As a very old analog jockey, I have a few points to make. On many consoles, the solo button can be used to route the signal to the main meters whilst keeping the fader at infinity. And then set the pre-amp gain to an optimal setting. When I teach gain structure, I pull out a schematic of a consoles' signal path and focus on the pre-amp module and discuss the options available (pad, phantom, phase revers and the triangular representation of the gain amp). Mic level in, line level out. And then follow the signal through the rest of the channel, keeping EVERYTHING at unity. In practice, a mic level tone oscillator at the input, should produce a -20dbfs (or 1.23 volts or 0VU) at the final output. I always kept my sub-group faders at unity during sound check and at the start of the show. Then, if there was a drum solo, I could ever-so-slightly push that sub group up. I could easily control the backing vocals or the horn section. All the things you mention about the channel fader resolution also apply to the sub-group and main faders. You need to take your explanation gain structure all the way to the speakers and include cross-overs and amps. Turn your amps all the way down. Run some pre-recorded music through your console, making sure it is properly gain-structured and is hitting the final output meters at an acceptable level. Now, start slowing turning up your amps until you get the desired volume in the room. Too many people start by turning the amps to 10 and then wonder why your method makes things too loud. If you're running a 3 way speaker system, start by turning up the low amps until it feel right in the room. Then, turn up the mids until it compliments the low end. Then turn up the highs until you get the right amount of crispness desired. You have now done the gross EQ for the room and the system. Any fine tuning of the room EQ is then handled by the 1/3 octave EQ (post the main faders and pre the amps).

I liked this video and found it very informational. My only thing is I wished you demonstrated what you were saying. It would really complete the learning experience of this video especially for the visual learners

Very good explanation about how this works. MOST people at churches behind the board have no idea about this and need to watch this!

Thank’s for this understandable video. I appreciate it so much.

Very well articulated. God bless you. Love from India!

You did an excellent job explaining. This is exactly what we needed for our team. Your thorough explanation is what makes you the best. The knucklehead who commented on you saying too much should just fast forward the video. Lol

Great explanation of the proper operation of a mixer. Console operates best with faders at unity. This has been my contention all along, as one can immediately hear when the console is not getting (or getting too much of) what it needs.

Hi. Great work on the vid. It's some useful info. I got a question. I am in a 4 pc band ( no drums) do we need to set gain everything time we setup amd do soundtrack? Or can we just use our settings from rehearsal and adjust when we setup at a gig. Thanks a ton.

At last a video where the subject is well explained. Seems like you have watched the "Where did 0dB go?" Video by Robert Scovill, which I can highly recommend. Thank you.

Thank you for the video. In the future could you work in some visual application? Some of us are visual learners and it would help seat your words in our memory banks.

I've been doing live sound for 20 years and I really enjoyed watching your video looking forward to being able to use you to help train my team at church

Great! thank you

Dude, your voiceover sounds incredible. Kinda random but I had to say it

Hahaha this is the problem im facing now.. Thanks for the good explanation

While it's true that using the subgroups (or DCAs) this way to keep proper gain structure at the inputs, and channel faders riding 'around' unity, works... And for an installed system with volunteers that maybe shouldn't be messing with things at a system level is not a bad approach up front... But... Technically, if a properly gained channel cannot have it's channel fader getting anywhere near unity without being WAY too loud, and everything on the console seems normal (no excess makeup gain on compressors, no double-assignments, no DCAs accidentally dimed, master level at 'normal'...)... Then that is pretty much a case where a system tech needs to evaluate system gain after the console. Of course, always starting with looking at things within the console to make sure everything is as it's supposed to be. Especially since we're talking a house system where all the gear stays the same versus a provided rig (rax and stax) where an act might be bringing in their own console on a revolving menu of of amps and speakers for each show. So for an installed rig, if the staff isn't all that technically savvy, there's nothing really wrong with just adjusting at the main fader as a quick fix versus adding subgroups or DCAs into the equation that weren't already there. In fact, there are some good reason why that might even be a better approach. Let's say there's a stream mix on a matrix off the main L-R bus. Assuming it's tapped pre fader (as it likely should be for a stream from the mains) then turning the main down will not at all change the signal going to the stream. Adding subgroups between the channels and the main out will be choking things back before the main bus and so the stream matrix will get a weaker signal. But ultimately, if we're talking major amounts of pulling things back (whether channels, subgroups, DCAs, or mains) to get a tolerable level in an installed PA, than that's really a good time to get a tech onsite to evaluate the system gain. If it's just a case of one channel being really loud and everything else is OK at 'around' unity... then that is odd. The faders of course need to be where they need to be for a solid mix, but for one thing to be that far off unity when everything else is OK kind of points to some type of problem with the channel (double bus assignment, makeup gain cranked on a compressor... etc...). Or something really loud onstage. And in that case, it probably doesn't even need to be in the PA ;)

Thanks for this! Super helpful! We're running the Behringer WING. I have my DCAs set for each instrument group along with their FX and parallel compression buses. So the Drums DCA also has my drum verb and parallel compression bus in it. Would that DCA then be acting the same as a subgroup or do I need to free up some buses on the board and replace my DCAs with subgroups?

Very well done. I've been looking for someone online that I can send others to that ACTUALLY understands all of this. The one thing that I think would help push this along further is if you were to show folks how you would approach a drum group mix, or vocal group mix, or even better, the ever tricky guitar group mix that has acoustic and electric guitars in it. I think if people could see that there is a fader in EVERY group that is at Unity and everything else is balanced around it, the "digital difference" from analog would click a lot faster. Once again, GREAT job.

I agree on the Input gain part, Set at -15 or -18 dbFS (Can lean to -12 db on Digital instruments and sound sources since they are compressed by nature of their output amplifiers). But the fader part, really goes against the "avoid mixing at Unity philosophy". Faders are meant to be used along all their scale, even if their resolution is better near Unity. The artistic use of it needs it to go from -infinity to overhead. Human sound perception is diferent when there is a calm, melodic, contemplative interpretation of the song (Where transients are small and not many instruments on stage) than the perception of a full Rock energetic piece is being played. Where many sound sources have to be compressed and fight for leading place, and consecuently, any fraction of a db has an impact on the relative position of the stage. It is a deep topic worth conversation. May the years of experience and experimentation lead us to better serve the Lord. Edit: for typos and clearer interpretation, since english is not my first language.

My goodness this just sounds like exactly what i needed to learn. Though my problem is that am using an analog mixer to set the foh mix for our church. How do i maximise the subgrouping strategy being that the board i use has only one subgroup option and one aux option. I feel stuck there, also being that am using the same board for sending sound to our live stream through the aux out. What can i do

This sounds a lot like Robert Scoville's gain structure method that he's been teaching forever. I like the approach of this method, my only issue is when you start to apply group processing you are likely to be clipping on the input side of the group therefore clipping your processors in the chain. My approach is to use VCA's as "trims" into these groups in order to maintain my levels at optimum throughout the console level architecture. Line level on the input chain, line level at the groups, line level at the master, line level at the matrix. By following this I am confident that any processing I apply at any point in the console I know will be at an optimal operating level. Cheers.

Do you also aim for the signal of the master LR mix to be in the yellow / unity too so the master fader is at unity?

WSG I have a livewire snake with combo jacks Can I put a line level 1/4 into the combo jack then use an XLR TO 1/4 adaptor to put it into a Boards stereo line level channels?

Wondering if you would use DCAs in the same way?

Great video man! One really important question though. What about digital trim on the input channels? I work on a Midas Pro-Series console. We can change the signal flow several different ways like most consoles can but we also have a digital trim at the same stage as gain. Is this something only Midas has? I'm confused as to why you didn't mention it. A simplified version of our workflow is gaining up to line level, adjusting the digital trim to the point we can get the fader up to unity, dynamics, eq, and then the signal splits pre-fader to the auxes. Our inputs then go through DCAs and then finally the master bus. Is this the wrong way to mix as described at the beginning of the video or is this just another way to mix?

Good explanation ！👍 But if you include 「Optimum Signal/Noise Ratio」adjustment in the `initial Gain Staging process' it would be more complete ！ 😊 👍

Quick question, if you used an effect on the mains, like a compressor, would there be any disadvantages to lowering the output that way so the volume is correct in the room?

What about using the gain (make up gain) in compressor to get the level even before the fader.

This is fantastic information - I was puzzling between a DCA and a Subgroup to make this work correctly- I am having to run my Subgroup master faders quite low on the console (around -20 db) - Is this normal? Or is it perhaps that there is to much power in the PA itself, and this needs to be adjusted down?

Thanks for your video. I want to watch more videos but I appreciate a bit of practice and tasks showing and listening band or artists making soundcheck to get the sound that we want

One thing I’ll add that I’ve even seen industry people who do this everyday miss, is don’t forget your pads. Some preamps are so sensitive that you can have the gain all the way down and drums mics will still peak them out. Don’t forget to take advantage of your pad in that scenario.

Okay so my drummer has a D4 would he be in one subgroup in the bass player being one subgroup and the acoustic guitar player being one subgroup and then the praise and worship team being one subgroup pastors lapel being one subgroup and the piano being a one subgroup is that how I'm understanding it?

Aren’t Groups different from busses though? An aux/bus would be a separate mix you can do with individual fader control of each channel within that submix that can be pre/post fade, while a group would essentially be like a post fader bus with the sends all at unity, but no separate fader control

What about if you have a lower end console where subgroups are at a minimum or not at all? How does gain staging apply to that when it comes to reducing input sound? I started on an Allen and heathe analog console where subgroups was difficult to use so I used my ears a lot of the time to gain stage while fader was set at unity and then mixed rather than looking at metering in that process.

hello i just get x32 and im wondering about your “X-32 PRESETS PACKAGE”. Where Can I check the preset list? Is there any shure mic preset?

Is a VCA the same as the sub group?

I was hoping you would mention "Digital Trim". Curious to see you use it.

But using subgroups will create the same scenario as lowering the LR bus? Just use DCAs and digitally trim the master down...

What about DCA/VCAs?

bro yaps for a living

Thanks, but this was mostly over my head. I need a 101.

Vola

Well none of that matters when you're stuck mixing before the fader. Just use the damn tool that's given to you and stop worrying about where the fader lives!...

I'm amazed, 15' of video to answer why if you done the gain structure correctly on the console the sound in the room is unmanageable: your power amplifier is too high!!

Good video ... though it's always best to show it on the mixer of what you talking about. Explain and show works best as a teacher learner in music. Cut out the too much talk .

What if I turn down the trim knob? Is the same thing of turn down the group?

Thanks for the tip. But couldn’t you have said this in 2 minutes?

Most important button? Easy, it’s the MUTE button. 😜