I hadn't expected so many people to be interested in my in-depth thoughts about Lore Olympus lol. Since that wasn't the focus of this video, but I also don't want y'all to be too disappointed here are my ~thoughts~ (1) Age gap: I already said it doesn't bother me in the video. I go back and forth if it should have just been ignored completely rather than made a point of at all since I feel like it bothers people that it was brought up and then hand-waved. I think RS was trying to be responsible in that regard to at least acknowledge there would be a power imbalance since her readership is broad. Yet, I feel like it only brings focus to the issue. People are going to make their own decision about if they think the relationship is comfortable or not and I don't think (in this incarnation) it really needed to be discussed. (2) Depictions of Abuse/SA (TW): As a survivor of date rape and an emotionally abusive partner, a lot of what happens in these moments focusing on this really aligns with my own emotional experience. Especially the assault scene with Apollo/Persephone. Not only has something like that happened to me but has happened to multiple women I know. It rings true. As for Minthe, I get why it can be frustrating to have an abusive person also be shown to have some sympathetic elements, but I don't think addressing that absolves Minthe. (3) Lack of Body Diversity: I did notice that other than Hestia we don't have much different body shapes other than height and I agree that is disappointing. (4) Tone: I saw one commenter mention that the series has both slice of life and narratives of abuse happening at such a shift it can be jarring. I do understand that criticism. I think for me, because of a lot of manga/anime I read it feels almost normal to have storytelling that breaks up like that. Especially because as a creator-you do want to break up strings of sadness. I know it can feel like a deviation or "filler" but as I get older, the more I sort of see the need to not just wear the audience down. It reminds me of how in Utena, you'd have these really intense psychologically drive episodes and then a whole episode of a side character getting dunked on. In the moment I just wanted the meal, but upon rewatching I'm thankful for the break. Anyway, those are my thoughts in general and if there is anything anyone wants to ask me we will just do it here

Thank you for the justice for Demeter!!! It feels like every adaptation from Percy Jackson to Hades presents her as a horrible, overbearing parent. Especially when Zeus, Mr Abusive Parent incarnate, is literally right there

People love romanticizing the idea of a brooding, dark yet powerful man falling hopelessly in love with a bright-eyed beautiful young woman. Its the mythology version of bad boy falling for the good girl, devil falling for the angel, the beast falling for the beauty. A tale as old time (pun intended). I’m personally tired of the trope, though I do enjoy Lore Olympus and retellings where Persephone has agency and is equal to him. In the original myths, he’s one of the few Gods I like as he seems to just be a chill guy that minds his business and loves his wife. Even in the Disney film he’s a likable and entertaining villain. I’ll never forgive Disney for trying to convince people that Zeus and Hera are good parents though.

From Demeter's perspective it's a mystery drama about a single mother investigating her daughter's disappearance

My only complaint with a lot of modern retellings is I do feel quite a few of them often give Persephone the “uwu smol bean, cinnamon roll” treatment and I’d like to see more of her as a strong, capable woman instead of a naïve girl, I want more of her duality of being a goddess of life and a queen of death. Greeks used to not utter her name in fear of invoking her wrath and in quite a few myths, she’s depicted as being a bit sadistic and the one between her and Hades to duel out harsher punishments. I really love Hadestown’s version of Persephone for going for a more mature version of her. She feels complex. She’s still light hearted and fun loving (seeing how she acts before having to depart from up top to Hadestown) as I’ve often seen Persephone depicted while still feeling like she’s come into her own, she’s aged, she is a Queen and knows it.

I just think it’s funny seeing people debate about the “original” Persephone in the myths as if she is just one person in one story with consistent characterization. There are about a billion iterations of the story, and I think it’s hilarious to see people say “well Persephone ACTUALLY-“ like bro there is no definitive story, it is myth, it is fluid.

I think the characterization of Demeter is a lot of modern work retelling the Hades - Persephone's story is that she is "Mother Gothel" woman who wants to lock Persephone in a tower. When Demeter just loves her daughter and is freaked out when she goes suddenly with a strange man with the permission of her rapist brother.

I also feel like people calling the myth problematic and criticizing the rise of this story are missing the super WEIRD part about the common version of the myth, which is that Demeter has a say. I know things with the gods are weird, but culturally it is still very strange. Hades asking Zeus for permission to have Persephone and kidnapping her and presenting her with a fruit to which her acceptance meant they were bound to each other were all common marriage traditions of the time. Not to say we can’t criticize any of that today, but that being in the myth itself seems pretty normal to exist. What IS weird is that Demeter wanted her daughter back and by all accounts, Hades did what was considered proper so there was absolutely no reason for Zeus to rescind his approval of the marriage and when Demeter took her grief out on the world, Zeus caved and asked Hades to give Persephone back. Knowing Ancient Greece’s treatment of women, this stands out to me that this is a story that turns around and kind of sympathizes with and favors a mother demanding back her daughter who was already given away by her father. So while Persephone only spends half the year with her mother, not a COMPLETE win for Demeter, it’s still an interesting stand out that a moral that says “a man should still consult the mother of his children before making decisions for them” is even hinted at.

one of my favorite retellings is still a story on AO3 where the author reimagined Persephone as asexual, and she uses Hades as a way to escape suitors, using her wits to get people to stop bothering her and Hades goes with it cuz he doesn't mind and just like somebody to talk to. Edit: it's Kore by oneiriad

Also, I notice that Persephone is almost entirely defined by her introductory story and less by other myths such as with Adonis and Minthe or her role in Eros and Psyche, I think it would be interesting for her roles in these other myths to get touched on

I resent a lot of the modern portrayal of Demeter as this overbearing terrible mother (thanks Hades for avoiding it), because a tale of the unconditional and bottomless love of a mother for a daughter is not common in media as of now and it certainly was not common back then. Paraphrasing, the idea of a love that could “undo rape and death itself” is just so powerful and tragic. I also wish for a portrayal of Persephone in equal standing to Hades, in terms of wit and maturity at least. We have some less famous ones, but all famous ones do not approach them like this (again, except Hades? Lol).

hadestown persephone is ABSOLUTELY my favourite persephone, i love how anais mitchell puts this spin on her that's so unique from any other version of persephone i've ever seen but that makes SO much sense. persephone as a Wine Aunt™️ with this sharp bite to her and manic energy yet also a warm and caring heart? LOVE her. i want more older persephones like her

Also you made me think about another goddess (A Hindu goddess)who's SO underrated, who kind of mirrors Persephone's stories? Parvathi, considered to be the goddess of motherhood and fertility (but also is considered to be the form of THE primordial energy og the universe, what a queen), but her story is more of her desiring after Shiva (god of destruction) and basically MOVING him to marry her (cause he was kinda the og celibate, and usually going into penance was more of what men did), and they live in *relative* stability.

Who is the bad guy in this story Me: it's Zeus Melina : Zeus it's always Zeus Me: I'm psychic 😎

Not being able to see Hadestown on stage is making me physically in pain.

There was this classics professor on TikTok, and she made a video discussing the myth. She specifically mentioned how prominent greek women, who had status but little power, spent most of their time with their daughters, because men were more free to socialise and their sons would leave, so it was just them and their girls until one of those women was sent potentially far off by their fathers, to be married. At which point the mothers may only see them once or twice a year for special festivals. She then suggested that the main character of the story is Demeter, who represents those women, but from a uniquely empowered perspective of being a vital goddess. What I found even more interesting was how she then discussed that Demeter's attempts to make Demophon immortal was a blatant fuck you to Zuse and Hades, because if she can give out immortality and thus divinity without Zuse, his position as king of the gods would mean nothing, and if she can make everyone immortal, then being king of the underworld becomes equally pointless. I've never really looked at the story the same since then, but IDK how much of that was her opinion/reinterpretation and how much was her explaining what Ancient Greek people would have understood.

I think the reason that Demeter = helicopter parent happens is that giving Persephone agency means she should *choose* to eat the seeds and that motivation is easier if she's leaving something she doesn't want / trying to force the ability to stay in the underworld

Something I'd like to bring up with Demeter in Lore Olympus; she kept Persephone ignorant about her powers and away from the male gods because she believed that one of them would want to take advantage of her daughter (Apollo and Cronus prove her right, as well as Zeus swallowing Metis). It's very similar to, say, a mother making her daughter dress chastely so that she doesn't tempt men (and so they won't rape her). While I'm not condoning Demeter's actions, I understand that she was doing what she felt would best protect her daughter and it's sad that she had to take measures like these after other gods have taken advantage of fertility goddesses in the past. On another note, I once read a fanfic where the whole "the Earth is freezing over" wasn't because Demeter was mourning the loss of her daughter (she actually approved the marriage) but because she learned that Zeus raped Persephone AGAIN and decided that letting winter cover the earth and wither away all the offerings would be the best way to teach him a lesson.

Thank you for calling out the "Demeter is always an overbearing helicopter parent" thing!! I get why it's used as a plot device, but it doesn't need to become a canon trait for every retelling. Demeter's anger is justified!! And she's a cool af goddess in her own right!!! Also, if anyone knows of a version where Demeter's sadness in winter is explored as an allegory for seasonal depression...please tell me because I want that to exist.

Personally I absolutely love the interpretation of Hades and Persephone's story as a commentary (and a sort of therapeutic narrative) on the grief that mothers experienced at the hands of their husbands and other men that got to decide when and how their daughters got taken away from them. That's why I actually hate the portrayal of Demeter as an overbearing mother, she is a representation of what actual women went through and an example of how not even power and status will protect you as a woman from the violence of men of your same status.

I honestly really like your idea of us changing mythology to reflect our own values, cause it's honestly true. Most people see same sex couple in Greek mythology and reflect them to our own standards in relationship, but from what I remember from history class, same sex couple were mainly older men showing their "manliness" by being with younger men and that relationship would end as soon as the younger man grew up or they found a wife, not very romantic cause society didn't crave romance in those relationship (again some details are probably wrong so let me now). So taking control and giving us a opportunity to tell these stories ourselves, queer people and woman, is really powerful. Speaking of which, where are all the retelling of Narcissus and Ameinias? There is a gold mine of story telling potential there!

As a reader and writer of retellings, it's always intriguing to see what the next iteration of these old/ageless stories and myths will entail. Been binging your videos, knowledge is power.

I’m SO happy that you mentioned Class of the Titans. It’s my favorite Hades and Persephone depiction cause it’s unconventional. Hades is the meek and posh and Persephone has the princess/nurturing side but also has a little temper to her. And Hades having a posh dandy accent and being proud of his decorating and softer hobbies and calling Cerberus his puppy is adorable. It’s just so much better to me than having Hades being a goth bad boy and Persephone being the wilting flower.

I feel like people get kind of hung up on what is the "correct" version of this myth and that just feels limiting to me. We're talking about ancient stories with these complex archetypes; there's more than one way the story can go! The romantic part of me really likes the "opposites attract" take on the myth where Hades is just a chill guy who loves his wife. However, one of my favorite Hades & Persephone retellings was "Bone Gap" by Laura Ruby, which explored the myth from the angle where Hades was very much a villain. Persephone's such a fascinating character, a goddess of both life and death and the cycles that connect them...I will take all the Persephone retellings, all of them!!

I literally just bought tickets for Hadestown so I'm cracking up.

In "Destripando la historia" (on KZfaq) Hades version of the story is that Demeter is an evil mother in law and controlling to Persephone. Then later Demeter's version comes out and you see Hades as the person who took the one she had a good relationship with, and since Demeter was raped by Zeus and Poseidon her depression when Hades took Persephone is 100% understandable.

Madeline Miller, queen of modern Greek reimaginings (see: Song of Achilles & Circe) has just recently announced she's currently writing a Persephone retelling novel. NOT a Hades & Persephone story (so many readers immediately assumed it was gonna be a romance book following them) but SOLELY a Persephone story. Based on the nuance and beauty of character Miller's done with Circe, I CANNOT wait for this book. This will quite literally be the death of me

Thank you for talking about Lore Olympus! I was in an emotionally abusive and sexually coercive relationship when I was 15 and it wasn't until this webtoon that I saw SA assault represented in the way that it happened to me. I think retelling the story of Persephone is important in modern day times as we understand more about SA and the power that women have in themselves. Now you just have to mention all the trashy YA novels I definitely didn't (I did...) read about teenage versions of Persephone and Hades. Love your work!

I was raised as an eclectic pagan and have recently started leaning more towards the reconstructionist side. I have always been fascinated with Persephone. I just started reading _Finding Persephone: women’s rituals in the ancient Mediterranean._ While it is a little on the academic side, it has been super interesting since a lot of the more domestic aspects of worship haven’t often been recorded since they were seen as inherently scandalous.

As a little Greek nerd, I grew up surrounded by all these myths as a child. I really love your analysis and positioning of the three main characters of this story. Now towards Demeter the hysteric/overprotective/helicopter parent I'd like to offer another myth about her that isn't much talked about. It is the myth of what Demeter does while the Earth is covered in ice as she waits for Zeus to concede. She disguises herself as an old woman and poses as *insert word for ancient greek version of nanny here* to a noble family, where she starts raising their kid, she then proceeds to decide that since she misses her daughter, she is going to turn this kid into an immortal and have a kind of replacement-god-child, and holds it over the fire in a ritual that is implied to end with killing it (which is part of the process to becoming a god), until the mother comes in, freaks out on her and chases her out. As a child this myth really freaked me out I remember and Idk perhaps this was a myth that circulated as a cautionary tale, but it actually made the modern interpretation of Demeter as this overprotective and anxious parent very realistic to me (probably because that story traumatized me hahaha). About the age gap in Lore Olympus and other iterations of the myth, I honestly don't really get bothered by these sorts of elements in stories because for the most part, we are looking at stories of gods. In my head as a child and as an adult, being a god means you have no concept of time, of mortal norms and morals, of laws and of "common decency", which is why for example a lot of female goddesses in Greek mythology imo are so powerful compared to their mortal counterparts or the real women who were in most parts of Greece at the time only marginally better than slaves. I do have to say I really appreciate the foresight of my age though, I remember finding Zeus as this cool Chad Alpha dude as a kid in these stories (probably because greek storybooks never used the word rape of course and as a kid I didn't get subtext or the complexities of such relationships, though I did think he was an asshole for some stuff. Framing is so important honestly...)

I think it would be reasonable to believe that the Greeks had knowledge of other older cultural myths about Persephone being a Cathonic God so I kind of interpret Hades kidnapping of her taking her back to where she belongs. I definitely interpret Demeter's behaviour as less hysterical dragon mom and more general parental anxiety about your child growing up. She was probably not asked because everyone other god knew she would never consent, no matter the person/circumstances.

I think one element that makes this particular myth so fascinating for modern retellings is that for those of us who do enjoy studying the classical lore there are so many different versions of everything else and yet this story has the least variation I've found despite the fact that it contains the most subtilty. Even having a name like 'The Rape of Persephone' if you apply knowledge of the era, culture, writing style, etc the story is nowhere near as black and white as it seems in terms of agency, consent, respect, right, wrong, love, need, etc. The commonly known bits are actually only a tiny piece of the story.

Reading Lore Olympus made me realize that people in healthy age-gap relationships probably feel really left out of media and rarely ever get to see the unique challenges they had to face in navigating romance together. I'm glad that Lore Olympus tried to address that confusion and gave someone who's not me something that celebrated them.

My mom had me when she was 19 and not really in a place to parent, and I lived with her parents a lot of the time, and she would read me a version of the Persephone story that focused most heavily on Demeter's longing to be reunited with her daughter, and so pomegranates are a symbol for us

I love that a myth from literally thousands of years ago is still undergoing a transformation. Even though (the majority of) people don't believe in most ancient gods anymore, there is a cultural fascination in interpreting and reinterpreting their stories to fit modern culture.

Because fanfiction and Wattpad have taught me that if a man kidnaps me he's my soulmate by default

-Princess (Paraphrased): "There aren't many powerful Goddesses who aren't virgins or in constant fear of being assaulted." -Aphrodite: "Am I a joke to you?"

Hearing that bit of Halsey at the beginning made me grin. That point about Demeter is important, and even if LO was still having her be a bit shrewish, she has damn good reason to be scared about Persephone's safety, given her possible fertility status.

Just one thing I had to get out of my system, we always say Persephone is a spring goddess but she actually isn’t…. She doesn’t create spring, she just causes it. Demeter creates spring when Persephone come back, it would be more accurate to call Persephone the Herald of spring rather than the goddess of spring. Her only confirmed position is as queen of the underworld, making her more of a goddess of the underworld than a goddess of spring. (If anyone here knows more than me and I messed something up please feel free to correct me)

I do love Lore Olympus, but I admit I dislike the age gap. I see how younger women might want to see that, but maybe because I'm older now it's harder to overlook. Hades is doing basically everything right...but I know irl that shit aint flying.

“It’s always Zeus’s fault” OMG I SAID THIS AT THE SAME TIME :D

That point about women's realms is not entirely accurate. It was accurate for the upperclass and nobility but for the poorer classes it was not. I did a college project on fairy tales and their origins and it was surprising how many of them in their original form was empowering to women. These came from rural villages like in the French countryside where every member of the village was important for the survival of the village. Women were not relegated to only nunnery or marriage or prostitution because they HAD to do everything or they would die. They had tanneries, ran Mills , did medicine ECT ect. They were respected and valued members of their communities. Now if you wanted to argue they ran these things through marriage only I'll admit I don't remember because it was 11 years ago but I don't think it was just that. Most of our fairy tales that became very women in distress as victims only were changed when they reached the nobility because the upperclass didn't like the violent empowered women in those tales and didn't want upperclass women to get ideas.

I love Persephone. I remember one of the first stories I read as a kid about Persephone, was when she stepped on this other woman that Hades used to be with and turned her into a mint plant because she was bragging about their relationship to Persephone's face. I like the point you made about Demeter. I remember one myth from the Orphic tradition of myths, the one about the birth of Zagerus/ Dionysis, Demeter was super concerned about Persephone's safety so she sent Persephone to live with Artemis or Athena for a bit (Idr which one, sorry I read this a long time ago >__

I didn't really like Lore Olympus, Persephone's character just seemed too childish for my taste and it made the age gap feel weird. I liked her character design though. Characterwise I think I preferred Punderworld. I really wish that Demeter was portrayed as less of a helicopter parent type in these modern retellings, but It's kind of hard not to fall in to that trope in stories where Hades and Persephone's love is mutual. Maybe in these retellings it'd help if the writer showed a likeable side to her. Like showing how much she genuinely cares for her daughter and fears for her safety. Maybe even keep the other gods' original creepiness, giving her a reason to be distrustful of him.

'the snake is a misogynist' my new favorite quote

Also, the characterization of Demeter as a helicopter parent spoke to me so much because of my own experiences. When you have an abusive parent, you want so much for someone as or more powerful than your abuser to come in and just remove you from the situation, to make you feel like you can be loved, despite what you parent told you your entire life. That's one reason I love Gothic couples: the girl's femininity and softness and hopefulness (the exact things she's considered weak and stupid for) are elevated and praised. These traits start her on her journey, becoming her power instead of her vulnerability. Initially, it puts her on the margin, where she meets the monster, both of them able to understand each other because they're both considered subhuman and wild and primitive. She brings her ability to love and he brings her power and lays it at her feet. I really like that about Hades and Persephone, the monster and the girl angle. You have two different forms of strength meeting.

"Anubis ain't doing this" is the best line I've ever heard lol. I love ancient Egyptian mythology (and their history in general) ❤️

OSP reference! yeeeeeeeeeeeees and also, yes. the thing with demeter is that she's upset her daughter is missing and then she's upset her daughter's father is such an asshole. i get mad when retelling paint the mother as the bad guy. she was worried about her daughter, give her a break.

(SPOILER FOR LORE OLYMPUS) i actually think lore’s portrayal of demeter is great. yes, she’s overprotective, but as the story progresses, her protectiveness is incredibly valid! her daughter could potentially, due to her position as a fertility goddess, could either get killed by zeus or forced into marriage and thus probably later raped for power by any of zeus’ children. and on top of that, she’s been kept in the dark regarding persephone’s relationship with hades so, like any parent honestly, would be concerned as to why there’s this secret relationship with a major god. persephone being hidden and also eternally a maiden is an understandable course of action for her. was it right per se? no. but does it have depth? is there more to it than just the “overbearing mother” stereotype? absolutely.

I also think people do the helicopter demeter thing is that she turns down proposals for her in some of the myths. This kinda limits persephone's agency and some people view this as overstepping

From the moment I first heard about Hades “tricking” Persephone with pomegranate seeds I knew the story was preserved in a way that appeased Demeter. Zeus is the villain in this story and I paused the video to go hit the like button as soon as you said that. Demeter’s rage and terror at having her daughter taken with no warning is entirely justified, especially when you consider the men in her family. Anyway the legend wants me to believe the goddess of Spring and the daughter of Mother Nature herself didn’t know eating the seeds would bind her to the world of the dead. She probably grew the tree herself! I certainly can’t find any references to plants of any kind in Hades before she was down there. I prefer to believe when it was time to return to her mother she suspected Demeter might never want her to return and was all “This is the best husband and seat of power I’m going to get in this family. Babe, bring me my pomegranate. I also believe the pomegranate in the context of the story to be a symbol for how her love for hades grew against all odds and that the fruit symbolizes a happy and heartfelt reunion between the two as pomegranate season starts around October right when Persephone would return to her husband and her throne. To be fair I am a hopeless romantic and Hades and Persephone are Greek mythology OTP.

I got to see Hadestown at the Kennedy Center a couple of months ago. I really enjoyed the show! I liked their version of Persephone as a self-assured individual with her own motives. It was cool to not only see Orpheus and Eurydice's relationship blossom, but also the mending of the relationship between Persephone and Hades.

Thanks for defending Demeter. She was just a caring mother who wanted to protect her daughter from her uncle. And the fact that Persephone is the result of assault may have also played a part

Another part of the myth of Persephone is the idea of the protective mother. Those stories were originally told at an era where a kidnapping could be considered a legitimate wedding. The desire to have a mother powerful enough to do something about it was a fantasy held dear. She could also be a symbolic representation of the seeds waiting under snow or the maggots turning the bodies of the dead into fertile soil.

I for one love OSP too. On the subject of reinterpreting goddesses and writing new stories about them, Freyja is quite interesting. One would probably have to largely write out of whole cloth though.

Persephone is idolized, but poor Helen of Troy gets portrayed horribly even though she was similarly kidnapped against her will and has zero say in the battle of Troy. Also the glorification and romanticization of Greek heroes, particularly Achilles(looking at you song of Achilles) even though like all Greek heroes he is a power hungry and selfish jerk who literally murders two young men(one of the princes of Troy and a young man and his sister) by ruthlessly cutting off their heads because they won't sleep with him. But really guys, he loves Patroclus.

TBF, the older I've gotten the less interest I have in stories with obvious power differentials. This was an interesting overview, though :) Def would love to have older/more powerful Persephones in future reimaginings. Looking forward to the Vampire Diaries videos :D

My favourite myth of Persephone is that when Minthe, Hades ex, was basically saying "he's going to kick your skank ass to the curb and come crawling back to me", Persephone crushed Minthe beneath her heel and turned her into the mint plant. It really gives her agency that she basically kills her boyfriend's ex. My favourite modern retelling is from Dresden Files, where the "rape" of Persephone is the two of them eloping, and Queen Mab, in her aspect of Hecate, lead Demeter on a wild goose chase to give the two a honeymoon.

i never recognize how starved i've been of Blackness and Black culture in fandom convos until i hear a joke about persophone and demeter getting taken to the red table 😂 lol love you melina

Persephone is not Despoina, they are half siblings. Despoina was born from Demeter and Poseidon, and so did her sibling Arion (who's a horse). Persephone, on the other hand, is the child of Demeter and Zeus. Kore and Despoina didn't merged on later myths and became Pesephone, it's pretty clear on other myths that she is *only* Kore. Despoina, Kore, Demeter and Artemis were all worshipped alongside each other by the cult of Eleusinian Mysteries.

Weirdly enough, one of my favorite interpretations of Persephone is the one found in the music videos from Destripado la Historia here in YT. Because the videos are meant to condense all this mythology in a catchy song and how Persephone in most myths is always presented alongside Hades and Demeter she doesn't appear much, but even then with just the animation he has such a fun personality, I love how in the Hades video you see a Persephone that LOVES that she's now the queen, as well as showing Demeter as a helicopter parent, but in the Demeter video we see her side of the story and its a take on her pain at losing her daughter. I would love to see more media take on those qualities, a Persephone that LOVES to be the queen of the Underworld and owns her new position, as well as a relationship with Demeter than from Persephone's point of view might appear helicopter-y but it only seems like this because of Demeter's very valid reasons to be wary of others (especially their family) and the fact that she really loves her daughter. Also, Destripando la Historia music kinda slaps.

My personal take on why: Romanticism of a bad guy turned "good", or "The Beauty and The Beast" scenario. As you said, Hades is usually seen as the "bad guy" or antagonist of some sort due to his ties to the underworld. In the myth of Persephone this is accentuated with the kidnapping, implicit rape and "trickery" with the pomegranates. Since the myth doesn't go much further than that, people assume Hades just "stablished" with her and was emaciated. They usually ignore the implicit rape since it is not mentioned, and empower Persephone by cutting ties with her overbearing mother (in most myths Demeter was indeed overbearing). Basically, the myth could be simplified into it's most pure state as "humanity's conquest over the forces of nature", with Hades being an unescapable force (death) that Persephone was able to "subdue" in some way. It's important to note Persephone is rarely, if ever, mentioned to be powerful before becoming queen of the underworld, she is not even mentioned as a goddess most of the time, making her one of the deities most similar to humans/mortals.

17:54 : Correction- Zeus and Poseidon. Apollo is depicted in the myths as having a very unlucky love life, and as a result be very... overbearing with his romantic feelings with some of the men and women he pursues, however he does not have a canonical history of sexual violence. Just being really bad at reading other people, and his closest ascribed affair to violence was the story of Daphne- who scorned his advances, and turned into a laurel tree when he pursued her to persuade her. In the canon, he never physically harmed her in any way or emotionally abused her. Though the way women where especially treated at the time, her reaction was still justified. Aside from Daphne, all of his failed affairs lacked the violence the other gods' have. All of his successful affairs where reciprocated. Generally, the Olympians where regarded in anxious honor, including Persephone, with only a select few actually liked by the mortal people. Ares was the most hated and feared- and Apollo and Hades being the more well liked of the gods. I'm stating this correction because of this: women very much worshiped Apollo and held him in high regards as one of the only gods who treated the women in his life with the respect and honor that was ill-afforded. I'm sure you meant Zeus and Apollo just came to mind, it happens. But I don't see much correction in the comments and I, as someone who honors Apollo as one of their deities, felt the need to do so. It is important for the people who worship these deities to have their deities represented properly, especially in discussions of modern myth. If this wasn't an error please disregard this. I loved your video, you covered a lot of my gripes with fiction's depictions of Persephone. Lore Olympus did Apollo an incredible disservice, and while people writing fiction are free to make creative liberties, for mythology still revered, studied, and evolving today I feel its important to put more thought and care into how you depict the characters in people's religions. We wouldn't take Jesus and write him as a sex offender, we shouldn't do that with the gods who where explicitly depicted as very much NOT sex offenders.

Also somebody needs Hera and Ganymede to team up and dump Zeus body in a riverbank, cause those two have it rough.

I’ve been a big fan of Lore Olympus for awhile and as a survivor myself I feel like Rachel did an incredible job depicting how complicated and messy working through it is. The way she writes drama and tragedy is incredible but I’m also grateful for the lighter chapters as well Also I’m so excited I found your channel!! I loved your perspective on the myths

I think the reason Demeter often gets the shaft is equal parts winter and because a lot of young women can relate to feeling infantilized and "protected" well into adulthood.

I like that the retellings of Hades and Persephone seem to boil from the fact that out of all the fucked up shenanigans that make up the greek pantheon mythos is that Hades and Persephone were the least fucked up. Not to say in the original story it wasn't problematic by any metric but there seems to be an easier transition to make them more relatable and more of a deeply moving and emotional tale. Zeus by and large is not someone you can redeem and Disney basically did the superman story but used greek characters to do it (I am not kidding, Disney's Hercules is basically Superman and the fact that James Woods years later went on to voice an animated Lex Luthor amuses me). So the idea that people are retelling this story to flesh out the couple and indeed make persephone more than just the labels and singular role given to her is great as it also allows for a redemption of hades. I am a sucker for misunderstood characters and given that the christian dominated media perception leads us to associate all beings linked to death as evil when that is not always the case makes Hades a prime candidate for a tragic figure. Lore Olympus as you said did this in spades and is continuing to do so, and the fun thing is now after watching this video and on reflection of the whole narrative of LO is that virtually all the characters have higher levels of nuance whilst also keeping the roots of the pantheon is at it's core fucked up. Zeus is still a dick, but he has his moments where you can see a little deeper but not too much to make you forget yes he is a dick and the root of much of the problems in the lore. Demeter is an interesting case because in punderworld as you said she is the overbearing mother and portrayed somewhat antagonistic and LO seemed to have that vibe too until you consider (as you said) she's raising a child where the large part of the 'family' is fucked up to the nth degree and if we consider the fertility goddess angle then her motives become all the more sympathetic and her overbearing nature makes sense but regrettably is still the root of much character defects which is why therapy is a good thing. The age difference between the two does illustrate the imbalance of power and experience and even though LO hades is a gent the fact remains and it's an obstacle that they need to determine if they should overcome. I have not played hades but the story and your reaction to it make me curious and interested, and as I haven't much to play on the PS5 that could be something to do in the new year so thank you for that. From a storytelling perspective we rarely see an evolved version of Persephone, like certain characters (superheroes spring to mind) she's often presented in one form and not grown or fleshed out beyond that so to see her evolve from the maiden into a mother in of itself is fascinating. The same can be said for Hadestown which looks interesting all things considered and looks to have plenty of character and psychological work at play...and I am a sucker for that kind of thing. Also as an aside, thank you so much for clarifying what the original meaning of rape meant in the rape of persephone. I was unaware of the original meaning so I am happy to know the OG story may not have had Hades go to that level of fucked up, which considering the original pantheon lore (which as you say we don't know in earnest) wouldn't necessarily change his standing as the least fucked up god.

Ancient Athenians had women as property. Spartans, however, were different. Women owned their own land, had their own athletic games, and actively participated in politics. Ancient Greece =/= Athens

"Spoiler alert: the villain is Zeus." JINX THANK YOU for pronouncing Hekate correctly!

"who was to blame?" "... Zeus. It was Zeus. It's always Zeus." Feel it in my bones.

"If you turn around, Bright Eyes..." 💀

This video really fills a hole in me because I myself have been consuming a lot of Hades/Persephone stories lately and I’ve been wondering why I find them so compelling. I think one of the components that I personally like so much is that I identify with Persephone growing to understand her power and self worth with her partner. While my mother is not a helicopter parent, she’s often contributed to some of my insecurities that I have personally found freedom from with my own partner.

I really love the Lore Olympus Webtoon series and I love how it gives Persephone a lot more agency. I really love how she is still a kind, caring woman but still extremely powerful and capable of great acts of wrath.

I love to think Hades and Persephone spend their time in the underworld going to plays and concerts by all the famous poets, musicians, writers and actors that have ever died. Hades asking Persephone's dad before taking her is apparently what a normal ancient greek wedding procedure. Step 1 Ask her dad, Step 2 take her home. If you think about it from that historic lens Hades was following rules. Still icky tho. And Hades is the rare major gods not actively causing issues, Poseidon causes storms that kill sailors, Zeus is Zeus and Poseidon has to keep all the dead from escaping AS WELL AS making sure Cronus doesn't escape Tartarus. By the gods' standards he is one of the healthier ones.

My favorite version of H and P is when Hecate helps Demeter search for her daughter. Hecate is goddess of magic triple form seeing in all directions with her torch and her hounds she flies with Demeter and because Hecate was beloved and feared by gods and mortals. She can protect if you leave hr some food for her dogs at a crossroads....Finally Hecate takes Demeter to the Underworld and it was there that marriage agreements were made because Demeter sees the love her daughter has for Hades and him for her.

Good stuff. I think there’s still much unexplored space Persephone can go to, and I hope to see another story with her. Perhaps about Demeter.

I truly believe the writers and directors of the pjo movie did not read the book. They for sure had an intern write up some spark notes, completely ignoring the book, Rick and the fan base

EXACTLY!!!!! THANKS!!!!!!!!!!!!! Persephone wasn't kidnapped (by ancient Greek standards) NOR RAPED, she was betrothed and eventually "taken", and by taken they meant given in marriage. You can see the depiction of her "abduction" mimics the way a Groom would "take" his Bride during a wedding. The ideia that Hades actions imply sexual violence came into being by the Romans who had many stories about kidnapping women for sexual purposes (i.e. the sabine women). Her myth in ancient Greece is an allegory to weddings. She was a wedding goddess (different from Hera who ruled over the marriage itself) with Aphrodite in many parts of the Greek world. She also represents the death of the bride's life as a maiden and her rebirth as a wife, specially because at the wedding she'd no longer belong to her father's family, as if she'd died. Her connections with this allegorical death are so many she is even named "dreadful" by Homer.

I cannot get into Lore Olympius. I haven't finished it I can't stand the very young maluable often exploited trope vs the rich, old, often ferocious and stubborn man. Also, age gaps do very much fuck me up. Young people don't get their fantasies of older relationships from thin air. They get them from stories. This is the dream of empowerment, trust and comfort for the young and vulnerable. This is what will make them take the impossible gamble that this kind of relationship might turn out ok, just give him a shot. I'm aware you should be able to tell any story and I'm not tryna kink shame the author. I just know that this is the effect it will have. The only power Persephone has is what he gives her. Shes lacking forms of strength or indulgence: love, experience, protection from harm, self confidence, money (less than his total luxury anyway). And of course, because it's a romance, he allows her power in the relationship. But you only have his word and he'd have everything to gain if he betrayed her. If he went abusive she'd probably stay

Love the reference to Overly Sarcastic Productions’ discussion on this same topic, before their video I didn’t know just how much nuance there was to the history of this story!

I loved this video! You really contextualized why women connect to Persephone’s more modern journey by highlighting her agency in her journey. Love it!

The Wicked & Divine artistic portrayal of Persephone is definitely the best, the vibrant colors on that run are outstanding!

My favorite retelling is The Dark Wife, where Hades is a lesbian and also Persephone chooses to eat the pomegranate, so that Zeus cannot force her to do anything she doesn’t want to: he has no power over the underworld. Trigger warnings for SA, tho, bc Zeus is The Worst.

So what are your thoughts on how the goddesses are portrayed in Lore Olympus? Aside from Persephone I am loving Hera and Hecate.

I loved that you mentioned the idea of women escaping into marriage in the past, cause I just read a GREAT historical romance, called Portrait of a Scotsman, that is very overtly inspired by Persephone and Hades. And the heroine, a suffragette actually starts the novel while painting a picture of a classical theme - the kidnapping of Persephone. She gets tricked into marriage by this guy who made a lot of money doing sort of mild criminal *underworld* things. But the book is great because, even if Hattie is attracted to this guy, she still feels trapped by the marriage and her station as a woman in the 1880s and the plot takes that quite seriously. It's really good, I recommend it wholeheartedly!

I was so happy to hear Punderworld mentioned, I've loved Linda Šejić's work for a while after being introduced to it from following Stjepan's Sunstone series. Also their snippets of cross collaboration are such artist relationship goals. Wonderful video, cheers mate.

I loved the discussion of Persephone as a mother in Hades--I knew something about her portrayal really resonated with me but I couldn't really express it myself. (Hades is indeed great--in what other games can you say you beat up your dad with the help of your mom, grandma, and the devil?)

Any day I’m reminded of the Percy Jackson movies is a bad day.

“I’d be the voice that urged Orpheus when her body was found, I’d be the choice-less hope in grief that drove him underground, I’d be the dreadful need in the devotee that made him turn around, and I’d be the immediate forgiveness in Eurydice, imagine being love by me”

OOH, the Bonnie Diaries video is something I’d love to see!!! I do love Jenny’s video on it, but I’d love to see something diving even deeper into Bonnie’s character, especially from a black woman’s fandom perspective!

I'm in the comments answering the title before watching the video! I think it's because there are so many ways to interpret the original tale. It can be a tragic tale of a mother loosing her child to a monster, it can be a romantic story of two very different people finding true love in each other. Mom can be heartwarmingly caring, or a narcissistic jerk, the girl can be innocent and fragile, or determined and independant, the guy can be just an akward good guy, or he can start (even stay) as a villain-like character. And any in betweens and combinations of these are posible, so when you add a setting and context, it makes for a completely different feel of the story every time.

In a totally different thing: IS THAT CRIMSON CHAINS' ARTWORK OF PATROCHILLES?!?! OMGGGGH

On the 'age gap' I think it is often played to avoid the 'power gap' that would necessarily exist with any of the 'boys her own age' Who but the 'big 3' as gods would have been able to be equal to her, as she comes into her power she would have easily out powered and created an unequal marriage with her as the more powerful one. This was the most equal marriage because she was as powerful as the big 3, and only Hades would have enjoyed that and not felt the need to break her for being as powerful as he was.

shoutout to Overly Sarcastic Productions !

I think the main thing about Demeter becoming a Helicopter parent is usually a reflection of the author's own issues with their own mother. It's a byproduct of the first thing you learn to do. Putting your feelings into words and many authors have a motto, "write what you know" which means they reflect their own parental issues into their work, especially in retellings of Hades and Persephone. Not to mention, Persephone did make a choice. Depending on the interpretation. She WANTED to stay in the Underworld and the only way she could come back was by eating the pomegranate. In that case, Demeter is ignoring Persephone's choice to be an underworld deity and forcing Persephone to come back to serve her. After all, Kore is a minor goddess compared to her mother. In the Underworld, she is considered Hade's equal. That's probably where the controlling mother dynamic comes in. But it more broadly has something to do with the unconscious hatred of winter the writers probably have. In the original story, unlike the other Greek myths, the punishment of causing winter doesn't actually teach the Gods or the Humans a lesson on what to do or not to do. (Which makes sense since you cant Stop Winter from coming) Even when Demeter gets her wish, she doesn't get to keep her child and the gods never stop abducting maidens. They just say, "you can have her for a few months just make sure you don't make a new ice age while she's gone ok." You know who winter affects the most. Humans. What did the humans do to deserve this? nothing. So if we live in an age where we don't believe in the gods punishing us for even the slightest disrespect, it's only natural we turn the person who creates something most of humanity strongly dislikes into something of an antagonist.

i loved how you mentioned the mother daughter relationship and how the myth was centred on persephone and demeters relationship as opposed to now. I cant remember where I read this but I believe greek people really love the myth not because "oo hades and persephone are in love ideal couple" or whatever but because of how it represents the loss of a child since up until recently bride kidnappings were very common. (correct me if im wrong im not greek!!) Also how madeline miller is currently working on a retelling of the myth, I think i saw a few tik tokers talk about how some fans will be disappointed because the story will probably center persephone and demeters relationship and be similar to circe (i havent read the book yet ngjskngsdfg)

love this! i've always been really fascinated and latched onto persephone since i was a teenager. reccently, i read two different sapphic retellings of the seph/hades myth and found them both really interesting in very different ways. one leaned into the abduction/rape aspect of it and one didn't, and they both had some interesting interpretations of demeter, too. (the dark wife by sarah diemer, and captive in the underworld by lianyu tan, if anyone was wondering).

Maybe my favourite portrayal so far is the Theia Mania comics, Queen of the Dead. All the characters have amazing designs and they feel so complex and ultimately just trying their best, it's really cool and I recommend.

I know this is an older vid but I hope you see this, a comment on your last minutes about topic choices-- It's okay if your topics are the same as your peers. You have your own thoughts to share, you have your own memories of experiencing the content that we want to hear about. Don't ever, ever let yourself be turned off of a topic you love just because someone else did it. From the standpoint a viewer, I watch so many videos while I'm working. I love these for something in the background. I will 1000000% watch more than one video on the same topic. Chances are pretty high I'll watch 10. Create away with passion, we appreciate the blood, sweat and tears you put into your work!

SOMEONE FINALLY TALKED ABOUT PUNDERWORLD TOO OMG. I love punderworld and lore olympus so much