It's obvious you've never seen a LBS's Financials. I look at margins all the time in the shop I work, the owner of my shop is not getting wealthy off it. It's all great getting the best deals online and undercutting shops until all the one that provide quality work are gone. Good luck with that.

@@vashusan1984 like i said....it is a hobby not a business. bicycles are not cars or furnaces or refrigerators. they are non essential.

@@kursk88-k1t So we should just bail on the industry and not care about it's future. Good idea man. We probably shouldn't maintain trails or support laws that protect cyclists or join advocacy groups, cause you know, it's just a hobby and that would be a lot of work for something that really doesn't matter.

@@vashusan1984 who is we? and where did i say anyone should be "bailed out"? i was against the GM bailout. my point was that an internal combustion engine is how all that amazon gets to your front door,

@@kursk88-k1t I did not suggest 'bailing out' the bike industry. I said bail on...maybe you missed the nuance, but it's very important to my rebuttal of your point that due to bikes being a hobby we shouldn't care what happens to local bike shops on a fiscal level. R/whoosh

@@douglascegelis190 he just starts to go into how they have 91 partner level stores and it gets into the dealer commitment stuff which is interesting and worth checking out the full video from linked on the community tab on our account page.

kzfaq.info/get/bejne/ncl2i9xkq-C8kn0.htmlsi=YJ17iEK1wS5pV00G

@@MTBShed What I don't like is that Giant apparently requires that something like 80% of new bikes in a shop be Giant, or similar. Al these big bike companies are eating the industry from within

Yes, both are 22mm lugs. Instinct 2X steps into the larger 26mm strap size

I forgot about that, thanks for adding info! Lost my smell after a bad crash that broke my skull.

Warranty for everything except the frame goes through the individual manafacturers. For instance, Shimano brakes on a Trek bike would be warrantied with Shimano not through Trek. Find a local bike shop, independently owned and find out what options they have available. Even if they sell Trek they likely have a second brand they are familiar with. The advantage to that over online is the shop will be aware of known issues if they arise and will have faster access to repair parts if needed. Along those lines I will issue a word of warning you are already considering. eMTBs require a considerable amount of care over a standard MTB. This is why I typically do not recommend them except for specific circumstances. Your chain will wear out faster as will your cassette and chain ring, you will burn through brakes faster and need them bled sooner, suspension and pivots need maintained sooner etc etc. The additional weight and your ability to ride further and faster, speed up the need for this maintenance. ebike are more difficult to work on than a standard bike due to the weight, cable routing, and other factors not involved with a standard bike. You are 100% right on wanting to find a local shop to help as the build will only be the beginning. I love MTBs, I love electric powered skateboards, I love my motorcycle. The combo sounds great w an eMTB but after 6 months of owning an eMTB it was clear that wasn’t the best option for the above stated reason. I’ve also found it ruined a lot of the fun of riding for me. How fun is something if you can just show up and do it first time. Why go back. The love of MTB comes from the overcoming of challenges, completing trails you once couldn’t. Yes downhills are fun but the true enjoyment of MTB comes from your failures.

Enjoyed the episode. Good to see more regular people with real shop experience talking openly. Sounds like a good excuse to get back to Denver at some point!

People bring up a good point having repairs as a secondary business but bike repairs requires a large investment in tools and parts on hand. But I think you are on the right track, bicycle repair being a secondary function is most likely what we will see after a few years. Great point!

Ya, Barnetts Bicycle Institute closed its doors last year just leaving UBI for formal bicycle mechanic training. Now Barnetts had other issues but it still stands to the state of the industry. I just don’t see the knee crop of mechanics coming in, the money isn’t there for them to develop the experience.

Buy a downloadable book on wheel building. Watch a few videos and have a go. I build all my own wheels now and it is very satisfying. Just be patient and double check on your first builds.

@@johnlesoudeur3653 Definitely the most underrated skill for a mountain biker 🤣 that said most people can’t figure out how to put a fork on the right direction lol

@@davyalves3602 I obviously don’t know them but what did you expect the answer to be. They arent setting the prices and after employees, rent, marketing, tools, and after care the shops are walking away with about $50 (starts at $300 if sold at full retail) in their pocket from a $1000 bike sale. Also remember these guys are in the shop everyday. They are getting that same question non stop. What are they suppose to do? They deal with the problems and unhappy customers that end up with the sun 1k bikes because they realize they need tubeless or tapered headtube or 1x or in Treks case routing for a dropper. When shops disapppear, bikes and associated parts will get more expensive due to a shrinking overall industry size.

Keep in mind, I opened my shop originally because I didn’t like how I was treated in shop. Literally was reason one. So I get that but as I spent more time running my shop I soon found out why shops got that way. I’ve had a lot of physically and mentally draining jobs in my life and I can tell you running the bike shop topped them all combine for both good and bad. Those guys are passionate. It’s their life, their sole focus. It can get disheartening over time dealing with the same confusion from customers who expect far more than they are willing to pay for. Tell any normal person, a yearly bike tune up is $120 and they will say you’re crazy. Instead they will just let their bike collect dust in the garage and stop riding.

My concern was about the future of cycling. As a cyclist and passionate for the sport, I didn’t feel the answer was right. The person starting in the sport needs attention and love the same way I got when I started long time ago. Believe me this person do not need your sympathy, he’s loaded. I don’t need your sympathy either, I’m on the higher end of the spectrum and even though I don’t need any help to buy a new bike I do enjoy going to bike shops to buy some bits and bobs. In reality, people won’t spend more to happy a crap service and the bike shop will have to reinvent themselves.

@@BlackMan614 Ya, Trek started the click and collect program a while back. You buy online and the dealer you pick for delivery gets a 30% commission. We didn’t see much success with this but we found dealers would use this to get bikes if their account was past due with them. To give background, Trek made dealers take bikes from backorders as they randomly showed up on any given week. You had until end of week to take the bike or they cancelled it and you were back at the end of the line again which they said was 3yrs out. These bikes were off large orders that should have gotten 150-180 terms for the dealer. But since only one bike showed up then the dealers got smaller terms like 30 days to pay for the random showing up bikes. This caused many shops to become past due on their accounts since invoices stopped rolling. This happened with us and after 30 days they would have us pay 1 to 1 to get bikes. Pay off your old invoice and they add the new invoice on the other side. Once dealers got past 60 or 90 days they’d stop sending bikes at all. We were told by other dealers to just go on the site as a consumer and order the bike. We would get the 30% commission as a credit to come off our balance. The problem here is instead of the shop get the full amount of bike to pay off arrears and rotate those invoice, it was only the 30% going towards it. Plus Trek was charging those brands a finance charge every month for the past due. It’s was a pretty unfair system but it’s what trek forced many dealers into the past couple years and it why you saw dealers utilizing that system. But Trek of course doesn’t listen to their dealers so I’m they saw those “increased online sales” they failed to comprehend why they were happening.

@@MTBShed Sad state of affairs, for sure. No wonder lbs in large cities and popular mtb destinations charge so much for general maintenance. And the bikes are getting more complicated - not less.

@@azdbuk You’re not wrong. Even when I got in 7 years ago before all this, everyone knew a bike shop was a terrible financial and business decision….youd have to be insane to get into it now unless your willing to give up your trust fund.

Sorry, was a rush job. Top priority for next video is perfect audio!

@Orney I hate to see the disregard people have for what these big companies are doing. So much hatred toward bike shops. Ugh if these people had any idea what it takes to run shops and how impossible brands have made that job. It’s sad people don’t understand the value. I mean I’m fine, I can work on my bikes, I got trails I can ride today, I don’t need a shop to support me either. I don’t race or need them. But I made this video for the same reason I opened my shop originally to grow and give back to the sport that gave so much to me. To see so many people only worried about themselves is why we are here I suppose. LBS can’t compete online with Amazon or the back door factory deals of large online retailers. Rentals are great in cycling hubs but who rents a bike in a regular town. The service only model doesn’t make financial sense unless it’s just a dude in his garage under the table.

@MTBShed you're right I wish there was an easy way to end this problem and get cycling out of this funk.

From a mechanic stand point, the mobile things makes little sense outside of big cities. Bike shops aren’t setting prices, manufacturers do and come after brick and mortar if we sell under MAP while online retailers somehow get away with it. Big part of why we left is manufacturers stopped enforcing MAP and were selling products on their own site cheaper to consumers then we could buy from them as dealers. I don’t know the folks at your local shop but it’s fairly unlikely a retailer marked product up higher than the set price when it came in. We all operate from a couple different POS systems and the same few suppliers and prices are set when we check their product in. It’s the online retailers undercutting retailers and devaluing product that leads to the feelings you’re dealing with. People seem to have lost the understanding of how spending your mo eh locally returns a larger investment for you long term then sending it off online.

@@MTBShed I think you’re right when it comes to prices for goods, but not for services. The bike shop after online shopping and quick ground shipping came into place had no reason to sell product, it’s just as convenient to buy online than it is at the store. They could have survived by selling bike repair services and relying on high quality customer service to keep customers coming in the door, maybe even when they want a new bike. Instead this is where they cut corners. They didn’t step up and sell a good service when that was their only reason to exist.

@@snowman5980 That reminds me of the whole learn to code thing and it’s quite dismissive of the passionate folks running bike shops for their communities. We definitely tried to offer the best customer service above and behind. It’s why customer would spend hours in shop hanging with us and why most shops have beer in the fridge for customers. The problem is staffing people able to do that. Tell me somebody that rides serious that could afford to work retail. $15 or $20 only kids you kids at best who show up when they want. What you are left with is overworked and stressed shop owners doing their best to keep the doors open while they compete with their own manufacturers that give them less benefits then consumers. Second the service only model will never work outside of large cycling hubs. Look at how much car repair places charge per hour, the cost of repairs there, and literally everyone has to drive a car. Biking is a hobby for majority of people in the US and they simply won’t pay those rates or need the service as often. One man garage shops might be able to make enough money to survive on but what other industry operates that way. If you take rent of a commercial space, employees and associated taxes and costs, no profit on parts anymore, and a bunch of other things then a shop would need 2 mechanic doing 8 tune ups a day everyday of the year for the numbers to work out. Then you have to figure out profit to eat.

People also say, embrace eBikes. Well the majority of those sold are cheap online hub bikes with dangerously inferior components like brakes. It’s why RAD was sued or all the talk about fires. These price conscience customers again don’t want to pay the extra labor rates becuase a rear hub with a flat tire takes 4x longer to change then a typical. Plus the added weight stresses racks, stands, and mechanics backs all costing more money to the shop and slowing productively further increasing cost to service them. That is why most shops refuse hub e-bikes not becuase they are snobs.

@@MTBShed my statement of “didn’t evolve” I think still stands true to your point. You can’t rent a commercial space and pay kids $20 an hour to work on bikes. I own a modern hardtail I paid 3 grand for it, if I’m bringing it into a shop I want to be confident in the work being done, if I’m not I may as well do it myself, I sure won’t be confident handing my bike to a high schooler. Need to cater to the high end of the marketplace, it’s hard today to find a shop that’ll rebuild an air fork, this is insane! The people who can afford to pay you don’t trust you, that’s your problem not the dealers cutting out a middle man problem.

Fair point 😂 those are kind of two different points I was trying to make. First is supporting shops through the Covid recovery by buying in stock items especially with many items still out of stock. Ideally, your independent dealer is stocking parts they believe in and brought in for that region. I would never recommend my customer have bought the wrong item just because we had it but very often it’s because the color is wrong or there’s a deal going online kind of stuff. Trek Corporate stores only sell their own brands so that’s more of what I was referring to. Those products aren’t there because they are the best they are there because Trek owns said companies. Nobody gets into the bike industry expecting to get rich. They are trying to serve their communities and grow a sport they are passionate about. They see what’s good and what’s bad everyday in shop. That community building has a value and the general population seems to have dismissed that. The unfortunate part is by the time it plays out and their impact is lost, it’ll be too late to bring them back.

Ya, the fact there is a Trek shop in just about every town was a big part of our sales pitch for them. Not that corporate stores are the greatest but with so many different standards it’s more likely to find that brand specific or weird standard in a shop that carries them…I mean hangers unnecessary fell into that category for so long and hopefully that’s changing. It’s hard to find a brand nowadays that didn’t go the profits over community route. We ended up picking up Jamis Bikes toward the end. They are indeed a family owned company that seems to stay a bit in their means so they don’t force themselves into decisions like Trek that hurt industry.

@MTBShed leaning towards a Knolly a Rocky, DaVinci or Pivot. Hopefully the big 3 die. I have a 2012 Stumpy that I love but can't get a shock for because of Specialized propreitay shit. Good luck

Most bike companies have rolling changes to build kits and it’s typically written in the fine print of each model. Not sure what extras come with a bike that are of any value, maybe they keep the reflectors that nobody wants anyway…

@@brookscurran the blank frame plugs for axs, sometimes they throw in shock pumps and other accessories for different set ups on the bike. When I bought a sworks levo frame set it came with a bunch of this stuff I'm mentioning, stuff that if you wind up needing later the company charged 20 dollars for that frame plug or whatever was supposed to be included. It's a real thing ppl should know about it.

I’ve never heard of a shop swapping parts on a bike devaluing them before sale. We use to do it with SX bikes and upgrade them to NX because SX is junk and just caused us more headaches. We saw brands shipping bikes a lot during Covid with diff specs then their site which as mentioned before is in the fine print on their sites. Biggest one I remember is our Marin SQ3 had Magic Mary’s a good tire then they started shipping them w junk VeeTire and that was not cool. Vary by brand but all the major brands we got bikes from Trek, Marin, and the like didn’t come with anything except a generic manual w no useful info, reflectors, and for a while bells. Intense and higher end models of the aforementioned brands did have little kits and we always passed that along to the customer. Intense had a shock pump and toolkit which was really sweet. But usually it’s just a couple of valve stems and a junky sealant (we would just use good stuff from the shop instead). We also never charged customers for plugs or small parts from our bin that were “extras”. The only time we would charge if we had to order it which means it didn’t come from a build. I’ve dealt with a lot of bike shop employees and owners. I’ve yet to come across any that seemed like they were doing shady practices. I mean there’s of course the exceptions but I’ve not seen this as a big problem. Is the shop your referring to a road centric shop? I have found those guys to be a bit more squirrelly lol

@@MTBShed I purchased my first ebike a fuel exe when they very first came out. I wasn't too aware of bikes and parts at that time. So I saw the bike in a shop, a trek dealer shop and took it for a test ride and was amazed with it and wanted it. But I went home and thought it over. After looking at the different builds online at home I started thinking the same model I test rode that they wanted to sell me for MSRP looked different parts wise. So long story short I went back and asked the guy if there's a discount on the bike or it's full price?? He asked me why?? I then very nicely pointed out that they had switched out the wheel set to a cheap entry level bontranger or whatever the house brand is called with a Shimano hg hub and sunrace cassette. He then realized someone was paying attention and he offered a discount on the bike. I asked if the parts that came with the bike were available and he didn't know. He wound up giving me a 400 dollar discount which I was ok with. Since I wanted to put some i9's on it 😁 But I wonderd how many other people that don't know much about bikes has gotten duped like that it left me feeling kind of weird about the whole thing that that was a "thing". So yea it sad but it happens. I have other stories about other bike shops I have went to, with things I've noticed. So that's why I think a direct to consumer model is a great idea to lower costs hopefully to the consumer, and not have to worry about quality of service that a brand might have no idea of these things that go on when no one is looking... Just my 2 cents.

You’re right, I know nothing about skate shops except they are gone and we’re gone before it was relevant to me. But I’d love to hear the background. What is CCS?

@@MTBShed they aren’t gone. It’s true lots of skate shops have gone out of business since direct to consumer options have become available but that’s what I mean about ccs. They were basically a monthly catalog of skateboarding products, shipped straight to your home. And they were doing that since the early 2000’s. My hometown has the same 2 core skate shops we have had for the last 15 years despite having to compete with multiple Zumiez and vans stores.

@@Kungfukenny369thanks, and ya I almost added except in certain markets which will be the same for MTB. STL doesn’t have a skate shop and we are a biggish city. Those community hubs are gone in most cities across the country. Interesting to learn of the pre internet catalogues. Oh the 1900s were a different time lol

One watch, and one fitness tracker 😂

Box stores typically don’t carry premium products. Look at the bike isle at Walmart who has invested 100s of millions into mountain biking. They don’t have staff with the specialized knowledge. That said REI invests a bit more in their “bike shop” so that could be one of the few that are able to fill the void left by your LBS. I go back to the pen analogy. We lost many of the small stationary shops. Office Depot/Max carry some pens some in the mid tier but none of the nice cool stuff and they sell mostly the cheap pens that don’t require specialized knowledge.

@@MTBShed I don't miss specialized pens. I've used Bic pens my entire life and Pentel pencils. Chances are I will miss the local bike shops little. Electric bikes could save the day for local bike shops as well as repair for bicycles which increasingly use more specialized parts. (Not the brand) Thanks for responding.

@@daniellarson3068nobody misses pens except me and a few other weirdos 😂 but MTB is pretty niche too. I haven’t bought into this eBike hype thing. In Europe they do far better but my assumption is because more people use bikes to commute over there? I just don’t see it happening here in the US. Most cities don’t have the infrastructure to make them commuters. Care/maintenance of the batteries alone will deter most consumers, cost, and I just don’t see e-bikers sticking with the sport. The only folks that ever came in for e-bikes in my shop were 70yr olds looking for a cheap ebike that was too heavy for them to transport.

I’d argue bike shops provide more high quality customer service than any other business. Nothing can be sold in a shop without consultation of the product. People spend hours in bike shops just talking bikes and hanging out. That said the experience has gotten more difficult. Bikes and parts are still out of stock making it hard to consult with customers. Having to buy our parts off Amazon or eBay the last few months because our suppliers were sold out was another big factor into us closing up. That really made proper customer service difficult. Also, there is a shrinking amount of employees available with the specialized knowledge needed to work at a bike shop or even any help in general. More and more you are seeing the owners in shops all day everyday while attempting to navigate their businesses through uncharted territories.

Technically, they have the 30% margins from the shops they could cut off the consumer price. But they need to cut the remaining dealers out to do that.

Ya, that’s the same time they decided to not renew our dealer agreement and demanded full payment of our line of credit. They refused any settlement offers as a large chunk was “finance charges”. My lawyer was bewildered as is anyone outside that attempts to comprehend how this industry functions 🥴

You make a ton of valid points. A big part of not deciding to keep the shop going were the things you brought up. It was hard to find and keep qualified personnel that are educated on the product. That said, an experienced mechanic has an attention to detail you can’t get from a KZfaq video but they are few and far between nowadays. Mountain bikers should really be doing maintenance on their bikes between rides and should only need the shop for overhauls or catastrophies. I’ve never understood the bike industry pushing shops toward a service based biz for that reason.

The need for bike shops is when you can’t figure something out, or need a tool to borrow, and they throw it in the stand and your back on your way to the trail. It’s the conversations and advice to help you find the right fit and product for you, it’s the investment in inventory so you can see or try something on. It’s all about keeping your money invested in your local community on a more basic sense. And the reinvestment business make to improve your community with those dollars.

Disc brake setup and bleeds are about as complex as anything gets now. I'd say that and maybe bottom bracket replacement. But with the new threaded standards, that is way easier than the old press-fit bottom brackets that you had to hammer out. Only other issue for a "home mechanic" is cable routing. But they have lots of tools for that now. It's all about having the correct tools.

@@mikew466well sram solved that problem too with mineral oil options 😂 wheel builds also difficult. Wheel truing alone takes a considerable amount of practice. It’s the lower end, entry level bikes, with mechanical brakes, 3x9s, and the other junk that need adjustment. The new people never become “cyclist” because the bike starts acting up, maybe they don’t even know it persay, but it makes the experience crap and the bike sits in their garage. The enthusiast is fine for a bit but when the shops disappear so does new growth of the sport, shrinking dollars, limiting options for enthusiasts and keeping prices high long term.

You go to bike shops that pay their crew minimum wage? Seems like you make bad decisions, friend. You want a quality tech, you have to pay for quality work. That "real job" comment is pretty telling as far as how you view bike shop employees, though. You should reflect on that a bit.

@@IKnowAGuyBicycles Thanks. First thing I did was look for your video when I found out 🤣 look forward to hearing your upcoming breakdown as one of the only honest voices out there. It was fun to setup (poorly) and record again. Still processing it all but I’ll be back at some point soon.

@@MTBShed I would have sooner, but I am on holiday and enjoying a much-needed break. I am going to review a few of the voices/videos and give an overview of the current reactions, including yours and others. By doing it live, we'll see what kind of interaction I receive. If you ever want to do a podcast, please feel free to let me know. Love to hear about your journey having a shop and where you are headed. You can take us out of the bike shop, but never the shop life out of us.

Not sure what happened. It was a last second recording and I didn’t get to listen before uploading :/ Hope to have more content coming soon.

Oh and I plan to start making shirts and hats. I’ll be asking for ideas soon!

It has been corrected for future videos. Thank you for the heads up!

Best trail in STL!

Great bike. Charges forward and can handle your typical trails with ease. You’ll reach the end of your travel with more aggressive enduro riding but plenty capable up until that point to keep the bike stable.

around $150 in a bike shop….sure you can find them closer to $100 if you dig under enough rocks though 😂 and for that you can prob pick up a Fox Transfer External Routing for the same in 2024. Easy install.

Ya, seems the controller was an afterthought. We broke the first one because of the positioning with the stock dropper.

That’s what those who love them claim. Idk 🤷🏻

Great helmet. Lifetime crash replacement is a nice bonus as well. It can be so hard to get kids to where a full face and they need it!

I recommend shorter rides in that case 🤣 or BN3TH chamois :)

Just showing how the Kali Octane looks since you won’t find it in a store anywhere. It’s such an insane lid and nobody knows about it. Great Kali tech, super aero, quiet, and only 1300 grams 😮 at the time I didn’t have any other way to record myself 😂

Goal is for the saddle to only contact you directly in your sit bones. If it’s too big it can apply pressure elsewhere. Really got to just try them at a local shop since everyone is built so different.

Good choice!