I'm proud of you for not reinventing wheels on this project. Stick to researching which pre-existing inventions can prove to be helpful.

The fact that the flyball governor plays "tighter" music is a big benefit, but can we all appreciate how great it is that the speed cab be adjusted on the fly?!?! That's a really big deal! This means that he can do tempo changes in the middle of a song.

Just remember that you're using friction and foam together. Much like brake pads in a car, friction will wear the foam down over time and will need to be replaced at regular intervals

Before you fight the MM3, perhaps a good intermediate step would be a Marble drum machine? That way you can test everything as it's integrated together, and also have a cool machine to make some music with.

One of the tricks of the Flyball governor {or any active Governor) is if the flywheel is too big it has to work harder to "correct" the speed of the Flywheel. even the Gramophone/Victrola does not have a flywheel between the spring motor and the governor.

Ideally the test you need to do is one with variable load. e.g. switching between no marbles being played, to lots of marbles being played. This is the real struggle point for a machine like this. This is also where a flyball governor can be so much better. If the machine goes to fast (due to too low load), the friction can increase a lot to slow it down and clamp the tempo. If the machine goes to slow, the governor very quickly stops applying friction at all allowing the tempo to increase to where it needs to be. This very dramatic, almost step like response is what can make these governors so good. An air break governor could never do that anywhere near as good.

A break pad on a spring would probably also work. I think the foam is so much better because it allows for movement of the governor disk, while still breaking to different degrees. So when the speed is increased ever so slightly, it allows the governor to respond. Also it smooths out any wobbliness in the break disk. But your setup looks pretty sub-optimal when it comes to friction and stability. All the squeaky sounds are friction! So in the real machine it will probably be even better.

Fun Fact: Flyball governors are the origin of the term "going balls-out." When your machine is "balls-out," it's going at full speed.

"It uses marbles as a weight" Just in case it didn't already earn the title of *marble* machine with... everyting else

As a stationary steam engine operator, it brings me immense joy seeing mechanical principles like Centrifugal Governor regulation of speed still being used today. Delightful work🇵🇲🦆👍

My mouth literally fell open upon seeing the BPM results of the flyball governer with the foam. This shows how invested I am (and probably many others) into this project

"I should not try to reinvent the wheel." This-not the flyball governor-is your greatest breakthrough. Well done. I think things will go much more smoothly for you from here on. Much success to you!

Martin probably won't see this but I'll post it anyway. I think the flyball governor has an opportunity to be a beautiful centerpiece of the marble machine. I'm taking inspiration from the skyscraper Taipei 101 where the building is kept steady in the wind, earthquakes, etc. through the use of an enormous 18 foot diameter, 660 ton, steel sphere called a tuned mass damper. The tuned mass damper could have been hidden in the building but it has become a massive attraction. Obviously a flyball governor is at a very different scale, but even making it slightly oversized, it could be something that truly shows the machine at work from a distance. Another piece of inspiration is Andrew Bird's spinning Specimen Janus Horn Speakers. The spinning gramophone-looking horns really add to his stage presence and it has become a symbol for his live shows. Given that so much of the marble machine is going to be small parts moving small distances with the marbles, I think the flyball governor could be an opportunity to showcase the large movements. For an idea of what it could look like, there is a toy called a twirligig where the faster the toy spins, centripetal force causes the toy to change shape (usually it will be made up of ribbons but it could be anything). I'd love to see something like this.

Of note, the original Victrola didnt use foam to break the flywheel, it used felt pads. I would be interested to see if felt provides a more durable and consistent material while still allowing some give.

Despite how bummed I was when he ended MMX, these small steps towards a new Marble Machine are getting me really hyped for what might come a couple years down the line.

There's a lot of tuning you can do with the fly-ball governor. Some positions in its throw are going to work better than others, just because of the mechanical linkages. Different flywheel weights, different spring pressures, etc can move that position around. Also be careful with wear and heat. Over a long concert, your brake material might wear or heat up, causing changes in tempo.

Use an eddy current brake with a magnet. 0 noise, 0 wear, and a more smooth brake. Though it might be harder to balance the exact bpm desired.

Fun fact, flyball governors are where the term “balls out” comes from. I.E. “we’re going balls out on this one” Glad you got your governor set right Martin, this series has been seriously fun

The obsession with "tighter" music is off the scale! Every time I think the quest is complete another "tighter music" video is uploaded!!!!

So cool, flyball governors are one of my favorite inventions. I love spotting them on old machines like tractors and trains.

In 1672, Pitstone Post Mill here in the UK was built, roughly. It uses a fly ball governor to regulate speed. If it can regulate the oldest surviving windmill in the UK then it is probably good enough for your needs. If you are ever in London visit the Science Museum. You will see tons of these governors and various designs of adjustment and brakes on the steam engine floor.

I think you should have the axis vertical so that the weights do not have uneven forces caused by the gravity during a single rotation of the axle. And as a bonus, you can get rid of springs if you use gravity to pull the disc away from the brake.

Martin you started as a song maker got to be a hobby crafter then mastered the cnc and cad making super cool but super impractical designs and now your chanel is turning into a engeniering, sience, music and mathmatics chanel that i my self have learned so much from. Thank you for the adventure Martin And lets hope that you beat the MM3 GOO WINTERGATAN🎉🎉

I have been watching you build and learn this whole machine from the beginning, and watched you scrap it twice. What a freaking rollercoaster. I have been emotionally invested since you kind of saved me while feeling imprisoned during Covid. Learning from the mechanical masterminds of the past and getting to the point where you truly understand their work and also how to implement it in your design, I’m almost tearful. You’re on the brink of creating something that will not only play “tight music,” but will be studied by generations as an example of what the marriage of modern technology and the past can achieve. It’s like learning from a grand master tradesman through the eyes of a journeyman. I can only think that this kind of dedication/obsession is what lead to the breakthroughs of things like the fly wheel. I was so skeptical about your obsession with “tight music” for a very long time, until I realized that you pretty much don’t want to make a marble machine until it can contend with the machines of the past. And with this, I finally get it. This is exactly what you wanted and needed to be able to proceed. You want to be a grand master. And that’s why I believe you’ll literally never abandon this project. Because while you have no master to teach you, you have the past, and you really do find joy in the creating of something truly historical. Somewhere in you, you know how monumental this is, and how important it is to all of us who have been following your journey, but more importantly, you’re collecting data on how to better control randomness, and man, I really do believe that when this machine is finished, on whatever version, you’ll have contributed SO MUCH DATA to scientists and researchers all over the world. Some of the machines you reference are literally their creators’ life works. You’re on that path to greatness. Never stop. Never give up. You’re on the path to doing something truly momentous.

i love old mechanic. it's so simple but genius!

So glad you found this solution, I've heard of it but your demonstration was very good ^^ May I suggest something going forward with your project : safety precautions. With 3D printed parts spinning this fast, a little breaking point could make a weight go flying in any direction. I would say safety goggles at least but a direct hit could break a bone. Maybe at least don't stand or cross the plane of rotation as it would be the most likely area to be hit. Or enclose it in a sturdy box ^^ Especially with time and usage, I fear the 3D printed parts could deteriorate with this much strain. Still a great video, keep up the good work, we believe :)

It's never about reinventing the wheel, continual improvement is almost always the path forward. This is a beautiful example

T i g h t m u s i c

Oh My, I love that you're having so much focus on the systems that will make the tightness of your machines better, sesne that's your main focus!

You mentioned something at 7:22 about how it seemed to find the tempo faster? I feel like that's something important to keep in mind to mitigate downtime between songs, or maybe maintaining tightness while changing tempo within a song? Being able to get up to speed faster is definitely a huge bonus.

The first issue that comes to my mind is durability. That is not meant to be a permanent piece the break disc. And it would be the first one piece that will require to be changed every now and then in the entire machine, the disc or the foam.

Very happy to see you checking on the flyball governor. Let me also point out one nice part here, on the final machine you can save a lot of time and effort on the break by using existing parts. After all, break disks and pads from cars are made for exactly that purpose, quite resilient, cheap and made to be exchanged for when they are worn down. So using that you would not only save on production time, money but also on maintenance.

I get that marbles on the floor and the mmx potentially (if very unlikely) exploding due to a stuck marble is a reason to start from scratch. What I do not get is this obsession with THIS level of tight music. Anyways, I‘m very glad martin is satisfied and the dream lives on!

I applaud your ability to run that test rig with all that squeaking and not go crazy...

Still love watching these videos. Amazing to see the trial and errors, wins and loses, all adding up to victory!!

Something to keep in mind, the Friction itself isnt needed and will just wear out the part. You don't need any friction at all. You just need to prevent the brake from moving to the left. I'd investigate using oil or rollers to minimize friction.

Really cool the marble music in vinyl ❤

*@Wintergatan* 2:34 You can put that clamp (or equivalent on finished product) on a screw (parallel to the governors rotation shaft), in that way you can turn a crank/knob/etc. to turn that screw, which controls the position of the clamp & that causes you to control the speed of the music on the fly, however you like :D

It's a special kind of joy seeing you make memes to show how excited you are. Of course you're THE person behind the MM, but it get's to feel like a journey for all of us and we can share in your excitement. Really good vibes.

About time. Only been screaming about this ever since you started talking about regulating motion.

I am so happy to be here for this project from the start. I was just a teenager when i started seeing your first marble machine on the internet and found it amazing. Learing now about the problems you faced, the dissatisafction you felt and all the various solutions you came up with that stil prove to be insufficient is very eye opening and inspiring honestly. I really, really, really hope this projet works out and my fascination with my fascination will possibly culminate in me seeing you perform live somewhere with the machine you work so hard on.

Can you make the stop block for the govenour adjustable (maybe in small intervals) then you can easily change the prefered bpm for each song quickly. Or even adjust within the song like in the original version when you cranked it by hand. Great progress ❤

I was wondering why the squishy foam was better, but then I realized that its job is to break and not to prevent the disc from moving further left.

"Captain Picard, they're closing in on us!" "Keep calm, set Hygens-drive to 6.8, recalibrate flywheel-governor and adjust marble dividers! Make it so!"

This is great for multiple reasons. Im mostly happy that this gives you a good way to adjust speed on-the-fly, although that would still be easier with a smaller flywheel. I'm really hoping you will do a test with a more dynamic load though. Imagine playing a big chord with multiple instruments, would that be able to slow down the music noticeably for the next few beats? Also if the governor works well, I think you should investigate how tight the input side should be. Smaller flywheel might be nice for faster tempo changes. Or maybe you can test being a bit less careful with the manual power your adding to the hyugen drive. Or maybe a spiral spring could work again, with the governor taking care of the non-constant force.

I think the reason why the foam brake pad is so much better is due to it dampening the subtle movements and wobble of the brake disk while still keeping the force constant. I also think that having a foam brake pad is better than a solid one in general because it will have much less wear on the mechanism, meaning that the braking system will last longer without replacement parts. And considering this is a test rig, I think that in the machine it will smooth out the already subtle variation with its increased weight. Congratulations on not trying to reinvent the wheel, can't wait for the next video!

Been watching for about maybe 2 years, I still cannot believe the progress you've made.

often using the old methods demonstrate why they endured. this governor is something used in machines before used in the phonograph, so it was understood why this fixes this problem. bravo sir!🎉

I love these videos going into specific details one at a time with prototyping and everything!

For the first night of your (first!) World Tour, please bring on stage all those people who have contributed most significantly to this project so they can have the recognition they deserve, hear the cheering, feel the love. (After that, perhaps life-size cutouts will have to do.) Maybe with a special bow for the Holy Grail Divider.

I'm jealous of your sense of purpose and the growth it necessitates. I see your work as aspirational. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

The result of having very perfectionist is that your project is never ending. Imagine building the marble machine x for how many months and years and it did not finished, and building a new one again.

Consider using %Relative Standard Deviation (%RSD) in situations where the tempo is different between these types of experiments. This will make the results better comparable, as higher BPM experiments will always have a higher SD, and lower tempo = lower SD - even if the true variability of the system is exactly the same. Using RSD will eliminate this issue as it will standardise the results. %RSD=SD*100/Average Still great results though!

I wonder if the massive flywheel is necessary or if it can be less heavy with a flywheel governor 🤔

It's important to manage expectations, but I'm starting to believe in you again, Marten.

Starting from scratch can lead to new better approaches, but there's so much to be achieved here that it is wise to pick your battles and move on to focus on other areas when there's more to be done and you already got a good enough solution and isn't progressing much on the current focus.

Love that old piano version of the original MM song :)

I love that Martin is beginning to feel more and more optimistic with each minor step. And his enthusiasm carries us along - we may YET see the Marble machine in concert!

Despite it definitely being a better idea to use pre-existing solutions. I really appreciate you still testing / trying others so that we plebs can understand WHY these solutions have been around 100 years, and WHY they're better than a more aesthetic choice. Part of the fun of the MMX build was going through these processes that people have solved before and coming to the same conclusions through experimentation, yes, it may be a waste of time in terms of achieving a working machine, but it's always a really fun process to watch you go through. :) Great work Marti.

Excellent! So glad to see what looks like a solid solution to the speed governor issue. And lovely that it goes back to how this issue was solved on another kind of device for playing music over 100 years ago.

Should give a try with felt pads! The foam works great but I feel like friction will wind up ablating it over time. over long periods of time (Like a world tour :3 ) this could gradually change the BPM the governor settles at per position of the brake. Felt won't have that problem.

I’d like to see how this handles a variable load. Like, just grab the output shaft a bit and see what happens. Sometimes you’ll be lifting 10 marbles, sometimes 40.

The Ball Governor that record players used was an idea borrowed from machine shop Steam Engines. They needed the belt driven tool speeds to remain constant. Only thing that changed a tools RPM was running them either through a gear box or putting the belt on a different sized pulley. "Balls to the wall." was born in that era too.

These governors are where the phrase “balls to wall” comes from. They where on steam locomotives and when you where running at “full steam” the balls of the governor would be spinning as far out as they could go, almost touching the container they where in hence “balls to the wall”

Fantastic! Don't forget to add a clock-out pulse from the new machine since your machine will literally be the clock.

I wonder if there might be improvements with a range of materials inducing friction on the brake wheel. It would make sense that the higher the friction coefficient the greater the speed of the feedback loop, but as you have said everything must be tested. Maybe if you can find an old car tire it might work even better than the foam did in this experiment.

Very impressive for a machine that is essentially cobbled together plywood and 3d prints! Imagine the precision with steel and machining

What an excellent innovation! My Dad always said, "It's not research and development. It's search and RE-development."

Your flywheel is going to be VERY heavy, so you would need a huge flywheel governor to apply enough friction to the brake to keep tempo. A better solution would be to have a brake at the edge of the flywheel itself that is activated by the flywheel governor. You could then amplify the braking force using leverage such that a large movement in the governor imparts a small but more powerful movement to the brake. You could even use an automotive brake caliper and master cylinder if hydraulics are allowed (still mechanical).

using the marbles as weights for a part in the marble machine is really ironic

Yes. Finally, I have waited for this episode. Now i finally understand those contraptions on staem boats. Thanks 👍

This channel is like an emotional roller coaster ride. Been watching it for years. Congrats Wintergarten on the new methodology.

I noticed that the wood for the flywheel was bouncing. To make sure your tests are not impacted by this you should probably make it a little stronger.

im a little confused why you didnt test the same bpm for every test. Still a great video, but would like to see consistent variables across all tests

The flyball governor was used in industrial applications and were regulated with gravity intead of friction. The weights were mounted on a vertical shaft and the lever arms were ajustable in lenght to get the desired rpm

Sometimes engineering is about finding what works best that someone else made and using that in your design. So proud of you growing from your bearing housing fiasco. You really are becoming a better engineer.

it's nice that you have moved from, "If this doesn't play tight music then the marble machine project is over" to now asking, "can this machine play tighter music" cause we know between the human element and the mechanical elements we have seen the music can be tight. Now you ask how tight can we get it, like asking what is the absolute limit of tight music play via this machine can it play tight music all the way from 1bpm to 300 and all the way in between, it's so cool to watch as you go from discouraged to inspired! I hope this message was positive and that you stay motivated to continue, I don't have means to contribute but I do love that a community of very knowledgeable people are all helping to make this dream come true. be really cool to see you live!

I'm happy for you! I used to have a similar problem, except that I was more hardheaded. I thought that I would do everything by myself, and it just made everything I did very difficult. I learned that it's best to be humble about the place you are in, and use help when you can get it! Don't try to do everything by yourself. It's not a good way to go about things, and it will keep you from getting things done in the end.

Martin, I'm absolutely stoked and inspired that you're going through with this and the attention to detail, I've been following since the build up to the X. I think you might nail it with this iteration of the machine, and I'm really glad you didn't give up!

i literally raised up my hands like martin on the end when saw the foam graph!! i feel sooooo happy about those results!!!

watching the evolution has been inspiring, and continues to inspire.

It works so much better than an air governor because the friction is increasing much more directly and proportionally. Using existing and proven tech to solve problems is a tried and true process.

This was an amazing gramophone lesson, glad you haven’t given up on the marble machines!!! Take as long as you need for this masterpiece!

Congratulations, Martin! Researching existing solutions really paid off today.

It is absolutely astounding that this tech was created so long ago when they never had the technologies of today to help them. No computers, 3d printed prototyping, internet to look things up or ask the entire world for help. They had none of it.. and yet here we are with this amazing feat of engineering.

Makes sense that the foam made a huge difference. As the brake disk presses against the foam, the foam squishes and increases the surface area in contact with the brake disk. When the brake disk backs off, the foam returns to its original shape.

I think it might be interesting for you to look into the Thorens TD 124 record player. It uses a dipole motor turning at twice the rate of the Hz coming from your AC outlet. This motor uses a belt to spin an aluminum disk. The belt is flexible and the stretch of the belt makes the peaks and valleys of the wave smaller. There is an aluminum wheel that is connected to the belt, which has an eddy current brake on it, which makes the speed even smoother. Finally there is an idler wheel connected to the aluminum disk, which turns a big and heavy platter. The combination of these technologies managed to turn a wavy 50 Hz AC power source into an extremely smooth running turntable. Even though the turntable is from the 1960’s, it’s still one of the best ever made. This technology might help you get rid of the waves in your tight pattern.

God this channel is back and so much better than ever.

This must have been a real life homer simpson doh moment. Sometimes the best most obvious solutions are the hardest to find. Congrats on making such a huge leap forward with the project.

In steam engines, ball governors were used since ever. The rotation axis was put upright, so gravity was the counterforce to the centrifugal force. The term "balls up" for getting out of control refers to the ball governor spinning so fast that the balls reach their maximum height.

Okay, this was a genuinely lovely mix of old and new

Im so excited for what this success means for the future of this project

The governor needs an automotive brake rotor at full scale. Use an off the shelf set of ceramic brake pads and you have a very solid, reliable and easy to maintenance system. Whatever bracket holds the brake pads can be on a screw to adjust it's distance for higher/lower bpm If it was coupled to the flywheel sufficiently it could also act as an emergency brake. Using a lever system to slam the rotor and moving pad back into a rigid pad.

when i doubt of my self, and all the efforts.... you came and isnpire me!!! THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!! Keep going, you are awesome.

They used to use slime on Governors on Old stationary diesel engines to make sure they did not over rev, when they ran at full speed. They also ran a cylinder around the flyball Governors to keep them from going too far out. When they would be all the way touching that cylinder that was called "balls to the wall" which is where the term for going full speed was said to be "balls to the wall".

When I saw your video about he air resistance device I had already wondered why you didn't use a governor! I am glad you discovered this very dependable piece of kit.

I just love the engineering of this series.. it's so inspiring

Glad you finally got here. I mentioned this in a comment a couple of years ago, I think. You could also couple it with a CVT to downshift instead of a break disk if you want to avoid some of the energy loss.

Lol just as I was typing "don't reinvent the wheel" you were saying it in the video XD . Good to see you making so much progress in the prototyping.

the governor basically works by ensuring that the energy extracted by the governor plus the machine is the same - slight extra friction from the machine results in a slowdown and less friction on the governor - the same total drag / tempo - you have to remember the amount of friction on the machine will change based on activity. the upside of the foam is the travel distance allows the balls to go out further, more inertia / energy sink - but the foam will wear, i wouldn't expect that to be long term stable as the foam wears down