The broccoli example is unintentionally a great example of the problems involved. Nutrition studies is in the middle of a replication crisis. Part of the cause is that many biases have been smuggled into the science, and so have come to inform mainstream thought. This is because many have mistaken conventional thought as intuitively obvious and undeniable common sense. But it turns out that much of conventional thought is being proven wrong. Many of these biases originated in pre-scientific thought that was modernized and rationalized, such as Galenism that was Christianized in the Middle Ages and given a pseudo-scientific veneer by Seventh Day Adventists. But few people are well informed of history. This brings us to broccoli. We have come to assume that we should eat our vegetables. This supposed wisdom didn't come from our ancestors. Broccoli didn't even exist until recent generations. Before modern agrochemicals, few people bothered gardening at all. That is because plants could be destroyed over night. Only the wealthy could afford to maintain walled gardens with staff to pick off pests daily. We modern people don't learn how hard it was to grow plants in the past. There weren't even dependable surplus yields of wheat until the 19th century. Before that, wheat was limited mostly to the rich. The vast majority of the American diet prior to 20th century industrialization was fatty meats. Now think of what is considered blatantly obvious, to the point that it can't be questioned. Vegetables are good. Yet notice that most children hate vegetables. We have no instinct that vegetables are good for us. It requires enculturation for us to learn and internalize this ideology. We've come to suppress what our bodies are telling us. Try to eat vegetables without anything added to them. Most vegetables have little flavor or else bad flavor. So, we cover the taste up with oils, butter, herbs, spices, and salt. We aren't listening to what our bodies are telling us. Most vegetables by themselves don't taste good. Maybe that is important info. But instead we allow dietary ideology to disconnect us from our own bodily signals.

As someone adversely impacted by LED lights on a daily basis, it is sad to hear that the solution to all this is just replacing the current generation with next generation when we all know they have not been scientifically vetted to ensure they are safe for public consumption. The physics of these lights, basically quasi-laser at any "CT", is alarming. So to say that they are the future of lighting and can make the lighting industry even more money is cynicism and greed at its worst given what we already know about these lights, especially give the clear alternatives of returning to softer lighting like sodium vapor street lights and halogen headlights. If you're going to play the money making game, don't cry like a baby when things don't go your way. Own the problem and fix it.

There is an answer to all this, of course. It's called environmental legislation like we had with the clean water act and clean air act. Self regulation is commendable as are good neighbors. But this didn't clean up the rivers polluted with heavy metals and sewage discharges. Same with air. It's called the modern era. There is a social contract in a developed, civilized society that issues like health, safety and the environment will be protected under the law. That has not been done with light pollution and natural light as a media to be conserved. Where would we be if water pollution was just left to the goodwill of industry and private parties? How about solid waste? How about air? The situation is really pathetic though I applaud the efforts of the various groups and industry associates that are trying. They're not getting much help from government or to be frank, the people themselves.

So many interesting thoughts - I learned a lot, thank you!

Another discussion and topic 10 years ahead of its time that should have happened 50 years ago! Oil and gas reservoir simulation was at this stage in about 1982. I know because I was there. Water and air pollution 1972. Lots of catching up to do. Analytical models can be real helpful for checking results such as a Lambertan model for LED sources. Simulation was not my area but the earth sciences are very advanced in this area so might be a good source of expertise as well. The major universities such as Stanford need to include light pollution and artificial light environmental science in their programs. Some of that climate change money would go along way on such programs. If there's a take away all I can do is applaud Dr. Morrell's brave efforts and emphasize the multi-disciplinary nature of lighting science. That means working with modelling experts, environmental scientists, environmental toxicology people, fish and wildlife, animal lab researchers, regulatory experts/lawyers, health and safety professionals. The closest effort that comes to mind is the Manhattan Project in terms of scope and urgency.

youtube standard license instead of creative commons -> downvote, close tab

Another great discussion. As a career environmental regulator my bottom line is regulation of artificial light much like water and air etc. This could be done in a fairly straightforward manner by the right people. What this discussion reminds me of is the amount of cultural back filling that is needed to get people on board with this need at a grass roots level. I wish this topic was number one on the list of global issues that the World Economic Forum, but it is not. This gets back to the second action item - the need to restore a proper arms length distance between corporations and government rather than the Fascistic top down model where they are all meeting together and high fiving over the next profit making opportunity. Governmnet's role is to implement responsible regulations that benefit the people, not help corporations get richer. Further, as pointed out in this discussions, and I've seen this over and over in the environmental arena, compliance with responsible regulations actually improves business models and makes businesses money. These regulations would ideally be adopted at the State or Federal level, not local but that would take a ton of enlightened leadership that we don't have at this time any where in the world that I am aware of.

The Dark Skies argument is just cover for religious bigotry and is just opposition to the building of a religious structure. If this was a Costco being built, people would move heaven and earth to make it happen.

Unfortunately what has happened is that advances in lighting technology have moved us further and further away from healthy forms of light for animals and humans. Humans evolved under natural light, including the sun, stars and moon, as well as fire first discovered from lighting strikes and later rubbing sticks. Then oil lamps of the stone age, pre-B.C. and antiquity. Then the gas lamps of the industrial revolution leading and later the discovery of filament light bulb by Edison. And so it went, further and further away from black body radiation and fire as a light source. Now here we are with electronic lighting taking over produced essentially by a reverse photo-electric effect. Further and further away we have been led by the siren song of something for nothing. Yet the real costs have been externalized and not marked to market. We don't even know what they are because the research isn't being done yet we talk about "lighting solutions". Folks, the field of lighting is an environmental science as much as anything else. It is therefore multi-disciplinary. The lighting industry does not have the solution to the issues associated with ALAN indoors or outdoors, let alone all those devilish bright LEDs left on all day.

I'm curious how long these plaintiffs (there is now a lawsuit) have actually lived here, and how much of the year they do so. It sounds like they are recent arrivals who come for the summer and go south for winter. . Hardly the best people to be taking up this issue.

Informative video but to say that LED lights are here to stay could be like saying lead in water is here to stay, or asbestos in clothes as a fire retardant is here to stay. There is reason to believe that even "warmer", lower luminance LED light may be toxic because it is still a Lambertian discharge whereas the type of light humans adapted to over the ages was spherical source or black body. To get anywhere on this subject regulations are needed that specify prescriptive and performance standards for indoor and outdoor light that serve the beneficial uses of spaces and corridors and respect sensitive receptors, nocturnal species and various other interdisciplinary issues. I think it is very well possible, when the necessary due diligence is done, including scientific studies, that it will be determined that NO form of LED light is safe or healthy. The numbers cited for sunk costs are a fraction of a fraction of the annual military budget. The stakes in all this are huge. Given what has been happening in the health arena since these lights came in, I think it would also be wise to be seriously concerned about the health of nocturnal animals, including bats which have been implicated in Covid.

An ecological approach to ALAN, based on modern day standards, would likely even implicate forms of previous lighting, so LED lights might just be the starting point.

Thank you so much! It's such important information that needs to be known.

In San Antonio, TX the temple sits near a base where the military conducts night training drills. The Church shuts the lights off at 10pm as part of an agreement with the city. It seems like that would be an excellent compromise here.

Mark is a great influence and has been very diligent in his efforts to get LED taken seriously over the years.. Well done Mark..

I'm a huge supporter of the dark skies movement. One thing Lisa needs to consider is compromise. Lisa moved to a small town which was carved out of wilderness by pioneers. Now she feels she is qualified to dictate the terms of their religious structures? I don't think so. She Crossed the line when she started talking about height limitations of the temple. As a local , we're sick of these out of towners coming here, building Mcmansions, then opposing everyone else. While complaining about the local customs. Take the revised lighting compromise and go back too your day job making electrical lighting products.

Light pollution is pollution. Light trespass is trespass. Light is litter. Time to make it socially unacceptable to litter, trespass and pollute with light. Education is key. As well as enacting strict responsible outdoor light at night ordinances and legislation. Astrotourism and ecotourism is another component to bring in business to help with the preservation and reclamation of our shared heritage of our pristine dark skies. Great information. Great podcast. Keep up the good work and best of luck Wasatch in preserving your dark skies!

Does he have any social media

Thanks for the podcast, really knowledgeable and enjoyable. In this podcast, you have mentioned the LP network, can I have a link to it, please? Thank you!

𝖕𝖗𝖔𝖒𝖔𝖘𝖒

Excellent term: "Star Bathing"!

Almost half a mile which is insane.

I played with the idea of tinted glass embedded with the silhouette of a hawk or eagle as means to protect birds at risk.

It won't be by RAB promoting floodlights and yet trying to cash in on IDA's endorsement.

How do we deal with the insurance companies and car lots?

I love the short, dense (and often poetic) thoughts this podcast keeps giving here and there. Like that it's nice to try and maintain a meditation practice but originally it was built into our nights... Or that the only things that both our ancestors and we have seen are the stars.

I love “turn the damn lights off.” This is what I am dying to say to all my neighbors!

I just found your podcast and love it, especially this episode. One thing that would make it better would be to verbally or in the show notes add the guest’s social media accounts to follow or any other way to keep abreast of their work - whether past, present, or future. Thank you.

wow yes light pollution very big problem