that if you find a really good client and they have many projects on the pipeline, it's not impossible to sign a contractor agreement with them afterwards and get rid of upwork's fees :D

so great to see you post about stuff like this, as someone coming into the industry hoping to freelance/go remote it's extremely helpful - thank you!

Just wait until LinkedIn makes this a feature.

Also, Upwork has the right to block your account is not obliged to inform you about the reason, which will lead to you losing any money that's left on your account.

I'm a freelance writer on Upwork and I totally agree. They do lots of things in favor of the client to the point where you can lose your shirt from how unfair it is. Clients can easily add requirements AFTER you win the job. They don't have to be specific and nothing can stop them from giving you a ridiculous amount of extra work. Plus Upwork allows clients 14 days to approve work! That's ridiculous. It used to be 5. In addition, they hold on to the money AFTER the client approves the work for 5 business days. They claim that they hold on to the money to make sure it clears. That's total BS and they know it. We live in digital world people! So, you could end up waiting 19 days before getting paid... They're a RIP off and I want out. I'm so sick of it.

Our Josh is systematically ripping every online platform out there 😂😂

So, so true. I demand that all new freelancers trying Upwork should first create a fake job related to their skill. I did this and saw 40+ proposals from editors/ghostwriters from Harvard to English teachers. Broke my heart. On another note: Traditional freelancing is scary, but the worst people can do is ridicule you. Ridicule is cheaper than $20/month on Upwork connects. Guess I’ll face my fear of rejection.

Other Reasons Why Upwork Sucks: 1. When freelancers submit work to a funded milestone, a client can easily cancel the project and request a refund. You’ve submitted work and now have to open a dispute because the client used the “fishing pole method” of hanging money in your face just to pull and cancel the project once it’s done to get free work. 2. Interviews on Upwork are nothing but brain picking sessions, asking you questions so they can squeeze as much information out of you as possible so they can do the job themselves. 3. “You either trust me or not”. This is sooo true! I’ve had a client who at the LAST milestone, try to withhold money so I can submit the last part of the project and they will pay me once satisfied. They will tell me that they don’t “trust” me and don’t feel comfortable approving the last milestone, while never complained about the project this far. When you complain to customer service, they either do nothing or take the CLIENT’S side! As a last resort, I would them straight up that they either release the funds FIRST and I submit the last work or just end the contract all together. Then, you won’t owe any rights to the work and the project is considered incomplete. They always do the former (I had made enough money from Upwork, to the point I can give clients an ultimatum). You either trust me or not. I don’t have time for their games. I grew tired of the games and the headaches so I’ve left Upwork 7 years ago to start a real business. I don’t regret leaving.

Speaking truth as usual. These videos should be mandatory in any comp sci 101 course.

I think I know why they keep doing this. They don't care about the freelancers on their platform because they don't have to. By looking through the search filters, there are currently around 200,000 jobs posted and more than 4,000,000 freelancers on the website (though I can't tell how many of them are active, let's be generous say 50%). So there are 10x more freelancers on the platform than there are jobs at any given time. With numbers like this, upwork can do whatever they like and nothing can stop them aside from maybe a complete boycott (which will never happen. As stupid as the microtransactions are, quite a few people still manage to make a living there and probably wouldn't just leave like that).

Who on earth rushes to watch ur videos as soon as they premiere, just to downvote?? 🤨🤔 dang thats dedication

Upwork has gotten worse than what this video says. Thanks Josh.

IMPORTANT: Recently they disabled free monthly connects. You HAVE to buy connects if you want to apply to jobs at all!

Love this type of content Josh. I really enjoy the thorough explanations of these platforms that are designed to exploit IT professionals. It is extremely tough to compete in an outsourced job market like Upwork, and I appreciate the understanding of how time could be more efficiently used to pursue more fruitful job hunting endeavours.

NIce contents bro. I can relate as I've been using Upwork for a little while now, and I can't really see any monetary benefits it has brought to my freelance career. You spend hours writing proposals for peanut. I think approaching clients head-on or maybe doing email marketing is way better. You have all the control and set your own standards. Subscribed!!

Joshua Fluke does not give good news. But he tells the bitter truth. Somehow he analyzes on point. We need a salty honest dude like this to offer us the actual reality. Thank you Joshua. Include a donation link, so we can donate you.

Now I’m going to get ads from upwork for the rest of the day.

Nice video! The basic principle is that anytime you make something easier for everyone, the barrier to entry decreases and competition soars. This is why I avoid these crowded "freelance" websites. This is the shortcut scam at work.

Love these informative videos.

holy snap Josh, I was just looking at upwork today

I charge $200/hr on Upwork. I get at least one invite to apply for a gig every day. The people who struggle on Upwork are competing on price instead of value. Just offering a different perspective.

Nic aproach to the topic,I like this new style of moving around keep up the great work

Yes; I looked on Upwork - was thinking about doing some software QA freelance work. But I saw that people were freelancing for ultra-insane low hourly rates - like almost minimum wage - it was crazy. I had just come from a job making $130K a year and there were people offering to do similar work for 10 to 20 an hour.

You're absolutely right. Thanks for talking about it.

Yo buddy, the video is on point specially thaf I am moving out of upwork currently, can't wait for the course, plz keep us updated.

Honestly this was really helpful for me, I 100% appreciate you giving real looks behind the BS and giving it to us straight.

I suspected a lot of this but I didn't know it was that bad. Thank you.

Thank you for the advice man

Thank you very. This is most insightful.

loving the cinematography

I like your transparency regarding theses B.S. scam companies.

Great content Josh! Thanks mate, you are a legend.

Love the new camerawork! You are such a good looking guy that you should showcase it under the best light.

Very insightful. So happy that I found your channel and this video. Thank you.

Thanks for another great video Josh! I was actually contemplating getting back on Upwork as I’m currently needing to find more work but I think I’ll skip out on them.

Josh, you are insightful beyond your years. Doing God's work on your channel for devs.

I have been waiting for this video for 5 months! great effort josh keep it up ♥♥

Really like the format you shot this in. Some real valuable info here - nice work.

Haha - I remember that video where you just walked into the deli to talk business. It was so refreshing and made freelancing look fun! I've lost many many hours on trying to make upwork... I think I was trying to offer my services at something like $5 for ghostwriting a standard, 5-paragraph business letter, or a 350-word bio on a webpage. I ended up not even being considered for the jobs I had applied to. In the end, I just blamed my skills and photo. Me being soft is one thing, but they're just... not helpful at all. So much easier to just get judged fairly by pounding pavement.

You're so honest dude I agree with you

Thanks man, for saving me from more stress, time wasted and money lost. Its hard enough trying to be a freelancer without companies like these creating a race to the bottom market and fostering a lower sense of value for our work in the eyes of potential clients.

Absolutely right this is my experience too!

This channel is becoming a non-bullshit discussion. Keep up doing videos like this josh

Nice info ! Thanks

Thanks for the info Josh.

I completely get where you're coming from, but I disagree with a lot of what you said in this video. I've been working as a freelance web developer solely through Upwork for the last 4 months, and it's worked really well from me. Here are some of my thoughts about your comments: 1. 1:48 it's true there are plenty of people hiring on Upwork that think like this: looking for developers from developing markets who charge less (often China in the case of Vue, which I mostly work with). However, there are also plenty of clients who know that it's often better to go with someone who charges a slightly higher fee but produces quality work, and is fluent in the language spoken by the client. I don't undercut - I actually tend to propose a higher fee than the client's budget, because this allows me to filter out the clients looking for cheap but shitty labour, and get hired by the high-quality clients who value high-quality work. I tried several other freelance sites before Upwork, and Upwork has the largest proportion of genuinely good clients, compared to sites like Freelancer (where absolutely this point is valid) 2. 3:28 You're right. The fees are outrageous. But the reason they're able to charge them is that, at the end of the day, they are one of the best sources of work for freelancers. Yes I could go out and knock on doors to find someone who wants a website, but time is money, and in my case I'm more than happy to fork over the 20% fee in exchange for avoiding this waste of time. Once I've built a relationship with the client I move off of Upwork and circumvent the fees (for both parties). As for connects, well, I hate them too, but I can't help feeling that the reason the quality of work is better than Freelancer is thanks to the connects system avoiding a torrent of copy and paste applications from talentless developers. Connects are never unaffordable if you're keeping to a moderate amount of applications. I spend around 15 minutes writing each proposal and making sure it's super personalised. 3. 6:06 Never looked into their paid subscriptions, don't feel like I need them. Sound about as useless and scammy as you say. 4. 8:50 Fortunately I haven't had any clients try to run off without paying me, but this is actually a big advantage of Upwork, not a drawback (and one of the reasons they can get away with the 20% fee!). May be different in the US, but in the UK where I live it's very difficult to chase up a client who decides not to pay for your work, even with a signed contract. The cost of legal fees means that in most cases when this happens to a freelancer they tend to just bite the bullet. Upwork keeps funds in escrow and has a dispute system which should help avoid situations like this. 5. 10:25 Yes, just like job descriptions, clients ask for the perfect candidate. But over half the contracts I've successfully gotten I haven't met the requested "requirements". I try to make my proposals super detailed to the point that the client overlooks the benchmarks they've set, and any other successful freelancer does the same whether they're using upwork or not. Sorry for the super long comment, just wanted to share my experiences. I agree that once you've got an expansive portfolio you're probably better off looking for contract jobs on a normal job site. But for a junior web dev like me, Upwork has been great and I've made over double what I'd make as a junior developer in a permanent role.

Your channel is one of my favorites. Thanks!

hi josh, i do wish you the best of luck. i understand the family situation completely and i stand by your decision i hope one day you can reconnect with your family and for things to get better on that front. I love the content. I am a self taught web developer/software engineer and because of you i know which job postings to steer clear of. Thanks for your work and keep going.

Thank you for this. I was considering.

Thank you for this video

good points

Need more video content like this.. 👍

I was ghosted several times and tbh I bought connects and never got my money back. I got years of experience outside upwork but seems like I had to really lower down my hourly pay just to compete with others .

Very helpful video. You saved me a lot of time, money and frustration. Thank you dude.

Excellent content - you have saved me a lot of blood sweat and tears.

Joshua Fluke is surely shaking some tables.

I have been free lancing for years and have only gotten 1 job from upwork and it was for dirt cheap. I have found more work Through networking and applying for jobs online and offering my services as a contractor rather then an employee.

Oh my God ! You just ticked every box from my frustration list. I saw that a client was searching for expert skills for 10$ an hour......good luck with that This is by far the most honest review of upwork !

True 💯 I have a very bad experience with freelancing(contract) sites. Also, employers using these sites do not value the quality of work.

I agree!!! Totally trashed my upwork account!!

I remember the good ol' days of walking around and talking to business owners. I heard a whole lot of no's but the one yes I got ended up being a cool internship at a recording studio and my friend and I got to hang out with rappers, and do our homework (we were in college) in a high end recording studio. Fun times.

if you ask you client for email of other contact, your account gets monitored, and u get a warning. Ans possibly banned.

great video, I've been using upwork since they were called oDesk, it was going good, then they changed their name and their business model, then I found a job outside of the platform and when I came back after 6 months my profile was changed to hidden and now I have to pay so that possible client can see it, this is crazy, you have to pay for everything now and it doesn't guarantee you landing a job.

Thanks for the input Josh. There is a good reason (and only one) that I find in working with Upwork: If you are interested in going the freelancer route, you can do some small, 1-2 day projects on Upwork, for a low price AND a testimonial/referral. Do a few of them in 2-3 weeks, and you'll have a bit of money and testimonials/people you can refer to in your website. But nothing past that.

I love this.

Love the whole video and motions. Def understand all the aspects of what you described having started with Upwork as a self-taugh engineer at first and being outbid by people willing to do jobs for $5. Tbh, I ended up doing a lot of jobs to just get hands on experience, and when I looked at it that way I certainly learned a lot. If it were for the money, absolutely not worth it. Word of mouth freelancing is how I got by until moving to the Silicon Valley. Thanks for the upload

Just wanna say - haven't watched the video yet, but saw the title and was interested. Had an Upwork ad play before the video started.

I love your video videos.

Thanks 🙏

Best video you've made in a while.

You won me over in 20 seconds. Well said!

You are absolutely Right Josh once again as always... unfortunately, people have been willing slaves their whole lives and many seems to have a hard time thinking on their own as you do, in our world, we have basically two types of people, those who follow along like sheeple and those who lead with logical thinking, their will always be these companies to swoop in, take your money for doing nothing that people can;t do themselves and they get away with it only because humanity has lost almost all ability to think logically. so Thank you for shearing your wisdom and intellect with us and to those where who no longer have a brain LOL.

All what he said is damn accurate based on real experience

Honestly this video is all true. I'm a freelancer and I don't use marketplace sites because I would never get what I'm worth on there. I think Josh should've suggested more in depth alternatives though. Basically everyone that works contracts gets them through word of mouth. If you're in a new area that is difficult which is the situation I, an experienced developer, find myself in currently.

Thanks man this helped me reconsider working on the upworks platform! Sounds like a horrible experience 😕

The connects are annoying! But they do help avoid people with teams of people applying for every single job.

If there's anyone on this site I trust to give a review on something, it's Josh. Man just doesn't sugarcoat at all. I rarely ever sub to anyone, but this channel's different. Stay awesome man 🤙

Josh, great video!! I have been working on Upwork and before that Elance since 2013. I agree that you get screwed by the fee's and the recent change to connects etc. I have no idea how to find clients outside of Upwork with any consistency. If anyone has tips on that please let me know. I do content creation (video, writing and photo) and web dev/design. The convenience of Upwork is in not having to find the clients. I agree - working for your self and setting your own rates is the way to go.

WTF? that is a complete scam. You don't pay for a subscription from freelancers. Its more for suckers. I bet they also take commission in the transactions.

Its like the Uber of Freelancing!

Good thing i didnt consider upwork before... Thank you josh for awareness

I have never even got a job on upwork, my account just sits there.

Getting me closer and closer to joining the grindwheel academy... Just have to figure out projects that sell. I agree, it is a race to the bottom and best to leave the system than use it...

Many very valid points in this video, and certainly a worth while use of anyone's time who is considering making themselves available on the Upwork platform. The general premise of not falling under the umbrella of true freelancing, points made about the fee structures, clients power over contractors and several more will receive no arguments from me. One minor point of contention from a factual standpoint, would be that making a bot to log in and click around would keep you as active, unfortunately they view activity as earning money on the platform and not simply "activity" in the more general sense. So to that end, staying active is a bit involved than it's made to seem here. The rest of what I have to say is purely based on my own experience, and not meant to detract in any way from your viewpoints, as again many of them are valid and certainly things that the site themselves aren't going to advertise. With that preamble in mind, my experience has differed in a few key aspects: 1)As illogical as it seems on the surface, I have found that consistently increasing the price of jobs (even when starting out) has been far more successful than trying to undercut other users. I've done that with almost no exceptions, and my hire rate is consistently at the very top of the spectrum. The primary key to making this work is writing thoughtful proposals, centered around the specific ways you can help them accomplish their goals and then asking for a time to get them on the phone/video chat and using that to differentiate yourself from the low effort proposals submitted by others. imgur.com/VR2MwIj 2) Once you have put in time on the platform and built a reputation, good opportunities present themselves on an extremely regular basis. And while I absolutely recommend making sure you have additional sources of income/work outside of the platform, it does give you peace of mind knowing that if you ever do find yourself needing work that it will be available. I respond and clear out my interview invitations on at least a once a week basis and right now I have 9 more waiting should I need them. In fact, of the 10 jobs I've applied for in the past 3 months, all but 1 was something I was invited to apply for and I almost never seek out new work on my own. imgur.com/a/s1rWyrl

joshua u are the best ...

Wow wow wow....you said EVERYTHING that I ever was thinking when it comes to this Upwork and freelance business!!! LOL. The clients drive me crazy with changes...and no paying...exactly!!! I am deleting my Upwork for the second time...waste of time. Never got any jobs on there anyway.

Thanks for crushing them so good 👊

I've successfully freelanced and supported my family for over thirty years. I agree with every single thing in this video. Even though my intial google search raised some concerns, I gave Upwork a try six months ago. The first month, I got two decent jobs - wow! Figured it was a good place. Then spent the next six months trudging through race-to-the-bottom listings and people ghosting me after they email me. I've decided to pass. That first month was clearly an anomaly. Quickly became apparent that it's yet another web site great for the initial investors and bad for everyone else. Keep up the great work and keep shining a light on the scummy shadows.

damn thank you for elaborating on what freelancing actually is.

All the "freelancers" on upwork downvoted this

What I do is when the customer doesn't have a well written specification for the work they want done, what I offer them is to WRITE that document for/with them (on a retainer at an hourly rate) then I bid on that (and if they want they can shop it around to other consultants if they want).

your video quality went up 1000%

first thing thank you so much

Up work was a successful service for friends of mine. It introduced new workers to the tech industries, especially those who were career shifting. Those with real credentials could use established channels or self promotion. One friend did the testing then found a support job for a modeling software firm answering tickets. She did amazing and they switched her to google after a few months. Now she leads dev teams internationally, as google has a large outsourced workforce. She has a revolving contract with Upwork. I think you need to live super cheap, move to a cheap country, enjoy travel, have few ties, and enjoy your solitude, as you don’t live in a work environment. This person did have a degree mostly completed in astrophysics and years as a restaurant entrepreneur. She could learn super fast, lived to code, and manage employees, a rare find. At middle age how could she think of career switching into a tech field? A bankrupt with no direct tech work experience? No courses? Nothing. In a way Upwork does add market liquidity, at a cost of course. I’m looking forward to competitors in freelance temp marketing. Those fees are too high.

I'm in Upwork 2 years from now, I have a job but I think upwork sucks, really sucks. They will cut your salary from beginning to the end. So greedy.