I won't give up o Hollow Knight facts, in the game, you have access to a charm called "shape of Unn" which TRANSFORMS you into a worm or whatever that is, but the important thing is that, it transformificates you in less than a second when you heal masks, its not a mutation process, its an instant transformation that takes a second or less, and if that doesn't work i will pull AGAIN the argument that in cult of the lamb you can't use that relic on mini bosses or the bishops (including Narinder) so divine creatures, creatures with the fraction of the power of a God or ALREDY TRANSFORMED creatures can't be afected to transformification a second time once they transform first. With love- The yapper.

It's funny how many people are convinced that Lamb is a benevolent leader Kind of like how cultists see their cult leader. saying that they're a kind and fair leader even though they are used like a resource

On the transmografication point with the knight, we do actually have a potential thing to show he resists/is immune to it on a spiritual level. The infected knight is another shell who's body is overtaken by the infection. If the boss is dream nailed after defeating it we fight a stronger version of the boss, even though we see none of the infection left in the shell. That would mean we dream nail the shell itself who is infected on this greater level. There are two other things I'd say are weaker arguments, but I'll just bring them up too. The hollow knight was getting fully transformed by the radiance, but we also see the radiance perfectly sealed by the knight (this could be a possible debate on sealing too, but I'm not trying that). The last one I can think of is the void in general, we see the void can take multiple forms and even do a kind of transmog itself with enemies. We'd also have the debate of transmoging the void lord being essentially impossible since it controls and produces the void which can be produced in dreams and infect the awake world even after. Now that I think about it, we could also argue that the knight can actually kill gods outright. The entire pantheon is filled with gods. Now I don't know if he can actually kill the gods of his verse by the end, but that could mean the lamb has no win con on the knight, while the knight has a win con on the lamb.

29:26 "he would have to eat, like, a hundred thousand pills, he doesn't even do that in his own game" Jera + diplopia exploiters: wanna bet?

Quick fact: The Radiance (the final boss) and Absolute Radiance are different. The Radiance is the main antagonist of the game, while Absolute Radiance is the Radiance but buffed up from the Godseekers’ attunenent. Also, The Radiance is female.

one weakness you have failed to mention is that the lamb has a power source, if you kill all the cult members the game ends and he loses all his power from lack of faith. Assuming these protagonists are capable of either observing that the lamb gets his power from the cult and surviving for a significant amount of time could probably beat him also the shade lord has several hacks over the knight, namely commanding/being an incarnation? of the void, "void given focus" as the game puts it, and assuming that the lamb can transmogrify the entire void see is absurd, it's basically a force of nature.

22:55 It's confirmed that the Pale king made the Vessels, the Knight's species, out of void. An ancient liquid darkness that's one sentient magical mass of a primordial god that acts as the counter-balance to his world's goddess of life and light. The Radiance (Absolute Radiance is just her at the height of her power since, the Pale king destroyed her physical form and sealed in her true form, the Radiance, within the dream because that's her domain she's the goddess of dreams.) Is a threat because long ago she found the withering form of the life goddess and absorbed her, essentially fusing with her. The Radiance gained the Goddess' power, as well as their fear of the Void and Shadelord. When the Pale King basically stole all of her followers' land, forbade the worship of her and nearly killed all of her followers, she got pissed and created a bio-magic virus that infects you through your dreams and then infects you body. Acting like cordyceps, that fungus that brainwashes ants, except this traps the infected within a dream instead of making them truely brain-dead. Void is a naturally corrosive, magical, and all around toxic substance since, you know, the shadelord is basically the Hollownestian god of death. So the fact the Pale king managed to create a living being out of it is absurd. Btw the Knight never dies. His "health" bar is actually durability for his mask, when it breaks he would cannonically become a shade and need to repair his mask or get a new one in order to have a body again. Shades are not souls, they're liquid void. A consciouness but soulless being. A mind that's ethereal to all, even the gods and goddesses of nightmares and dreams due to the Pale King designing the vessels, HIS CHILDREN, TO NOT HAVE MINDS, EMOTIONS, OR EVEN A VOICE BECAUSE HE WANTED TO USE ONE THAT IS 'PURE' AND VOID OF ALMOST ALL OF THE QUALITIES OF BEING A LIVING CREATURE SO HE CAN USE THE VESSEL'S MIND AS A DREAMWORLD JAIL FOR THE RADIANCE. sorry, the pale king is a bishop level douche and I think that if the lamb and knight put their differences aside they would have an astonishingly large amount of shite in common. Like how a big eldritch-esque god basically made them their avatar. Yeah that's what the charm you need to complete the base game's true ending represents. Voidheart is proof that the knight learned the truth of his creation, confronted his past, and accepted his destiny to save his big brother from the Radiance by any means necessary. Gaining the power to properly enter the Radiance's domain and strike her down for real. Until Godhome came out . . . But you basically still need Voidheart to fight abs.rad. in there since all bosses aside from final bosses must fall in order to reach the Hollownest Pantheon to fight Abs. Rad. And prove your worth to the god tuners (the guys who created and live within this part of the dream world) and be crowned the new strongest god in Hollownest. Funfact, I believe this is also the cannon ending now as well. So the knight is now the vessel for a primordial god of death and the abyss. The reason absolute radiance exists is because the God tuners believed she was the strongest Goddess in the kingdom. Hence their worship allowed her to reside within godhome and far out of your reach, even if most of her is still within the hollow knight. The Voidheart charm is composed of 2 pieces, one found at his father's supposed grave, the other was a gift from his mother. Recompleted and dipped with the essence of the void, pacifying the restless life seeking beings of the voidsea that would've attacked you before. Yeah the Goddess of life was Scared of the Shadelord but the Shadelord loved her so naturally he pursued her and wanted to embrace her. All living beings are imbued with life so a fraction of her technically exisists within everyone. Yada yada symbolic representation of the cycle of life and death hope you enjoyed the Hollow Knight lore. Oh btw transmogrification definitely exists within hollownest, there's a badge that let's the Knight turn into a small worm so he can suprisingly speedily move while healing with a shrunken hitbox. There's another one that forms a tough shell around him to protect from damage while charging a healing spell. Shoot, the Knight's Shade cloak ash ability counts because it enables him to tap into his true form for the sake of passing through attacks and magical void blockades.

Benevolent cult leader sounds contradictory

The reason the Lamb is able to indoctrinate the gods is because he defeated them, which was a point I made in my original comment. Striping them of their powers will deal a massive blow to their ego and will. The others that the lamb indoctrinates are those he saves, and occultism is NORMAL in the setting so it makes sense that they would join. The dialogue before you get before your first follower explicitly states they join you out of gratitude. I didn't mention this last part in my first comment to be fair.

Arguments for the knight: In terms of motive, the knight goes out of its way to kill most godlike beings, especially ones with mind control. We see a second instance of this in game with the grimm troupe. (and a third with the godseeker if the player goes for that ending) Transmogrification doesnt work on them, as the charm "Jonis blessing" is supposed to magically change all your body fluids into lifeblood (which was implied to be lethal to the aforementioned Joni) but it only affects their masks (the void is unchanged). The same goes for shape of Unn, which changes the knights body while the void inside is unaltered. I think the critter magic would def change the shell, if it even counts as seperate being, but I dont think it would affect the void inside. If you need another argument, the shell is born from two gods, which arent affected by transformation magic in CoTL and for fairness I think that should tranfer over. Even if it doesnt though, see the aformentioned The infection isnt biological, its mental (and manifests physically through seeping through the dream world which is why its primarily coming out of peoples eyes and heads), and we know of other vessels who have gotten infected meaning the knight is particularly resistant The knight doesnt have a soul, like, literally, striking void creatures that dont have shells doesnt give soul, and the shell is separate from the shade inside the knight, which we know can reanimate without the need of soul or magic (if not possess stuff as we see other shades do) The knight has the dream nail, which lets them enter dreams of incapacitated or unconscious creatures, in which he cannot be killed (but he can kill the souls and alter the minds of others as seen through the dream warriors and Zote's GF) Aditionally the dreamnail lets them not only teleport out of bad situations but also absorb a large chunk of creatures souls when struck (which is an extension of their/void's normal power as well). On this topic, simply being around void sucks out your life over time, so if it comes down to it the knight just has to get the lamb weak enough to enter his dreams and keep him there long enough to rot away the physical body (as his crown would not enter the dream realm as a separate entity unless called by a creature like the godseeker) in terms of hax, With the Voidheart they have void itself unified under their will, which implies a form of hive"mind" that they control. We dont know how much void the knight has inside, but we know it can produce more via dreams and said void can seap out of peoples bodies physically. With sharpshadow, the charm lore itself can "transform shadows into deadly weapons", which implies that this is an ability the knight has even if it doesnt use it. This also means that void is considered a shadow, and is capable of hurting things while being invulnerable (as nothing is seen to physically hurt void when its not inside a shell, just force it to retreat) With soul eater, "Forgotten shaman artifact, used to draw SOUL from still-living creatures." yeah. The knight also has world sense as a power, which tells them exactly what is still left to do and implies a level of advanced knowlage similar to the lamb. Additionally, the godtuner item is a "Device that resonates with beings of great power." which attunes the souls of creatures the knight has killed or defeated to godhome, essentially banishing them to that dimension to live in a loop whenever the godseekers decide to make them fight. The only thing we know that can destroy void is the delicate flower btw, which doesnt exist in the CoTL universe I hope these are interesting points for you to cover! Great video!

31:03 actually, i think you CAN delete bosses if the Eraser finishes them off. I once saw a tip that erasing segment-based bosses like Larry Jr. and then fighting Delirium would cause him to try to turn into Larry Jr, but because he was erased, he gets erased too.

From what i can tell, the transmog isnt from the red crown, and dosent work on even minibosses, and i would assume the knight has at least miniboss status. And even then, the shade lord is made up of an thousands of siblings, so the shade lird isnt one creature, its an amalgamation of many. And considering that voide can be created the shadelord can just make more shades as the lamb transmogs sibling. So its an infinat stalemate and eventually, because the lamb can take care of its cult, they will eventually all disent and as the lamb is stuck fighting the shade lord it wouldnt have the chance to find more and thus eventually the knight would win.

I’d argue that killing Abs Rad in Godhome is proof enough he could kill the lamb. The Radiance is the god of dreams, and the knight killed them, while they were in a dream (Radiance’s domain), and at full strength, by bringing void into Godhome, something that should be impossible, considering Godhome is a dream. The Knight overpowered the God of Dreams, by bringing in Void that could not have been their earlier, as the only void in Godhome is from the knight, broken vessel, lost kin, and pure vessel. I doubt the lamb has the power to stand against void, which killed a deity inside their domain

I would like to make a point against the transmogrification spell *(and keep in mind, I know very little about the COTL lore and mechanics, so please correct me if I’m wrong)* but to my knowledge, the Lamb is unable to use that spell against the Bishops or The One Who Waits. This leaves me to believe that the Lamb is unable to use that spell against deities, or godlike beings. The Knight, in lore, is basically three gods mashed together, and not just any gods, but two pale beings and the literal void. For anyone confused, in Hollow Knight, there are “higher beings” that are just gods. However, there are beings that stand out even among them, those are known as the “pale beings”. The parents of the Knight are the Pale King and the White Lady, who are both pale beings. This would already make the Knight immune the transmogrification, if my theory is correct. However, the Knight also has a third godlike origin, that being the “heart of void’, which is literally the strongest godly force in the game. So this makes me believe that the Knight would not be susceptible to transmogrification, due to its godly heritage. So basically, this means that neither the Knight or the Lamb have the capability of killing each other, unless you believe the Knight could kill the Lamb as the Shade Lord like they did to the Absolute Radiance. So this would probably just lead to them fighting forever, being completely unable to take each other down, until the Lamb just dips out, or maybe even killed if you believe the Shade Lord has the power to do that. (And to anyone who read this whole thing, thank you for listening to a mentally unhinged moron rant about one of their favorite games, just to probably be wrong in the end.💀🙏)

ok, technically isaac could scale to the biblical feats of his respective bosses, as they are directly based off of them in issac's canon.

Just so you know the lamb does have one way it can die. the lamb can be permanently killed if all of his followers are dead so technically the shade lord could kill all of the lamb’s followers THEN kill the lamb. Edit: don’t be rude in the replies. These are all hypothetical scenarios.

23:30 i totally see your point but as someone how has spent countless hours researching hollow knight lore I'm not sure is the spell would work caz what the knight truly is is void and we don't know a shit about void, heck even demy gods like hornet can't stay around void for too long without it starting to drain her we just don't know shita about the void only that it's some ancient thing so there's always the possibility of the spell just not working but since we don't know that the Lamb does have the benefit of the doubt.

Counter argument for Isaac: gnawed leaf gives Isaac immortality to everything after a couple seconds but he can’t move or shoot but he does have some items that do contact damage and also there are cards that give him temporary invincibility instantly

K, so we're taking lore over game mechanics If that's the case, Isaac shouldn't even be on the list, he's literally a normal human child (also, he's dead, so)

Now, for the suggestion: which indie game heroes can survive dead cells

Couldn't the knight just read the mind of the Lamb to see his weakness of all followers dying and then use that to then cover the entire area with void, thus killing all followers and potential followers, meaning the Lamb would just die. The void is a collective given how the void heart is described to focus it together. Given that the transfiguration affects only one the void still has more to attack with. Plus to my knowledge the Lamb hasn't shown any resistance to void meaning that it is entirely possible they will falter to it.

Alright, I know I’m a little late to the party, but I do genuinely feel that the Knight wins in this situation. (By the way, the way that the Knight is able to uncover secret passages, learn spells and solve puzzles validates them for figuring out weaknesses in my book. I’m also really into character debates right now, so I’d love to hear criticism on this.) The Knight is shown to have the ability to destroy the physical forms of beings in the Dream No More ending, temporarily putting the Lamb down before they regain their physical form. However, while in this state, the Knight can easily follow and completely obliterate the spirit form. We saw this in the Godhome endings, where the Knight was able to completely erase the Absolute Radiance from reality. Now, the transmogrification ability was initially difficult to get around, but I have a few answers. First off, the Knight can go incorporeal through their shade dash, but that might not work. However, the more damning evidence is that the Knight DOES have transmogrification abilities. Through the ability shape of Unn, the Knight is able to shape themselves into a worm and back to normal, so it’s not a stretch to assume they could simply shape back or go into the shape of Unn and then shape back. Even if this doesn’t work, the Knight will die in the critter form and resurrect itself back into its normal form. Additionally, if they do activate shade lord, it’s not as cut and dry as one may think. First off, the Knight has the command of all the shades, who have similar powers to the Knight, but this might not work. Second, the Shade Lord might be used as a final middle finger to the lamb, simply using it to destroy EVERYTHING. Although they might not be able to destroy the entire island, they can destroy cities, using this to just pick up massive chunks of land and throw them around, or ripping apart the earth of the ocean to create tsunamis. Third, the shade lord can summon shades to fight with them, and the transmogricon can only affect one at a time before recharging. Fourth, the shade lord can do its own transmogrification/shapeshifting, and fifth and finally, the Shade Lord can simply use its city-destroying powers to kill all of the Lamb’s followers, resulting in a permanent-death for the Lamb. We know that the Shade Lord might try this after associating them with the enemy. The Knight is shown in game to have no problem with killing innocents, it has no moral compass, and can blend in watching with the shape of Unn or other shapeshifting and spy on the Lamb. And even if the Lamb goes out to get more, the worst possible scenario for the Lamb might take place. If the Shade Lord moves quickly enough, they could probably wipe out the vast majority of intelligent life on the island, rendering it near impossible for the Lamb to find new followers. Also, the Knight can veto many of the Lamb's attacks, as discussed in the video. Also, considering that everyone on the island isn’t immediately transmogrified whenever the lamb uses the ability, the Knight could use their immense speed to leave the island every time the lamb tries to use it. I have no doubt that they’re fast enough to do so, or at least get out of range. Additionally, transmogrification might only blast the knight out of their current form and rush their resurrection, basically doing nothing but create a shade that will be somewhat hard to deal with. Even so, they have their resurrection and possibly transmogrification, their teleportation and most of all, the power of the void. Also, a little bonus: the Shade Lord seems to grow nonstop once brought into existence, so if it just played its cards right, it could very well get to a size where it can simply collapse the island in on itself, burrow beneath it, cause disasters such as earthquakes, it could go into a liquid form to mess with crops, it can influence people, possibly getting them to sacrifice themselves so that the lamb has no followers, or maybe even just engulfing the entire island. This falls under the argument that shade lord is immune though. There’s also some theories that state that the shade lord is made up of every shade, rendering the transmogricon pretty useless against it. Btw if the next one is about John Ward from faith the unholy trinity, I have a five page google doc explaining why he solos fiction

I don't know a lot about cult of the lamb lore but i have to ask, since the knight is not a living being but the corpse of the pale king's child reanimated by the void, would he still be affected by the transmog spell?

23:33 ok this may not change your way of seeing it but The knight has total control over the shape of its body, heck it can even transform into a worm himself no help from the lamb needed and then it just transforms back into normal

For the hollow knight discussion I believe that the knight cannot be killed by the lamb with the transmogrification because it is a higher being similar to the bishops which can't be killed by the effect although there is probably a other way but the transmogrification won't be one of them

shovel knight -> proceeds to tell that the devs saying it can beat kratos is bs isaac -> "the devs never said that, so its bs" do u trust or not the devs words my boi ?

The Lamb cant just indoctrinate anyone he wants, though. The only way he's beem shown to be able to is if they submit to him or they've been beaten down. The bosses he can indoctrinate? They have to be defeated first. The grand majority of your cult members? Weak and helpless critters that will likely die otherwise, so of course they'll submit themselves to the cult.

It is certain that the Hollow Knight may not overcome the Lamb with all feats, but what I could see is a direct tie to each other. The dark magic to transform beings into normal insects is definitely devastating to the Hollow Knight, but now as you stated in this video, there is some possible way for the Knight t revive after a defeat. Given lore and game mechanics are weird together, the Knight will have to deal with it own mechanics if they were to try to revive themselves. You're right with the Shade Lord is just a power-up version of the character with the same hacks, but just pushing the lord to the side, there is a feat at a point when the Knight was about to transform into the Shade Lord. Beside the dream dimension, the Knight brought the whole void to the realm up to the peak of his power and the only way that the god of said realm died was from the help from the void. They ripped up the weakness to permanently kill a god open for the Shade Lord to strike. Then imagine how many entities are there in the void that the Lamb need to take on, to prevent possible reach to the shade with this black magic that target the others instead. What may be the problems with some suggestions about these characters in the comment section is that people may be too focused on direct feat entirely done from the character itself without other effects an action could bring. From gameplay from how the void were uplifted into the realm is from striking the strongest foe that is linked to a realm, it does not entirely be on death, but it would also tell where the Knight get most power when the strongest enemy is at certain normal death. So recap on this, both Lamb and Hollow Knight have almost all hacks that counter each other, but the Lamb have dark magic to transform one being into a normal insect where the Knight does not have a counter to. The Shade Lord itself does not have new incomporal ability that is set above what the Lamb couldn't handle and the only way for the Knight to achieve the form is if the void is fully uplifted to the realm. As of now the Lamb will need to worry of numbers that the void itself brings. I have no idea what the entities in the void are capable, but for certain they could physically interact everything else. This would potentially put the Lamb's members at risk of being killed as it may be suggested that Lamb's powers came from the amount of members worshiping him. Eventually, someone in the void would aid the Shade Lord to open the weakness to the permanent death of a god to finally eliminate them. Again, the only way to first start uplifting the void to this realm is by striking the strongest enemy with ties to this realm closer and closer to death. The Lamb would need to be careful about getting hit from Hollow Knight, Pride is sure a death sentence for those who could not manage it. In game of Cult of the Lamb there will be hints where the character directly see the bishops using cultists as a mean to power uo for the fight, Hollow Knight might catch onto that hint of vulnerability if he can. The void itself may be the only way that the Knight could able to have an actual edge on taking down the lamb than just his own hacks. However, what is your opinion of all of this? Do you think, will all feats and capabilities on both side even at endgame, this will just be simply a direct tie for both side without any resolution?

The transmog is a relic, the lamb can not change their relic in the middle of a fight so they could only have one relic at a single time, the transmog is also a horrible relic being a fragile one time use so they won't probably have it on them, if they do it is still very unlikely. That is my argument for why the lamb vs Knight would be a tie

31:15 Firstly, the eraser does technically work on bosses. It deals 15 damage to them, and if they are killed by this damage they are erased. If isaac were to do so on the island, it should work and they will be completely erased. It may also prevent them from coming back as bosses with phrases will skip their phrases when erased, though I'll accept that this is up to interpretation. Secondly, Eraser should work on not some cultists of a type, but all cultists. Starting a new run is in no means canon, meaning that there is really only one basement. And when you use an item like R key, erased enemies are still erased. It's not a regienal thing, its all avaliable instances. So, since the Lamb dies when all of their followers die, Isaac could simply erase the lamb's followers and wait 3 days and boom! Isaac wins. Since the lamb can change the appearence of their followers when they indoctrinate them, we could call all of the diffrent followers one single type of enemy, meaning that erasing any one follower will erase all of them. Every singly one. Instantly. And since the lamb would then likely go and search for non-existant followers, all isaac has to do is not engage and he wins! Even if we be generous and say that every form is a seperate type of enemy, that's still a finite amount of followers, and every one erased will decrease the amount of followers that the lamb can find.

For HK argument 3, i think tzey state in the game that the vessels are ''void given form'', implying that void is formless, so yes, you could change the vessel, but not the shade inside, and the shade can damage the vessel, (proven by the shade and siblings attacking the player) so i don't see why the shade couldn't just leave the shifted vessel and fight the lamb as a shade. And also what makes us think that the shade couldn't turn into the shade lord again, we don't really know tge conditions required to do that, so maybe he just unlocked the ability, and no, it isn't just a godhome exclusive form, you can see void leaving the physical form of the godseeker in the ending cutscene.

The knight could probably use the Dream nail to enter The Lamb's mind and defeat the lamb from inside

also something I'd like to say While the Lamb is never at any point actually good in a moral compass of our world, it's somewhat suggested he's considered a better option to the bishops, so saying he's the pure evil of the island isn't really appropriate, since the times we see the lamb sacrificing someone is for a purpose of appeasing Narinder, or to fight against cultists (through trailers), while the bishops do it all the time purely for greed (through cutscenes in game, and the state of how the rescued characters are in game)

Fun fact: protagonist undertale would absolutely wreck the island, regardless of route: in pacifist they are shown to have so much will power as to literally come back to life while fighting a god, and no matter which route, throughout the majority of it they can just turn back time to before they died if they do. Also, if we assume the pacifist route to mean they are willing to save anyone, on that route they literally gain willpower from having saved those people. And, even then, on the genocide route, they are shown to at most be slowed down for a few minutes by those who would take significantly more effort to defeat on other routes. And you can’t argue that undertale isn’t an indie game: it absolutely is, it’s just extremely popular.

For Isaac I didn’t saw any mention about some stuff so I’m just gonna get it out: - the eraser DOES work on bosses but only if the boss is killed by the damage the eraser does, so if Isaac can (somehow) leave any creature with a tiny bit of health and then throw the eraser, yeah that would erase it -using the item Mama Mega can clear most of the island from any cultist and weak enemies, and since bishops get their power form the faith of their cultist just by killing all of them with the many “affect all” attacks that Isaac has (like death card, magic fingers, all the Ace cards) he could effectively weaken the bishop enought to be able to kill them (maybe not permanently) -thanks to the item “Urn of Souls” he can take the souls from his enemies and use them to unleash a stream of fire consuming them… I think it’s pretty clear where I’m going: backpack you hold 2 active item, any respawn item to survive plan c, Plan C to insta-kill any boss (this works against any boss in Isaac even the more powerful and immune ones) and trap their souls in the Urn There are some other tricks that he could pull off but I think this is already enought

I think that you saying the shade lord doesn’t have resistance because he is a different god but give the lamb resistance to the erasur of Isaac because he is a god even too he has shown no resistance a bit weird

One single thing If the island was completely destroyed, where would the Lamb respawn? Also, void is not a singular entity, but a force of nature, united by the Knight’s will, and, if the Knight itself is transformed the void would still rampage and, possibly, destroy the island in process Same thing about the Knight’s respawn If Lamb somehow destroys both the Knight and it’s most recent bench it would not come back

Shade lord description - Void given focus.

I don't know if anyone has brought this up yet But The lamb can perma-die if it has no cultists in the cult

Hello, I make myself the lawyer of the devil and bring some things about Hollow knight. First I want to say that despite having played cult of the lamb I don’t know very well the power entitled to them so I’ll just trust you blindly on it. First let’s take the knight as it is when you’ve done 112% of the game (the vast majomajority of it excluding P5 and all of radiance fight in god home). This being can seal god, defeat them AND the concept they represent. For that point I’m referring to the achievement “dream no more”. The description is : defeat radiance and consume the light. You effectively consume dream and light putting an end to the infection. Infection wich is not a disease or biological, it is a twisted and passive ability of radiance who corrupt dreams of lesser beings. Later on radiance use it to screw the white king. Now, let’s talk about what I believe is the way to go to beat the lamb and his Island. So, the void heart and shade lord. First the charm void heart : «Unifies the void under the bearer’s will. This charm is part of the bearer and cannot be removed.» by the last line I’ll assume even transformed in an insect he would keep it, wich means he is still able to use void ability. As such, intangibility, diverses sources of magic linked to void and soul (mostly void yet) , resistance to physical attack, regeneration and immortality. (It is stated that there is no end to void, and at the end of the god home end if you didn’t gave the god seeker a white flower the void effectively seize the void. It was only because of influence of creatures like the pale king that void was “just” infecting and killing creatures who were near). Beside void passively screw living creatures we have some occurrences of it during the game. The first is the tower of love and the bearer of the love key, who even if he flee from the collector was still found dead corrupted by void. The second is the guardian of the void sea. Back to shade lord, this creature is herself above god in HK universe, being unaffected by every of their powers, traveling freely between dimensions (dream and real world). This creature can consume the whole world, it’s at least what implies the ending of god home, but if not let’s say hallownest since void is under there for sure. Void can be volatile, liquid or solid, it’s a “thing” that exist since forever wich ancient civilisation worshipped and used for diverse use as magic, portal that blocks anything but pure void, charms or idol that change form depending of their surrendings. Finally void is stated as “the darkness itself” making it a concept and not just some random powerful fluid. If I wanted to push it I could even consider it to not be affected by magic since magic as in hollow knight is corrupted by the void (creation of the sharp shadow charm). Thanks for your attention, beside that video was great and I hope we can discuss about it more because it’s a really cool and interesting idea.

If you’re going to argue That the knight is not immune to tranMogg because he shown no resistance to it then you can’t argue that the bosses and the lamb resistance to the eraser do the bosses and the lamb have existence-erasure resistance.

there is a bunch of things that makes Issac win: rock bottom + literally anything else like lusty blood and anemic that ramps infinitely + every single stat upgrade with no downside and Issac's heart making Isaac invulnerable as long lamb doesn't know about it which he'd have no way of knowing so and even then there are so many extra lives Isaac has he would find out about the cult members being needed for the lamb and just use eraser on one of them deleting them all and lamb would die from lack of faith, if the lamb ever does a hard hitting attack pretty much all of it will be nullified by the wafer and before you even say the lamb could just use The Transmogricon and win, it would be a ASTRONOMICALLY low chance it targets isaac given he has every single familiar in the game, and the conjured enemy from the item friend finder bloats it even more since The Transmogricon targets a random enemy

Bard from Wondersong is defenetly either Unifying the island or dieing imidiatly. He unified the world, but also he is heroic so Probably dies before one song.

Wait, how come you discard something the devs themselves have said, but still keep something that we can only speculate is the case, and has never occured in-game? With the Narinder being bigger than a mountain and all. Narinder was clearly not holding back in his fight with the lamb. If he could grow to the size of a mountain, he would've, yet he doesn't. The games indirectly contradict the Narinder-mountain theory.

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The main issue with the eraser for issac is that in cult of the lamb when you do some of the rituals, your followers might pull up their hoods, which gives em red eyes similar to the cultists you see in the crusades. and since the lands of the old faith is so diverse, if issac used the eraser on a regular cultist, that would maybe take out the species from the lands of the old faith, which depending on what he uses it on might actually net him a bishop kill, since a lot of the bishops state after you find their quest item, that they were just a regular animal before they found their crown, and since squids can be found a lot in the lands of the old faith, if issac used the eraser on a squid, it might end up just whiping kalamar from existence. but then again what do i know, depending on how long they've had the crowns it probably changed their biology or smth

This series idea is insanely badass, and id love to see a gungeon related video, like maybe rougelike characters trying to sirvive the gungeon or the actual gungineers surviving other worlds. 10/10 video dude, can't wait for more!

Issac also beats Satan, Mega Satan and angels and the concept of insanity and whatever hush is, the Eraser can erase bosses as well(they need to be low hp) and also Isaac and ??? are literally bosses in the game so transmog or whatever won't work. I think Isaac beats the lamb simply because of items like the flush(turns you into poop and kills you), and many other items like Little Horn and Euthanasia that oneshot most enemies.

I feel like the closest reasoning people believing the lamb can be “good” is because of like the blue options which are better than the red options and slightly based on modern religions. By being slightly better than the red options I mean eating grass, worshipping harder, etc while it may not be easy to notice there usually there usually some underlying evil like belief in afterlife trait they literally do not care about other followers dying. TDLR: it’s my theory people think because the lamb has some better options they are good, which is clearly wrong

ok so i have 2 things to say about hollow knight. One might change the thing a bit, one definitely won't 1. The Radiance is canonically female. Just straight up canonically a "she". 2. Nightmare King Grimm. Edit: Oh yeah also the knight can just use shape of unn and turn into slug.

I'd like to say, if the knight was the shade lord, they could just enter the lamb, ggs, he's now dead, or a vessel like the knight, although I doubt that one given that the knight only becomes a vessel due to being a pale being from the pale king and white lady.

Man this video is great

In the binding of Isaac there is an item which is unlocked from the lost and is called the mind which unveils the map and prevents curses. Even if I am wrong there the black candle does that as well. So with at least the immunity of curses with the black candle he would make it a little bit farther. Nothing crazy but it would be a resistant to curses.

“ People always ask me, who would win in a fight between this character or this character? And the answer is, the writer chooses who wins. If Spider-Man is fighting against thanos and I want spider man to win, spider man would win.” - Stan Lee

One thing for the knight dream nail you didn’t really talk about that

Why is it that isaac, the castle crashers, and shovel knight get their items but not skul? The powers of many of the skul items are myth tier, such as evil sword kirion (subtext states the ability to absorb lifeforce) or oberon the fairy king (not to mention the many respawn items, some of which can be repeatedly used), and the quintessence system allows skul to make use (or improve his physical stats) of souls which have died previously, even without a skeleton. He has the ability to consume unlimited quantities of cultists' souls to increase his base stats as well as weapons on par with the lamb's (which were capable of incapacitating the bishops). I believe that, while maybe not a match for the Lamb, Skul could easily match up against the bishops and maybe the One Who Waits. (Not to mention even without consuming copious quantities of souls, skul is capable of leveling an entire mountain-sized steel robot and tanking massive astroids with ease)

While I do think trans mod would work on the knight, it wouldn't be as effective on the shade lord as the shade lord is made of void, which is nothing given form meaning the Lamb can use it but the shade lord would just revert back to it original form as it's seen turning into true form a liquid void substance. And I believe you misunderstood what trans modification means as it changes the physical structure of beings, not what they are made of, and even if you give it to the Lamb being able to change its matter it still can revert back as it is said to be above space and time. So, in my opinion, it would be an endless battle, and neither would win.

The only thing I'm unsure of is how powerful the knight is, due to the fact that they are technically a pale being and we don't know much about them besides the fact they are more powerful than gods.

For the argument in the section hollow knight 3, this might be to much game mechanics but mini bosses and main bosses can’t be transformed so if the knight is as strong as a mini boss at least he might not be able to be transformed but it might be based on size of enemy idk I did not look into the ability as much as you probably did.

I think the Knight still has a chance because of dreamnail, he could enter the lambs mind where the lambs dark magic would work but unless he kills the little bug he would not be able to leave that place and if he kills it, that would mean nothing to the knight because in steel soul after he dies in the dreamworld he does not die IRL because the dreamworld effects him little to nothing generating a more or less infinite stalemate unless the knight can kill him there that way damaging his mind not killing him just making him paralized even if what I said is stupid I think we should still put dreamnail into the fight because it is a strong tool and after 1800 essence no mind protection can save you from its power

I have a point that helps Cuphead and Mugman. Cartoon characters cannot be killed. No matter how dangerous or cruel the situation is, they will not die. Throw them into the sun, crush them with a mountain, or rip their souls out of their bodies. They will not die. As long as they are the main protagonist, they cannot be killed. The only way to fully kill a cartoon protagonist like Cuphead is by killing the writer or the animator, which I don't think the lamb can get too.

In the last half of the devil fight, we see the devil grow really massive and probably the size of it not bigger than clum stone. Also the knight is not “living” in the technical sense so trying to kill or even break his shade would be like hitting a ghost. Void can’t be destroyed only calmed that’s why there’s globs of void in the white palace because even though the body’s of the guards were destroyed the void can’t be it is a force of nature in the same way heat(like the temperature )is. And another thing what do you mean by the shade Lord is basically a stronger version of the knight the shade Lord’s completely invincible and can extinguish any light that’s how it kills the radiance because the radiance is the goddess of dreams meaning that if someone remembers her than she will live on so you it’s very difficult and I do mean very difficult to kill her that’s why the pale king created and killed millions of vessels because that was the only way to stop her from essentially destroying hollownest.

On Hollow Knight: Point of order, the Knight’s respawn mechanic absolutely is diegetic. The Shade has an entry in the Hunter’s Notes, which is written by the Hunter and there’s a mystic you can pay to summon your Shade via seance if you don’t want to hunt it down who comments on what it is and how weird your interactions with it are compared to how they usually do things. The Knight is _both_ the shell/vessel _and_ the Shade, as seen by the Notes describing killing and reabsorbing it as “becom[ing] whole”. Also notable is that the Knight is also a god, the Voidheart, a paradoxical antigod of Nothingness and Deicide. “All that shadow shit” _is_ his true form, post apotheosis, and, in the golden ending where he defeats Absolute Radiance instead of just normal Radiance, he doesn’t seal her, he _eats_ her utilizing the Void’s anti-divinity powers, which should also check off “strip them of their godhood”. Flowerless Ending also shows that he’s capable of destroying all of Hallownest _basically by accident_ at that point. Also, I think his ability to physically enter the dreamrealm and kill gods (notably including one specifically _specialized_ in mastery of the dreamrealm) is probably relevant. Also the Infection is also dark magic. It _manifests_ as puss and mutations and stuff, but it’s literally a divine curse. I could further argue that his anti-god nature lets him resist divine magic in general, which is distinct from the whole “is god-should resist things local gods resist” argument. He’s actively anti-god, and saying that wouldn’t work on CotL divinity would be like saying the Lamb can’t soul grab someone from a world where souls work different. The Radiance is also, as mentioned, basically a god of mind control, so he definitely _has_ fought god-tier psychics in the dream realm. Also he has the ability to spawn Adds, which would make the Transmog less of an I-win button since it only transforms one randomly chosen enemy and then needs to recharge, which would at least give the Knight more time to stall, if not steal the physical relic that allows for it. On Skul: this isn’t really an argument, more of a question, but given that team crossovers are on the table (the Castle Crashers and the hypothetical “what if mugman/miss chalice” scenario) would the calculus change if the spider bitch was also on the boat that shipwrecked?

I think the one who waits looming over the mountain range is more metaphorical than literal as his presence looms over everything.

aight, time to crack open the hollow knight lore. So, I think the thing you overlooked the most with the knight, is its absorption ability. it is shown, multiple times throughout the game, absorbing spells, souls, artifacts, and so on, and gaining abilities and/or resistance to other abilities. we stole the spell from the soul master, absorbed multiple snail shamans, absorbed all of the collective shades and void to become the shade lord, absorbed the radiance to trap her, i could go on. so there is a serious argument that the knight would gain the abilities of the other gods in cult of the lamb when killing them, and then attacking the lamb. however, i haven't actually played cult of the lamb, so i don't know how much help this would be (especially considering that the lamb was able to beat those gods in the first place) my next point is a little weaker. there is an argument that the knight cannot be transmogified when being the shade lord, because there is and argument that the shade lord is not the knight, but the entirety of the void as a whole, united. hence, the lord of shades. this coul imply the shade lord is a sort of almalgamation of all the shades, and could potentially mean that the transformation spell wont be able to affect all of it at once. now i am aware that this didn't really add to the knights firepower, and only its survivabilaty. my guess is you would have, essentially, a perpetual pendiulm swing of the knight traping the lamb within itself, the lamb escaping, the lamb and knight fighting for a long time, the knight trapping them again. idk how long the lamb would be trapped, but this is essentially how the vessels dealt with the radiance before the shade lord became a thing. if the void weren't so inherently hostile to literally anything that comes near it, i would argue they would get a cult following, and the island might be split between the lamb and the void. but i think the void might just decimate the island, leaving only the lamb and it left.

10:00 say what you will, if we are using the characters at their strongest point in the games, the castle crashers have enough willpower to beat insane mode.

The eraser DOES work on bosses if they are low enough to be killed by the damage the eraser deals. It prevents delirium from using that boss' form, and if you were to try to spawn that boss the same run you couldn't, they'd just poof out of existence.

In regard to the Hollow Knight critter argument in the comments here: I would like to remind everyone that any conclusion we draw is going to involve assumptions. It’s an unavoidable conundrum in crossover speculation: if a Thing* exists in one universe but not in another, it’s impossible to tell what the Thing* would do in the world it’s not a part of. There’s a lack of information that requires us to make judgement calls. The argument could be made that the Lamb’s transmutative magic could bowl over any universe where transmutation doesn’t exist, because how could anything resist something that was never there before? It could also be argued that since the Bishops can resist the spell, any being with a similarly deific presence (the Knight in this case) would be able to resist it too. I personally fall into the latter camp, in part because the possibility of one spell dominating anyone who hasn’t fought an analog of it is…kind of an uninteresting concept to me. But there is just as much proof that it would work that way as there is that it wouldn’t - so to say, none. So please, I request that everyone keep that in mind when continuing this debate. These videos have established their interpretation well, so the best arguments for or against the Knight should address it on its terms (like the Shape of Unn example I’ve seen people pose). But brazenly arguing the point solely because your interpretation is different will lead to a discussion that goes nowhere. Now, a conversation on which interpretation would be more narratively interesting… Anyway, thank you for your attention. Happy debating! -A Stranger in the Comments

Actually skul freeze time ability could be useful as unless theres proof the lam can resist time freeze. Skul would be able to freeze him in time if he can activate it faster than the lam. Also before you bring up something like "well he can move in his own freezed time" for the most part a characters own ability shouldnt effect them and therefor shouldnt be used as a resistence feat.

the knight is a shadow like vessels are specifficaly stated in hollow knight the wanderers journal which is a offical journal that can be bought on the team cherry store. That vessels are shadows. The journal Also says the wyrm aka the pale king's previous form could burrow through Mountains and was so big its ashes covered kingdom's edge in it. And in my personal opinion i do believe characters like tbe knight and the absolutte radiance could probably fight the wyrm

here's another thing about the knight, though. The thing is, the knight is not made of shade, it is made of void, and that is a Canon part of the lore. The void of the Shade Lord grows because the siblings come to add ther void to that of the knight's. This shows that the vessels can manipulate their void. This means that when the Lamb uses transfog or whatever (I forgot what it's called), the knight would just manipulate their void to fit in the body of the critter, and not get considerably weakened. In fact, it could be a power up, because then there would be a large portion of raw void which they could control like they could as the Shade Lord, the only problem with that being that it may be hard to control two void bodies at once.

So an interesting note if we take the whole "They are all there at once" and not that each is there alone. Isaac does in fact have the one item that could see the Knight/shade lord win the fight. In Isaac there is an item called the black candle that has the effect of "Curse immunity + evil up" assuming that the effect that transmogrifies is considered a curse this would take the one win that the lamb has from the knight. At that point the battle would last until the knight or the others (Whoever might still be alive.) eventually kill off the lambs cultist as he is stuck in an eternal fight with an enemy who just won't die. Of course this is only if we take that all of the characters, or at least that Isaac and the knight are there. Plus there is the question of if they would even work together etc. It is just a potential win con for the others against the lamb.

so tldr hollowknight vs cult of the lamb is basickly an endless draw with both the lamb and the knight being imortal and unable to permently kill the other

I’m pretty sure in the cult of the lamb universe the one who waits is the devil so if the devil in cuphead and the one who waits are the same power level I think he could beat him

Im pretty sure people were saying that the reason the one who waits isnt that big isnt because it was in a trailer but because it was just symbolic of how powerful he is. Kinda like the scene where Tai lung's shadow covers all of the golden valley even though hes not that big he is that imposing symbolically

Yay part two :D

He talked about how the transmog would work on the knight because they don’t share the resistances of the bishops but then he said the eraser wouldn’t work on the lamb because it doesn’t work on bosses in the binding of isaac.

24:24 Lions vs Pokémon arguments in a nutshell, every video or post just tries to screw over Pokémon lore instead of explaining how the lions are actually going to kill Pokémon

Isaac would win against any character on this list. Considering characters get to have all of their items, then Isaac could just do some weird diplopia wild card shit and get every item ever (including revives) times 50. Like dude some runs in repentance just get insane, yes, insane enough to beat death. Maybe if the lamb was just truly invulnerable then isaac couldn't do anything, no mater how powerful he was, but the truth is that the lamb isn't immortal. He could just oneshot the whole island with explosive items like dr fetus, and then the lamb wouldn't have any followers left, or any potential followers in thousands of miles around.

Shade lord actually CANT be effected by transmog. It doesn't work on godlike beings like the bishops, the shade lord is considered a god, and the knight is considered greater to one as he kills the god of nightmares (nightmare king grimm) and the god of light (Absolute radiance) putting him on basically the same level of godhood as the lamb Even IF you say "the gods are different" the transmog dosent even work on thr MINIBOSS. If it cant effect the MINIBOSSES that are just BIGGER ENEMIES? Its not affecting thr shade lord who clearly out scales them

Question: does transmogrification work on formless beings? The shades are technically formeless, so would it even work? (Note: i did not know the existence of that spell in CotL)

A point I want to bring up about the transmogrification argument is that in the lore the knight and all the other vessels are dead, and the transmogrification relic has never been shown to work against dead enemies. If the lamb tries to turn what is essentially a possessed corpse into a living being, how would that that even work? Yes, the lamb can try to bring him back to life using a ritual and then turn him into a critter, but how that would work against void, which was never alive in the first place (He could turn the shell of the knight into a living being, but the shade is what actually matters about the knight, and the shade is void which probably cannot be given life because the lamb has never been shown to turn an inanimate object into something living). Also, a bonus weaker argument, the transmogrification relic doesn't work against the bishops or even the mini bosses, so why would it work against the knight? It's not even like the mini bosses are immune to transmogrification since they only become as powerful as they are because of the bishops turning them into a bestial form (A similar thing could be said about the bishops because they use their follower's faith to transmogrify themselves). Admittedly, this is probably just a gameplay feature, but I thought I should still mention it because it could mean that simply a large enough amount of power is enough to resist getting transmogrified, and the knight is definitely more powerful than the bishops. (Also this isn't related to my above argument at all but during the eraser segment of the video you said that since the eraser doesn't work against Isaac bosses it shouldn't work against cotl gods which seems bit unfair since you also said there was no reason to assume that a god from one franchise has the same resistances to the gods from another franchise which means that there is no reason to assume that the lamb is resistant to the eraser.)

the knight could just dimensional travel to the dream world with the dream nail and BFR the lamb into the dream realm i dont think the lamb has dimensional travel to escape even then knight speedblitzes being a massive lightning timer as well as dodging pure light

you complain that issac cant eat infinite pills because thats just a "gameplay mechanic" but then also go and say that the eraser doesnt erase bosses which is also clealry a gameplay mechanic. Make up your mind on if gameplay mechanics should be counted or not because its clear that issacs wins and you're making excues

Actually, it can be said the the power of transmogrification does exist in hollow night because of the pale king’s transformation from a wyrm into a “being of meager shell”. Does the hollow knight gain this ability of powers relating to transmogrification from being the pale king’s son? No clue. However, I do believe that the Hollow Knight scales below the Pale King when it is in its base form (and hasn’t realized its place as the shade lord which there is no evidence to believe it would realize itself as the shade lord) and does not necessarily gain all of its powers hereditarily because the hollow knight does not inherit the power of creating higher mind because it is heavily implied to have forgotten everything due to not being near the kingdom in the birthplace cutscene. Also, a pale flower, pale much in the same way the pale king is “pale”, was able to destroy the shade lord. I see the radiance, the void, and pale beings as a rock papers shoot where radiance beats pale beings, pale beings beat the void, and the void beats the radiance.

Transmog doesn’t work on the knight. The reason I say this is because the knight is the void. The knight is technically the god of the void, which can take any shape it wishes. The void takes the shape of the siblings, takes the shape of the tendrils, takes the shape of liquid flowing out of the bug’s eyes. Even assuming the knight could be transmogrified into a bug, the knight can just transmog back, as we see instant transmog in the shape of Unn charm.

Something that the comments got wrong about hollow knight is that being a “god” in that universe doesn’t mean you have the same amount of power as absolute radience, for example: the SOUL WARRIOR which is affected by the radience would not have the same resistances as one of the bishops

32:57 It's either an hallucination or purgatory, we see through the game the actual bits and pieces of isaac's past before the basement and nothing indicates anything supernatural or stretch of reality at all. His life was from a supernatural POV, perfectly normal, until he started dying. So, while this isn't a confirmed canon, it's kinda obvious it's the case

So, for point 3, I think they were referring to Guppy's Collar, which has a 50% chance to bring Isaac back every time he dies, but didn't mention the item. Isaac also has the Gnawed Leaf which by standing still makes him immune to all damage except for maybe one instance that he would have to trigger himself if it turned out that him triggering didn't break his immunity (and it would only be in specific scenarios anyways). I don't know how much it helps him, but I think it would. Also, TBOI has items that can cause enemies to turn friendly (permanent charm) or spawn in friendly enemies, and well, one of those items can spawn a friendly boss for a room. Another item, the Friendly Ball whether or not it could turn the enemies friendly would depend on how it interacts with indoctrination, and if the bishops and Narinder are able to be affected by the friend ball... (I know they're bosses, but if it is deemed stronger than indoctrination, there is the chance that someone well argue for it working against them, thus it must be brought up.)

Im say hollow knight maybe can enter the lamb dream if get down, but that not do much at cause best trauma, doubt madness make the lamb weaker, likely just be more aggresive

I really enjoyed the video you made and I'm sorry for some of these counterarguments. I would however like to mention one argument for Shovel Knight (not saying he wins, he'd lose to hax abilities). In Shovel Knight Showdown the Mirror of Fate creates a Pocket Dimension that traps the chatacters inside, seemingly the same size as the continent the game takes place in. In the end of Showdown Shovel Knight (or whoever you play as, but Shovel Knight should still ypscale from the rest of the cast), you destroy the mirror and shatter the pocket dimension. So you could argue continental power for Shovel Knight which would make him one of the stronger characters on the list (the feat is also somewhat backed up by the Tower of Fate collapsing shaking the entire continent as we see the village depicted in the opposite side of the map shaking as it falls). Shovel Knight is still gonna get haxed, but be'll likely be able to outmuacle everyone that comes his way for a good bit until that happens.

Good arguments folks. In the end, this man is dying on his hill that this lamb is a permanent evil that only God himself could possibly delete from existence. I still wonder if a Touhou character could defeat the Lamb. I don't know enough about Touhou lore though to know if that's even possible. And yes, I'm still wondering how well these indie game characters could survive in Gensokyo.

Oh, okay! Sorry my bad, i didn't seen the part that says it's "responding to comments" and though it is the video i was looking for. Thanks for telling it at the start!

With the image showing the shadow of the one who waits, I think that’s less of him being that big, and more that it is a visual representation of him being the force over the cult. Debatable though

Isaac can use Plan C to just kill the whole Island and win for 3 seconds

The eraser CAN delete bosses btw, they just need to be low on health lol. Also it erases every single one of the enemy's it kills, not just in that one dungeon EDIT: The games creators have said so many times that the game is a hallucination, its not a theory and even if they didn't say this, its so obvious, like the game is bashing it over your skull lol

Isaac is a small Christian child willing to make a deal with ACTUAL SATAN for the sake of survival. The Lamb doesn't even need any kind of magical indoctrination to get him in his cult, Isaac would be pretty easy to recruit.

So random ass trailer animations are canon but the things that the creators themselves say are canon aren't because you don't personally like them?

If Isaac were to use the eraser on every single being on the island capable of becoming part of the cult, the Lamb would not be able to get more followers and die within three days, but of course there would still be the question on why Isaac would do that. Also the Eraser can erase Bosses but only if the eraser dealt the finishing blow. But the thing about Isaac is that he wouldn’t be able to use squat from his game. Since in the lore the entire Gameplay is just Isaac‘s imagination, in reality he is just a child, but I get how that would be anticlimactic.

see now the real question is, would meat boy survive? the answer is yes, edmund has confirmed meatboy cannot die