Worth pointing out that there was indeed a supplement for the Black Legion in 7th, but a supplement and a Codex aren't really the same thing, and GW look to have stepped away from the supplement system in 8th.

You know what would be nice instead? An actual renegades and heretics codex that's not forge world and in resin.

We only need 5 codexes for CSM: -DG, -TS, -EC, -WE, -good generic CSM codex Actual state: 2/5

Ultramarines have been the codex cover for 2nd, 4th, 5th 6th, 7th, and 8th edition (3rd edition had the Crimson Fists and there were no such thing as codexes for Rogue Trader). Both Ultramarines and Black Legion are for the most part the vanilla Chapter/Legion of the groups, Beyond the Tyranid Hunters and the Black Legions excess of chosen/cult marines there's nothing else to them. Their theme is sticking to the most straight forward understanding of their factions. Zealots - Word Bearers/Black Templars Speed - Night Lords/White Scars Siege Troops - Iron Warriors/Imperial Fists Espionage - Alpha Legion/Raven Guard While the other factions might be undivided they could have unique units especially when they had them back in the Horus Heresy. But I believe they released the CSM book way too early and should've gone with a full relaunch with corrupted heresy-era plastic vehicles, new infantry and a couple of HQ choices.

Even though I have a Black Legion army myself, I don't think that a Black Legion specific Codex is going to come anytime soon

Coolest idea for a spin-off codex of Space Marines I heard was someone suggesting an Iron Warriors and Dark Mechanicum joined codex. But then why not just a Dark Mechanicum codex with Ad Mech units, an upgrade sprue and a bunch of the CSM Daemon Engines in it?

World eaters might get a new codex with the idea of angron emerging again on Armageddon...and considering there's death guard and thousand sons. Emperors children might too...just to go with the 4 gods. since black legion is basically undivided I'd imagine they wouldn't.

I agree with your argument about the Ultramarines not needing their own codex. Essentially, the Space Marines 8th edition released in 2017 is an Ultramarines Codex. All other chapters are simply adhering to the Ultramarines chapter dispositions.

I would think that iron warriors and night lords would get separate codexes before black legion simply because iron warriors use fortifications and ordnance more than any other legion and night lords should have raptors as troops

The faction that needs a codex the most purely for balance reasons, but is not likely to ever get one would be the Ynnari. A lot of issues with Ynnari soup lists (Getting access to Soulburst and Agents of Vect for example) could easily be fixed via a codex, but I doubt it's ever going to happen.

Only counter argument I can come up with is that unlike Ultramarines the Black Legion has had a codex supplement in both 6th and 7th edition. But I don't think they will, or should, get their own book, and I say this as a Black Legion player. Simply put they are the only named faction in the codex that "takes everything". Word Bearers are undivided, so they don't really take the cult marines, and that's basically the case for all the other codex legions. The only Warband I can think of that could be "Poster Boys" for a generic codex without Black Legion is Red Corsairs maybe? But at that point you'd ask yourself: Why not make a "Legions of Chaos" and "Warbands of Chaos" codex, and have Red Corsairs be poster boys for the Warbands. (I personally think it's not a bad idea, based on the fluff and rules like Veterans of the Long War that the None Legions can't use etc) Which is the main reason to split armies these days really: Different stratagems and other special rules.

So... we're getting that Alpha Legion codex right? I couldn't have been the only one to notice Kirioth hesitate and not mention them... maybe he's hiding something... maybe... just maybe, he is Alpharius

I have to disagree entirely. The basis of the argument you're making is that the legions are all too similar to warrant a codex. But they are all massively different, not only in their organization but also is skills and tactics. Well you might say that's the same way Codex Space Marines work. But there are fluff examples of each legion having it's own exclusive units no one else has. Iron Warriors have Tyrant Siege Terminators, and Iron Havocs, and the Warsmith etc. Black Legion has the Hounds of Abbadon and so on. You then might say whoop de do a terimator unit how special. But that's exactly what Death Guard had precodex. The point I'm making is there is much more fluff and possible rules differences between each of the legions than there is between the chapters. It might not seem like it but if GW put the time and effort into it each legion could easily be as unique as Death Guard is currently.

My wish list for new codices: Codex: Emperor's Children Codex: World Eaters Codex: Black Templars Codex: Lost and the Damned Codex: Dark Mechanicum Codex: Exodites Codex: T'au Auxiliaries Codex: Slaught Codex: Hrud Codex: Q'orl Codex: Adeptus Arbites Codex: Eldar Corsairs Bonus: CODEX: SONS OF MALICE/MALICE DAEMONKIN

Even in the first Traitor Legion spat book [Codex: Chaos Space Marines 3/4ed or the Armageddon campaign book] Black Legion was seen as the "Chaos Ultramarines", with the other legions either treating certain units as troops [Khorne Berserkers, Noise Marines etc] or alternate deployment slots [+1 Heavy, -1 Fast for Iron Warriors etc]

As much as I don’t want to admit it your absolutely right. A csm codex that comes out after the various god legion books that had additional undivided legion special charecters or special weapons like night lord units can take chain glaives that sort of thing. Rules for characters from the model that are legion specific would be fun to

Well they could do something similar to what they did in age of sigmar. legion of nagash and beast of chaos pulled together factions that probably were not getting a stand alone battletome. The nagash style would work best because nagash has his primarch but they are called mortarchs. This gives them story flavor and a way to build death armies that are more specific. At least it is an idea that would not require a book for each primarch that may not be worthy of a stand alone book.

Glad you're here to add the girth to Valrak's length lol

I do think it would be awesome to give each vanilla Legion/Founding Chapter a character and special unit. Maybe even special upgrades. And I know some of the Legions have characters but not all: Iron Warriors, Iron Hands, Night Lords, etc don't have any heroes. Imagine playing Iron Hands and having access to Stronos as a leader, Iron Hand Immortals (like Sternguard with an 18" rapid fire, move and can fire Heavy Weapons normally) and maybe Iron Hands can also purchase an upgrade where for +1pt per model they add +1 to their FNP, Termies could maybe pay +5. Night Lords with like Talos as a Leader, access to First Claw as a special unit who are like superior chosen with -1 to hit on them always, always strike first even if they're charged, can deep-strike, and function like mini heroes. Raptors could pay for "enhanced daemon jump packs" and charge in a turn in which they advanced for like +5 pts per Raptor. (just examples).

I remember when the Black legion was big then the 4th. Edition came out. They had that supplement, and the Mutant sprue set. I think it was just zombies . And chaos bits, and some catachan buts? Made for a fun kit bash.

I feel it’s the same reason we won’t ever see an Ultramarines codex. I think eventually Chaos rolls with 5 chaos codexes; Death Guard, Thousand Sons, World Eaters, Emperors Children, and then the Chaos Space Marines.

Black Templars don't follow the normal way of Space Marine codex tactics ? And incorporating the Salmanders, Imperial Fists, Iron Hands, White Scars, and my beloved Black Templars get down played and basically get foot notes in the Ultra Marine codex aka space marine codex, which is a slap to these chapters. Same to the chaos chapters ! Its Bullshit !

Black Legion and Ultramarines have their own codex and many other legions and chapters get shoehorned into them to everyone's detriment. For example, White Scars and Imperial Fists have very different approaches to waging war. A lot of differences can be represented through rules and don't need separate, distinct models, although it would be nice to see the neglected Chapters and Legions get some love. Each has distinctive and flavorful units in the fluff that don't make it to the tabletop. Some may call that bloat, but if that's the case I say bring on the bloat!

I totally agree about the gods making their own legions get new stuff and the only way the black legion could get that stuff is some crazy black crusade.

Obviously you are forgetting that chaos got whole new range of models with the primaries dark angels. Duh

Kiri mate ... i completley agree with you and the reasoning is fool proof. A Black legion codex is at the bottom of the list of likley for GW ... However the last time we all agreed this conclusively it was that a Necron Vs Mech box with new knights was also around that point on the list and look what happened!

Kiroth what is your view on forge world intentions to release codexes for their exclusive chapters like minotaurs red scorpions

Black legion are the vanilla archetype for undivided so it makes no sense to not just have a CSM dex. Although now that the god specific legions are getting their own dedicated books and models, maybe that will give the generic CSM book more room to focus on specialising different undivided legions, maybe even upgrade sprues for the other undivided legions and even legion specific heroes, like we've seen with dark angel and blood angel lieutenants. I would be happy with 5 books, 4 god specific books and one to represent all undivided legions but really hope they don't just overlook the other legions.

Hey Kirioth, My apologies if my other posts earlier sounded like a mad loon lol. 😅. I just think and feel from reading the novels and codecs that the Space Marine Chapter's have so much potential to give on table top like the ones that have existing codex with special characters and miniatures. Same with Chaos and probably goes with other factions as well. I guess the question would be where does it stop ? And how much money would Gamesworkshop would make or lose if they kept making more codecs and unique models per say.. I guess I'm kinda biased because my chapter had a codex and then disappeared and we fellow Black Templars want it back or we will make a crusade to the hq in England, which would probably end up looking like a Monty python search for the holy grail movie 😂. Ok I'm done cheers !

Totally agree with you I like Valrak but that theory is a stretch.

Would be funny if it comes out a new BL codex in december after you made this video :D

They could split the specialised CSM armies for two a codex, for example a world eaters/word bearers codex and an emperors children/night lords codex, as that would make up a full book.

I agree they need major differences to warrant a codex for themselves and the chaos ones do work, minus the two chaos gods that don’t have one yet. But what happened to the black Templar, had a codex..... now no codex and they are so far from being even close to anything normal like the ultramarines. Yet all they got was a deny the witch stratagem in all reality.......

The only undivided legions I could really see getting their own codex is Iron Warriors and Nightlords. These are for a variety of reasons, though it is most obvious with Iron Warriors. One of the big features of IW through the years that is very sadly missing this edition is the ability for them to take non-standard tanks, ones you wouldn't see chaos using. Now to be able to have my basilisk I need to take a Heritics and Renegades army and fit a handful of other units in that I wouldn't always want. As well as if I did this, the tanks would not be effected by my warpsmith. Continuing from that we also see a lack of an HQ in the Seigemaster as well as a few other lore bits that could be in the army

The second edition "space marine" codex was called codex Ultramarines, so we've technically already had one . Also I'm I the only that thinks the white scars should have their own codex, as they operate very differently from the other chapters

I wish that if GW were to expand on mechanicus/dark mech that they would give Iron hands their own codex, in the fluff they are absolutely not a codex compliant chapter, and I think you could make fun game-play changes too them playing around with the direct mechanicus influence on the chapter

The problem with the black legion codex not being a thing is the same as why we don’t have a blood raven codex or captain titis (sorry for the spelling) I do what to see new models for them as well chaos in general

I honestly think that a black legion codex will come out eventually but not for a very long time. I think that for now the individual chaos gods armies will get their own codex and then very slowly they will flesh out the individuality of the chaos undivided legion until a codex can be set for them

Can't wait for the Kroot codex!

Agreed, black legion are the chaos genericos like ultras are the loyalist genericos. They are the template that all other chaos forces are a variant on. Sure they deserve a few specific rules, like warlord traits and a unique tactic, but otherwise they are as deserving of their own codex as hive fleet leviathan or craftworld ulthwe.

I mean there is a precedent for it. Remeber when the Black Legion got their own sub codex just last edition I believe? What would be cool if they used a rerelease for chaos, giving them some new models. Something to kick the Primaris in the nads. Also in regards to different Legiond there are plenty of operational differences between Legions besides just the ones devoted to specific chaos gods. I think the real stand out one is Iron Warriors. They should have a metric ton of artillery and daemon engines compared to any other Legion that there army should practically have more armour then an imperial guard player. Heck they invent and create things a Codex for them could be a mix of them and the Dark Mechanicus. Plenty of edits cause I keep changing my thoughts.

Guardsmen marbo was released but catachan didn’t get its own codex

So whats peoples thoughts now with Shadowspear being announced with greater possessed, Venom Crawler, oblitrators being buffed points reduced for chaos space marines etc? Oh and forgot with havoks having new weapons too and may be terminators? I can see another Black legion supplement for sure.

Good points. I just think the Space Marine codex needs updating , points drops etc. and give the named Loyal core chapters ie White Scars more flavor and you can keep them where they are in that book. They fell in line with the restructuring where the separate Codex books ie Space Wolves did not. Black Templars being exception and noted. Black Legion fits fine as they exist. Maybe just flesh them out with updated models. The Chaos gods and those traitor legions do need separated. Those Primarchs followed that god and pulled those marines into that realm. They should be different from Black Legion. I just hope resurgence of Primarchs don’t destroy the game. It hasn’t so far I don’t feel as long as they are pointed out correctly. I don’t see Bobby G very much after his adjustment.

I agree that a whole codex would be silly but a supplement that gives characters and selections that are only to the black legion ie. Original legion formations or vehicles would set them apart enough for a solid feel. This could pass on to the other nonpatheon legions. This can be a downloadable or 25 page supplement. Not a full codex.

codex chaos space marines 3.5 was literally a black legion codex, with supplements to run the other legions

The Black Legion are the Ultramarines of Chaos. They are the most vanilla Legion in terms of gameplay, the largest Legion with the most access to options. Then you have the other non-aligned Legions who each specialise in a form of warfare. Honestly including rules of Renegade Chapters is the odd thing to me because apparently Renegade Chapters are meant to act and play differently from the Legions.

The Girlyman comment made me write this; With the release of the Primaris/Eldar box last week, I wondered to myself - are GW trying to "kill" the different flavours within factions/armies? The recent removal of IG regiments (for whatever reason), largely "generic" codexes, and several other things. But what stood out for me was the choice of using Siam-Hann as the Eldar scheme in/on the box. Traditionally, they extensively use jetbiikes and such for swift attacks. Yet they stick wraithguard, guardians and a wave serpent in the box - not the most mobile force! I understand that Smurfs and BL are "standard", but they rarely show off anything different or exciting (as a modeller, not a gamer), it all seems very bland. Eg, Primaris are new, but my limited understanding is that they want to fit into the chapters they join, but currently only have one unit of line infantry (2 loadouts), constipated terminators, and ranged skirmishers. No bikers, dedicated heavy weapons teams. Similarly, units on the shelf of the stores are typically generic - most of the units that add character - stingwings, aspect warriors, obliterators, Kroot...all web exclusives. Maybe people would naturally find them if they are interested enough int he lore side of things, looking online or talking to people in store, but the initial impression would be...thats it. Am I making sense? Im just grumbling like the Dwarf I am.

The same reason Ultramarines won’t have their own again. They’re the generic, “if you aren’t one of the special chapters/legions, this is your default”.

I agree on all your points. I was very irritated when they folded the Black Templars into the Vanilla Marine codex. Except for sentementality I still don't see why the DA codex is not in the vanilla codex.

Didn't the black legion get a codex several editions ago?

I love the black legion and I do feel there should be a Black Legion Codex made. There used to be one. I love reading all the books, and yes they are a bit on the expensive side but I enjoy reading them. I also feel there should be a codex for every legion.

Agreed....I can see if fulgrim or angron returning as part of those codexs....or just releasing those codexs.....but aren't those rules in the chaos space marine codex?

Every Edition except 1st and 3rd have had Ultramarines on the Codex cover. ;)

I agree with most with what you are saying but a big reason why they will make a black legion codex is because they are going to pretty much renew the whole chaos marines model line. They need a new codex to promote them like they did with the death guard. i could be wrong but that is my theory.

Valrak wants CUSTODES in KILL TEAM 🤔 🤣🤣🤣

I totally agree, black legion is simply a elite terminator based army, thats it. Terminators, oblis, mutilators and abaddon, vwala you have a black legion core army. I would say word bearers should get their own codex because they have summoning which is done really poorly in this edition and they should revamp that

Just watch them announce a black legion codex tomorrow.

Do you think we will ever get a World Eaters codex ? OR Horus willing an Emperors Children ?

although in 7th edition we had a codex suplement it barely brought anything, only a few relics and a few formation. They might be included in the blackstone fortress box as stratagem tho. their is no ways they could get a black legion codex at this time with such little difference . if they wanted they could create new exclusive unit for black legion only and make them a codex but considering the time and effort making a special unit for every legion its very unlikely. they might do a codex for each god but i think they will always keep choas undivided under the sames model range and codex.

Pretty sure 3rd Ed was the last SM codex to feature anything other than Ultramarines on the cover.

Can we get a battle report with you vs. Valrak?

this needs to be settled with a 2k point battle, you vs valrak

i really hope we get world eater and emperor's children codexs and that they receive the same love nurgle and tzeentch did with their new models

I won't be buying any more codices until I can get my grubby little hands on an Emperor's Children codex.

Why can't we get a Carcharadon Astra book??? They're sort of kinda different from the standard Space Marines in regards to their combat doctrines and psychic powers...

Make sence to have a main book for the legion that are simurer to each other like there will never be different books for imperial Gard

I would much rather the legions stay together in one codex but give them flavour through something like chapter tactics/warlord traits/spells. But I got rid of my chaos models ages ago. Black legion had always been my favourite but i don't know if getting their own codex would bring me back to them in 40k. Chaos marine kill team is peaking my interest though.

Agree that chaos undivided legions shouldn't get there own codices however supplements would be the way to go, kinda like the gellerpox and starstriders, just add 2 or 3 unique units and 3 or 4 uniques rules and maybe 2 or 3 new stratagems and your good

I agree with you for the most part. Though BL did have a "codex" in seventh it was a grand total of 1 page of -Ish rules. If GW wants to put out variations of the other 5 legions then they could drop those into a Chapter Approved. As I started with IW back in 3rd/4th having one book with rule changes makes me happy and GW. Less books to print and carry and flavor is there to be had. Now I wouldn't mind a new unit for each of the five. Maybe 2 wound raptors/warptalons for NL, new tank/deamon engine for IW, new elite unit for BL, etc. As a long time Chaos Undecided player I don't need/want 6 tons of books. II'd rather have flavor on the small scale that's playable with a new unit or two.

Mini Codex such as Rogue Trader perhaps?

I think you're right in that we won't be seeing a Black Legion codex, at least not without a massive shift in the current lore to make the Black Legion not the 'default' for CSM. Instead however, if we see Chaos be fleshed out, it'll be in the form of a World Eaters and Emperor's Children (bonus points if the latter is for "Slaaneshmas") codices. I main Dark Angels, and yeah, your loyalist comparison is dead on. Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, etc, all play differently enough to truly be separate from the whole of "Space Marines", whereas the Ultramarines are the perfect poster-boys for the default. Likewise, the Black Legion is that same default for Chaos Space Marines. Hell, the Black Legion has been allowing marines from any other traitor legion / warband in for millennia, so you could argue their defining trait is that the don't have the traits of Chosen Legions (Death Guard, Emperor's Children, etc). Now, do I hope we see new models come out not just for chosen legions? Of course. A hefty amount of CSM models are ancient as hell and don't hold up so great without kit-bashing and conversions these days, so seeing like Obliterators and Abaddon get some love would be great. I just wouldn't expect a full-blown BL codex.

Earlier this year I would've 100% agreed but after the rogue trader box came with 2 codices nothing is too small for a codex. Do I think they're getting a hardback book with its own release? No. Could they be getting they're own little book with the release of the blackstone fortress game like gellarpox infected? Maybe.

There might be a chance of a Black Legion Codex, only if because unlike the other Chaos Undivided Legions they are the Chosen Legion, the Leaders of the Traitors and could then therefore have blessing granted upon for that reason that the others do not have.

Good sense as always. And while it would be nice to get some new CSM models, as someone who is old and crap myself, I have a lot of affection for the existing set of old, crap Chaos Space Marines.

How to repeat the same 2-minute point for 15 minutes. By Kirinoth. ;)

Ultramarines were on the 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th edition codices; 3rd had Crimson Fists. Black Legion were on the cover of 3.5 and 4th editions codices; 5th and 7th didnt get a codex, and 6th and 8th use artwork depicting the Blood Gorgons from the epononymous novel. That being said, you are correct in how the BL is the default the same the Ultras are default.

i also don't see them getting their own codex. like you said, Space Wolves, Dark Angels, and Blood Angels have enough variation to keep them out of the Space Marine Codex. they have unique units and wargear. Same can be said with Death Guard and Thousand Sons. they have unique units and wargear that no other Chaos Marine legion can take. Death Guard are the only ones to use manreapers. Thousand Sons are the only ones capable of using inferno bolters. I could see Emperor's Children come out before Black Legion, mainly cause they are the only ones to really utilize sonic weaponry.

Chaos should just be divided into Khorne, Slaanesh, Nurgle, Tzeentch and Undivided codexes, scrap the renegades/CSM/Demons distinctions but keep the army rules the same, still no full on soup. That's what makes sense to me at least

The Black Legion and the Chaos Space Marine Codex have the same relationship the Ultramarines have to the Space marine codex. To put simply; The codices are based around them, Black Legion IS THE undivided legion, and the ultramarine's primarch literally wrote the framework that (nearly) all Space Marine chapters are based around. There is nothing about them that is worth making a separate book on, they have everything in the regular codices. They are the posterboys of the generic codices. There is no precedent (as far as I know) for an army that represents a codex as a whole, getting their own codex. If Black legion get models and rules specific to their legion, then it'll just be in the CSM codex. I think it is more probable that they'll release an updated codex for CSM if they do release new models for BL, though I think that will also not happen. I watched Valrak's video yesterday, and I must've missed where he suggested BL getting their own codex. I have to strongly disagree with that notion, Valrak is setting himself up for disappointment. On another note: I do think white scars, Iron hands, and salamanders could get their own codex, they can always build upon what makes them unique (especially with Iron Hands, just look at they have done with the Adeptus Mechanicus), whats stopping them for doing so is fact that they will saturate their own game with space marine codices.

Damn now I want a kroot codex

I agree on the standalone codex, but I also think they could get a suplement like Ultramarines, Raven Guard etc have. P.S. Ultramarines due have a codex... 😁 2nd edition SM codex is titled Codex: Ultramarines. I should know as a proud owner of that GWs piece of history.

Wait we have had rumors of a kroot codex and the black legion was had an expansion, in 6th and got formation in traitors hate and traitor legion expansion books

Black Legion is the Ultramarines of Chaos.

New models do not always mean a new codex. And Black legion is the vanilla chaos space marine, I don't think the undivided chaos legions will get a codex, and even if they did, I feel like the Black Legion would be the least likely to get one.

I disagree with the finer points of your argument - as you point out MSons and DG used to be rolled into CSM; similarly one could observe that Black Templars used to be their own codex and now are rolled into VSM. Codexes come and codexes go. All chapters/legions have their distinguishing features and which ones get their own codex is largely based on the arbitrary decision of GW regarding which model lines they want to develop more, rather than some being more different than others. But that being said: I agree that as long as they don’t ALL get their own codexes, then yes, Black legion and ultramarines will always be the baseline.

Totally agree, whilst fluff wise yes would be cool they could do that in a art expanded art book form similar to visions of heresy etc, range just like the orks desperately needs an update which is awesome but black legion codex would be utterly pointless

Black Templars need their own codex before black Legion...

Agree

Kirioth confirmed, Kroot codex 2019!!! XD

I think they need to officially release the Codex for the ANGRY MARINES!!!

There already was a black legion codex in 7th edition

iron hands should have had their own codex, they shouldn't have been retconned into being codex compliant

You forgot the black templars

My question with black legion who rivals the old sons of horus. I would guess the ultramarines.

Oh please can Ultramarines get their own codex. Personally, I think they should do it for all the big legions. You say there is not an operational difference. GW could easily expand on each faction to make them diverse enough to warrant their own dex.

Vulkan lives Stomp Stomp!

Every CSM codex is Codex Black Legion... in the same way that every space marine codex is codex Ultramarines. anything else is just variations on their theme

As a Black Legion player, this makes me sad.

It'd be nice at least if they update the black legion army traits to at least not be incredibly useless for the army, I mean does Anyone ever take the black legion for their legion trait? Special character(abby himself) sure, the stratagem is okay, the warlord trait is neat... but the legion traits could use an overhaul and it'd be just peachy if they could make the death to the false emperor rule apply against non-imperial foes in some way... or at least options for making this happen... let the demagogues do it or a warlord trait or... Something