My father, who flew 56 missions as a waist gunner in B-26s over Europe in WW2, related this exact fact to me as a child. It was counterintuitive to me as a child until he explained the reasons. One of the few things he discussed about those days.
@BlutoandCo Жыл бұрын
The b-26 didnt have "waist" guns. Forward facing fired by pilot, dorsal turret and tail turret. But no waist guns.
@nohphd Жыл бұрын
@@BlutoandCo-Remarkable! I’ve got his service records. He definitely flew the missions in B-26s. He self-identified as a B-26 waist gunner. I’ve gone to bomb group reunions and watched him with his peers. I’ve read USAAF crash records for B-26s where he and the pilot brought a plane back after the rest of the crew parachuted. No idea why he called himself a waist gunner. I never looked at photos carefully. Too late to ask him today.
@dv270salto7 Жыл бұрын
@@BlutoandCo Ventral and Waist Guns A flexible mount for a single .30-caliber designed to fire through the rear crew entry hatch was introduced in the earliest B-26 models, the so called "tunnel" gun. This was in response to complaints about the lack of downward defensive firepower. Two waist .30-caliber waist guns were also added to the earlier models. The "B-26B-1" did away with the single ventral gun and had waist positions augmented. Waist windows were located on each side of the aft fuselage. Each window now had a single .50 Browning M-2 Machine gun. The guns were mounted on swivels. Ammunition canisters were mounted on the fuselage ceiling with the belts running down to the guns. Sliding hatches covered the waist openings when not in use. With the B-26C-5-MO, the side waist gun doors were enlarged and moved one station aft to improve the angle of fire down and to the front. Also with this model, a single larger circular scanning window, replacing the two smaller ones, was located above each waist door to give the gunner a better view.
@MichaelKingsfordGray Жыл бұрын
Your father: "Mr. nohphd"??? Liar!
@settebello6498 Жыл бұрын
Well the B-26G at the United States Air Force Museum has waist guns…
@raywhitehead730 Жыл бұрын
Very well documented. I have shot many thousands of 7.62 rounds, belted with tracers. What bothered me , was that I knew , as soon as I shot, everyone knew where the rounds were coming from: making me a lit up target immediately.
@boondocker7964 Жыл бұрын
Gun teams were bullet magnets.
@kevinkane7667 Жыл бұрын
Looks beautiful on a warm dark night on the ranges.
@NFLYoungBoy223 Жыл бұрын
@@kevinkane7667 dark damp foggy cold morning on the range
@Meower68 Жыл бұрын
Murphy's Laws of Combat: tracer bullets work BOTH ways.
@HossBlacksilver Жыл бұрын
Murphy's rules of combat, tracers work both ways.
@flyboymb Жыл бұрын
I was one of the last soldiers in my unit off the plane into Afghanistan. I lined up for my initial ammo load. When I got to the front of the line, I discovered that I was being given about 80% tracer rounds that were left over from the initial ammo draw. I asked for some replacements, stating that being the only guy lobbing out fireballs every shot, I would draw a lot of attention. I was told this was all the ammunition we'd get at that time (bs, they just didn't want to crack another case open). Fortunately, we had to requalify because the change in air density changed the bullet trajectory from our US qualification. Needless to say, I suddenly started to shoot very poorly after having seemingly sighted in my weapon with my ball rounds. In fact, I went through nearly my total initial load trying to "get used to the new sight picture". I got to refill my mags with the new AP silver tipped rounds making me quite the happy camper.
@comfortablynumb9342 Жыл бұрын
Thanks for serving!
@rambler2885 Жыл бұрын
What cal.are u talking about ware u a machine gunner cause I thought the ap for 5.56 were greentip and black for 30-06
@felixthecat265 Жыл бұрын
@@rambler2885 No.. greentip is standard NATO 5.56 black tip is AP
@Jamesbrown-xi5ih Жыл бұрын
@@felixthecat265 Greentip is Light Armor Piercing.
@felixthecat265 Жыл бұрын
@@Jamesbrown-xi5ih Well it is and it isn't.. US "Greentip" is 5.56x45mm NATO to the newer (SS109) specification. This is not officially considered to be an armour piercing round although it does have a steel pin "Penetrator" beneath the jacket. The SS109 bullet was adopted as a replacement for the original .223 Remington bullet which was used in the M16. The original Remington 55gn .223 round, known as the M193 was used in the original M16 rifles. The SS109 bullet was adopted by NATO in 1970 to replace the 7.62x51 round as a NATO standard. The Belgian SS109 round had the same dimensions as the M193 round but used a heavier and longer bullet that was more stable and had better penetration than the M193 which was notoriously unstable. The new SS109 round was known as the M855 round in the US. The steel pin in the bullet was not designed as a penetrator as in a conventional AP round with a tungsten penetrator. The idea was that by putting a lighter steel section in the front of the bullet the weight was moved back and the stability improved. The overall weight of the bullet was increased to 62gn and the length of the bullet increased. This produced a bullet which remained stable out to 800m and was capable of penetrating a standard steel helment at that range, which the M193 failed to do because it had tumbled by that distance. The longer bullet however needed to be spun faster than the barrel of the original M16 rifle did to remain stable, so the US had to rebarrel their M16s to the new, faster twist specification. For a time there were both slow and fast spin barrels in service, so there had to be a way of showing the difference between the old M193 ammo and the new M855 ammo which you could only use in the faster spin barrels. This was done by giving the new M855 ammo a green tip. M855 is classified as a "full metal jacket ball round" not Armor Piercing (AP) ammunition. 5.56 AP ammuntion does exist, has a tungsten penetrator and a black tip which designated AP in NATO standard marking. Sorry for the long explanation, but it is not a simple answer!
@pirobot668beta Жыл бұрын
When I was in Basic Training, tracers were considered 'training wheels'! Seeing tracers disappear behind the target gives the false impression that you hit the target, and therefore you won't adjust your aim. More effective than tracers are 'spotting rounds': they flash brightly when hitting the target. Incendiary rounds serve the role of 'spotters', in most situations.
@offshoretomorrow3346 Жыл бұрын
Thanks for explaining something the video didn't!
@stevepirie8130 Жыл бұрын
The 94mm LAW had 9mm spotting rounds, very useful and easy to spot the flash to adjust as you only have one rocket.
@leekiggins3464 Жыл бұрын
My father flew p-51s in combat over Japan from Iwo Jima. He told me that their .50 cal belts held 5 different rounds in succession: ball, armor piercing, incendiary, explosive, and tracer
@stopspammandm Жыл бұрын
Cool. What Sqn was he in?
@leek2278 Жыл бұрын
@@stopspammandm The 47th fighter squadron. Their planes were all named for characters in Al Capp's L'il Abner, he flew a P-51 named "Clamwinkle McSlop". There are photos of it online.
@stopspammandm Жыл бұрын
@@leek2278 So was my Dad!. I remember him seeing a picture of LiL' Butch and saying he flew that once. I have PDF copies of all of the 47th Mission Reports for it's time on Iwo and found the name Kiggins several times including on on 7/20/45 when he was in the same Flight as my father. I'd be happy to send them to you if you'd like.
@stopspammandm Жыл бұрын
@@leek2278 I also ran across this History Channel episode of Dogfights when they featured a 47th mission over Japan that your Dad was on. Based in the Mission reports the Flight covered in the episode is YELLOW FLIGHT and your father was in GREEN FLIGHT. kzfaq.info/get/bejne/atOifsV7lbbQnHU.html
@michaelmorales7654 Жыл бұрын
@@stopspammandm This is cool! Hope you and Kiggins made contact!
@johngaither9263 Жыл бұрын
Dad was a B-29 navigator and never mentioned tracers. He did complain about how prior to a mission the crew less the AC and copilot were tasked with linking up the .50 BMG rounds with the links that arrived loose in crates. They used a 5 round clamshell linking device and the process took nearly all day long. On return the unfired belts were collected. Next mission same process all over.
@davidb6576 Жыл бұрын
On the positive side, the crews had a good incentive to do the process correctly...
@riproar11 Жыл бұрын
Are you certain about this? I saw WWII factory footage of an automated machine assembling belt links and 50-caliber rounds into long belts streaming out rather quickly.
@CDSAfghan Жыл бұрын
@@riproar11 Welcome to the military. How many times throughout my career I thought "isn't there a machine that does this?"
@riproar11 Жыл бұрын
@@CDSAfghan I saw the ammo belt assembly machine footage in a WWII-made film about the heavy bomber campaigns. Maybe such machines only existed then because there was so much war bond money being raised as a result of these films. I saw this back in the early 1990s on The History Channel so it never even was a thought to me that ammo belts were hand-assembled. Those A-10 and anti-missile systems ammo belts must be machine-assembled.
@ryanyamashiro212 Жыл бұрын
@@riproar11 The GAU-8 gun uses a linkless feed system.
@DoudD Жыл бұрын
Very interesting and well presented. My father was a B17 and B29 pilot. I recall him mentioning tracer rounds but not in any detail. However, to the topic at hand, he often mentioned that procedure changes, 'field modifications', and tactics changes were constant; sometimes as official edict and other times very much ad hoc and spontaneous. Off topic, but something that I always find amazing, is how young the aircrews were. Dad was only 22 when he was discharged in December '45. Often the gunners and other crewmen were only 18-20 years old. I remember Dad saying that 25 year old pilots were considered "the old guys" of the group.
@EneTheGene5 ай бұрын
On the topic of flying personel age, there was a Finnish pilot (eventual flying ace) called Yrjö Turkka who was around 30 when the war started in 1939. He got the nickname of "Pappa", meaning grandfather in Finnish.
@JGCR59 Жыл бұрын
German night fighters eliminated tracers as well. There was a weaker tracer called "Glimmspur" instead of "Leuchtspur" for night fighting but they were only used for forward firing guns. The upward firing "Schräge Musik" guns used no tracers at all
@Gman29 Жыл бұрын
the night tracer also would be minengeschoss
@bbrother92 Жыл бұрын
Why they did this?
@HydroSnips Жыл бұрын
@@bbrother92 Because night fighter’s greatest asset was stealth, something their radar allowed them to do perfectly. Removing tracers means you can remain unseen by your target and other nearby bombers even when firing. Schrägemusik was probably the next greatest asset. The radar & upward cannon combo killed hundreds (thousands even) or Commonwealth aircrew in the night offensive. Often aircrew had no idea what had happened, as a routine operation suddenly, in an eye blink, becomes a blazing, crippled deathtrap without anyone ever seeing the fighter responsible.
@sliceofbread26115 ай бұрын
@@HydroSnipsto me it seems so hard to aim these Schrägemusik cannons while flying.. i guess it is something you get used to. but it seems confusing to me..
@randyrobey5643 Жыл бұрын
I have long wondered how accurate tracers were when indicating bullet flight paths. This is the first information I have ever seen on the subject. Nice video.
@felixthecat265 Жыл бұрын
Its not actually correct. Tracer ammuntion can never follow ball ammuntion accurately. For a start the weight of the bullet is constantly changing and secondly the tracer efflux has the effect of reducing the drag. Tracer will usually always fly high over ball. The other issue with tracer is that it has considerably lower lethality than solid rounds, again because of the reduced mass. Only ever use tracer to give a target indication and never as the basis for aiming.
@stevepirie8130 Жыл бұрын
In my 22 years service I found if zeroed at 300m point of aim at 400m tracer could fly higher up to head height whilst ball would be chest high. Tracer is a great aid to indicate targets and on mg belts the upcoming barrel change to the crew.
@peasant8246 Жыл бұрын
Your dedication to reporting the exact sources of the pages you show on screen is commendable.
@motocrusader72 Жыл бұрын
While inbound to our LZ in Sierra Leone in 1997, our port gunner test fired his .50 cal into the ocean. Our Cobra gunships had received fire that day so everyone was a little jumpy. Sure enough, the A/C trailing us (we were lead ship) screamed out “you’re taking fire” repeatedly over the net. About 10 seconds into our evasive maneuvering I surmised that he must have seen our tracers and passed that over the IC. Could have used this analysis on the ship while deciding ammunition configurations.
@cameronwebster6866 Жыл бұрын
I would imagine that tracers are more useful in an AtG role, as the fact that you are shooting at something on the ground means you can't have the "it looks like you are hitting the target, but the bullets are actually going behind it" problem.
@johnandrobinmccoy8305 Жыл бұрын
We always announced to the other aircraft in our formation that we were performing a test fire, to avoid any confusion, and that everyone got into trail formation at that time.
@marcusmoonstein242 Жыл бұрын
The lesson to be learned here is that tracers are very effective when sighting targets for ground fighting, but much less useful on aircraft due to the relative speeds involved. When I was in the army tracers were the primary means for sighting machine gun fire, and I can tell you they're a real attention grabber when they're heading in your direction!
@mointz Жыл бұрын
I would not say on all aircraft, as on fighters they are absolutely essential to have a chance in hell hitting another fast moving target.
@alanb76 Жыл бұрын
The problem with watching tracers, or the bullets themselves (more often the atmospheric distortion from the shock wave), or under the right conditions a contrail the bullet leaves behind is the part you see well is the part closer to you while the important part of the arc is so far away it is overwhelmed by the closer in part. On occasions we have seen these effects when shooting targets at 500 to 1000 yards, and the appearance is that the bullet is going to strike very high as that is the part of the trajectory that is visible, farther out where it drops into the bullseye is not really visible enough to see. In the case of a machine gun the rounds in closer would essentially overwhelm the ability to see anything at great distance.
@GroovesAndLands5 ай бұрын
I've done a lot of competition long range shooting. With some practice, you get darn good at watching the "trace" (really just the atmospheric distortion) and following it down onto the target @ 200-1500 yards. FWIW, the very best tool I've used for watching trace is a pair of image-stabilized binoculars...Better than the best Swaro or Zeiss spotting scopes, better than the very best riflescopes... While I'm on the topic, I was once out plinking with some pals on a cold, blustery day. We were on one hilltop, shooting at steel targets on another hill. Ranges were 400-1100 yards. What I'm getting at, is the bullets were flying very high above the ground/valley - and were thus exposed to a LOT of wind. Atmospherics that day were perfect for REALLY seeing the trace - and it was just crazy seeing the trace/wake shed off the bullets in high wind. The wind was going left to right, and you could CLEARLY watch the trace shed off the bullet from left to right; as the bullet obviously weathervaned into the wind.
@alanb765 ай бұрын
@@GroovesAndLands The image stabilized binoculars are truly amazing for seeing bullet vortexes. Makes it easy to see them.
@SoloRenegade Жыл бұрын
when I was overseas, we'd often load no tracers, except for the the last 3-5 rounds to indicate end of the mag. but over time you develop an ability to subconsciously round count and didn't need them, and they could potentially alert the enemy you were about to reload. Most of us just stopped using tracer altogether because we didn't need them and preferred stealth.
@ret7army Жыл бұрын
What were you? In the army I was never issued tracer except in the belt for an mg.
@richardjames1812 Жыл бұрын
I was issued 5.56 tracers in the Army National Guard only for night fire qualification and familiarization firing with "gas mask" on (since proper shouldering and sighting of the M16A2 with that on was impossible).
@ShortArmOfGod Жыл бұрын
Did you carry empty m1 clips to throw against the ground as well? Rofl.
@SoloRenegade Жыл бұрын
@@ret7army Served under the Army, Marines, and Navy. long story. We got everything, including SOCOM gear. It was a weird set if circumstances for my unit whenever we got deployed. Totally out of our control, but made for great deployments.
@SoloRenegade Жыл бұрын
@@ShortArmOfGod Nope, no M1s. We had M16A4s, M4s, M9s, and we customized our rifles to the gills (custom triggers, custom stocks, rails, slings, grips, magpul mags, custom sights and selectors, etc.). We had Aimpoint, EoTech and Trijicon optics (everyone got to choose which they wanted as we had enough for everyone to have all three), as well as thermal scopes, helmet mounted thermals, night vision optics, laser designators, all our M240 and M2 had thermal scopes, etc. We were told we were given priority for gear behind only SOCOM, as our job was considered vital, and we were accomplishing a lot.
@richardjames1812 Жыл бұрын
As always, your use of archival primary source documents is impeccable. Every time a new one comes up, I pause and read every line. I never knew that ammo belt composition changed over time, but it makes perfect sense. The 1945 battle lessons document would be interesting to read cover to cover! Is that available online?
@primmakinsofis614 Жыл бұрын
This channel often includes in the description a link to a Google Drive location which includes the documents shown in the video. Unfortunately, such a link is not included in the description for this video. That said, I think the document can be found at the "Ike Skelton Combined Arms Research Library" (if you search for that name you should find the site easily). It hosts numerous WWII-era U.S. military publications. Put "Battle Experiences" into the search bar at the top right of the site and the first result should be the document shown in the video (the cover appears to match).
@WWIIUSBombers Жыл бұрын
I added a link to the slides shown in the Video. See the video description.
@johnlovett8341 Жыл бұрын
Thanks for putting the gunnery documents in the video. They really helped me finally connect the dots and understand the "tracer illusion" .
@anthonyburke5656 Жыл бұрын
I was Special Forces, we NEVER used tracer, not because it indicated where the firer was (although that was a consideration) BUT because tracer projectiles have a very different trajectory than other projectiles, thus misleading and actually “training” the shooter to miss.
@tagscientist5 ай бұрын
Interesting comment
@anthonyburke56565 ай бұрын
@@tagscientist see flyboymb below, his comment seems to bear me out in that his units personnel had a prejudice against tracer. It should be noted that Afghanistan engagements were fought at ranges far outside the thinking that had been considered as “normal” for infantry from WW1 on wards. Military planners do always plan for the last war it seems, even the venerable AK47 was designed to be used under 300 metres, compare that to the design of the SMLE which was designed at the time of the Second Boer War and was “good” out to 600 metres (but shitty up close). Then look at the AR 15 (a real piece of crap), really designed for point blank work in the jungles of Vietnam.
@williambefort5327 Жыл бұрын
By the 1960s the standard belt loading for .50 caliber MGs on ground vehicles was 4API + 1 APIT; for 7.62mms it was 4 ball, 1 tracer. As a squad leader in Vietnam I liked to carry an all-tracer magazine in my 5.56mm M16A1. It was a tool to indicate where the squad should concentrate fire, and it seemed to have some intimidating effect on the opposition.
@samuelhowie45435 ай бұрын
I remember reading in a book on Vietnam by a veteran he would do the same thing plus use it to show gunship helicopters which direction they needed to put their rockets .
@SkyCharter Жыл бұрын
I once spoke with a former WWII waist gunner at an air show some 25 years ago. He mentioned they ignored their tracer rounds.
@SJR_Media_Group Жыл бұрын
*_Excellent and well thought out review of WWII Air Power M2 Guns and Ammo..._* It has been known for a long time that Tracers are not as accurate as other Ammo loads. The thought was the benefit of 'seeing' actual bullets was greater than the loss in accuracy. This is the fist time I have heard about the bullet deviation, actual round vs what Airmen thought was true ballistic path. It makes sense. Gunny has an old saying... *_Tracers work BOTH WAYS_* Nothing says return accurate fire back as does Tracers giving enemy the exact location where they came from. I have seen fire power demonstrations with Attack Helicopters firing their Mini-Guns. They have a rate of fire of around 4,000 rounds per minute. Ammo loads with Tracers every 1/5th or every 1/10th. At that high rate of fire, looks like the gunners are painting with fire. It has been described as a 'Fire Hose of Glowing Lead'. *_I want to see a fire power demonstration with ALL Tracers at dusk. That would be spectacular._*
@raywhitehead730 Жыл бұрын
You can see that on you tube. Mini guns at night.
@SJR_Media_Group Жыл бұрын
@@raywhitehead730 Thanks for the reply. I will check around KZfaq.
@kg4lod Жыл бұрын
ALL tracers and a every 10th won't look any different to the human eye at those rates of fire. The optic nerve endings don't repolarize fast enough to detect the gaps and the total brightness of the existing tracer mix is already enough to saturate the retina. This is why movies can run at only 24 still pictures per second and you only see motion or why you can't tell which lightbulb in the office ceiling is brighter, just by staring at them.
@SJR_Media_Group Жыл бұрын
@@kg4lod Thanks for comment.. I just learned something new today. My mission to learn 1 new thing a day just got a check mark. Thanks again.
@cevgunnerF Жыл бұрын
There's a video you can get from Dillon Precision, "Machine Gun Magic" last few minutes is night fire at drones flown across the range. Mountains make great backstops.
@JosephSperrazza6 ай бұрын
Superb video! My father worked at the Aberdeen Proving Ground at the Ballistics Research Lab during WWII (eventually being the Assistant Director there). I recall him speaking disparagingly about tracer use when I was a child. I now have a better understanding of why. I'd love to see more about WWII bomber self-defense. I'll browse through your videos tonight. Thank you!
@leviathanfafner Жыл бұрын
My Dad was in Vietnam and used the M2 .50 and M60 on his LCM8 landing craft. He said they would often replace the tracers with ball rounds and save up the tracers to use on its belt for fun and profit. One thing he did use tracers for was directing fire of his machine guns by firing 45APC tracers he "aquired". The slow moving .45 tracer was easy to see.
@drizler Жыл бұрын
I’ll add this to things I never knew. I always liked the few times I got to shoot tracers while in the army and National Guard. It was never lost on me that in a case where someone was shooting back it would definitely be painting a target on the source and require immediate moving after each burst
@FirstDagger Жыл бұрын
So basically War Thunder has the .50 cal turret ammo belt loadouts totally wrong, thanks for this insight.
@kimjanek646 Жыл бұрын
Time for custom belts 😌 I used to be against it but can’t get any more broken 😂
@donalddodson7365 Жыл бұрын
Thank you. We who fought at ground level knew our tracers helped to direct enemy fire right back to us. For me, a few tracers helped reawaken my "muscle memory" for night shooting.
@Subpac_ww2 Жыл бұрын
Fun fact. US Navy submarines and PT boats utilized the AN-M2 as well due to the lighter weight and higher rate of fire. It was also shorter so easier to stow in a cramped magazine as would be found on either a sub or a devil boat. USS Cod frequently deployed with six AN-M2 brownings and they could be brought up and installed on pintle mounts alongside the fairwater or up on the bridge.
@aronsigurjonsson7648 Жыл бұрын
The intent of this comment is to tell you I love your videos and watch every single one
@MarkSmith-js2pu Жыл бұрын
Good one😊
@bradleyeatchel1413 Жыл бұрын
My Father was a ball/tail gunner on B17's in england. He told me every 5th shell was a tracer and he shot them on every training and missions encluding thier last mission over Pilson. They used his training films to train other gunners. His pilot wanted him in the tail most times because of his accuracy shooting the Brownings developed here in Morgan Utah by J.M. Browning. At his bomb group reunions others also told me that thier belts had armor piercing mixed in. His sights had the lighted redicals in which he would frame in the wing tips and began firing out to 1000 yards.
@allangibson8494 Жыл бұрын
Incendiary’s were very effective against bombers but ineffective against interceptors because the effectiveness depended on the temperature of the fuel in the tanks. Tanks with gasoline below 40C (or F…) will detonate if an incendiary penetrates them as the vapour in the tanks is below upper explosive limit. The most dangerous tank is actually an almost empty one as the pressure generated is proportional to the vapour space volume. Some war fighters controlled this by bleeding exhaust gas from the engines into the fuel tanks to inert them. Bulk crude oil tankers do the same thing today (and LNG tankers use nitrogen blankets) for the same reason.
@Schimml0rd Жыл бұрын
Interesting
@exn2075 ай бұрын
The german JU-52 flew a lot of mission with gasoline in drums. An Army soldier told, that the crew was totally relaxed on the mission he was passenger. He was frightend. Then the pilot told him that the drums were full. Flying back with empty drums would be an suicide mission.
@marksmith9176 Жыл бұрын
That is a great breakdown of how the ball turret works. I have met and spoke to two ball turret gunners and they never fully told me how those things worked. They just complained how small, tight, cold and sometimes boring it was to be in there for so long. They told me once there in they don’t come out until over safe airspace which can be very long it that position. Both me told me there fear was the ball turret being damaged and a gear up landing.
@RemusKingOfRome Жыл бұрын
At night, it doesn't take much light to blind a gunner.. At night, glow from exhausts could be easily seen so i suspect the glow from a VERY hot AP bullet could be seen. BTW, excellent video.
@thomasfx31906 ай бұрын
I loved how you sourced this out of old army air corps documents, we'll done!
@soupwizard Жыл бұрын
4:09 Could be that incendiary caused 73% of the observed damaged planes because smoke and fire are easily visible at distance - heavy damage to aircraft from AP (to say engines and other mechanicals) wouldn't be as visible.
@jbepsilon Жыл бұрын
I remember reading somewhere that pilots/gunners liked incendiary because there's a visible flash when hitting. Shooting ball ammo at a rapidly moving target behind a thick armored windscreen I'd guess it'd be very hard to see whether you hit or not.
@Daniel-wy2kx Жыл бұрын
@@jbepsilon whilst also getting shot at yourself
@frankmiller95 Жыл бұрын
Well done. This provides yet another reason to wish my father, a ROG on a B17 in the "Bloody 100th" was still around.
@ret7army Жыл бұрын
56th Fighter Group commonly loaded 250 rounds of tracer at the end of their belts of ammo. One pilot however went with 500 tracers again at the end of the ammo belts. As another posted this was to indicate going empty on ammo. One time a different pilot was flying and engaged some Germans ... when he saw the tracers he broke off thinking he was about out of ammo. He related that had he known there was 500 rounds of tracers he would have pushed his attack and gotten another kill
@francescofissore161 Жыл бұрын
... 250 of course ought mean about 30 - 32 tracer rounds per each ammo belt, I believe? Sure not 250 per each belt (even more so 500), since on P-47s one single belt was made up of 425 rounds in total.
@MrAlwaysBlue Жыл бұрын
This is a great series of videos, I look forward to each release. Any chance in the future of a series on RAF Bomber Command? The challenges of operating at night would make a fascinating study.
@beverlychmelik5504 Жыл бұрын
When I was working on B-52s back in the late 70s and early 80s, we used .50 API in our tail guns.
@richardjames1812 Жыл бұрын
I thought B-52's had 20mm tail guns?
@beverlychmelik5504 Жыл бұрын
@@richardjames1812 The H models had the 20MM vulcans and some of the b models had the 20mm M39s. However every other ones had 4 AN2 50 Cal Mgs.
@richardjames1812 Жыл бұрын
@@beverlychmelik5504 Got it, thx!
@Carstuff111 Жыл бұрын
Well, this was an unexpected piece of awesome. This is my first video to watch of yours, and I have now subscribed!
@shaymcquaid Жыл бұрын
Jesus ,Bro...I thought I was a WW2 nerd! Keep up the work!!!
@WWIIUSBombers Жыл бұрын
Thanks for the contribution to the channel, it is appreciated!
@stevepirie8130 Жыл бұрын
4 ball+1 tracer is called, “4 bit.” 1 ball+1 tracer is “1 bit.” Just an FYI. (4b1t) In the ground role tracer are very useful especially for commanders to indicate a target. My first mag were 30 tracer. Once my unit was engaging as per my fire control order I’d switch to all ball to cover any gaps in fire if unlucky to get too many stoppages. Most of my ammo though I’d use as a ready reserve. Tracer flies slightly higher than ball I found but not enough to worry about once you were experienced. We never zeroed with tracer not because of the differences to ball but for fire risk. Normally you zeroed at 100m range but perfect would have been 300m but you’d be running up and down all day long. 25m isn’t ideal but can work. Tracer ignites at 100m unless your barrel is red hot then it ignites sooner. So unless you want lots of little fires wasting your precious range time you zero with ball. When using mgs we’d group a few at the end of a belt to remind the crew of an upcoming barrel change. This was in the tripod role firing sustained fire of bursts of 20. You soon overheat them being air cooled. In the All Arms Air Defence role we used 1 bit with mgs on larch poles which made it very exciting for pilots coming in. Your no.2 screams left-right-up-down or on in your ear. In my day it was 50 round bursts but I think barrel wear and cost made them reduce it. Without tracer you’d have next to no chance adjusting air targets.
@batterymooch Жыл бұрын
Thank you for doing this video! Some would find it to be an obscure topic but it was fascinating, things I never knew or thought about…subscribed!
@mikebunner34985 ай бұрын
A very informative video. Thank you! My step-father inlaw was a B-17 copilot. Walt talked about how young these crews were. He also mentioned that the crews ate together at large tables. The 8th flew several day missions. He said often the day after a mission, entire tables would be empty. A sobering thought. But the Allies persevered. Nazis loss the war, thank GOD. The steady pressure of that bombing both day and night made a big difference. Their ability to produce the tools of war slipped adding to their desire to surrender!!!
@stefanschutz5166 Жыл бұрын
Thank you from Amsterdam. Well documented.
@MajorT0m Жыл бұрын
One of the best channels on youtube, don't change the formula!
@Mr_Colbasaur5 ай бұрын
I appreciate the content and commend you on your diligence in doing your homework. I can imagine this becoming a much higher viewed channel of this type of content if (as politely as I can say in wishing you success) you take just a bit more time or training in "voice inflection" or "intonation" to grow your narration skills. Good luck. Will continue to enjoy the depth of info you have shared but also friendly offering that point to consider as you develop future content. Cheers.
@modeyman101 Жыл бұрын
Thanks for the great videos!
@rg3412 Жыл бұрын
I’m blown away by the quality info-packed videos you put out! Fantastic!
@RexusOutfitters5 ай бұрын
Interesting and well-sourced with actual documents. Thanks!
@Turloghan Жыл бұрын
Thank You for very informative and entertaining channel about WW2 aviation. Its funny that I have the same conclusions about using tracers belts in War Thunder game. Especially about using them with targeting sights. When i use a M16, M42, M19 AAA halftracks i`ve changed default targeting sight to a modded one, and many times its defitely better to aim thru sight, than by external view of the vehicle. When opponent plane is very close to you tracers are more usable, but you must use them exactly like instruction in this movie shows. On the next vehicles level I will try to play without tracers.
@justsoicanfingcomment5814 Жыл бұрын
You learn real quick to put all your tracers at the beginning of the belt so when you start the engagement you can light up the area where the enemy is and then switch over to not lighting yourself up for the rest of the fight.
@raywhitehead7304 ай бұрын
Started a significant fire using tracers. Here is how it happened. In about 1982 A two helicopter detachment, Navy Attack Squadron HAL-5 was detailed to work with Navy SEALs in a training scenario near Travis Air Force Base, California. Specifically, on Grizzly Island which was not inhabited, low laying and tall grass and small brush covered. There is no bridge to the island. It is about 7 miles west of the main Travis AFB runway. During the exercise live round tracers were used. And it caused the whole island to catch fire. This caused so much smoke it closed down the runway at Travis. I was there.
@nomadpi1 Жыл бұрын
Thank you. Pertinent explanation confirms my Father's tales as a crew chief on a B24 (Smooth Sue) in the PTO. I was Army, RVN, and wondered why the M-60 guns ate tracers like M&Ms (told everyone, RPG carriers, where the gun was). Thank you HST. My father came home from WWII.
@tanewoodley98065 ай бұрын
This made no sense until you explained it and then it made perfect sense, thank you 🙂
@redtobertshateshandles Жыл бұрын
Decades ago I fired a few shots from South American Mauser 98 in 30-06. It was interesting watching the tracer rounds flying and ricochet off a rock face 500 yards away in the dusk light. Great fun.
@donaldwood7968 Жыл бұрын
watching half tracks with quad 50s shoot up a hillside in the mid 50s was mostly interesting because the tracers filled the air and I knew there were many more I could not see. I wonder if there are different mixes for ground troops.
@CL-vz6ch Жыл бұрын
Mix up whatever you want.
@Imnotyourdoormat Жыл бұрын
Also as it burns and flies, an Incendiary Round is losing large amounts of mass both by gaseous vapor and friction against the atmosphere, drastically affecting its velocity and trajectory... that's why they often curve in flight.
@snakeplissken2148 Жыл бұрын
i always learn something from your vids. this time for exampe the source for the traver. i shot alot 7,62x39 tracer, but there was the tip of the projectile covered with some stuff that ignited by the airfriction.
@johnh4957 Жыл бұрын
wow, nice to have actual archival material, 1 criticism is you said 35 Grams instead of 35 grains(or I heard wrong) in material used for incendiary rounds(35 grain =2.3 Grams)
@user-xl9kl8hz7o Жыл бұрын
I'm 55.5 years old. I've always been fascinated with Aircraft for as long as I can ever remember. My late Father was in RAF Navigator Training in Portage La Prairie, Canada when VE day was announced. For that I'm truly grateful 🙏. I often wonder what it must have been/was, truly like being on the very receiving end of these truly horrific munitions. One can only imagine and even then it'll never ever even come close. And watching these Fighters tearing in, their gun blaze blinking and the utter horror around, just literally blows my mind. A head on attack, from an HE111's perspective just leaves me cold. Ultimately, I'm so glad it ended. It's a shame we still have never learned. I don't think as a species that we ever truly will. 😢
@jar303 Жыл бұрын
The Germans used day and night tracers in their cannon rounds. They were marked in different colours on the round. You wouldn't want to lose your night vision with a day tracer.
@alfretwell428 Жыл бұрын
Can I just say the RAF crews mostly flying at night, tracers would alert enemy to the fact they were under fire and destroy their night vision. The famous fighter pilot George Beurling would not load any tracers as missing with his first burst would alert his victim to his potential danger.
@richardjames1812 Жыл бұрын
I really enjoy your channel, lots of work clearly goes into it.
@WWIIUSBombers Жыл бұрын
Thanks for the channel donation, it is much appreciated.
@mdesm2005 Жыл бұрын
Seems counterintuitive. Could you expand on the nature of the optical illusion?
@watchthe13695 ай бұрын
It showed the AA guns where the airplanes were in addition to the fighters. It also caught the attention of fighters from MILES away in the right conditions.
@johnranlett9134 Жыл бұрын
Very interesting and enjoyable to watch. I liked the graphs and graphics. Well narrated. Thank you.
@bucksfer7039 Жыл бұрын
I've been meaning to ask you to do a video on "War Wary" aircraft. Such as, when did a Group/Wing Commander decide an airframe is done. I hope I presented the thought correctly.
@ret7army Жыл бұрын
War weary but yeah good question
@TechToWatch9 ай бұрын
Sitting crunched up in an enclosed area with oxygen gas, hydraulic fluid under pressure while someone fires canon and machine guns at you. Definitely a character building experience.
@allegrofantasy Жыл бұрын
That was a surprise! Thank you
@robertheinkel62255 ай бұрын
During my career in the AF, we had to occasionally re-qualify on the M-16. On year we were given nothing but tracers. It was weird, watching your round go toward the target.
@magiccarpetmadeofsteel4564 Жыл бұрын
Huh. Now I’m interested in _why_ tracers gave that false impression/optical illusion.
@kimjanek646 Жыл бұрын
Basically it’s because at some range, you can’t tell anymore, if the bullet overshot or undershot the plane. All you see is the bullet ark up and down in front or behind the plane without any indication how close the bullets are to the plane. On the ground you are more likely to see, whether the tracer hit the target or hit the ground in front or behind it.
@glorybound75995 ай бұрын
The 4 to 1 mix is how I fired the M2 50 cal. From the M113A1 in the mid 1970’s in West Germany 🇩🇪 during my enlisted years in the U.S. Army.
@hahaha9076 Жыл бұрын
Very interesting. It helps to imagine being in the midst of war at the time.
@MakerBoyOldBoy5 ай бұрын
German Stuka pilots complained that Russian anti-aircraft gunners stopped using tracer rounds. The Stuka pilots were no longer able to dive and follow the tracer trails to bomb the guns shooting at them.
@peterbuckley38775 ай бұрын
On one side the tracer allows you to see you fall of shot but the drawback is it immediately gives away your position, you are effectively lighting yourself up as a target.
@feralinc.86934 ай бұрын
Before watching the video my assumption: to avoid both onboard fires as well as not giving away their location during late night bombing runs.
@bhoward9378 Жыл бұрын
I found your channel last night. Your videos are thoroughly researched and very informative. Subscribed.
@dalesims1626 Жыл бұрын
My dad was a lead scout in the infantry, he talked about being able to read a newspaper with the light from tracer rounds. How much light was emitted per round?
@rherman9085 Жыл бұрын
Nice video. You need to isolate your mic. Your movements are picked up by the mic because you might the mic set on the desk (IDK). TRy mounting it elsewhere so it doesn't pick up your ambient noise.
@WWIIUSBombers Жыл бұрын
Understood, new mic came in today. I will try it out on next video.
@silverload3622 Жыл бұрын
You could always tell who the Veterans were when they have the yellow tip with optinal fuse to light when needed
@imadrifter Жыл бұрын
Very Interesting & informative upload, my dude 👍 Thank you very much
@flamencoMensch Жыл бұрын
Wow, who knew!? 🤓 Another excellent presentation. Thankee kindly! 🤠
@streamofconsciousness5826 Жыл бұрын
The tracers illusion: It's a ways away but a Tracer is still a welding torch like light, enough of those and your eye goes into self defense mode and does not look right where the tracers are. Plus they are igniting 150 yards away, that latency would throw you off for sure in a moving airplane shooting at a moving target. When coming back at Dusk and getting jumped over France of Belgum they would be a real nuisance. Winter Days are very short up there, I'm sure a lot of Daylight missions ended at night. @patsmith3894 9 minutes ago points out the navy was still using them: Why the Navy kept using them who knows, but you can see by footage they were not using their gun sights. They were laying a umbrella of flack. And maybe having the contrast of the dark water right there helps compared to being in a all sky blue and white environment but for maybe some green below. kind of macabre and probably not right, but the Air Force may have done it because there was so much friendly fire in the formations they did not want aircrews to feel guilty by seeing their tracers going into a friendly. The Naval tracers would go out before the shells fell back down into the Fleet.
@kimjanek646 Жыл бұрын
In German WW2 manuals, AP-T rounds are often stated to be used for shooting at aircraft, even thought it’d kinda pointless in leading the target. Maybe they considered it more of a psychological weapon against pilots being attacked from the ground.
@dheujsnrhfydhehehshshhdggsd Жыл бұрын
Grains are not grams. One of those obscure nomenclature distinctions. Fantastic minutia content, thank you for this series.
@garycornelisse9228 Жыл бұрын
Very well done. Very informative.
@Munrubenmuz6 ай бұрын
Fantastic. Just found this page and I'm an immediate subscriber. I'm loving the original documents. Can I ask where they are on online and are they available to anyone to view? Again, thank you.
@petesheppard1709 Жыл бұрын
Enlightenment has ensued...Thanks! 😎
@talgov01 Жыл бұрын
Fascinating stuff. Thanks! I just subscribed!
@Irish3814 ай бұрын
Tracer rounds work both ways. They illuminate the target area and the shooter position.
@kiwisteve6598 Жыл бұрын
Another way of warning a pilot they were low on ammo was different length belts. The P51D had more ammo for the inboard gun in each wing, so once the outer pair on each wing ran out of ammo the pilot would know he was down to 2 guns and “get me home money” ammo.
@keithdubose2150 Жыл бұрын
Did fighters also change over and eliminate tracer rounds ? Very much enjoy your video and this content is why I subscribed
@jansvoboda4293 Жыл бұрын
I remember a book by American fighter ace (I believe it was Gabresky) quoting using just API in which he also concluded that if he misses he does not want to warn the enemy of the fact he is shooting at him. If he hits, the API shows it well on the target.
@ret7army Жыл бұрын
Some such as the 56th FG put them at the end of the mg ammo belt to indicate they would be about empty
@richardhoare99635 ай бұрын
In the Pacific theatre the crew of a B17, Old 666, used .50 cal belts that were made up of alternating AP and tracer rounds. Their rationale was it would have an adverse effect on attacking aircraft. The Fat Electrician has a good video about it.
@johngardner1290 Жыл бұрын
Enjoyed that tid-bit of history. Thanks.
@alanmclean66905 ай бұрын
Very knowledgeable video
@paulbork7647 Жыл бұрын
Well done overall. A 1940 training manual would probably be more indicative of what happened during the war. Interesting the Mosquito firing tracer rounds, the P-38 and ground pictures don’t seem to have any distance from the barrel to the light. At 4:40 the voice says grams, when grains are correct and in the picture.
@kqc70116 ай бұрын
One major thing is that the flight path of the bullets and point of impact are different, for a tracer, roughly 630 Gr and decreasing when fired vs roughly 647 Gr for api that stays the same weight throughout its flight.
@gkprivate433 Жыл бұрын
Also the last few rounds in a belt were often special rounds that left a white or a pair of white trails. The idea was this would indicate to the gunner that he was near the end of his round. while nice to know, it also told the enemy that you were just about out of ammunition!
@remittanceman4685 Жыл бұрын
Right off the bat I can think of two reasons. First - tracers work both ways. Second - the USAAF operated primarily as a daytime force, tracers were less necessary to aim. Crews probably preferred to load up with ball and incendiary rounds instead. Now let's see what the video says.
@comfortablynumb9342 Жыл бұрын
I've heard of Special Forces and SEAL type operators putting tracers in the last few rounds in a magazine to tell them they're almost out of bullets. Makes sense.
@gary_stavropoulos Жыл бұрын
This makes me wonder how many planes were shot down that might not have been if they were not using tracers.