Don't know if anyone has pointed out the reference, but it's Plutarch's Life of Marius 25. "When these things had been reported to the Cimbri, they once more advanced against Marius, who kept quiet and carefully guarded his camp. And it is said that it was in preparation for this battle that Marius introduced an innovation in the structure of the javelin. Up to this time, it seems, that part of the shaft which was let into the iron head was fastened there by two iron nails; but now, leaving one of these as it was, Marius removed the other, and put in its place a wooden pin that could easily p531 be broken. 2 His design was that the javelin, after striking the enemy's shield, should not stand straight out, but that the wooden peg should break, thus allowing the shaft to bend in the iron head and trail along the ground, being held fast by the twist at the point of the weapon."

Seeing how Michael goes from "what is this old dude on about?" To now full understanding and full participating with input is so amazing

If Michael ever gets problems with self-esteem, all he needs to do is read the comments under his videos with Tod. He is a good kid

Fantastic stuff Tod and Michael! I've wanted to see these tested for AGES.

Michael breaking the pin during the throw is a real testament to how much power he is putting into those throws. Most of us would probably have trouble breaking the pin by shaking it sideways, let alone just by throwing.

I also love how Michael is improving in throwing these. You can see that it is about training actually and once he knows what he's doing, he can do really good damage. I find this as a huge issue with alot of tests of historical weapons because people using them are not skilled enough to prove anything.

having Michael again is a treat, what a nice chap :D (I hope I'm using the British term correctly)

The handshake at four minutes and 50 seconds was amazing. It was just a testament of saying if you were in battle thousands of years ago you could’ve done well.

I get that Tod has a lot of confidence in Michael's accuracy. And deservedly so. But him standing in the line of fire still gave me anxiety 😅

One thing to consider is that the pin doesn't need to break on impact instantly, as you'd still need to pull the pilum out of whatever it struck. This most likely will involve a lot of levering and sideways force being applied, which probably would lead to the pin breaking even if it didn't just from the impact itself.

There do exist Pila, with parts of the haft remaining, from the site of Oberaden(Germany). (p. 18; THE PILUM, The Roman Heavy Javelin; M.C. Bishop).

It is fantastic that Michael is helping you with these. He's no legionary but he's one of the closest things we can get to these days and is likely within the skill variance level of the guys back then. I'd also recommend taking more types of wood than 1 as they do not seem to take much space.

I hope Michael enjoys participating in these videos as much as we enjoy having him featured on the channel. It's been fantastic having him help you out, Tod!

The first throw’s POV made me jump from my seat. What a shot 🫡

What a brilliantly simple middle finger to weapon scroungers like me. Frustrates me immensely that this idea is so good, and I love it so much.

If you want to do more tests on the shearing force required for different woods at the end, maybe use a simple spring scale (or a digital luggage scale) that have a “max load experienced” setting, or do it horizontally, with hanging weights from the tip of the pilum. Drying of the wood may influence the force required, too. I think this is a very interesting approach you have there. I certainly had some fun watching this! Edit: for weights, maybe use an empty water canister, and pour some in slowly, instead of metal weights or such. That way, it is slower, but easier to find the actual breaking force.

The more Tod does about spears, javelins, pilum and other thrown projectiles is they really work. That first throw to the right chest of the dummy that'll put anyone down and probably for good with out getting good medical aid quickly. Spears, javelins, pilum specifically are all fairly simple to make and take far less material than a sword. You could arm lots of people really and effectively with just spears and shields. Spears in one form or another have been used for basically all of recorded history. Even in modern times the rifle and bayonet is just slightly shorter spear.

You can use any wood you want by adjusting the thickness of the pin and the size of the hole it goes into. Things could get complicated and confusing if you aren't careful, though, but once a pilum is made, it wouldn't matter.

Just gotta love Todd's videos. Always going to learn something and have fun

It´s nice to compare Michael in front of the camera from the first video to this one. He is much more at easy, an you can see clearly that he is enjoying this colabs.

Michael is getting good at this! He must have a claim to be one of the best pilum throwers around

Michael would make a wonderful model for Renaissance artwork. The first 20-30 seconds where he's just casually standing with the pilum had just a wonderful aesthetic to it.

Selling the Trebuchet?! You better make an even better one then Tod!!! It's a fan favorite!

21:11 that actually looked devastating. The way the helmet tilted forward... Just wow. And as always huge respect to Michael! 💪🙏 PS: Mike's throw punching through a goddamn helmet...this was just intimidatingly scary. 🙏

The Video with Michael are always very nice. His Feedback ist really helpful and his throws are amazing. Thx to Michael for taking part in these Videos.

This experiment is awesome. I like the involvement of the javelin thrower.

The main issue with the breakable peg reference by Plutarch is that it isn't supported by any archaeological evidence. Of the examples of pila that have been found (and there are oodles and oodles of them), they either: - Have flanges in such a way that any kind of hinge being made by one peg being wood and breaking, could not actually happen - Are of the socketed "needle" type and thus cannot hinge - Have no flanges, but all the metal rivets are still there on the piece (two rivets or three) - Are the collared type which has a metal collar around the tang (in addition to the rivets; two or three) to prevent it from splitting the wood like a chisel or from hinging - Have a spike tang with no need for rivets, which also means no hinging There has not been a single pilum that has been found in the archaeological record currently, where there's only a single metal rivet and a hole where something else should/could go. Paul McDonnell-Staff did a very good article about it in Ancient Warfare Magazine Volume V, Issue 1. I don't want to dismiss Plutarch entirely, because it seems odd for him to mention this specific thing and there not be some grain of truth with it, but with the way they constructed pila from what has been excavated currently, the Romans seemed very keen on preventing this exact hinge thing from happening. Not to mention he wrote this biography almost 200 years after Marius died. Perhaps they experimented with the peg (hence Plutarch's mention of it), they didn't like the results they got, and then decided to add the flanges and collar to the tang in order to prevent it from happening.

Michael is such a Chad. I am socglad Todd brought him in, you can clearly see how much of a difference the skill level of the weapon user makes. It seems obvious, but people nowadays always seem to overlook this very fact.

I like seeing lads with geezers. I was always the young guy hanging with the old guys, and now I'm slowly but surely becoming the geezer. Old dudes know the most and have the best stories. I love this series of videos. And the pilum research is great. The only of its kind. Very cool.

Always hyped to see an episode with Michael!

I would not want to get hit by anything thrown by Michael. Even just a paper ball.

I love seeing him open up to the camera and at least to my eyes, get more interested in the results and giving insights to the armor penetration.

Michael is definitely starting to get skilled with those pilums. And amusingly, he's clearly starting to learn about these things from the other side as well, which is good, means he can do the testing better as well as help you adjust anything that needs it. And yeah, you definitely strained more on the boxwood. With oak clearly the 2nd best, and no discernable difference between the others.

10:40 "These are proper weapons. You don't want someone throwing these at you". My favourite statement

Michael is an amazing athelete, and I hope he turns his talents and mind to something like experimental archaeology as he grows older. There are likely very few people in the world with even the moderate amount of experience he has accrued in throwing a replica pilum. Combine that with a bit of scholarly training (formal or informal) in history, and he would be a truely unique individual!

the wooden pin idea is great technology. As a woodworker I can imagine they would have used olive and laurel wood.

We want more Michael!

Not sure if this is relevant, but here goes anyway. Now, as I see it, one of the main purposes of the pila barrage is to make it easier for the gladius action to follow. First prize is, pilum takes out man. Second prize is pilum sticks in shield and pivots when pin breaks. Now soldier HAS TO abandon his shield to be able to fight with his sword. It also creates some confusion is the ranks for the legionaries to exploit. Third prize is that when it misses and hits the ground the pin breaks and it pivots rendering it useless for a return throw.

The guy is alive, it went to the edges of shield and them, and the guy is throwing his shield down so that he can continue to fight. The peelem did its job.

Oberaden is the find site for the pilum that has the whole length of the metal shank, and the triangular "block" where the shank is riveted to. I'm not aware of other finds that have more of the wooden shaft. Oberaden, from the illustrations in Bishop & Coulston's "Roman Military Equipment", has one pilum with 3 rivets, and the other with 2 rivets, although both artifacts have the metal "colette" at the tip of the wood "block" firmly wedged in place with 2 metal wedges. So, IF there is such a thing of a wooden peg, as I think the source for this is attributed initially to Caius Marius, but, I am not aware of ANY surviving written reference explaining this wooden peg variant, so I'm of the school of thought that this is a Modernism that has become "fact" when there's no supportive evidence for its existence. Or if it did exist, it didn't seem to be in use for very long, going only by the 3-rivet artifact. It appears the Romans put a lot of effort into making sure the iron did NOT break on impact, at least in the 1st century CE/AD period, again, IF such a variant even existed. We also don't know which of the rivets is supposed to be the wooden peg, but again, we don't even know what the original source(s) is supposed to be describing this variant, if it ever existed. it's a similar problem we have with the "weighted" pilum. We have a single depiction in sculpture showing a sphere-like shape, but no artifact has been excavated; Polybius mentioned a socketed, shorter, barbed-head "lighter" pilum, and a "heavier", supposedly the tang & rivet version, to throw into the enemy at [close] range. The whole idea of a "weighted" pilum (ie Vegetius) may instead be referring to the Plumbata. I'd also like to point out that all of the Pila (irons) that have been found, that I am aware of, only some of them are bent, in a gentle curve. But there is no other period description I'm aware of that specifically mentions the design of the pilum was even to bend/break on impact. The excavated examples may have been bent on purpose as a votive/sacrifice, ritually "breaking" the weapon, or, making it otherwise "un-usable" to an enemy who would have dug it up, in the same general manner we see earlier Roman and even earlier Greek helmets and objects "ritually" broken or bent/damaged to prevent its re-use, etc.

Love the video. The next time you see Michael I suggest you take a variety of woods: you don't want to find that box is too tough, though you could sand it down, I suppose.

Fantastic work. I remember reading about shearing pins in pila many years ago (30+). Good to see it put to a fairly scientific test. Keep up the good work.

Great video! I can tell Michael's really getting interested and comfortable with this role as the historical javelin thrower

Is it just me, or has Michael become much more precise in his throws? Sure, he missed twice, but the times he hit they were square on!

oh no, tod is selling his trebuchet :( hope he will make a new improved one

Shear pins in engineering have a shear point, a groove around the pin at the place you want it to shear the deeper the groove the easier it breaks, a grooved bone pin could be an option.

Maybe a pilum with a socket, rather than a tang would be better in this case. For this one, I wonder if having the metal pin be closest to the shaft would be better and less likely to break on launch.

Excellent tests as usual. Wonderfully done. That shot to the helmet was brutal. I did not expect that. From the most powerful warbows a person can shoot standing up, I would expect that kind of hole. The velocity and the weight of those big arrows are amazing. But from a hand-tossed pilum, I really did not expect it to just cut right into the helmet like that. Wild. I agree with your conclusion and I think that you'd probably opt for a sturdier pin, because ultimately if a few of the pins break, that's a few less the enemy is throwing back at you if/when they can. But if you lean more on the side of weak pins, you'll end up losing a valuable weapon and wasting time and energy and money basically disarming your soldiery of their primary weapon. Nobody wants that! Certainly the better of the two scenarios is to opt for something a little sturdier.

Ebony is a lovely and hard wood. (for knives). But, as you said, quite expensive. A harder and dark black wood is African blackwood. And it is substantially less expensive than ebony. Especially, the 'radio' black ebony. Love your videos, have a great day. The U.S.A. specialty craft wood stores carry it. And the net should suffice if that wood is not available in England.

I wonder if another positive of having the sheer pin is that it means that the tip is less likely to bend on impact. The pin acts as a sacrificial part that prevents damage to the more important components. After a battle, you can always collect the pilum, replace the pin, and it's ready to throw again. Whereas before, you would need to bend the tip back into shape.

Todd, I can recommend making a few extra holes, so you can move the pins around, or add multiple. That way its easier to tune the system. The stronger pins should also give more penetration because the breakpoint would be higher, but at the cost of less chance of breaking off.

its really good seing michael again, also him talking more than when he first showed up really helps the video.

Thank you for another one :-) hope to see another video with Michael soon :-) and wishing him all the best in his sports career and in his life :-)

The breaking on throw does lend to the idea of enemies not being able to use it, even if it doesnt break hitting the ground then pin may be damaged enough that even an untrained thrower would snap it on the return throw and just saving you time having to go and pick them up.

What a difference a professional makes. I can't imagine how much time he saves you.

I've grown up with the idea of pilum being soft shafted and bending on impact, and it's ingrained itself into my mind so strongly that even after seeing Tod's other videos proving it was much stiffer and would penetrate shields and chainmail i never even considered it being able to punch through an actual steel helmet. It actually makes me wonder how well it would do against other types of armour - scale armour, bronze cuirasses, even medieval plate armour - even if they would be unlikely to ever really meet historically.

The barbarian with a pilum through his cranium isn't in the mood to return the favour.

I love how much Michael has been showing up in the videos this year. (:

Love Tod's experiments - gives me a sight of the ol tymes

Michael is thoroughly enjoying himself in these videos.

That was awesome, the headshot alone was worth it. Thanks to Michael, hope to see another test.

I’m most impressed that he’s standing down range of that thang and doesn’t blink.

Jesus, man. That chap would have been quite the war machine back in those days... What a thrower!

I love how he became more at ease in front of the camera! I also wonder how much of the energy is lost (and therefore penetration power) because of this shear design.

You could make it break more on impact by making it so the normal pin has some back and forth play and the wooden pin does not and keeps the pilum point extended, so on impact the wooden pin takes all the impact damage, but in other directions the pins both carry the weight.

You should probably also consider using green woods for the pins you're testing. The live wood would add some flexibility to the pin that should help keep them from sheering on launch.

Another approach to the problem might be to simply rotate the shaft when you throw the pilum so the hinge slot is horizontal instead of vertical. The force of the arm going up would then work against the sides of the slot and not the wooden pin. The simplest fix is often the best.

This series of videos is just wonderful! Thank you so much.

Todd Love the video. If you're doing a comparison on break-force on the pins: next time use a luggage scale / similar pull scale to get hard numbers. Keep the videos coming!

I don't think that these were used very often. The pila would be more fragile during march/transport and sometimes the legionnaires needed to use them as actual spears (against cavalry etc.). Maybe they could have one of their two pila pinned sometimes or prepare it for a specific encounter when they hade time and means to do so.

Thank you Tod for the great videos!

Very interesting ! As a person who gives talks about Ironage weapons and compairs with roman weapons , I have explained about the Pilumb , but untill now I have never seen it .. Thanks for posting.

would be interesting to see softer woods. they might flex in flight but then snap upon impact

I would assume that generally they would err on the side of too strong rather than too weak, since obviously breaking on launch is catastrophic, but failing to break on impact is only sub-optimal. Another thin to test would be whether it matters if it's the forward pin or the rearward pin that is wood.

He can not only throw but also hit a target consistently! Very impressive and gives a real 'visceral' insight into how dangerous a weapon it was in its day. Was there never a time when they used pilum as thrusting weapons, when the wooden peg would have been a handicap?

I always enjoy Tod's videos, and having Michael there to help him with his expertise is great! But we are not talking about the most important fact in this video: Tod is SELLING the trebuchet!!!!

Might I propose that we change the word thrower to chucker? I much prefer, "our resident spear chucker." Let's consider some of the interesting aspects of the word chuck. According to the online etymology dictionary there's a specific connection to striking a person: "to throw," 1590s, variant of chock "give a blow under the chin" (1580s), possibly from French choquer "to shock, strike against." If we explore further it holds a connection to the main part of Michael's body that permits his chucking of pilum as the etymology dictionary tells us the chuck is: Specifically of shoulder meat (from early 18c.) So Michael uses the chuck to do the chucking and if that's not enough, chuck can also mean "device for holding work in a lathe or other machine" is from 1703 (also chock)." So in a sense, Michael is the chuck in that regard too, as he's holding the work of your (or someone else's lathe). It also just sounds fun. Cheers and thank you for always putting out such interesting videos.

I think what we are talking here about the pin breaking, is that i dont think the Romans wanted every single pilum to break, so they used slightly stronger wood, I agree with todd. If only 30% broke that would be enough numbers to not be thrown back at the legion. So a good deal. There was a lot of skirmishing in ancient and medieval warfare, and good skirmishing could get you a victory or the conditions for it.

That spear to the head shot was brutally perfect lol

Love these vids. Great work you two

These pilum videos have been really cool and informative. I wouldn't want Michael throwing one at me!

I love it. Thank you gentlemen!

I would suggest, as others have been too, that you consider having two or three wood-pin types ready for test-throws. First, because I assume that having more types of pins dont incur morr work on your end, and second, because I doubt the 'validity' of the strain test. I am no engineer, but I assume that there's a big difference between stress testing wood for strain (as you did) and percussive force (as impact would do). Love these types of videos and I look forward to seeing many more!

Maybe the pilum had an oblong hole that would allow a small shift rearward that on impact that would cause the pin to shear, Just an idea. Great video gentlemen.

Excellent work.

Another stunning video from this series. It's a pure joy to watch you guys.

I haven't read all of the comments but something stands out to me - if the pin broke on launch for a few throws, then surely if it survived a throw and impact towards an enemy, then there must have been a greater chance of it breaking on launch from an untrained enemy trying to throw it back. Furthermore, if it did break at launch from an enemy towards "friendly troop's , it merely needed to have its pin replaced and it becomes usable on the offence once more! Perhaps a very small part of any battle but it would have an impactful (sorry for the pun) psychological effect.

Michael made a good point. It might not just be the type of wood (although clearly critical), but the diameter. 9:24

Lmao, Michael threw so strongly that he broke the peg. Absolute beast!

Think the reference you were searching for would be Plutarch, Caius Marius (Life of Marius) in chapter 25. Whenever I have read this in the past, I have always envisioned Plutarch being visited by the “Good Idea” Fairy, like roller-skating Home Guard or Japanese Anti-Tank mines on a stick. I must admit I’m impressed it worked as well as it did and I’m looking forward to future testing

Interesting that you could even hear a difference between the woods even with the low quality speakers I use for the "web rig". Putting aside the throwing back, isn't it easier to bring the pilum back to useable shape after the fight with this method than bend metal?

Michael is unbelievably accurate and powerful! What a talented man.

Fantastic video! My modern informed idea: If you would set the head in a too long wooden socket at the end of the pilum you would still get the moment transfer on impact but it still breaks. And the orientation on throwing would be irrelevant.

One thing I do wonder is how much power the pin breaking removes from the throw. The pin itself probably isn't much, but it might transfer some of the force that would have driven it forward, into the target, to the shaft which is now flopping around. Its turning a rigid projectile into a very flexible one.

Always love your work!

Great fun. Keep on testing!

the shots where the pilum is coming directly at you are so scary haha, I keep flinching

So the Roman’s would throw them knowing they had to be clocked in the hand or they would break upon launch. The enemy might know they needed a stick but might not know they also needed to hold them a certain way throwing them back. It’s also hard to bend the head back into shape after impact if it breaks so easily. That’s really quite clever.

It's a bit unnerving how good Michael has gotten at aiming straight for the throat/collar area. Definintely wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of that lol

My issue with that system is, ... is that alot of the force of the throw will absorbed by breaking the pilum, that will lead to less penetration. I am not sure how much of a difference on a wide scale battlefield that will make. But in the end of the day, the breaking pillum will not penetrate armor and shields as well as a stable pillum. Alot of the force of the throw is in the wood, so if the momentum of the wood is not put in the tip of the pillum, but in the side swing ... a lot of leathaly is wasted