Dynamic duo right here. Love Greg and Jacob

Love the discussion. Would love to see a regularly scheduled weekly or monthly episode collaboration between CWIC and Thoughtful Faith.

Greg, you’re spot on about how important language is. If anyone thinks differently just read 1984.

Keep up the great work, you two are pretty much the only Mormon podcasters I think are staying true to the faith, and worth listening to

It's interesting to me that we can philosophize ourselves even out of existence but it is an awesome conversation. Thankful for God😅

Pure Truth is the only thing that brings Pure Joy... our brains are wired to seek it from day 1. If Atheists don't believe in God or Jesus Christ, why do they continually use their names and why enable so much rent in their brains to go after them or anyone who chooses to believe in them?? This summer I spent 3 months with an Atheist, he became a member of our church in that time period and to this day is deep in the scriptures. I didn't convert this man, he felt something missing from his life for 69 years and asked me many questions regarding my happiness even through so much adversity and loss... we basically had parallel life stories, he was miserable and I was full of joy... he wanted what I had. A 3 week visit turned into 3 months and a blessed baptism and officially a new favorite brother in law.

This was a great discussion based around 2 Nephi 2. Materialism and Marxism are both based on the idea that we are things that are acted upon, not agents who act.

This descussion reminds me of these verses. 2 Nephi 12:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths; for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. D&C 1:16 They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol, which waxeth old and shall perish in Babylon, even Babylon the great, which shall fall. Let us seek the lords path and not our own way

Great conversation. Thanks guys!

There are "callings" for everyone. We do not need to usurp from others; every member has a place of importance in the great work.

I finally understand Greg's point on expressive individualism (36:00) being a carrot to draw people into a collectivist hive orthodoxy. He was trying to make the point to me the other day in a comment, but it finally made it through my skull.

Doing it how the Lord is inviting us to choose and to participate together through following His living prophet leading us to eat the fruit, the Love of God, “the right way to live and be happy” Amen thank you both so much for strengthening my faith and giving me so much to reflect on.

52:23 You have to follow the sheet music, as well as the conductor.

Awesome stuff, making us think deeply about our convictions is a beautiful thing

A stimulating discussion very similar to the ones we had in graduate school in the 60s and 70s on Secular Humanism. And similar to those of Plato. To me , now as then, these discussions are cyclical and never ending. Behavior based on a belief and faith in a real and living God with an exemplar of the foundation of that belief to follow, simplifies life and gives it meaning and structure to move forward and not in circles.

Wow! Such a great discussion. So much to ponder for me. Thanks ❤

As as a member who no longer has faith in the LDS church, and also never found merit with woke ideology, these two videos with James and Jacob have been pure gold. I would actually care to venture a few responses to Jacob here. His ultimate question - If there is no God, how is the highest power in the universe not simply human society? On that, I'd refer him to the idea of the Logos - a concept in Greek philosophy and the gospels both. There is a faculty possessed by man to reason and gain knowledge, but it does not function independently of a reality which we are all subject. I think most people would say, but particularly the non-woke who are not people of faith, that one's goals are best achieved when pursued according to that reality. We don't break with woke-ism because it sits in opposition to faith, we would oppose it because it's contrary to reality. Similarly with a lot of the other questions Jacob raises. Why doesn't Nietzsche's will to power idea serve as a justification for human action? Because not all of the human condition is explained by social power. In familiar terms, postmodernism raises questions it doesn't itself answer. It exposes our myriad social constructs by "deconstructing" them, but leaves us with the question why the constructs are there. People of faith answer this question with the idea that good things are of God, bad things are not. The woke ideology gives the same answer to all social constructs - they are forces of oppression by the privileged over the non-privileged. You find social power, you find someone being oppressed, it's that simple. But the follower of neither would say that there are multiple answers to that question, one for each social construct. Some reflect biology, some reflect economics. But if you lead your life believing reality is oppressing you, you aren't getting very far. To Jacob's discussion on human progression, I think it's useful to point out an idea from Thomas Sowell - the constrained versus unconstrained world view. It seems to me that people of faith and woke people both tend to have the "unconstrained" view - that there is inherently a solution to all things. People of faith think it isn't possible without God, woke people believe it's a matter of making the right society, the un-woke would just say it's not possible. Like Sowell himself said - there are no solutions, only tradeoffs.

You guys are on fire here. Great conversation.

Great conversation. I think you need to have another one showing that religious people are more likely to succumb to this ideology because they are confuse and conflate being equitable with being charitable. They also believe that rights come from God so people don't have the right to interfere with the desires of others. This ideology has many tentacles.

This was an awesome thought experiment! Loved it!

Great discussion. Much to think about. Both of you are awesome!!

Love this guys! Your arguments are so intelligent and insightful. I enjoy listening to your content.

I love these deep philosophical conversations. Do more like these.

"Let them worship how, where, or what they may."

51:48 Wow! So good. Once I had an oboe and used a plastic reed to play. It was awful. It sounded like a dead goose 🪿. We have to blend.

I'm trying to think of the writer for the Wall Street Journal cited by Elder Holland several years ago... The fact that we are all much better off living in a community with guidelines, limits, under laws, etc.😮

Right on, Jacob!

This is the confusion that happens when man loses his Divine Identity. Thanks to our Father in heaven for telling us who we are!!!

This discussion is related to Thomas Sowell's A Conflict of Visions or his "Vision of the Anointed." The Conflict of Visions describes the competing unconstrained and constrained visions.

36:11 Best comment by Greg, in my opinion! "The problem.. is the 'Collective'. Expressive individualism is simply a carrot to bring you into a 'Collective'." "In the end, what they really are doing is they are recruiting you to be exactly like themselves , and to think exactly like themselves, and to follow very strict rules, virtue signaling to say, "This is exactly who you need to be." So 'Expressive Individualism' is the carrot, but it's a lie. It's a complete lie. It is, "No, we want you to come in and be part of the hive. You need to be part of the hive with us and do what we do.""

You can take this, ultimately, and compare it to Lucifer's ideas of self-worship of one's self with his insistence on wanting power and glory for himself. His ideas are that no one person would be lost and the idea of taking away agency must ultimately happen under the sway of society. These discussions are so eye-opening, I love it. Thanks, both of you so much for what you are doing. I wish I was as well read, unfortunately, I have difficulties finding the time to spend the level of reading I do.

Awesome

Jacob sounds so proud of himself when Greg asks if that was all devils advocate. 😆 Great job to both of you

Wouldn't the correct dichotomy be Anarchy vs. Tyranny? The balance point is liberty!

24:40 “the highest thing we can do for human beings is to give them power to get what they prefer”. the problem with Jacob’s argument is that ultimately, the Christian worldview comes from man as well it just comes from man claiming to speak for a God. Man wants to do well and live morally. Just because you assigned God to it in your own worldview doesn’t mean it’s going to go off the rails if God isn’t assigned to it. In the future. Ultimately man will still be behind it, just like he always was but now one man can’t manipulate millions by claiming he speaks for God. This is a good thing not a bad thing.

Thank you brothers.

Great discussion I see the 'commandments' as spiritual disciplines which will literally develop our spirits and give us some sort of 'freedom' here but I suspect allow us to gain greater access to more knowledge and whatever lies in heaven

Organize yourselves; prepare every needful thing, and establish a house, even a house of prayer, a house of fasting, a house of faith, a house of learning, a house of glory, a house of order, a house of God; (Doctrine and Covenants 109:8)

The chaos in the great expanse was "organized" by the gods.

It’s telling something about Mr.Lindsay willing to be interviewed by a LDS KZfaq star.

You know yuval noah harari said this year at the WEF that there is nothing in the human biology that determines rights, so this is the direction of the movement.

Does feel we are at war to keep our agency.

You are both wrong. Jacob is right that Greg’s “western atheists” rely too heavily on a Christian foundation to call themselves honest atheists, but he misses the part where wokeism relies on that Christian foundation just as much. I completely agree with Jacob’s argument until the point he concludes that the collective, not the individual, is god in a logical atheist world view. The idea that my neighbors are inherently as valuable as me is such a Christian idea. If there is no God, then there is no moral reason for the strongest and cleverest man not to assert dominance over everyone around him. God isn’t “this individual” but AN individual. Which ever one has the power to make everyone else believe he is god. In a logical atheistic world, Alexander the Great had every right to conquer every nation in his path, and, since he was capable of it, he was god. And if that’s the case then the entire woke argument that the “evil oppressors” need to be dismantled falls apart since those oppressors had every right to assert their dominance.

Wonderful podcast! One thought. You both describe a similar philosophical perspective of making music or playing a game where everyone plays within the confines of a certain set of rules. Jordan Peterson has lectured on this extensively. Maybe you've already heard it? If not, I highly recommend you check it out.

liberty is freedom with morals

Everyone is born with the light of Christ….something that’s in our bones, our DNA. So, no matter where we are socialized, we instinctively know who we are. The quest of life becomes, then, for every individual to recover that Light.

I am absolutely a classical liberal (conservative libertarian) yet I absolutely do not put my faith in science nor society.

Jacob turned this entire episode into an attack against James Lindsay’s belief in a God. It’s telling that during James’ hour with Greg, he practically didn’t even mention God but instead reached out and recognized Christian goodness when merited, with no qualifiers. It’s telling that Jacob took an ad-hominem approach, injecting God into an argument that wasn’t there to begin with. It’s clear that Jacob does not understand James’ work on a fundamental level. Greg does understand it and it and he did a great job speaking to it. Jacob came across immature as if saying James’ thesis has no merit since he doesn’t believe in God. It was ridiculous. There is no way to have an intelligent conversation with someone like that. Jacob: read James book “Everyone is wrong about God” and you’ll become a little more enlightened on his work.

CS Lewis understood where this would go a long time ago when he wrote The Abolition of Man. If you haven’t read that about six times, you ought to. It’s not a long read. PS Lewis and Tolkien were good friends.

The gospel according to me! D&C 38:21 "I say unto you that in time ye shall have no King nor ruler, for I will be your King and watch over you." Here I would insert, D&C 45:26 "in that day shall be heard of wars and rumors of wars, and the whole earth shall be in commotion,and men's hearts shall fail them, and they shall say that Christ delayeth his coming until the end of the earth". now continue on with, D&C 38:22 "Wherefore hear my voice and follow me, and you shall be a free people, and you shall have no laws but my laws when I come, for I will be your lawgiver,AND WHAT CAN STAY MY HAND". I would propose that the Lord isn't speaking in oxymoron's in D&C 38:21-22, but that when he reigns we will experience free will as never before, under the bounds he himself sets.

We don’t give power to God. God is power. We are nothing without him. We can’t fight the adversary with out the power of God.

Greg, I watched you with We Are the People today and Jason brought up Gerald Bowen and I wish he would have brought up the Glen Pace letter because it talks about Gerald Bowen. Please read it. Glen Pace was a GA back in the day.

What is the value in having a discussion with an atheist? Esto es la pregunta.

36:15 excellent point that expressive individualism is merely the collective recruiting you to think like and be like them, which gives their false god more power.

A whole lot of woke people are believers in God and Christ. I know some of them.

When you research the progressive era, Croly, President Wilson and Walter Rauschenbusch and the Social Gospel Movement-you realize that what they wanted is finally happening 100+ years later.

Jacob's refrain of "all there is is power and preference" reflects Jacob's authoritarian lens. Those of us still in the classical liberal Enlightenment tradition do not accept this. We believe in something called objective reality. By understanding that reality, we can hope to better the conditions of humanity. We are humble in that we recognize that we do not fully understand the complex interplay of factors that leads to the "making of a man" (other than we are confident it is neither all society nor all biology), and because of that humility, we do not wish to impose our "power and preferences" upon anyone. Rather, we think the best route is to respect the individual as the fundamental unit of society in the form of Human Rights so that each person will have maximal opportunities to pursue whatever they feel will best suit their happiness. Classical liberals aren't interested in shaping anyone into anything. They don't see the government as granting rights, but rather as preserving them. The role of the government in a classically liberal society is to serve as a conflict resolution system with an eye upon preserving those rights. The U. S. Constitution, including the very important Bill of Rights, is a beautiful illustration of the fruits of the Enlightenment. Note that it makes ZERO mention of god. None whatsoever. This is because God is an unnecessary hypothesis for classical liberalism. That doesn't mean it is necessarily hostile to God, just that it doesn't require him.

However, look at the reaction from these people when you say you have 5 kids.....

Love the end. Maybe just to add: liberation leads to tyranny. I’d argue Liberty alone results in tyranny as well because someone will ultimately use their agency to become a tyrant. Both by themselves result in tyranny. When we are both agents unto ourselves with Liberty and willingly choose charity, then and only then can we have both Equality AND agency together. When everyone chooses both we get equality.

50:00 BOOM! Based.

This only becomes a problem at the judgment bar of God when a human being believes they deserve a glory beyond what they have acted out here in their temporal body. If we don't follow the right path of the actual truth, judgment won't be a pleasant experience. If you don't advance beyond a telestial state, you'll never know anything different. Christ is inviting us to advance to a new kingdom by overcoming the enticements of this fallen one. The truth will set you free, but it will make you miserable first.

I will say again, Korihor. All of this is elucidated in Alma 30.

“Differences are truths.” ?

We did not even create the language. God did.

So if James is against wokism as an atheist then what does he believe and wouldn’t what he believe stem from Christianity as an American built on a nation of mostly Christian values? Also, wouldn’t that kind of make him someone who honors and values those values as he seemed to suggest in his interview with Greg? So my question again is what does James believe?

Humans use language to define their beliefs about reality. That language does not change the basic facts about what is reality. Animals do not use language to define things. They live within the framework of their essential existence. A cat does not become a fish because its’ reality will not allow that to occur. A cat will drown if it chooses to live under the water. A human biological male can choose to define himself as a woman by adapting himself to act like a woman, but he will always be a biological male. All living things are what they are, unique in many respects, but they cannot become someone else, or something else, no matter how much they imitate that other thing. Their belief about themselves does not make them become something else even if they think, look, and act like something else. No matter what language you choose to use to define anything, will not change the nature of the thing you are attempting to categorize. You will always be you. I will always be me. A cat will always be a cat. A fish will always be a fish. A caterpillar may become a butterfly, but not become a mouse.

👍

Give the devil his due? Exactly. "Who are you?" "I am the god of this world." Satan is the father of delusion, the father of pretend, the enemy of all truth. His children are everywhere among us. And they teach for commandments the philosophies of men, the doctrine of devils.

25:23 do they want that? They want to give each person what they want only as much as what that person want fits into their world view. As soon as what I want in their view is bad, that desire needs to be held back. Religion in their minds is bad isn’t it? How would they respond if I told them I wanted to believe in God? Would they applaud me or look at me cross and demean me? I don’t know but I suspect they wouldn’t applaud me.

Voce poderia falar sobre a crenca de que homens terao mais de uma mulher do outro lado? (Sou do Brasil)

The Return of Jesus Christ is the only one-world government I'm interested in.

Deviation from expressive individualism -- if the term were an honest representation of the value system -- would be a contradiction in terms. Expressive individualism is a lie and collectivism, or outsourcing of one's knowledge and power and the abandonment of responsibility is the devil's aim. Take away agency and it's all Calvinism.

A failure to learn about Satan's plan for man here on earth would be fatal to the full exercise of free agency. The reason for this lies in the fact that . . . free agency is the opportunity to choose between good and evil. To intelligently make such a choice one must understand the alternatives-both of them. To the extent one is ignorant of these alternatives, to that same extent he has not made a complete choice. Until a person understands Satan's plan, he can never be certain he does not believe in it and is not helping to carry it out. H. Verlan Andersen What you two do so well is teach about satanic philosophies and why they are so deadly… I wish we could do this in our wards.

It would be helpful to disambiguate terms. You use the term atheism but I think you mean anti-theism? It’s not simply agnosticism or secularism right?

Hey Greg your last video has me wondering your thoughts on the how and why the brazen serpent is destroyed, in 2 kings

Marxist philosophy mixed with Plato allows egoists to assume they are the gods.

The other atheist world view is the Ayn Randian ethic: the only thing that matters is yourself and your work and your pleasure, all others be damned

My Mormon wife worships a God who created men with whiskers, and both men and women with pubic hair. I claim no real God would inflict that kind of curse on us!!

34:44 nature

Ugh.... This is like trying to convince somebody your right ear is actually your left if you choose to reason it so. Did I say reason?? Silly me. Sorry Jacob. Society does not make Man(men). Man makes societies. Man does not make God but men become GOD. Why are the atheistic and/or woke societies such backward thinkers? Lack in the use of God given common sense and lack of faith in those who know better. :>)

Great discussion. Greg much respect for defending the non-radicalized and critically thinking atheists.

Jacob has a super narrow view of atheism. Yes ppl are who they are cause of systems, but they’re also who they are because of nature. There’s a reason why Afghanistan ended up one way & Europe ended up another & why America just couldn’t go around the world creating other little Americas, nature is a real thing. Europe didn’t end up where it did because of Christianity, Christianity ended up where it did because of Europeans & I know Christians think it’s the opposite

Did Jacob join the Illuminati

well we are God jesus was our example and we have no other God before us.jesus said are we not Gods so please don't say we are not Gods that just limits us where we don't have to limit our selves

I don't agree with James, but I also don't think the format is good, fair, etc.

Just off his words he is right in that I have become at the end of my choices. My rewards come to me ie loneliness But if you apply his words to the Father’s plan . Then I must submit to the Father and follow the Savior learning the Father’s will and doing it and repenting when you see the error of your ways . Then you become a new creature through His sacrifice. T that gentleman just hasn’t looked far enough down his world . Their god is society submit to society. But if you go all the way out into eternity their god leads them to individualize no bond just slavery to their god of death for eternity but my God offers me eternal lion or even better lives eternal like what He has. It is like their rainbow each color is separate from the next but if you look at God’s rainbow there is a blending of the colors Tintoretto eternity where at the Father’s level that rainbow is white.

Man creates man? To the LDS is not God the Man of Holiness who is the Father of the Son of Man of Holiness? And did not this Man create man and it is His work to bring to pass the Eternal life of man?

I bet the atheists will argue with God that he isn't real when they meet him🤣

20:20 all it is is sneetches

I disagree that gender and sex have always been the same thing. Gender is a grammatical term that was not used to refer to human sex until the 1950's by a severely evil man.

Useless conversation.

Watching 2 amateurs hack away at philosophy is rather entertaining.

With respect, Greg, isn't this too much focus on wokeness? This isn't about belief in God, or faith, or righteousness. The anti-woke collective is not much more than people whose position in American society used to be unquestioned who now have a hard time seeing women, people of color, gay people, etc. in universities, boardrooms, tech companies, the halls of congress, and so on. It's people mad that Harvard had a president who was a Black woman or who are bothered by a non-white Little Mermaid or Hobbit. We develop elaborate rationales to hide this basic fact but the fact remains. The thing is, most of us are happy to share the world with people who are different from us. Only terminally online people care about wokeness, and banging on about it is the road to irrelevance. Anyone remember Ron DeSantis? Anti-wokeness sells well online to people desperate to recapture the thrills of gamergate. Most everyone else doesn't care.