Nice one Vernon. Love your lifestyle and beaut presentations. 85 now, and with the wrinkles of life starting to tell and slowing me down, i’m left only to reminisce. Relive, with the magic of youtube, some of the wee journeys to places i’ve been. So totally rapt with your video. Thank you. Oh how i Iove the Island of Sulawesi, a beautiful flower of a place, shaped like an orchid, with it’s own special fragrance and mystic charm, calling out to be seen and explored. So i bought a little Honda 125, tied on my bundle, and hit the road. Mid 1970 it was. My homeward loop back to Makassar (where I bought the bike and sold it back to the dealer) followed down the East side of South Sulawesi Province and around the coastline of the Bulakumba Region. Bira, right on the Southern tip, was a place i wanted to throw away my passport, didn’t want to leave. Then it was on to Tana Biru, a short ride away going West. The plan a for quick shufty around the place and move on got interrupted by what i saw there. Got caught up with the Perahu Pisisi story, happening all along the shore line, these hand built majestic ships at all stages of construction, from laying the 1st hull plank, to being inched towards the water for launch, to the 1st hoist of the sails. Absorbed in the trade of these Bugis master craftsman, handed down father to son, i stayed there 3 days. If your into boats Tana Biru is definitely not a place for a quick shufty around. I fell in love with the people of Sulawesi, and one lady in particular, born in the wee town of Gorontalo, who one day fine day happened to meet up with a fella, born in the wee town of Donaghadee, a long way across the sea in Ireland, who was just passing through. Been together 48 years, now living in Canada.
@lightning92797 сағат бұрын
Spoiled first world yacht brats complaining about other countries rising out of a third world existence. 👎
@mikecarswell434319 сағат бұрын
Hey thanks for the video, really like your thought process and calm discussion on what options are left. How much shore line do you carry/ suggest for cruising areas like that? And is it all floating polypropylene? Cheers
@TammyBillings-qt1veКүн бұрын
Wow that was an eye opener. Great video.
@superwag634Күн бұрын
As a mining engineer, I am desensitised to this. Australia has just as many sites even worse than this Indonesian Nickel mine. This one however sent the Nickel mine near Esperance bankrupt and BHP is not happy and neither are the 2,000 Aussies who lost their jobs a few weeks ago
@Alex000113Күн бұрын
Boy what a contrast, such an obvious difference visible on land and in the water ! Great video, hope your video gets shared to a wider audience. I agree with your conservation theme but maybe a lesson is also for humans to go experience/enjoy/learn about what we see now, as you never know what will happen in the future (natural catastrophes such as volcanoes also have destructive impact).
@robertbeckett7829Күн бұрын
No offence to local Indonesian people, but this country's government is up there with the worst, all the while keeping very quiet 😢.
@psystealth2 күн бұрын
thanks mate, fair winds
@SVBLUEBELL2 күн бұрын
So stop using your cellphone, notebooks get rid of your batterie on your vessel. Or dont complain. I mean this the reality and also these workers inntge mines have jobs to feed their families. Its not that easy!
@SailingLearningByDoingКүн бұрын
@@SVBLUEBELL such an ignorant way of looking at it, sorry not sorry.
@SVBLUEBELLКүн бұрын
@@SailingLearningByDoing if you dont like the fact that this is happening the way it is. Again dont buy and use all akku-devices or dont complain
@antonbloemendal38122 күн бұрын
The modern powerplants are smaller and much more safer than the old ones with new thechnologie, think you should inform you about the new technologie realy much more safer.
@lawrencea2743 күн бұрын
Interesting but not at all surprising. This is the result of human capitalism,and the greed of us ALL. I've been a sailor for 40 years with a plastic/fiberglass boat something that will take centres to break down if ever. There are no answers for us, just the inevitable. On KZfaq song video by Tapestry - Don McLean ( with lyrics) click more below
@antoncarmoducchi60573 күн бұрын
EVs. So good for the environment. Wait...
@SailingLearningByDoing3 күн бұрын
They are for sure, it's the mining methods that are no good and that comes from the need for investors to make double digit profits.
@billpetersen2983 күн бұрын
Chinese involvement! You can kiss nature goodbye. There’s always a coal plant. If you’re into pollution, check out their rare earth processing.
@SailingLearningByDoing3 күн бұрын
Ahh, the rolling green hills of England, so natural. Wait, that all used to be forest? And the whole of Europe too, with bears, wolves etc??? Must be the Chinese.
@billpetersen2983 күн бұрын
@@SailingLearningByDoing You should look into it. Like the fishing fleet, it's quite shocking. Or the occupation of Tibet, and East turkestan. In modern times, when we should know better.
@garry56084 күн бұрын
Apparently 70% of nickel is used in Stainless Steel production? I know there are other chemistries now shifting away from NMC, even though it’s still used quite a lot
@SailingLearningByDoing3 күн бұрын
Yep around that percentage. Nickel for batteries use has gone up from 5% to 15% in the last few years though so that is fueling the mining boom.
@garry56082 күн бұрын
@@SailingLearningByDoing no offence but, surely the title is a little misleading then? Shouldn’t it say the dark side of stainless steel and EV production? But I guess that wouldn’t get as many clicks
@SailingLearningByDoingКүн бұрын
@@garry5608 exactly. But mostly, the huge increase in nickel mining in Sulawesi is directly tied to battery production.
@swallow77gmail4 күн бұрын
is it EV? Like mobiles, laptops and few dozens of other equipment does not use same type batteries. EVs' batteries at least have proper recycling.
@davidressler42924 күн бұрын
Great video. This sad truth is that in order to extract the minerals, they don't have to do it this way, hurting the earth and polluting the area. It costs more to do it cleanly, but it is very possible. The proper legislation accompanied by uncorrupt government officials prevents this.
@SailingLearningByDoing3 күн бұрын
To do it cleanly is very tough, you still need to remove the forest and every animal. It would also mean that investors wouldn't get their double digit profits and without that they would invest in something else and Indonesia would miss out.
@antonbloemendal38124 күн бұрын
Pitty that this happen because atom powerplant will be better
@SailingLearningByDoing3 күн бұрын
Until an accident happens then not so good.
@paulc27764 күн бұрын
It's the way they survive.. leave a donation, perhaps everybody that complains should help the locals. Better research would change your thoughts. Seems most want the joy of the location and that's it.. Not trying to offend.. Please stick to what you understand and yes i have been here many times and spoken to the locals. Laws allows it, contact the government ! Safe travels . Look into it, the locals are well looked after. The Pilbara is no better..same same as they say.
@SailingLearningByDoing3 күн бұрын
Sorta hard to understand what youre trying to convey here. You mean the locals who've lost their forest, reef and water are happy and well looked after? Maybe go again and dont drink the Sopi.
@MickeyDichter4 күн бұрын
very concerning indeed...
@deerfootnz4 күн бұрын
Only 4% of world nickel production is used in rechargeable batteries. But 68% is used for stainless steel production. Don't get sucked in by propaganda. I have two electric cars. There is exactly zero grammes of nickel in them.
@SailingLearningByDoing3 күн бұрын
Yeah nah. Old stats mate. Nickel use in batteries has gone from 5% to 15% in the last decade and Tesla last year signed a $5 billion deal with Indonesia for Nickel. Maybe they know better than you what the future will bring
@arnehayn43544 күн бұрын
It's not only nickel, gold mining in Lomkok and glass smelting. In general I got the impression that Indonesia has a different view on environmental protection than other countries
@FreeRadicalslifestyle5 күн бұрын
Well done ... you have honestly spoken about the division of reality and greenwashing rampant in the dialogue of alternative power generation. We all understand that POLLUTION is a beast that needs to be tamed in our Western materialistic world. Unfortunately, energy and pollution are tarred with the same brush which is used by the money/power brokers to at the same time feather their own nest and deprive people of lifestyle opportunities.
@SailingLearningByDoing3 күн бұрын
Pretty much. There are some that have a genuine desire to make things better but most companies jump on the bandwagon in order to make better profits. You just need to look at how the word "sustainable" is used these days.
@alistairmcdonald2655 күн бұрын
Great video. We spent most of last year sailing up through Indonesia from Australia. It really is a country of contrast, none more obvious than this one. Industry in general , over/illegal fishing and the lack of infrastructure are killing off parts of the country very quickly. The global demand is there and an emerging nation like Indonesia of course will aim to supply it. Battery technology will change, hopefully sooner rather than later. It is heart breaking seeing it up front. What is the answer?
@SailingLearningByDoing3 күн бұрын
Yep for sure. Indonesia is the 4th largest population now I think and will also be the 4th-5th largest economy by 2030 apparently.
@andrebauer5765 күн бұрын
Nothing to add, Humans just make a terrible mess of this planet.
@endofdaysprophet5 күн бұрын
Unbelievable, Disgusting!!! You would think that mankind would realize after the disaster of coal and oil that maybe they should stop and think about what they are doing BEFORE they just go and destroy the ecosystem!!!
@sailingexcelsior5 күн бұрын
Thank you for sharing this insightful and informative story. We too sailed there and were also shocked and heartbroken to see the landscapes being scraped away. I can hear the heartbreak in your voices and we feel it too. It’s a crying shame but at least you’ve spoken up and shone a light on this horrific situation 🙏🏼
@marie-morganerousselin23525 күн бұрын
Thank you 🙏 We are knowing that we are living in a world with mines to feed the never ending race of consumption but seeing it with your own eyes is a different experience! 😅 We had to talk about it.
@PennWolfsSailingAdventures5 күн бұрын
All I can think of on the cover photos is a raw beautiful island, welcome and inviting. Then strip mining,next resorts,money moving in running everyone off that don't make them a profit. Then trying to "restore" the island for even more profit, making it completely different and restricted. The saddest truth about industry, NO WHERE on the surface of planet is untouchable to human industry these days, if there is something there we want bad enough,we will get it. Sad they couldn't have made spoil islands and left natural run off protection to try to protect the surrounding seas and sea villages. It wouldn't have been difficult and could have provided a lumber,fiber,and farming to the area by using the natural barriers in seasons, shifting the mining.
@SVImpavidus5 күн бұрын
EV's have a very limited lifetime. Compare this to a well built car or truck that can be repaired over and over again for years if not decades. They are just like electric outboards. Great when they are new but the batteries have a limited life and are not environmentally friendly while being almost impossible to recycle and imposible for the owner to repair. Compared to a 20-25 year old Yamaha outboard or even an old seagull which can be repaired over and over and its parts are easy to service and recycle. The push to replace ICE's with EV's is related to greed, taxation and control. It is nothing to do with the environment. Thankfully more and more people are waking up to this. Let us hope it is not too late for our children and grandchildren..... Sail Safe Guys, Ant & Cid
@deerfootnz4 күн бұрын
What utter nonsense. Most battery electric vehicles will have a much longer lifespan than any combustion engined vehicles. And the batteries will outlive the vehicles, will have a use after electric cars and can be recycled. Please don't repeat nonsense propaganda.
@SailingLearningByDoing3 күн бұрын
I'm not really on the same page as you there mate. 150 years ago London and all big cities were literally drowning in horse shit, then along came the steam engine and later the Internal combustion engine. The pushback against those devils machines was widespread and passionate. Sorta similar to what's happening now. Humans are in general allergic to change. Lithium batteries and electric vehicles are still at the steam engine phase and will only improve(rather rapidly). ICE are at the end of thier development cycle, only tiny improvements have been made in the last 20 years.
@DougVarble5 күн бұрын
10:10 incredible topic, you and your family create amazing content, I appreciate your work 🎉
@SailingLearningByDoing3 күн бұрын
Thanks Doug, appreciate that.
@JBTSO5 күн бұрын
It's shit, but it's relatively localised, unlike deforestation for palm oil. Poverty is always significantly more distressing and nickel mining is a means to an end. It's not best practise, but that can be improved by social pressure on the supply chain. First step is awareness.
@SailingLearningByDoing5 күн бұрын
👍
@Dreamtimesail5 күн бұрын
The scary thing was we saw many survey pegs right down near the water line all over Labenke so we share your fear for its future. We're so glad we got to visit this paradise while it was still untouched.
@SailingLearningByDoing5 күн бұрын
yeah we saw them also, blue poles all over the place.
@Dreamtimesail4 күн бұрын
The manager of the little resort around from the anchorage told us it was owned by Chinese. We're not sure they bought it for tourism somehow. It's very concerning for the future of the place.
@MartyBrisbane5 күн бұрын
Where is nickel commonly used? Whilst it is used for EV,s the majority goes into stainless steel which means boat owners are a major part of the problem of mining Nickel - Wikipedia About 68% of world production is used in stainless steel. A further 10% is used for nickel-based and copper-based alloys, 9% for plating, 7% for alloy steels, 3% in foundries, and 4% in other applications such as in rechargeable
@SailingLearningByDoing5 күн бұрын
Old wikipedia post mate. Battery use for nickel is up to 15% of world production, increased massively in the last 4-5 years.
@MartyBrisbane5 күн бұрын
Nickel is used in most electronic and electric devices. We are all guilty of it
@SailingLearningByDoing5 күн бұрын
yep, as we are of using plastic, petrol, etc etc. We are 8 billion all making a little mess.
@michaelstavros86525 күн бұрын
Just sail on by bro
@SailingLearningByDoing5 күн бұрын
well we did,, but first we filmed for this video
@ReignExplores5 күн бұрын
Nickel mines in Australia and elsewhere being put into care and maintenance, with workers losing jobs, unable to compete with the low production cost and low environmental standards of Indonesian production.
@SailingLearningByDoing5 күн бұрын
@@ReignExplores yep that’s happening. Indonesia flooded the market with nickel causing the price to sink drastically. The price will rise again when lots of the competition has dropped out.
@Sonnell5 күн бұрын
Glad you are talking about this is a fair way. Mentioning, we all, and you also are using batteries with nickel. And nickel of course is in other things as well. I would only add that I am not sure if it comes down to the lesser evil. It comes down to power and money. Nickel processing could be done without coal energy plants. I am sure it could be done so they respect the environment more, like re planting the trees, and so on. That would be the lesser evil. But the narcissistic psychopath money man, and politicians will just do what makes the most money, till they can get away with it. You now showed the the world what they can not see, how it is produced. So some of us will change our thinking, perhaps will do against the ways it is being done. Thank you.
@SailingLearningByDoing5 күн бұрын
Thanks for watching and sharing your views. Indonesia doesn't have the technology to do any of the refining or smelting themselves, they need partnerships with China mainly. I would have been possible to power these plants in other ways than with coal but that is a technology they have already and can build it fast. China might have taken their billions elsewhere if Indonesia had insisted on a greener power source as it would have taken years longer to achieve.
@Sonnell5 күн бұрын
@@SailingLearningByDoing I guess, it is not because they do not have the technology. It is because using coal is cheaper than buying tons of solar cells or building wind farms or whatever. It is always: follow the money.
@colinboniface1945 күн бұрын
The sad reality of so called progress... Modern living with the developed conveniences does have an earth cost... Tech is advancing so rapidly, that I am confident of a resource solution in time... Lets hope this happens before the earth chocks on our greed...
@SailingLearningByDoing5 күн бұрын
Yeah exactly, my thoughts too. Battery tech is really in its infancy I feel.
@mickrandell52495 күн бұрын
Heya Vernon and Marie and Eli very sad to see the land in such a bad way nothing really changes does it we apparently have to rape and pillage the land for the greater good what a load of shit just a bunch of greedy bastards and what happens in 50 years time does that country get invaded for there resources ah well my rant over awesome episodes guy's, love em.
@stevechampion79385 күн бұрын
Green energy isn’t that green is it….
@SailingLearningByDoing5 күн бұрын
The energy is yes, the storage not so much.
@tigersharkzh5 күн бұрын
These nickel mines have been in operation since long before EVs were a thing. New Caledonia is littered with them. A look at Google Satellite images and you see them all over the place. EV batteries only account for a low single-digit percent of nickel use. The amount of nickel in batteries is actually minute. There's more nickel in the stainless steel on your boat than in the batteries of dozens of evs. The title of this video reminds me of the false or grotesquely twisted propaganda coming out of oil industry troll factories. Why not say the dark side of marine-grade stainless steel?
@sailingopheliacompass29975 күн бұрын
Sad to see mining Vernon, but be very careful with your safety.
@SailingLearningByDoing5 күн бұрын
Always!
@elektrischunterwegscom5 күн бұрын
Why do you say it has something to do with EVs? Most of the nickel is used elsewhere and there are more and more cars using LFP, which are nickel free. So don't just go for the clickbait headlines.
@SailingLearningByDoing5 күн бұрын
Of course it has something to do with EV's! Tesla recently ordered $5B worth of Nickel from Indonesia. I'm not saying it has everything to do with EV"s but the huge increase in production worldwide of batteries has increased the need for mining, no two ways about it.
@digitalfotonetz5 күн бұрын
@@SailingLearningByDoing Please check you facts! 5% of the mined nickel in the world is ending up in batteries. Almost 60% is used for hardening steel! And since the EV industry is moving away from cobalt, they are also moving away from nickel! Half of the Tesla sold worldwide do not use nickel in the battery. They are LFP, which means no cobalt and no nickel. So, you can say, bad bad steel industry, but then nobody would care... ;-)
@verbalmute48735 күн бұрын
You’re a weird sort of tool for saying that. EV's suck a big one along with all the other sucky shit thats killing us. Big Vern is the man shining light on a few of the more despicable practicexs that will one day make mars look like a better option than here.
@SailingLearningByDoing5 күн бұрын
@@digitalfotonetz there you go with the facts huh. Battery usage worldwide is 15% and increasing year on year.
@davehayes88125 күн бұрын
Vernon, please take EV out of your subject line. 85% of world nickel went to other uses like stainless steel. Also not all lithium batteries use nickel. The ones on your boat are likely LiFePo4 which contain no nickel. Also EV batteries will be recycled, because they are a source of high grade ore, creating a circular economy with vastly smaller impacts compared to fossil fuels. This will take a while. Otherwise I agree with you. We humans can do things so much better.
@SailingLearningByDoing5 күн бұрын
Has Stainless Steel seen a huge increase in production in the last 10 years? No it hasn't. Has Battery production seen a massive increase? Yes it has. Ev's are a big part of this so it has its place in the title as there is a dark side to them.
@verbalmute48735 күн бұрын
EV's suck a big one along with all the other sucky shit thats killing us. Big Vern is the man shining light on a few of the more despicable practicexs that will one day make mars look like a better option than here.
@davehayes88125 күн бұрын
@@SailingLearningByDoing I have been enjoying your vids for years now and love them. So please don't take this as trolling. Yes, I see your point, that EV's are causing an increase in Nickel mining. But, Are EV's the real issue? No, the mining methods are. Are EV's worse that fossil fueled vehicles? Not at all.... kzfaq.info/get/bejne/Z9WGpax5yMrcmnU.html Do all EV's use Nickel? No, like the batteries in your boat, LiFePO4 is dominating all but high performance EV space. Here's the kicker, when you run a fossil fuel engine, you mine the oil, use it once and throw away 80% of the energy dug up in heat and vibration losses. When you mine battery minerals, you use them 2000 to 5000 times before recycling them. The difference is mind blowing. So enjoy using your LFP boat battery, especially when solar charged. It's silent, efficient and will be recycled because the minerals inside will be cheaper to source than minerals in the ground. kzfaq.info/get/bejne/q5uqlM-T2c_NgoU.html
@SailingLearningByDoing3 күн бұрын
Yep, you are right, it's the methods of extraction that are wrong, not the end use. I agree with you about ICE engines as well. But you cant change the methods of extraction much. The forest still needs to be removed to get at the ground below and this is the big thing. You can spend more on cleaning up afterwards but thats not really doing anything much. You can put some new tree's on but that just a sad mono-culture compared to the vigin forest of before. Tesla made an order worth $5 billion over the next 5 years from Indonesia. They still plan non using Nickel in thier batteries for this time at least.
@davehayes88122 күн бұрын
@@SailingLearningByDoing agreed. I hope customers like Tesla choose sources that don't bugger up the surrounding sea.
@SuperDirk19655 күн бұрын
Lifepo does NOT use nickel. Ever seen what coal mining in Australia does to the great barrier reef?
@SailingLearningByDoing5 күн бұрын
What's your point? We say straight up in the video that all mine is pretty destructive. This is not a dig at the EV world etc, come on, see it for what it is.
@SuperDirk19655 күн бұрын
@@SailingLearningByDoing It sure looks like it is though. Btw, batteries using nickel are obsolete.
@SailingLearningByDoing5 күн бұрын
@@SuperDirk1965 I guess Tesla this year ordering $5 billion worth of Indonesian Nickel shows that it's obsolete right?
@SuperDirk19655 күн бұрын
@@SailingLearningByDoing Musk is an assh*le, I thought everyone knew that.
@SailingLearningByDoing5 күн бұрын
great answer, proves your point perfectly.
@LennonBright5 күн бұрын
Amazing work guys, I like this style of video, almost like a mini doco 👏
@SailingLearningByDoing5 күн бұрын
Thanks a ton mate, much appreciated.
@Youtuber-k2p5 күн бұрын
Can people stop calling it NICKLE, it is Nickel.
@SailingLearningByDoing5 күн бұрын
Yep
@Youtuber-k2p5 күн бұрын
Solid state batteries are just starting to enter the market and I believe Honda will use them, battery technology is rapidly changing. Nickel mining however won’t go away when batteries change their technology because nickel is used in so many technologies.
@SailingLearningByDoing5 күн бұрын
Yes, thats true. Sodium batteries are also on the market now, not so great for Ev's as the energy density is less but for grid size applications will be pretty good.
@spaRTan32465 күн бұрын
Where exactly is battery tech changing rapidly? That‘s all marketing BS. Energy density is still appalling and we‘ve been hearing about so-called breakthroughs every single week. Same with solar BTW… 🙄
@SailingLearningByDoing5 күн бұрын
@@spaRTan3246 solid state batteries can be brought on Amazon now, sodium batteries also. Are they as cheap or refined as lithium? No, not yet but they will be soon. Scarcity of the minerals + costs of mining make it a certainty. Sodium is one of the most common elements
@adamtedder10124 күн бұрын
That's simply not true. I've been in the ev scene from the start. I was one of those hobbyist building the first electric bikes with homemade batteries with 18650's. I've been involved and following. What I've learned is if your subscribed or involved in these things you get fed a lot of hopes and dreams of new batteries and technologies that's gonna change everything. It's been a let down. I bought it up over a decade until the same story with every next big thing in batteries disappeared to be never seen again. Battery tech made a huge leap and stopped about 8 years ago. Maybe minor changes since then but nothing world changing. Every big thing from before that never materialized either. Just simply nothing big gonna happen with batteries anytime soon. I think we should be pretty happy with how great we got them already. Ice will be needed for shipping, heavy machinery, distribution, and blue collar work for the long foreseeable future.
@SailingLearningByDoing3 күн бұрын
We had lead acid batteries for how many decades? Maybe 60-70? Lithium have changed the world in the last 10 years! You cant imagine it going any further? Maybe youre too old mate. There are billions being pumped into R&D on this by some of the smartest people from all countries. Our energy sources and storage will look very different in the next decade, of that I'm pretty sure.
@Itssmial_Ova6 күн бұрын
Doesn't scratch the surface of the great damage, corruption, greed and hypocrisy that the Oil Industry perpetuates. That being said, I think countries need to be much more protective of their non-renewable resources. Why let foreign companies come in and take it for a pittance of a royalty? Once it's gone, It's gone forever. Those resources should belong by Birthright to the citizens of that country. Another good video, Thanks for sharing
@SailingLearningByDoing5 күн бұрын
Yeah for sure, Oil has caused way more damage and it continues all the way through from extraction to final use. You did understand the part where Indonesia has banned the export of Ore? They did that to ensure that more of the process is done in Indonesia. Would be great if the whole process could be done domestically but Even the US is 10 years behind China in that technology, imagine how long it would take for Indonesia to figure the process out.
@kitehardinoz6 күн бұрын
The headlong rush to renewables and “green energy” is without doubt, the greatest con played on humanity in our existence. Money greed and lies are the foundations on which the green dream is built. It’s sickening to see your footage of the rape and pillage of pristine land which will only get worse. Enjoy your blissful ignorance and false virtue as you drive your Tesla with the personalized number plates whilst you look down your nose at the oil and coal industry that has given you every conceivable luxury that you enjoy. Keep sleepwalking
@robertlaird67466 күн бұрын
Why don't they mine inland away from the most beautiful places on earth. That wouldn't be allowed in first world countries. On top of that, they are polluting the oceans. I bet that the big companies own that mine and paid off some politician to make it happen. Other than that, no one else is making any money. The labor is so cheap there that the workers are basically working for pennies or basically free. I don't think that people really want electric vehicles all that much. We should use Nikola Tesla free electricity and all have water powered vehicles.
@SailingLearningByDoing5 күн бұрын
They do also mine inland but on the coast is by far the most profitable as you dont need to build any roads. Europe did all this 200 years ago, USA as well and still do.