PianoSens

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@dan_obie 3 күн бұрын

Seems like a fast Fourier Transform that snaps amplitudes to their nearest note frequency. Pretty neat!

@UpdateFreak33 8 күн бұрын

This taught me a lot about overtones lmao

@notrelu 9 күн бұрын

Haven't seen something like this before. Can this be used to turn a normal piano into a MIDI input device?

@PianoSens-ey8jb 9 күн бұрын

I haven't really thought of that, but it's possible! It reads string movement and produces the sound from the strings, which is the input into the soundboard of an acoustic piano.

@fartcheeks2025 12 күн бұрын

cool! 🤭🤭🤭🤭

@fasdm 17 күн бұрын

I think it's a mistake to eliminate the moving indicator (red line in Pianoscope) to get a single reading. I just spent a few hours with Pianoscope to tune my piano. The moving line guides how much adjustment is needed to get close. I found the process of piano tuning is an exercise in getting close. The "Freeze" function of Pianoscope gives the same info as your device and is adjustable through its parameters. 0.1 cents accuracy is not necessary since the people who judge professional tuners' performance accept 0.9 cents as being acceptable (which, had I known this earlier, would have taken hours off my work...piano tuning is a difficult job for people who are nitpickers for pecision.)

@PianoSens-ey8jb 17 күн бұрын

No one recommends 'removing' the moving red indicator. The freeze indicator is a 'target' and the moving red indicator is a guide to use for adjusting the hammer in real time to get you to the freeze target of zero at the last attack.

@Hammondbrass 19 күн бұрын

I recently tuned a grand piano with PianoSens at a church and about halfway through I was told that about 40 violinists needed to use the room to warmup before a recital. I told them, “no problem,” I put on some headphones, and was able to continue to tune normally while the room was filled with the cacophony of 40 students simultaneously playing 😄

@PianoSens-ey8jb 18 күн бұрын

Totally awesome! It is the 'real deal' device. It speaks for itself. I just need to get my customers to tell their peers about it like you are doing! Thanks. I am here to serve, let me know if you ever want help or advice. Best, Steve

@SickNick1998 Ай бұрын

Hi, I wish I could hear some samples of tempered fifths, fourths, sixths or thirds… Maybe a double-octave or a 19th (in middle-section)… I tune by ear a low octave with a 19th and/or double-octave. Infact: I tune with verituner, but not in the lower section. Here: I only compare with overtones, double-octave and 19th. To find the best compromise between thes three components makes my clients happy; they are amazed.

@PianoSens-ey8jb Ай бұрын

When the Pure-12th tuning concept, invented by a German theorist Bernard Stopper, came out, it was a breakthrough. It simplified all aspects of tuning. All we need to do it tune 12th's and everything else falls in line. Kent Swafford, former president of the PTG, wrote many articles on it which can be found on the PTG archives. No more need to do aural tuning (by ear), as a machine tuning that can detect the 12ths is simply the new way.

@SickNick1998 Ай бұрын

@@PianoSens-ey8jb Hello, I know all about Bernhard Stopper (R.I.P.). I know some people who had personal contact with him. And I know about the PTG by Kent Swafford - I use his tunings, too (available for Verituner). But to compare intervals with ear should always a skill - THE skill - in my opinion. And as I wrote: I tune with verituner, because I can use historical temperaments. Only to tune by machine won’t give the deep understanding, why this particular interval sounds like it sounds. Because of a little more stretching in 19th interval (octave+fifth; you write 12th and I know why 😉) 3:1 (octave by Werckmeister was 2:1) there is the result, that the thirds and 10ths are wider in a very minimum way. The masking of beating only works with chords. But how does it sound in e.g. Inventions of Bach which are only in two voices? Once I heard a sample (it is on YT, played by Sokolov), with a very “harsh” sounding 10th. Stopper is not completely beatless, octaves are wider-yes the Pythagorean “Komma” is not in the fifths but splitted in the octaves. There is a saying in Germany: “Jeder Vorteil wird mit einem Nachteil erkauft.“ Translated 1:1: “For every advantage you buy, you will get another disadvantage.” In other words: “No advantage with another disadvantage.” Think, you know what I mean. The disadvantages are-in my opinion-the wider thirds and 10ths. But that is MY opinion. And I think it is okay to tell that. Kent Swafford has a 26th tuning… Also interesting… And that is, what I meant, what I wanted to hear in your vid --- thirds, sixths, 10ths… The octave you’ve showed is absolutely remarkable! The first trust is the app, because of my acute hearing loss 5 years ago (that was the reason to buy Verituner); especially in the high treble I love to use the app - BUT the final control and trust is my ear. And after the acute hearing loss I learned new. And I love to tune by ear. I have built some wood-tools---for the 19th (octave+fifth) and the double-octave. :)

@PianoSens-ey8jb Ай бұрын

@@SickNick1998 Nick, if you really want unreal never-hear-before tuning, use the PianoSens device. I was shocking everyone at the convention last week with it. My users are all saying they are getting tunings they didn't think possible before. PianoSens.com

@rickclark1372 Ай бұрын

Those are top grade mics placed in good positions. Imagine how much wilder the deviations would be where ETD mics end up getting positioned for a tuning- which is to say for good line-of-sight between the tuner and the screen, not good audio. Not to mention whatever weird characteristics cheap built-in device mics have.

@rickclark1372 Ай бұрын

Great work! My whole life I have tuned on the sustain tail, whether by ear or ETD, because that was really the only way we could tune. I look forward to using a new method snap-shotting the pitch a fraction of a second in as suggested by your work and hearing the aesthetic result as music is played. The idea of tuning to a better standard than has ever been possible before in history is very exciting.

@davidgarnett5011 Ай бұрын

With this device would you tune A0 to 27.5 htz? how does this compensate for the idea of stretching octaves at the upper and lower ends of the keyboard

@PianoSens-ey8jb Ай бұрын

The device is best thought of as a super microphone that does not hear acoustic waves but reads string movement at the source instead. It has a frequency response from 0 Hz to 22 kHz. It has no problem reading 27.5 Hz. Your ETD software would determine how to interpret your tuning overall. The device has no bias of frequency.

@barrybraksick5504 2 ай бұрын

Hi Steven, saw your pianoworld post. Very interesting comparison. There is a technique called the "phase vocoder" that builds on the STFT which can produce the kind of frequency and amplitude analysis you're talking about here. I first encountered it many ears ago in the book "Digital Audio Signal Processing: An Anthology" by John Strawn, but I'm sure there are other explainers online now.

@PianoSens-ey8jb 2 ай бұрын

I am familiar with the phase vocoder. I use a different approach to get ultra fine grain frequency estimate between FFT bins that is better in this application. Thanks for the reference.

@lingerlights 2 ай бұрын

Interesting

@8891randy 2 ай бұрын

You have to watch this several times. It’s the best explanation of why we need to tune unisons as perfectly as possible- how it affects the tone. The second example in the video has a sound that would make me think the string wasn’t seated properly or the hammer needs to be filed. But that’s not it - it’s the response of the partials behaving from the result of a less than perfect unison. The kind of unison you would get when tuning by ear.

@rickclark1372 2 ай бұрын

This is outstanding work. The most comprehensive objectively measured description of what is happening with pitch following the note strike that has ever been published/reported I believe.

@Hammondbrass 3 ай бұрын

What tuning curve do you use in Pianoscope?

@PianoSens-ey8jb 2 ай бұрын

I am using the 12ths curve.

@maxrey4055 4 ай бұрын

Just curious why you set all octaves at 200ms instead of using he default setting for freeze that ranges from 500 -300?

@PianoSens-ey8jb 4 ай бұрын

I am the inventor and researcher for the Freeze. I personally believe all notes should be the same freeze setting. 700 msec is my recommendation.

@ivankonyukhov549 4 ай бұрын

Perhaps the sensor is insensitive to the movements of the string in the plane of the soundboard, and therefore it does not detect the beats arising from the vertical and horizontal modes of the string vibration. If the beats do occur between the soundboard's natural frequency, then 3bps must be present on all 3 strings of the choir

@PianoSens-ey8jb 2 ай бұрын

If I lay the sensor 90-deg on its side it still picks up less of the false beat. The acoustic false beat can occur from undamped strings, for example.

@ivankonyukhov549 4 ай бұрын

The first partial in the vibrations of the string is present and lasts for a very long time. But it is poorly radiated by the soundboard due to the high impedance of the soundboard and due to the acoustic short circuit (in far acoustic field). Human ear is significantly less sensitive to low frequencies. Therefore, the fundamental tone goes below the hearing threshold and is masked by overtones. Also, the fundamental tones in the strings of the lower octave do not participate in interval beating(octaves,5ths, etc) and therefore fundamental tones of A0...G#1 are not important for tuning

@PianoSens-ey8jb 2 ай бұрын

I did not say the fundamental is 'important' for tuning. I simply say that the fundamental IS present in the string.

@hoilst265 4 ай бұрын

Subtitles: tap-tap-tap-tap-tap-tap

@ElikemTheTuner 4 ай бұрын

Lovely. Would've liked to hear what it sounded like both before and after. Can you make another video?

@PianoSens-ey8jb 2 ай бұрын

Slightly less of a 'ping' on the attack, a bit softer.

@saveriosalerno9232 4 ай бұрын

Thanks!

@rogershaffer1 4 ай бұрын

It's really too bad there are less than a handful of truly knowledgeable piano techs in the entire country. Fortunately there are a few. You absolutely are one of them.

@NSResponder 4 ай бұрын

Just a suggestion: don't bother with trying to support Android. At my last gig, we were making a specialized camera that supported both iOS and Android, and Android sunk easily 3x the engineering effort for about 1/4 of the revenue.

@737milehigh 2 ай бұрын

Same experience.

@rickclark1372 5 ай бұрын

As good as the best concert quality tunings I have ever heard. Oh, yeah, great playing too.

@paulmccloud 5 ай бұрын

Amazing how clear each note is. Each unison (all 3 strings played together) is beatless, in perfect tune. Nice!

@paulmccloud 5 ай бұрын

The clarity of this tuning is just amazing. I've been tuning 36 years, and I could not do this, by ear or otherwise. It doesn't hurt that the piano is amazing, but the clean sound of the Fazioli makes it hard to hide any imperfection in the tuning.

@Gavinbrady-Pianist 5 ай бұрын

Which tuning app did you use?

@PianoSens-ey8jb 5 ай бұрын

Pianoscope, and with my PianoSens sensor

@rickclark1372 5 ай бұрын

The tuning sounds amazing. I don't think I have ever heard better. And of course it's a fabulous piano as well. And played well. What a combination!

@PianoSens-ey8jb 5 ай бұрын

Thank you very much, Rick!

@rickclark1372 5 ай бұрын

It's the latest Verituner for Android, on Android 12, on a 2023 Moto G Play using a cable that came bundled with the PianoSens package.

@user-mi8xi1nw1z 5 ай бұрын

TUNIC only:pure try this

@PianoSens-ey8jb 5 ай бұрын

I am familiar with Bernhard Stopper's approach; there are better tools now.

@user-mi8xi1nw1z 5 ай бұрын

Can you demonstrate it😃@@PianoSens-ey8jb

@musicus7781 5 ай бұрын

Interesting Experiment! Can you specify the settings a bit more regarding: - used microphones and orientation(especially important IMO is off-axis-performance/ coloring - Schoeps has demonstrated this quite nicely) - distance (maybe it would be better to measure at various listener positions several meters away) - which "very sophisticated sprectal resolution techniques" were used in Matlab - at which point of the played note did you capture the soundfile (attack included? length?)

@PianoSens-ey8jb 5 ай бұрын

It has nothing to do with mics. It has everything to do with dual modes of resonance and how these modes are resonated on the soundboard and where these resonance spots are on the soundboard, and that is why the sensor is the solution, bypassing the soundboard.

@celiaschwartz3041 6 ай бұрын

Are you marketing this somewhere?

@PianoSens-ey8jb 6 ай бұрын

PianoSens.com

@celiaschwartz3041 6 ай бұрын

My iPhone only has a port for charging I don’t see one for USB. How would that work?

@hayforker 7 ай бұрын

Who tunes with a Reattack rate that fast? Most beginning tuners make the mistake of reattack rates much too slow.

@ElikemTheTuner 7 ай бұрын

Intriguing.

@ElikemTheTuner 7 ай бұрын

@@PianoSens-ey8jb I would love to. Is it possible to use the device for uprights? How will it be attached to the strings?

@paulmccloud 7 ай бұрын

This is important information for those of us who use ETD's to professionally tune pianos. I was not aware that the microphone in my iPhone was introducing errors into the calculation of my ETD. It's not intuitive, because when we make a recording, it sounds good. So then, what could be wrong with using a microphone in the phone, or any external mic? It turns out, there IS a problem. That's because the microphone picks up all kinds of other sounds that are not relevant to tuning a piano, and there are patterns of wave interferences that are invisible to us that the mic responds to. That affects the relative strengths of the overtones in the sound envelope sampled through the mic. The ETD then interpolates those overtones and calculates the frequency target. But if the overtones are mixed in with these acoustic anomalies, the result is that the target frequency is off. When using the Pianosens, all of the impertinent sound vibrations are eliminated, and only the vibration of the string is used for calculation. The result is much more accurate, which means your tunings become better when using your ETD. This mic discrepancy is the reason that the tuner-technician must check the final result to verify if the tuning is as accurate as we expect from our ETD's. Thanks, Steve.

@user-mi8xi1nw1z 7 ай бұрын

hi What software is used for measurement in the video?

@PianoSens-ey8jb 7 ай бұрын

Matlab (Mathworks.com)

@resound7 7 ай бұрын

This is fascinating. As a guitar player, I get the tuning peculiarities factoring the acoustical nature of tuning. As a recording engineer I wonder how your device would “translate” in a recording. Maybe I’ve missed something along the way…

@smbrooksus 7 ай бұрын

Are you actually selling these devices? Planning to? I'm interested but need to know how to accomplish buying one.

@PianoDoctor57 7 ай бұрын

Paul, Yes, I suspect that is the case. Considering the fact that a soundboard panel (not installed in the case) typically will vibrate actively at no lower than about 49hz (roughly an octave above A0), and when installed in the piano case that base frequency (unloaded) jumps up to nearly 60hz generally speaking. So except in the case of an extremely large instrument, the ability to reproduce those low fundamentals should be quite impossible. Or if able to, quite inaudible to our ears or microphones. Therefore our brain "fills in" the missing stuff and we "hear" those low frequencies. Even though (at this time) I am a dedicated analog/aural tuner, I have long suspected that acoustic anomalies including absence of various partials in certain notes has an adverse effect on my ability to tune some notes accurately. My proof of this is when I can't hear the 6:3 octave partials clearly (down low) and I try to "ghost" it and it's not there. One note above it's fine, but on this note it's gone. I have to use another interval or "fake it" to the best of my ability. I'm looking forward to trying this thing out. When Steve told me it has a headphone jack that sealed the deal for me. I see this as an innovation with numerous potentials. Peter Grey Piano Doctor

@paulmccloud 7 ай бұрын

This also proves that there IS a fundamental of the note, not that it is absent. This is a misconception that there is no fundamental in the lower bass notes. The piano may not be able to respond to the string movement due to the design, and thus not create the fundamental frequency into sound.

@Jwellsuhhuh 7 ай бұрын

The fundamental isn’t audible but yeah it’s always there in some extent.

@PianoSens-ey8jb 7 ай бұрын

On a great concert grand, the fundamental is about 9 dB down in the lowest notes, and that is VERY audible. My research and measurements prove that and there is an unfortunate 'myth' of the so-called missing fundamental. I have shaken up people with my measurements and results. It's hard to change people's opinions even with the measurements and proof.

@PianoSens-ey8jb 7 ай бұрын

It is extremely apparent in the time domain view as the periodicity occurs and is very easy to see, the periods are the fundamental. So, the 'missing fundamental' is a myth propagated by people who are not signal processing engineers and who have not done their homework and not done careful measurement experiments on a large concert grand. I have a whole slide set on this subject. Everyone is simply 'wrong' who have not studied it as I have. Sadly.@@Jwellsuhhuh

@Jwellsuhhuh 7 ай бұрын

I understand, but what I mean is that missing fundamental is still a concept applicable to synthesized sounds, despite obviously not applying to the vast majority of acoustic signals like pianos. Also keep in mind that everyone has differing perspectives on the matter that are all equally relevant and appropriate. Most people tend to prioritize what their own ears hear, despite them being very inconsistent and variable from person to person. Because what the ear hears is arguably what's most important. Yes the measurements can tell you a whole different story but its hard to generalize those uncompensated findings to the unpredictable world of human hearing.@@PianoSens-ey8jb

@jonaskjlstad3118 7 ай бұрын

Hi want to buy but your website is not working. How can i contact you?

@jonaskjlstad3118 8 ай бұрын

Hi! Want to buy you website dosent work, can I contact you someway?

@justaviewer111 8 ай бұрын

Will it work with Verituner?

@PianoSens-ey8jb 8 ай бұрын

It should. I checked with Dave Carpenter and Verituner will recognize a USB interface like this.

@MarkLarin 8 ай бұрын

How is Pianosens different from the Freeze feature that is built into Pianoscope which (also?) shows a frozen moment in time after the strike of a hammer. It also has an indicator that reflects the rest of the sound coming from the string, which drops in pitch as time moves forward. Is Pianosens just capturing a similar (frozen) moment in time or is it doing something other? Thanks.

@PianoSens-ey8jb 8 ай бұрын

PianoSens replaces the mic. It solves what I believe to be the biggest variance and inaccuracy: Acoustic jitter and interference. The sensor only looks at the movement of the string and does not 'hear' acoustically. The result is a very steady indicator in the app.

@AspartameBoy 8 ай бұрын

This would be a good tool for tuning period specific tuning systems for classical music

@PianoSens-ey8jb 8 ай бұрын

It is the most accurate way of tuning that is known to me for any temperament you desire.

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