Z-Tuff and CD#1 - The Toughest Knife Steels?

Рет қаралды 8,464

Күн бұрын

New experiments on heat treating of Z-Tuff and CD#1, and a discussion of the properties of these steels and how they compare.
Written version of this information: wp.me/p9J9w4-1PE
Knife Engineering book about steel, heat treating, and geometry: knifesteelnerds.com/2020/07/2...
00:00 Intro
00:33 Z-Tuff vs CD#1
01:09 History and Composition
03:07 Microstructure
03:36 Heat Treating
05:01 Toughness comparison
05:35 CATRA edge retention
06:10 Corrosion Resistance
08:31 Summary
08:50 Patreon Thank You

Пікірлер: 81

@RainyDayForge Жыл бұрын

When I first started watching your videos, I felt like I could understand 10% of what was going on. But, now, I'm a solid 12%. (JK, I understand a lot of it now.) The more I watch and read, the more I understand. Thank you for having written and video content. Thanks Dr.Larrin!

@Si-Al-Ti Жыл бұрын

There’s only audio in the left channel here on my end. Gonna check this one out later when I don’t have to listen through headphones.

@simenstryckers8623 Жыл бұрын

Same here, no audio on the right side.

@blacklion79 Жыл бұрын

Same here, very disconcerting

@diekritischestimme Жыл бұрын

Hello Larrin, I just found your channel today and I am so happy to finally find a youtuber with some REAL expertise on steel. I am a learned material tester (specialized on steel) myself and I get tired of all the subjective "this is the best knife steel" videos with subjective testing methods. I cannot understand how people can draw conclusions about a certain type of steel just from owning one or more knives and then judging the steel's performance without considering if the knife was getting a proper heat treatment etc. Now, while your channel is mostly on the theoretical, scientific side of the field I would like to know what you think about the KZfaqr Joe X who is testing knives until they break and I love how he is abusing the knives to really show people what a knive can take. Now my question: Would you mind checking out his channel and check if his results fit yours? I think this could be a genius combination of scientific knowledge and practical knowledge. Would love to see a reaction video or if you can verify Joe's results - I think this could be interesting to all of us!

@damascusthefox Жыл бұрын

That was very interesting. Do more videos like this, where you talk about one steel and what it has to offer, I really enjoyed this video. Keep up the good work! ^w^

@eddielittleii8919 Жыл бұрын

I'm inching forward in knowledge. Thank you for taking the time.

@GibsonCutlery Жыл бұрын

Fascinating info. That toughness curve is really interesting.

@robertunderdunkterwilliger2290 Жыл бұрын

Fantastic channel! And I will get that book ASAP!

@brysonalden5414 Жыл бұрын

Thanks for sharing this research. You always give me things to think about, which is good!

@tacticalcenter8658 Жыл бұрын

Find someone or a company with an xrf gun. It can scan the composition of it with xrays

@Hungrybird474 Жыл бұрын

Magnacuuuuuut 😊. Good job dude 👏👏👊. This metallurgy is seriously interesting . You know it’s bad when a person buys a specific knife for the blade steel alone . It’s just nice to have . I hope to check out soon .

@bahur47 Жыл бұрын

Awesome video as always

@glockgaston2922 Жыл бұрын

Good video and information thanks for sharing

@blueswan2175 Жыл бұрын

Love the info,steel history is so fascinating- love that Gerber was using Cruwear 50 years ago....I imagine the heat treat may have been beyond the ability of the user to easily sharpen in those days,I have a few old school Gerber blades that are in m2 and they take a nice edge and seem to hold it...thanks for all your hard work and all the folks that collaborate with you to bring the knife community such useful info. 👍👍

@lindboknifeandtool Жыл бұрын

Love those old chrome m2 knives, always on the lookout for them.

@SuperSteelSteve Жыл бұрын

I'm curious as to what you mean by " the heat treat may have been beyond the ability of the user to sharpen "?

@lindboknifeandtool Жыл бұрын

@@SuperSteelSteve maybe lack of diamond abrasives + high hardness id assume

@SuperSteelSteve Жыл бұрын

@Lindbo Knife & Tool That's a big assumption on his part. Do we know what hardness they were running it at? And cruwear is relatively low abrasion resistance, it sharpens very easily on regular ALOX stones you know?. If I had to guess they stopped using it because of cost of manufacturing vs selling cost.

@lindboknifeandtool Жыл бұрын

@@SuperSteelSteve cruwear has relatively low abrasion resistance, relative to steels like s30v, but not relative to common steels of the day. Especially since it was the old non CPM stuff. I’d 100% say it wasn’t easy to sharpen back then. Maybe I’m a shitty sharpener because id classify 62+hrc cruwear as hard to sharpen on alumina, but I just don’t see the point in even doing so. It’s masochistic😂 The gerber m2 knives are run at 62-65, and have a very close composition to cruwear. I know the opinion is that no steel is hard to sharpen, but when I put myself 50 years in the past, I’d hate sharpening those steels on alumina. It would be a diminishing return of performance. I’ve sharpened k390 on alumina, and it took an eternity. My $0.01 adjusted for inflation

@RadDadisRad Жыл бұрын

Love the information

@brandensutton2324 Жыл бұрын

This was a good one

@OUTDOORS55 Жыл бұрын

Would you use the higher recommended temper 990-1000 degrees if you weren't doing cryo?

@cubee2006 Жыл бұрын

I might. Would be better to actually test it.

@krissteel4074 Жыл бұрын

Z-Tuff is one of those steels I'm interested in using, the price is a bit savage though which has turned me off the idea. The Zapp Z-Wear though is something I might dabble in one day Tough knife steels definately have their place though and I've always been very happy with A8-Mod for a good mix of ease of heat treat, toughness and affordability. It also finishes nicely and seems to have enough stain resistance to shrug off a mild amount of humidity.

@bmxriderforlife1234 Жыл бұрын

Try 8670 or 5160 for choppers. It's cheap and comes in decent enough sizes as well. Edge retention and hardness will go down. But for choppers should work.

@acid6urns 7 ай бұрын

z wear is quite literally just cruwear made by a different company, for the record

@Freakmaster480 Жыл бұрын

Interesting steel

@stormiewutzke4190 Жыл бұрын

I don't find toughness to be something I chase that hard with the way I use knives but it does sound like an interesting steel for some things especially if I ever get a chance to start doing swords. I really got onto researching bronzes this winter. I love the different colors one can get off of them as well as the range of properties. With Coppermascus becoming popular I imagine it is a matter of time till people start using bronzes. Is there any chance you might give some advice for best practices when mixing alloys? Are there any bronzes ir other colored metals that might have any use for at least specialty blades of some type. From what I could find there isn't any that would be acceptable by modern standards but it doesn't hurt to ask. It makes amazing looking hardware though. I don't know if you would have any advice about making them. I found it difficult to find quality information about making bronzes especially in a home setup using my heat treating oven.

@Matthew_Jensen Жыл бұрын

Thank you for making this. Out of curiosity, do you know how I would go about testing if a sword is made of the steel advertised?

@KnifeSteelNerds Жыл бұрын

Some places have XRF guns that can measure elements other than carbon

@here_be_dragons9184 Жыл бұрын

Used to work in place where they had laser-induced breakdown spectroscopy machine (LIBS). They used it to analyze steel samples from century old bridges. They are very expensive to buy but cheap to operate. Not sure how good they'd be to study knife steel or what's the market price for a measurement.

@cameronchicken8439 Жыл бұрын

so leaf springs are made out of 9260 and i’ve been seeing a lot of swords out of china made with 9260 and they are apparently really tough but i’ve never seen it make anyone’s list and it is actually an interesting manganese steel that i would like to know more about. it’s not on any american knives but you could have it water jet cut into knives and have the blanks shipped from china fairly cheap so i’m wondering how good of an option it is???

@Odessanightshift Жыл бұрын

Is there a way we could vote on featured steels in these videos? I'm eager to see AEB-L get the deluxe treatment you gave 80CrV2 and the above steels. I'd also enjoy voting on different subject steels as new videos come out. I'm a boring guy and that's my idea of fun. Now I'm off to organize my sock drawer...

@KnifeSteelNerds Жыл бұрын

knifesteelnerds.com/2019/03/04/all-about-aeb-l/

@sjurerikhystad4356 Жыл бұрын

hi, I'm looking for a knife steel that is razor sharp but can withstand cuts into bones, but I want to be able to sharpen the knife in the field, do you have any suggestions? love norway

@adamgal2265 Жыл бұрын

what do you think about k390 ?

@beardedarchery3576 4 ай бұрын

How does 5160 compare to 3V if both are optimized. Making tuff durable outdoor/hunting knifes. Not looking at stainless steels due to fire making

@beardedarchery3576 4 ай бұрын

And 5160 is more cost effective

@SuperSteelSteve Жыл бұрын

During the corrosion resistance test.. Is the 6150 coupon actually 5160.. or a different steel I've just never heard of?

@KnifeSteelNerds Жыл бұрын

6150 is a real steel

@SuperSteelSteve Жыл бұрын

@@KnifeSteelNerds 👍👊 thank you. Wasn't sure if that knife maker shared my dyslexia or I was just ignorant. The latter it is.

@jusme8060 Жыл бұрын

When can I get some apex ultra? How will that compare?

@jusme8060 Жыл бұрын

Finally got some, make sure you have a power hammer, boys. Toughest steel I've had to move under the hammer.

@WinnipegKnightlyArts Жыл бұрын

I love your videos, and your research, I do not love when the video is uploaded in mono.

@saintofchelseathomascarlyl5713 Жыл бұрын

does ztuff have more toughness than 80crv2? how does z-tuff compare with 1095 or 80crv2?

@KnifeSteelNerds Жыл бұрын

Yes, Z-Tuff has higher toughness than 80CrV2 and 1095

@lililililililili8667 3 ай бұрын

Would this steel have a higher yield strength than 301 high yield?

@KnifeSteelNerds 3 ай бұрын

Just about any knife steel can have higher yield strength than 301. Yield strength correlates with hardness. 301 in its “high yield” state is in the low to mid 50s Rc.

@M.A.CDrums Жыл бұрын

What about UHC steel?

@KnifeSteelNerds Жыл бұрын

What about it?

@Daniel66776 Жыл бұрын

why did you record this in mono?

@glodandorin7807 Жыл бұрын

CPM 1V ???

@thetschoni3813 Жыл бұрын

Where can i get this steel in smaller quantitys?

@KnifeSteelNerds Жыл бұрын

Alpha Knife Supply has a few sizes of Z-Tuff and Niagara Specialty Metals has CD#1. Both have online stores.

@thetschoni3813 Жыл бұрын

@@KnifeSteelNerds is there also an European reseller?

@KnifeSteelNerds Жыл бұрын

@@thetschoni3813 GFS supply in Britain

@thetschoni3813 2 ай бұрын

@@KnifeSteelNerds Is there also a source for thicker stock like 1/4” (width minimum :4“ leanth: around minimum 18“ (Doesn’t need to be in Europ). I can find only thin stock.

@here_be_dragons9184 Жыл бұрын

What about S7 or even better S5?

@ArthurHerbst Жыл бұрын

There are Hardness Toughness Curves comparing S7, S5, 3V and 1V in the KSN Article "Silicon Additions for Improving Steel Toughness". But in short: looks like S5 would be at arround 70ft-lbs at 59HRC, but greatly falling off at greater hardness.

@here_be_dragons9184 Жыл бұрын

@@ArthurHerbst not sure if it's a C-notch vs V-notch thing in the article you cited S5 at 59 is a whooping 140ft-lbs and even if it comes crashing after that 60HRC is still 80ft-lbs although it would be easy to miss the mark here. I mean I'd prefer 60+ but 59 is acceptable, even 58 is/used to be the industry's norm.

@ArthurHerbst Жыл бұрын

@@here_be_dragons9184 Dont know if it was notched sharpi test or not (or what form the notch was). Even changing cupon dimensions alters the ft-lbs values afaik. But the relations should be applicable i thought. But i agree with you. S5 seems to be an absolute toughness powerhouse! Question is, how much toughness is enough. There comes the point where you couldnt break the knife even if you tried. But i'd really like to get my hand on some S5 anyways. :)

@bmxriderforlife1234 Жыл бұрын

I kinda wanna experiment with z tuff for a sword. I'm not sure if it'd be as tough as certain other simple steels with a properly optimized heat treatment but the edge retention is better then most sword steels. 8670 or L6 bainite are pretty tough in the hardness levels swords often see. And while longer to heat treat the warping is reduced and at 53 to 55 hrc it should be not too bad speed wise at least in certain steels.

@bmxriderforlife1234 Жыл бұрын

8670 has surprisingly decent rust results from that photo. Did better then I'd have thought given it's fairly similar to L6 which is known to be sensitive to rusting with swords.

@movelikebass 10 ай бұрын

millerbros blades have used z-tuff in their knives & swords (or sword-like knives) & apparently it was as good as one might expect. but they don't seem to be forging anymore.

@bmxriderforlife1234 10 ай бұрын

@movelikebass interesting. Might be due to covid or some other factors. I was specifically thinking of using it for certain types of swords that are fairly prone to damage and rust is a very easy way to damage one beyond usage. But you also want a good sharp edge. Seems like it'd be a good choice.

@chrisjohnson9542 Жыл бұрын

Sorry I have to disagree. It was actually Chrono Cross CD#1

@francesmendenhall189 Жыл бұрын

very expensive and presumably hard to forge-but great stuff otherwise.

@yourperropapi 2 ай бұрын

Everything is fine and dandy with z tuff until 8670 comes in.

@tijlaerts Жыл бұрын

man my right ear is feeling lonely :)

@richardhenry1969 Жыл бұрын

What I get from this. Nothing is new. Everything has been around for 20+ years. Then manufacturers pretend they are using something new. If that doesn’t work they just make up a new name. So basically marketing is more important then RND

@BennyCFD Жыл бұрын

And what does all of this stuff mean other than a talking point to make a KZfaq video with. How does this relate to 99.9% of your average daily knife user.