But why would I have to do that if there is a much simpler and direct way that does not have the risk of "getting stuck" on fine pleasures? I think we agree that the goal of the meditative practice is liberation through the removal of craving, right? To remove craving, I can simply stop all the actions of craving! What could be more direct and wholesome than that? If you repeatedly and thoroughly do that, how could such a practice have any other effect but the gradual weakening and later elimination of craving? You literally remove it bit by bit!

@@TheDhammaHub Because I don't believe - and perhaps I'm wrong- that stop craving does not eliminate craving. I belive that "craving" is life itself. It's the movement of genically programmed matter. This program remains - no matter what you do on a course level. You need stronger means.

@@metamurk Well... I guess you would agree that you can very much fix your conduct right? As in, you can stop acting based on craving with the body, which would be the grossest kind of craving. I would assume that you can very much see how this would lead to the attenuation of craving in regards to the body right? I would further assume that you also see it in regards to your speech, right? And I would _also_ assume that you would very much believe that there is strong calm and joy to be gained from such simple practices of first restraining and later _devaluing_ of craving on those rather gross levels, right? Given that this principle applies on the bodily and verbal level, is it far-fetched to assume that it also works on the even more subtle level of the mind? Would it be far-fetched to assume that giving up those craving-bound actions of the mind would lead to _even greater_ calm and joy? I would agree though, that there is a certain point where this simple practice of _virtue_ reaches a limit (Samadhi). As I understand and explain Samadhi, it would be the natural point of convergence of virtue. If you stop your action of craving on all levels, they will simply be gone after a while and that would be a state of complete calm, joy, and all the other wholesome qualities come together. Yet, you might be able to get rid of all craving in your life and even for eons (depending on the strength of that Samadhi) to come, but using mere virtue/Samadhi, you cannot ensure that craving cannot regrow. For that, we need wisdom. Wisdom, in very simple terms, "just" makes sure that we cannot start _doing_ craving-related thing again as we simply notice how impossible it is, was, and always will be. This is the "extra bit" that is necessary. Yet, I have trouble seeing where anything _else_ might come into play or might even be necessary. Why do i need to cultivate calm in isolation when it is the natural result of virtue? Why cultivate joy, when it naturally arises from virtue done right?

@@TheDhammaHub Because it does simply not work out. It is very far-fetched. Subtle craving is everywhere - you are not even able to realize it and see it with a course mind not trained in absorbtion and continious sati. It is mikrosecond fast and not visible with course mind. You are only practice surface-virtue which leads to surface-joy. This is very limited.

@@metamurk I can only very much disagree here^^ The point is not to catch every single instance of "immediate" craving. The point is to practice _sufficient_ virtue and then understand the general principle behind it. if the message truly sinks in that sensuality is in fact _dangerous_ and provides little gratification, then the value of _renunciation_ becomes established in the mind. Once that value has replaced the overall value of sensuality, it is no longer _necessary_ to closely watch every single move of the mind. It will simply and naturally shy away from anything that comes even close to craving. it does no longer _want_ to be there! Further, craving is not something that "happens to you", it is something we _actively "do"_ - it cannot come over us unseen - it can only seem like that to an untrained mind. Once you notice that it requires active engagement/entertaining, you also notice that you have a choice at any point in time. Also, the point of restraint (on various levels of severity( is to make craving visible that would otherwise be hidden. You have to be apart from what you deem agreeable for you to notice your dependence on something - at least initially. I do not see how e.g. focusing provides that... it would only do that for "cushion-settings"... everything else would require some other kind of practice. Simply "stopping" craving-bound actions requires no discrimination between on and off cushion^^

Kind of. If you behave truly wholesome, then actions will simply unfold by themselves and there is a natural flow to things. Non-activity is a catalyst for that state that allows you to train in regards to the neutral feeling so that you may be "inactive" while the body might be active. Yet, its much easier to cultivate that while _also_ doing nothing with the body. That in turn can train you to not be "active with the mind"

Hey Cody! I would say that they are more for those who wish to attain Jhanas/Brahmaviharas. In a sense, they are (partially) disjunct from Stream Entry. While a Sotapanna has a natural inclination away from sensuality and towards renunciation, for him, rules & observances have no real "meaning" as he has seen that the work is yet elsewhere to be done. He will very likely at least start keeping them after a while but he does not need to bind himself to them. To _attain_ the Right View, they can be very beneficial though, as they show you the shortcomings of the less "extremely harmful" but more subtle kinds of cravings (lust being slightly blameworthy but slow to fade). However, they are not "mandatory" in the strict sense either. I would still keep them though if Stream Entry is my goal as they very much support your way there!

@@TheDhammaHub Thank you for replying! This is good to know. I am intent on Stream Entry and have undertaken the 8 precepts, but I have a wife and children and it feels like I am abandoning them. It would be very good if I didn't have to do this! I fear that the sense of abandonment may lead to me giving up the endeavor as I already feel a lot of guilt.

@@codybutcher968 Ironically, Saif and I have recorded a video on exactly that topic just yesterday ;D it will probably be released somewhere in August so that might help you too^^ In short: you do not abandon your family "physically", you abandon your dependence _on_ your family as a "source of safety". You no longer suffer when there is change and alteration in them. This is what renunciation means. That said, certain behaviors you will give up. Once the value of renunciation has been established in you, your actions will fall into place accordingly. We can only really repeatedly go to eat chocolate every day when we value that. Once the value has been replaced, our actions will slowly cool down in that regard.

@@TheDhammaHub I will definitely be on the look out for that video! I think I have noticed what you are talking about. I was practicing a lot more restraint previously and noticed when I was "accepting" the arisen prospect of delight in whatever was present at the time. I had recently watched a video by Hillside Hermitage where Ajahn Nyanamoli said "you are taking shelter in a burning building" and I could not stop thinking that. It did feel like I was trying to take shelter in it, to feel safe. Of course it had been undermined by the knowledge that it could not remain, as if I now saw the fire. Would it be possible to continue this in a less public space, if you are able to?

@@codybutcher968 Sure, feel free to dm me on Discord^^

It is not the _training_ of the mind that starts with the Right View, it is what that Buddha called "Path", which would be the "Noble part" of the training. Before that, you do lots of other things that _lead you_ to the path!

@@TheDhammaHub Like I said, silly question. Thank you! But it got me thinking: still, why outline the Noble Path at all if it's automatic to begin with?

@@Limemill ​ The Noble Path does not automatically begin. It takes a lot of work to undo your prior wrong views and attenuate your old sensual habits "sufficiently". It only starts "automatically" once those prior conditions are in place. It is called "Right view" and sometimes "Noble" Right View because it is a major achievement. Once you attain it, you have basically ended Samsara and are destined for liberation. That's not a small thing - in fact, its likely the _biggest thing_ someone will ever experience. What I say is, that it is easier to undo the wrong views than it is to attain the level of purity that would constitute a full Jhana. In a sense, while practicing virtue, you start walking the Path "unknowingly" and try to figure it out. You aspire to attain it through your conduct and views. You train, but you are not training as "targeted" as you could do if you truly understood wholesome and unwholesome in its entirety. Further, the true eradication of the taints (so that it is no longer subject to future arising) can _only_ start with the Right View. That is the training of the Noble Ones. Everything before that might influence craving and "casts it away" for incredibly long periods, but _never_ does it fully _destroy_ craving. Hence, this point in the training shifts everything and is of utmost importance.

@@TheDhammaHub Thank you for your thorough answer. I think I'm missing something very basic in my understanding. Because if the Dhamma (the Noble Path) starts with the Noble Right View AND the Noble Right View in itself is pretty much a guaranteed end to Samsara, shouldn't 90% of the teaching be based on what needs to be done to obtain the Noble Right View? And maybe 5 to 10% could be then dedicated to what happens after it (the Noble Path)? Otherwise, the Noble Path's definition is sort of redundant for stream enterers: they already guaranteed themselves full liberation and know what to do exactly. And, on the other hand, it's impenetrable for puttujhanas. Why not have a more detailed path for puttujhanas instead and a rough blueprint for the Nobles ones (just for the sake of completeness, since the Noble ones won't even need that blueprint)

@@Limemill I guess it would be good to keep the target audiences in mind that the Buddha spoke to. I would say that most of the discourses, if not 80% or more were spoken to very advances practitioners and were meant to speed up their progress. The "guarantee" is only a guarantee because you are _forced_ to let go on the deathbed. If you want to avoid that and as the Suttas say "do not give rise to remorse later", you have to do the work gradually _before_ you are about to die. The fact that you are guaranteed liberation does not mean that its "free" or "easy". There is still plenty of hard work to do for a Sotapanna! Yet, in basically all Suttas, the Buddha also included talk on virtue and that very virtue that you must perfect is the same before and after Stream Entry. it just has another "nuance" added to it. Further, the instructions up until Stream Entry are increadibly simple, albeit hard to implement... there is not much you can really say about that training^^ It is just crazy hard to do as it is like coming clean from super-heroine or something. Simple to say (just don't take any more heroine) but super hard to "do" Does that make it clearer?

Hmm... I would suppose that it is quite difficult to be self-awakened in a culture that is so rich with spirituality^^ When there is Dhamma floating around, it should be almost impossible not to come into contact with it over the course of 17 years and then to "remember it" when the time is right

When I say that the Dhamma is easy to see based on virtue, there is an implicit "nowadays" in there. Based on the instructions of another who has understood the Dhamma _and_ sufficient virtue, the Dhamma will readily present itself to be discrened! You also need to know "what to look for" to discern it, which is the role of those instructions

Luckily, KZfaq gives us the options to consume content how we like it best!

The way I explain it, at least from my point of view, is only "quite secluded" or "thoroughly secluded" but not _fully_ secluded. There are still the underlying fetters/views that can lead to the re-engaging with sensuality. Yet, there are quite a number of Jhana formulations from the Suttas that state that a person gives up "delight and grief for the world" by entering the first Jhana. I just focused on other explanations here. And btw, I do not say anything about good and bad here, that is indeed something that happens in the fourth Jhana, if you think of it in terms of pleasure and pain.

Lieber Dschakaa, zuerst: mein Beileid zu der Krebserkrankung Ihres Bruders - ich wünsche eine schnelle und hoffentlich komplikationsfreie Genesung! Die Vorträge hier auf KZfaq sind leider mit Untertiteln etwas schwierig zu verstehen, weil die Algorithmen die ganzen Pali-Worte etwas falsch "verstehen". Viele Deutsche Videos habe ich zudem leider nicht in petto. Allerdings kann ich immer gerne anbieten Fragen zu beantworten oder Themen genauer zu erläutern. Wann immer ich die Zeit dafür habe nehme ich mir diese gerne! Wenn also etwas spezielles ist, dann kann man mich gut via Mail erreichen - z.B. unter "[email protected]" (der Channel hieß mal anders). Liebe Grüße Florian

Danke für die superschnelle Antwort und das Angebot an Sie Fragen zu stellen. Noch einen schönen Abend!

@@dschakaa74 Gerne!

Hallo ihr beiden und schön, dass es euch gefällt! Wenn sich mir Gelegenheiten bieten, werde ich natürlich auch auf Deutsch weiter Vorträge machen. Was deutschsprachige Videos angeht könnte ich mir vorstellen ab und an mal ein Video auf einem gesonderten Channel zu veröffentlichen - ich glaube nicht, dass es sinnvoll ist Sprachen zu mischen =) Sollte es aber vermehrt Interesse geben, werde ich das natürlich in Erwägung ziehen! Liebe Grüße

Ja das wäre wirklich großartig! 👌🏻😇🙏🏻

I have written the book for people who already have a significant interest in the Dhamma. The lecture is designed to have as few prerequisites as possible. As such, I have included this "basic" that I do not find necessary if you already "have gone forth mentally". I do not really think that what I write will ever be very mainstream and as such, I assume a certain level of "expertise" in those who read it still^^

There is a release through conduct (practice of virtue that culminates in either Jhana or Brahmavihara) and then there is release by discernment or wisdom. The former is getting rid of the superficial defilements/hindrances but leaves the fetters intact. Fetters should just be understood as "mechanisms that lead to the rebirth of craving" even if it has been "gone" for quite a while. release by wisdom goes beyond that. This kind of release is no longer subject to future arising. It is a release through dependent origination _in addition_ to the "release" through virtue. Through this kind of release, the "taking up" (by whatever means) of craving becomes impossible, as it is not "your doing" and that knowledge is more significant than any part of the aggregates.

I am not sure where you get the idea from that what I describe here would be without "practice". Sense restraint means, and the Suttas are extremely accurate and detailed there, that you do not act based on greed, aversion, or delusion to the best of your ability. When you restrain those behaviours that you usually do and "interrupt your routines", then you only really start _noticing_ the craving that usualyl remains hidden. As an example, when you immediately give in to a craving for chocolate, then you do not feel the suffering that is involved in the process. When you restrain such actions, the suffering becomes apparent for you to work with. In a sense, you only really "discover" that there is something wrong with the way you usually go about you life when you are "separated from what you want" as the Suttas say. This kind of restraint has increadibly many levels to it and all of them reveal craving on ever-finer levels that you may then restrain and thus decondition. As a result, calm arises that stems from no longer wanting something that previously oppressed you. It is not too different from a drug addict who "comes clean" and later realized how much of a burden his previous addicted lifestyle was. As a result he will experience immense relief, joy, calm, and later just a profound sense of "healthiness". Yet, there is no real magic about this. The training in virtue that the Buddha described just "arificially" separates you from what you deem agreeable so that you don't have to experience it all at once. Yet, for everything that you have given up in this way, you experience some fruit of the practice and are rewarded by immense peace and lightness - you are unburdened. This kind of practice is nothing that comes easy or that you do as a "side quest" it is a practice that you have to maintain 24/7 and it is among the msot difficult, yet least magical or mythical things you can imagine. Yet, the result should be quite clear. If you _untrain_ layer by layer all the craving from your life, then you will at some point end up without craving. Such a state could rightfully be called "quite secluded from sensual pleasures". What I mainly say is, that whatever you practcie might be, it has to be 24/7, 365 days a year and not just for a few hours each day. Only when your virtue applies on this level will the mind unify in Samadhi. Otherwise, there is always some worldly desire that will interrupt such a state of Samadhi. A Samadhi that you enter and leave is not the Samma Samadhi that the Suttas describe. The Buddha evain said that craving is a "maker of limits". If your Samadhi ends at the ending of a sitting, then it is a Samadhi with limits. At any time, I prefer being without craving at _any time_ regardless of the posture.

@@TheDhammaHub So how exactly should this work? What is the exact way to do it?

@@TheDhammaHub ​ @TheDhammaHub So how exactly should this work? What is the exact very concrete way to do it? In my experience, when you are a dedicated samadhi practicisoner, your samdahi never ends, it just changes intensity. I practice this all the time, in meetings, in public transport. There is no posture. Posture helps, but it is not that important.

Because practice is on the cushion. Not something freestyle walking around, being mindfull and watch your cravings. That's simply not this part of the path, but right efford and right thought you are talking about all the time. Not right mindfulness nor right samadhi, which are simply othe parts of the path. The buddha himself was a dedicated samatha practitioner.

@@metamurk Let us compare this process with a regular addict. A normal addicted is addicted to a certain substance like cocaine. Why do you consider him an addict? Because he repeatedly takes his drug and seems to have lost control over this process. He values his drugs and only experiences peace shortly after he got it. If, however, that person were to stop taking his drug, people would slowly but surly stop considering him an addict just like people would only call you a car mechanic as long as you do car mechanic things. After a while, the addict might have his behavior better under control but would still value his drug on a mental level, we still considers it valuable and "wants it" deep down. Only once he has been clean for long enough that his internal value system changes would he be considered truly "clean" and no longer in danger of falling back. In this simile such a person would be considered "perfected in the virtue of abstaining from cocaine" once this point has been reached. Then, he would twist this or that way and would be deeply troubles if people would force him anywhere near cocaine. it is the same with sensuality. Sensuality is the most general of all addictions that includes all other possible addictions. Sensuality means that you are addicted to pleasant sights for the eye, nice sounds for the ear, beautiful touches, tastes, smells and agreeable thoughts. The process of overcoming this kind of addiction is exactly the same as coming clean of a drug, but much much harder. You would be considered as "sensual" by other renunciates as long as you "take your drug" of sensuality, which means acting out of greed, aversion, or delusion towards any experience of the senses. The less you delight in the senses, the less addicted you are and at some point, you no longer engage in behaviors of seeking agreeable sense inputs. At that point however, you still value them on a mental level. Yous till "want" sensuality and think its good deep down. Only when you have abstained for quite a while so that even those deep values have eroded away and you have noticed that life is better without this sensual addiction will you be perfected in virtue. At that point, you see sensuality as deeply dangerous and would twist this or that way if two strong men would force you back towards sensuality like it was a pit filled with glowing embers. The point is, coming "clean" of sensuality is much more about what you _do not_ do and not so much about what you do instead. what you must definitely do is "no longer engage in sensual behaviors". What you do as a _replacement_ is secondary as long as it is not sensual. In this way, you decondition the unwholesome (sensual) and cultivate the wholesome. Yet, if you have ever been truly addicted to _something_ you know how much work, patience, and willpower the process of coming clean from even smaller addictions can be. It is a constant battle and for some people it can help to first "wean off" using certain replacement strategies like pleasant breath exercises. The point is, they are not "essential" as the essential bit would be the _Stopping of sensual actions_ - this is the part that cannot be left out. Yet, even though you are not addicted right now, there is still the possibility that you slowly fall back to old habits. You might still become negligent and find yourself in a place of addiction to some sensual experience again. Yet, at least for a while, based on this kind of non-addiction, there is literally NOTHING in the entire world that could distract you from the Dhamma. The Dhamma makes sure that it becomes impossible to become addicted again! While non-addicted, you cultivate the impossibility to ever become addicted again in the future by any means. You make the possibility for craving to arise again "like a palm stump" so that it is _no longer subject to future arising_

A divine messenger is another name for a tragic event in life where our typical copes fail and we realize that something else is necessary to avoid such pain in the future

At some point, the mind itself moves away from things that want to reverse the correct order, it is very visible, but it is not enough, the further process requires giving up the current life to burn off the fuel of these perversions and this is the problem for the layman. Regards and I wish you patience.

That is Saif. If you want to ask him something, you can best do that by joining our Discord. I don't think he has any other web presence apart from this

thanks for letting me know! Right now I am probably fine with this, until someone complains xD

lol really that is doubt? ... no doubt this dude has to leave ....

In other words, you wish to have it all, sensual experiences and liberation at the same time?

I think a good question to ask with respect to this question is what liberation is achieved in such an activity. As long as the path of sensuality is chosen, one can not uproot suffering. And for this to happen, the first step is to truthfully acknowledge that what one desires in a sensual domain ; in lack of that honesty, any practice is not in good faith. With best wishes

Yes but the liberation only lasts about 30 seconds 😏

That depends on what you mean by this. There are cases of lay sekhas in the Suttas where they engaged in sexuality up until Sakadagami. But after that, people were usually living celibate. And even before that, the overall interest was very low likely. Marriage back in the days was not really about "love". Most people lived in arranged marriages to continue a family etc^^ Anyway... once you reach Sotapatti or likely way before that, you will realize that sexuality might be not as good and inviting as you have previously thought it was... it is more akin to being forced by your primal urges^^