he actually had me until <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="295">4:55</a> ;-; I thought bro was gonna call racehans or jan a cheater 💀

Why do Riolu jokes never get old? They age in slow motion

ngl i was SUPER freaking scared that RaceHans was the "cheater" in question the first few minutes of this upload... 😭😭

PSA: It's not about 92BOB, guys.

After 3 years I still can not belive it that tortugo is Adam Kajumi

As someone who has no idea about any of this or who anyone is, i was trying to predict which of the players was a cheater, and then the third guy came onto the scene with the classic just-showed-up wr.

wow he moved back to Norway, that's crazy.

When you started out only talking about Racehans and Jan, I went into despair mode wondering which one was a cheater.

I'd run a TAS with the EXACT movements without that .01 snap right steer and see if it results in the same, or similar run. Would make a hell of a difference in determining how much that steering input actually affected the game. For all we know its a shitty controller (that, yes, can send false data to the computer, game, etc) and the dude has no way of proving how they did it and just, didnt respond because he knew he would get ass blasted because "oh surely because they can't provide definitive proof means they cheated". Just food for thought. ESPECIALLY if the only basis is "it felt weird" and they didnt use the same ending line, you literally said yourself that its entirely possible it was a "fight or flight" response after taking a bad entry line, could have absolutely been adrenaline from hitting a clean wall bang into a clean shortcut. Honestly, knowing whether or not every other input EXCEPT that minor right steer results in a WR run (assume they let go, and the "snap back" from the stick caused the controller to bug) is a HUGE determining factor and I'm honestly confused no one tried it.... Or they did, it DID result in a WR run and you just decided to not mention that particular fact. I'm not trying to defend the guy, keep in mind I do not care, but "it feels weird" doesnt exactly work in this case when you all are mentioning that it in fact passes the in game test AND your entire grounds for removing the run is 1 minor input that may or may not have actually affected the run. And your clickbaiting a quarter million people into thinking this person is a cheater off of a "feeling". If its cheated and it broke the in-game comp validation, fix the in-game validation, if its a minor, feasible controller glitch (phantom input) yall should AT LEAST do your due diligence in determining whether or not those inputs without the minor right steer give the same output. IIRC the TAS tools are locked down so would that person even have any way of saying "hey it was a controller phantom input, here is proof the run without that input results in a WR"

i think that weird grass line is probably just like, their own strategy. if someone was faking a wr they'd probably try to make it look more legitimate / blend in more by following strategies used by other top players, but having their own method to get through an area also just makes sense. that weird controller snap is definitely suspicious but unless it's what actually lets the shortcut be possible it could just be a lag spike or similar, i've had tmnf get pretty stuttery for me in the past

So one input anomaly and a racing line in the final sector that you don't like constitute solid evidence of cheating? The former doesn't seem robust enough to be considered cheating and the latter seems like a preference issue.

I dunno. To me, it looks like a player who's not quite as good at the game as the best of the best, but got lucky with bugs and such. Like the odd lines make sense if he's just worse. The odd input could be a controller glitch. In my mind, there's no way a slowed game speed or a tas makes that kind of input(It's too fast even for a slowed game speed, and there's nonway a tasser leaves that in. The run also didn't look tassed.) In my mind, the thing that makes more sense is that a player who's really good at the game, but not quite that good, started grinding the shortcut before he had the lines down completely, and just happened to get a run where everything lined up.

In other examples of being dodgy with inputs, which is what is being accused in this video, it’s not just one small blip but a pattern of behaviour over a number of runs and patterns throughout singular runs that leads to the conclusion that it’s more likely than not that the record was cheated. Using the information you provide on the accused history, let’s paint a picture. An old TMNF player, played it on release, submitted a few scores, but kinda fell away from the game for a long while, only to pick it up again within the last couple of years. They discover a potential shortcut that hasn’t been utilised in a WR record run on this map from other people posting about it, and decides to just sink some time into it to give it a try. They haven’t been religiously hunting the map and, while possibly aware of the optimal lines, hasn’t quite gotten them nailed down. Then one day, they hit a perfect shortcut and desperately try to cling on to the run, small mistake results in a sub optimal line going into that grass corner. We don’t know if that’s their normal line considering the lack of other replays uploaded, or maybe their trying to practice that part more to get it further in line with the optimal run, but whatever, the advantage gained in the shortcut is enough for them to cling on to the lead despite the mistake, and at the end they clutch and get WR. Realising they got WR, they upload it to the leaderboard via the official channels, and it gets verified by the official anticheat. From context clues you give, this individual is not active in the tmnf speedrunning community, not a discord member, not a member of your little clique. And because their not part of an unofficial community, their run gets scrutinised much harsher than anyone else’s simply because of “bad vibes” and “not being a known player”. Let me pause here, does this mean that for someone’s run to be accepted by the community, they must participate in stuff outside of the game itself? And why does the speedrunning community consider itself above the official anticheat? Doesn’t this situation by default mean every single run validated by this anticheat should be considered suspect as well since the community believes that the anticheat is not effective at catching out cheaters? Anyway. How was the runner contacted for comment? What means were employed to get in contact with this runner? You said the run came out of nowhere, so it’s safe to assume this person doesn’t have any known means of contact. Plus, this isn’t even delving into the material accusation itself. If I’m correct, the accusation is that the runner featured used illegal means to go from full left steering to partial right steering within .01 of a second, at that 1 specific wall bang. First question, do you know without any doubt he that the person was using or presenting themselves as solely using a stick controller, where such an input would be impossible? Is it possible action keys were being utilised in some way? Second, as others here have pointed out, can you be certain that there is no possibility that hardware issues such as stick drift cannot in any way be responsible for a momentary blip of weirdness in the logged inputs? Third, in the individuals previously uploaded runs, is there any evidence of similar discrepancies that may establish a history of potential behaviour that could reinforce the accusation being made here? And finally, do you think it is fair to require players to actively participate in a random online community in order for their runs to be accepted even after already being accepted by the official anticheat? Do you not think that this is a form of gatekeeping, where just because someone is unknown means that any records are automatically suspect? How can we trust that you and others in such a community aren’t using your influential positions to secure your own positions and keep away “outsiders”. This reeks of elitism and gatekeeping, and I cannot in good conscience support a KZfaqr or a community that participates in such behaviour, to the point of believing themselves to be above the official systems developed by the developers of the game to ensure fair play. I can believe that if any other “more noteable” player had gotten the exact same run, people would see that it had been authenticated and just write off the blip and sub optimal line as being an unlucky bug and a small error that didn’t ultimately matter, and then go and continue hunting the map incorporating the new strategy and combining it with a more optimal start and ending. But no they would rather spend time and effort nitpicking and demanding that someone engage in a community they may have 0 interest in or knowledge off just to justify themselves when they were already vindicated by the anticheat. It’s very possible that they got that run, decided they were done and just moved on, completely unknowing of the shitstorm that would ensue. And finally, what’s the motive here? They uploaded a run, didn’t make a stink on KZfaq, Reddit etc on beating the record, just uploaded the run and move on, no attention seeking, no attempting to gain personal glory or praise, just beat the record, probably thought “oh cool, may as well upload that” and then moved on. Motive, means, opportunity. The opportunity is a free space considering it’s the bloody internet, but no motive has been established and no concrete means have been proven by the accusers, just vauge postulations about maybes or what ifs, nothing that could be considered beyond all reasonable doubt.

<a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="788">13:08</a> “If you want to try this never-before-done shortcut” Me looking at my membrane keyboard that cost me $14: That's my chance to shine 😂😂😂😂😂

"he beat us good players so we got him taken off the leaderboard and he has not come back" yeah I also would not entertain a community that acts like that.

After the infamous 0/10 yasuo power spike, we have the 10 years pause Jules power spike

<a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="425">7:05</a> why does him not posting replays for 10 years mean he quit for 10 years? maybe he just wasn't posting replays... >_>

It's kind of sad to see that the trust in the community has been destroyed.

Man that is a weak arse evidence

I feel like the only reasonable piece of evidence is the inputs. The rest are literally just happenstance

Just gonna throw this in there..... I'm pretty sure you drove multiple insane runs w/ your custom input controller so lets take down those off the LB. Then every other WR on the LB that is anon because you can't believe it's true. If it passes the competitive patch and nadeo doesn't ban the person. Leave it up and have some crazy person hunt the skip.

<a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="110">1:50</a> „This is a full three thenth of a second fater than that“ might be the most Trackmania sentence i‘ve ever heard 😂💀

Why do we automatucally assume that that guys was not playing for 10 years? He might have been playing other Trackmania games rather then TMNF

I think it would help if you explained how he cheated cause saying the input is weird for this 0.01s window is hard to understand how they would change things for the course of the entire run if thats all still played manually. Are you saying its a TAS?

One irregular input can be just bugging controller. Especially if it's not hall effect controller.

The guilty until innocent approach, very bold

I disagree with the gun ho mentality within tm. If, given the replay and input data is publicly available AND the only thing you have is a gut feel after 1 year of breaking down the inputs then time to look closer at your values as a community.

Here is my theory that would explain the run. If Jules is using TAS tools capable of a save state it seems that the point where the inputs go crazy is where the save state is loaded. They probably were lightly steering upon loading the save state to try to get a better line without realizing it would show on the replay. It comes right after the wall bang which I assume is a point of high variance that probably takes a number of tries to get right, and based on other details it seems this is a somewhat inexperienced player that probably doesn't want to retry the run just to get a good wall bang when the shortcut is that difficult. So by loading after the wall bang the player only has to get a good landing for the shortcut and finish with enough space in front of the record. I can't really explain the weird line on the grass to dirt transition, but it is likely due to the players inexperience and some preference to the alternate line. I find this HIGHLY LIKELY to be cheated. The only explanation outside of a save state would be some alternate steering input. It seems Jules is using an analog input for most of the run but at the anomaly, they would have to switch from the normal analog input, to another input. For example going from using a controller joystick to pressing a keyboard key or controller button which would do a soft right input as seen. There are many other ways this could be done, but it seems odd to need a specific amount of right steering at that point in the run. I assume sticking to a normal analog input would not lose time compared to the inputs seen in the run so why would anyone need a specific soft right steering input like that. Seems really fishy and more complicated than the save state explanation. I don't know anything about Trackmania TAS tools but if anyone could let me know if they have save states that could be used in a run and pass validation, please let me know so I know that my theory might be possible. DISCLAIMER: I am not accusing Jules of cheating and acknowledge the possibility that the run is legitimate. This is merely discussion on how the run could have been performed and considers cheating methods as well as non-cheating methods that the run could be achieved. i am not a Trackmania run validation expert. These are only my opinions.

Thanks for the closure at the end of the video!

So actionkeys are not allowed? I don’t get it

Guilty until proven innocent... I guess a new approach...

Playing devils advocate for moment, that suspicious inputs seem like just letting go of the stick entirely and letting it bounce past the deadzone of the controller. I don't know if the reply would pick it up like that but its the only idea I could think of. I don't know if the run was legit or not but thats not for me to decide.

Someone beats a WR and the community bullies him back into retirement.

not uploading for 10 years means that he didnt play TM at all for 10 years? interesting.

I don’t really get the point about his set up at the end. It’s literally slower than the normal set up so why would that be evidence he’s cheating?

Seems a bit salty to me tbh. They got beat by someone that isn’t in their “clique” of known players so just assumed he cheated because he did something different to them. He passed the patch so either find out how he cheated or leave his record, not really fair just to out someone as a cheater with 0 proof

All of the people saying nice vid after 30 seconds 😂😂

My old controller did something very similar to this because of a stick drift issue. Not saying that’s what it is, I’m very curious as to why they never talked to anyone about the record tho

It was most certainly Riolu's 34th secondary account he had made just to spy on Wirtual, like the obsessed stalker he is, staying all day in his room, thinking only about Wirtual 24/7. Right?

The video is really high quality and I agree with the final verdict of removjng it from the leaderboards, but i feel cheated with this title. 1. You didn't expose him. It was a community effort. 2.We dont know if he actually cheated. His case is a bit like having a trial and losing by default, because you didn't go to it. But that doesn't mean you actually broke the law, it just means that you lost the case.

Anyone else remember the good old days when you needed actual evidence to get a run taken down due to alleged cheating? Now it seems any newcomer setting a record is automatically guilty until proven innocent. This dude got his run taken down over a different line and ONE suspicious input. One. His controller could have bugged and sent a weird input, among countless other rational explanations for that, but with the current paranoia and mob mentality running rampant in the community Jules was doomed from the start. This is just sad.

If the first left hold in the wallbang was made on a controller then if somebody taps right at the keyboard, the steering is cancelled and you are no longer steering thus it is not possible to flick into the right if the steering was started on a controller as we can see in the input display

bruh when he showed racehans my heart kinda dropped notgonna lie

If you see the control inputs, you see that there are some more anomaly’s so it could be his controller is bugged

Specifically talking about the weird inputs, I had my steer left and steer right binded to my bumpers for a time. I would switch off of joystick for slalom turns. I think if you were using both at the same time you could get that input

This video is entirely unconvincing.

Threatening players that their record will be deleted if they remain anonymous is morally awful. Being anonymous on the web is a right, and you should not get punished for that.

Just going to preface that I don't know who Jules is, nor have I played TMNF in about 5 years since I can't get it to run on my rig. Of course, cheating is not to be taken lightly when it comes to competitive gaming or speedrunning, I wholeheartedly agree. However, the title is kind of slanderous. Cheating wasn't proven, only suspected. It was deleted because the legitimacy was "questioned", but not substantiated with proof. Sure, the inputs looks shady, but there could be an explanation to it, especially if it happens once in the entire run. I feel the word "suspected" should be added in the title. Just my opinion though.

Thank god i thought it was racehans

You make me care about things I don't care about.

Easy: He just has an ""analog"" keyboard with 0%/100% ""curves"" configured on his keys.

Ever thought about analog keyboards where you can steer like a joystick....sounds familiar? :)

Smoking that Jules pack

im not defending anyone, but it is possible to play a game in 10 years, without uploading to a community.. Like i have played CS since 1.6, and never wanted to be competitive...

If you lean your joystick completely to the left and then let go, how long would it take for the stick to revert back to the center position? Is there a chance that he let go and the momentum of the joystick caused the right input to be present? Does he have a custom or even modified controller with stiffer springs causing these inputs to occur? Just thinking out loud here

Bet the run was blindfolded

Is it possible to use 2 input devices simultaneously or is it possible to change when paused. The way I can see this being done legitimately is if for some reason they switched to something like a keyboard specifically for the wall bang section.

I thought the burden of proof lied with the accuser.

In summary: "His run didn't look like mine, so he must be cheating."

these situations are exactly what the riolu story creates. Maybe it was a hardware fault that no one knows how it happened, including the submitter. Maybe it was TAS. you might not know but one thing is for sure. were it not for riolu no one would feel compelled to, not only ask, but to press.

It seems so whack that the moderators can just remove any replay and have the burden of proof of the inputs of a multiple year old record be on the player. Seems like they should rework their competitive patch instead of hunting players down like that.

That steering input looks like if you're driving on a controller and your finger slipped off of the knob and wiggled the other way a little I think this is a little bit of a witch hunt, a guy got lucky, nothing looks wrong about that run, and you're turning Trackmania into a bunch of Elitists where nobody else is allowed to shine

Fell off

For people who is wondering...The replay was removed from TMX leaderboard

def a bit sus that he didn't provide proof of this inputs, but there's no proof of cheating either, presumption of innocence prevails

Well, now I have to get out of retirement and get this wild wr, just to get in Wirtuals videos

Please SOMEBODY what is the song at <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="605">10:05</a>. He uses it in his videos every now and then and I can never seem to find the answer.

Not looking too hot for the future of the leaderboards if you can't really separate the real runs from the fake ones. If he didn't make the small erratic movement issue would this still be detected as fake? It's in the same boat as that doom speedrun where the guy cheated for a prize but they found that he swapped his inputs completely in 2 back to back frames. What kinda stuff can be implemented to keep things valid?

Just to weigh in my opinion here as someone definitely not knowledgeable in the minutiae of TMNF inputs and records etc - I don't think the majority of resistance to this video is based on the legitimacy specifically of this run, but the manner and spirit in which it seems Wirtual and the others dealt with it. I believe if there is a competitive patch that is meant to 'validate' runs, no run that passes that patch should ever be removed manually without some change to the competitive patch following immediately after. If Wirtual and the admins believe beyond a reasonable doubt that this run was cheated, no record posting should be allowed *full stop* until the competitive patch - the tool specifically created to ensure validation of runs - is reviewed and modified. If no flaw or weakness is found in the patch, then there are much bigger problems to worry about than the C02 record. Even if no positive change can be made to the patch, if they would require this player to provide 'evidence' to prove the legitimacy of the run, that evidence should be standardised and required of all players - no matter their tenure in the scene. Without that crucial step in the investigation, the moderation of the leaderboards is no better than it was prior the introduction of the competitive patch - a bunch of old school players, albeit incredibly skilled and knowledgable ones, deciding for themselves which records they like and which they don't. I wouldn't think that any of them, let alone Wirtual, would use that privilege to knowingly reject a completely legitimate run, but I believe that it would be just as negative an outcome as unknowingly allowing a cheated record on the leaderboard. To draw a parallel to athletics for example, imagine a brand new athlete runs a WR 100m time that noone thought possible - passing all drugs tests along the way. Would it be fair to expect them to provide additional evidence, eg their food and drink intake for the last month, without asking the same of all other athletes until the drug tests can be reviewed and updated if necessary? Whilst it's definitely an exaggeration of the situation, the concept of innocence until proven guilty is one fundamental to judicial systems around the world. Cases in TMNF records are of course more of a science than subjective and contextual legal cases, but I believe everyone would feel much more comfortable if at least the spirit is captured - of treating everyone exactly the same until they are proven to have cheated beyond a reasonable doubt.

how do we stop people offline creating a segmented run with key press recording on, linking them together, running with comp patch and then just pressing the macro and due to <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="61">1:1</a> probability in the game input (no rng) it works.

Maybe he is slowing down time in the sections that are most difficult to pull off. He wanted to make the wallbang guaranteed so he slowed down time near the wall and then returned to normal afterwards

racehans is truly the goat of trackmania

People were definitely crying about this in a discord and blowing up the mods dms with all kinds of tinfoil hat and threatening to leave the community and tell others to as well if the time didnt get removed.

is it possible to play with a mix up of stick and D-Pad ? Like , having the stick to the left and then pressing right on the D-Pad while maintaining the stick ?

Ok hear me out. What if he didn't cheat😮

It feels unfair to proclaim the run as cheated without any real concrete proof. I feel like calling it unvalidated is fair but i dont thing its right to say cheated without sufficent evidence.

I actually forgot this was a video about finding a cheater while I was watching it because I was so invested in the story.

On my old PS4 Controller i had one of these attachments to increase the height of the stick. If I full steer with it and let go abruptly it has enough weight and momentum with that attachment to slightly move to the other side and not only to zero. That happens so fast it could also be just in one frame of a video. This is not necessarily relevant for this video, just one more factor to keep in mind for more sus runs in the future... So taking a look at the input list is annoyingly crucial.

Could it be that he just spliced together three (or more) of his attempts and that's why he had to take this weird approach to the grass-dirt transition to make the inputs of the final part line up?

not playing for 10 years could easily be him playing on an alt account

<a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="792">13:12</a> My wife is in fact pregnant with my 3rd son now due May 24. Thanks Wirt.

So i have an *idea* of how an instant half steer was done legit, and it would be easy via the steam controller editor. As a trackmania pleb, i dont know how common this would be needed, but you could set up bumpers to be joystick over rides to hold a half steer for long periods with percision

"I really hope perhaps your wife is pregnant" -Wirtual

I really appreciate this thoughtful upload. In the last year I have married my wife, had children with her, and seen those same children graduate college. I was worried that my experiences were going unnoticed by my favorite TrackMania streamer. Thank you for the visibility, Wirtual.

Bro bought the wooting keyboard

Dude your jacket with the patches at the end is SICK 🔥

The Saltiest Gamer Exposes a Better Player

maybe obvious question but does a shortcut not count as being done unless it is a world record? because you kept saying Jules was the first to do it, and then at the end said it still has yet to be done. but you legit show Jan posting in the discord a run of 38.08 doing that shortcut

@Wirtual is there a mod for traction control?

The only possible explanation i have of the weird stick movement is something called snapback, where you literally let go of the stick and the spring sprongs, causing the stick to go the other direction for a significant enough amount of time. Significant enough for it to be a problem in smash bros

I think they were using either a macro or a save state to get to that point, because after the abnormal inputs he doesn't do anything for like .25 of a second (approximately) and then goes back to holding slightly right, which is about the reaction time of an average person, so I think he either used a macro or a save state and then had to react to the preformulated inputs / save state loading, which is why you see that slight pause on the inputs.

Clearly using Wirtual's keyboard with a cut range on a secondary analog steering key to get that wallbang steering input.

I've been using a controller for many years and playing TM 2020 on controller for a few weeks. To get that input change that fast I would have to change my hold on the controller and even then I probably couldn't get it that fast. That input change just isn't possible in a normal hold (like what you need playing in TM)

Cant you use modified D pads inputs to do that by mod I mean d pad will not steer more than x value like action keys?

An unknown player, not biased with all these pro-lines, uploaded a WR, thus he definitely cheated. No proofs nor any evidences. Witch-hunt in its finest.

Lets just put everyone that isnt recording themselves 24/7 in prison aswell

is it possible to joystick right hand and keyboard left hand that overrides joystick inputs? That would be a pretty fine strat if thats possible.

ngl wasn't expecting to hear Fox Capture Plan lol but it's a welcome surprise.

I have a feeling Wirtual is a cheater