Why You Don't Want "Realistic" Logistics In A Wargame

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Why You Don't Want "Realistic" Logistics In A Wargame

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Dragoon Commander

Күн бұрын

Пікірлер: 53

@TheD3trax 2 жыл бұрын

I would like to see more "wargaming sim" genre with more focus on logistics. Even it makes everything over complicated, but fueling fronts, managing whole logistics dimension of war is entertaining by itself

@antwarior Жыл бұрын

same here, i wish combat mission games would adopt logistics and become more like call to arms conquest mode with troop management systems

@PredatorPeyami 9 ай бұрын

@@antwarior nah

@antwarior 9 ай бұрын

@@PredatorPeyami yeehhh, im already b ored of the game and does not have nothing else to offer uther than the same mission that has already been complete, needs more substance, resources to fight over, airbases to capture, people to save on a grand scale

@PredatorPeyami 9 ай бұрын

@@antwarior people prefer operational or strategical level wargames for these things, it's out of scope of the combat mission(tactical) and if you try to implement those things to combat mission you will have circus freak (or call to arms) in your hand.

@antwarior 9 ай бұрын

@@PredatorPeyami i rather have those things emplemented along with the current content for those of us that needs more of a realistic free feeling experience instead of being lead down the path the devs wanted to go down, i want to manage my own troops, why would i want the computer to just hand me troops? wheres the fun in that? i want to fight viciously over map resources becuase wheres the fun in just making a vs map without a reason to go to war with the other side besides just wanting to smash some tanks together

@dennissvitak148 Жыл бұрын

In the barracks, me and four friends played eight full turns of Campaign for North Africa. It wasn't fun, and we said eff this, and went back to Advanced Squad Leader, and Panzer Leader/Blitz. Fully 45 years ago.

@hdavies0 2 жыл бұрын

Eye opening, surprisingly interesting subject, and now a regular wargame will seem artificial without logistics. Thanks so much, this was a great video. Hollandspiele and White Dog, there's some great ideas for a game here!

@armchairdragoons 2 жыл бұрын

Thanks for the kudos :) Keep in mind that this is in no way a fully robust model of logistics in a war, but just one very simple facet of it that shows how little we deal with it in our wargames.

@manuelkong10 2 жыл бұрын

it's So gratifying to see the map with all these things you've added....it begins to look, Realistic

@RiccardoMasiniWLOG 3 жыл бұрын

Great video about the invisible levels in wargaming. Thanks for making this presentation and putting it online.

@manuelkong10 2 жыл бұрын

for a TACTICAL game I can see this being true....but if you're running a corps in N Afrika I think it NEEDS more realistic logistics than just "tracing supply off the edge of the board" Logistics has usually been Badly ignored by people who make games....its not "sexy" or something because it's not combat Likewise road capacity is almost always ignored

@armchairdragoons Жыл бұрын

the challenge comes in deciding what you mean by "logistics" in a wargame, as there's much more than just consumption rates longer breakdown here www.armchairdragoons.com/articles/columns/logwar/

@MrProsat 5 ай бұрын

@@armchairdragoons Without logistics in an operational game - say, running a corps in N. Africa - you completely miss what Rommel had to face. Not just consumption rates but also setting the pace or tempo of an offensive. Otherwise, you have units constantly attacking. And units simply wear out without replacements.

@armchairdragoons 3 ай бұрын

@@MrProsat There's a difference between "no logistics" and "realistic logistics" and the levels of abstraction in between. To put a comparable level of operational logistics play into a game that matched the level of "kinetic" play in a game at that scale would be an entirely separate, parallel game. There need to be some reasonable log-driven constraints put on the actions available to the player, certainly. But the details of planning and executing those log missions would bog down almost any 2p game, and many 4-6p games. (Keep in mind that we've got a pair of folks on our staff that have done this for real, too)

@MrProsat 3 ай бұрын

@@armchairdragoons I agree with you, no one wants to play "staff officer" in these games. No logistics is an issue for me. So it is interesting for me to see how different games tackle the problem. Some are done very well and straightforward, like the 194x games (Normandy, Ardennes, Holland, North Africa, Stalingrad) where you have to accumulate supply points to attack or use artillery. But it is not onerous.

@anab0lic 2 ай бұрын

@@MrProsat Are you familiar with the logistic mechanics of Multiman publishing's OCS series?

@mekosmowski 5 ай бұрын

You're talking about tabletop games, but there's a computer game Shadow Empire, that I think provides a decent abstraction of logistics. It's a hybrid wargame / empire builder, so it's more operational with grand strategic elements. The logistics side is mostly about the capacity to move stuff (replacements, food, fuel, water, ammunition and energy) from production sites, to central storage, to drop-offs along the logistics network (roads, rail) where combat unit logistical teams take over. The combat unit logistics are pretty much fully abstracted, except that combat unit zones of control are able to inderdict supply ability. Otherwise, it's pretty much that different unit movement types receive a lowered percentage of requested supplies if they're too far from a civilian logistical network (depending on terrain type). No map presence other than building the hubs to provide supply capacity.

@armchairdragoons 4 ай бұрын

it's more complicated than just moving stuff, as we discuss here www.armchairdragoons.com/articles/columns/logwar/ and yes, a computer does give you the ability to factor in a greater number of variables, but the underlying planning & execution in parallel with the kinetic ops are almost an entirely separate game

@lastburning 4 ай бұрын

Logistics can be abstracted. There's always a level of abstraction in games. It doesn't make them less realistic.

@armchairdragoons 3 ай бұрын

abstraction is the exact opposite of realism! You are correct in that the **constraints & effects** can be realistic even if the model is abstracted.

@Kallistosprom 2 жыл бұрын

Be interesting to read on the development of logistics throughout history, especially what was changed because of a war like WW2.

@petrinieminen2771 3 жыл бұрын

Thanks DC, I am part of a team working on a similar scale computer game to LnL's marvellous WaW'85 series. Some food for thought for sure!

@armchairdragoons 2 жыл бұрын

FWIW, the Flashpoint Campaigns computer games are very much a W@W85 counterpart

@walleras Жыл бұрын

Tf yes I do. I want to lose a battle because I forgot a zero in my math for how many cans of beans I carried. I want to have to follow the wagon equation LET ME MICROMANAGE THE AVERAGE OSLODIERS PACKS!~

@futuregenerationz 5 ай бұрын

This is the difference between HOI4 and Darkest Hour. I WANT realistic logistics in a wargame. I just don't want to have to manage them, or pick some AI to manage them.

@armchairdragoons 4 ай бұрын

logistics as a limiting factor to rein in how hog-wild the player goes with their operations isn't inherently bad but can vary in how it's applied

@armchairdragoons 3 жыл бұрын

Thanks to those of you that gave it a thumbs-up!

@edmundcowan9131 Ай бұрын

And it makes a difference if on offense or defense.

@lineofdeparture3584 4 ай бұрын

Title should have been: "Why you really want "realistic" logistics in wargames"

@edmundcowan9131 Ай бұрын

Usually the company tank puller is located in cbt trains with the cbt medics.

@ashley-r-pollard 2 жыл бұрын

I agree that campaigns is where wargame logistics make sense, and possibly could be an USP.

@RHampton 2 ай бұрын

Fantastic briefing. Thank you.

@davidconklin9552 3 жыл бұрын

But I am entertained by logistics! Put in on a spreadsheet for a computer!

@joelhart4027 2 жыл бұрын

Very interesting presentation

@edmundcowan9131 Ай бұрын

I was a his cdr. An S1 but you left out the Bn XO who has a role in logistics. As well as company Xo a supply sgt and nbc / armor etc Bn co and tk co. But very good brief accurate.

@armchairdragoons Ай бұрын

can't hit 'em all! but yes, the idea was just showing how much busier the map gets with "everything else" on it even if they don't play much of a role in the battle

@MrProsat 5 ай бұрын

Logistics more properly belong in operational level games. Say a game that scale goes several weeks, perhaps battalion or regiment level. Otherwise, it is too onerous and makes little sense worrying about this.

@armchairdragoons 4 ай бұрын

Not disagreeing, but they can be relevant below that. The key is that much of the logistics fare is almost a separate game between the battles that is rarely accounted for.

@VrilWaffen 7 ай бұрын

Everything about logistics gets me half-hard

@silverrockhound4701 Жыл бұрын

Avalon Hill 3rd Reich, That is the teeth cutter for wargames IMHO

@onri_ Жыл бұрын

Foxhole has logistics

@armchairdragoons Жыл бұрын

yes, but when you say "logistics," what exactly are you putting in the wargame? www.armchairdragoons.com/articles/columns/logwar/

@gryphonprovenzano3156 4 ай бұрын

But one exists though sea creek 5 so counterpoint?

@armchairdragoons 4 ай бұрын

"sea creek 5" ?

@gryphonprovenzano3156 4 ай бұрын

Naval warGame that takes hours to play that simulated realistic naval combat, including damage control ammo and logistics if there is something on the ship that they have it’s taken into account in this game. Look it up

@gryphonprovenzano3156 4 ай бұрын

I misspelled it it’s called SeeKrieg 5

@cwcsquared 5 ай бұрын

Need more artillery than that

@armchairdragoons 4 ай бұрын

A tank-heavy task force doesn't get their own artillery battalion subordinate to them. They might get priority of fire from the brigade DS arty bn, but their only organic fires are their mortar platoon. A cav squadron will have their own howitzer battery, but they'll also have 2-3x the frontage of a line battalion b/c it's a different mission.