The "X yet Y" version of the Jedi Code is arguably a more accurate interpretation of the Light Side than the one everyone thinks of. Luke's New Jedi Order embodies it perfectly. Under Luke, the Jedi became everything they were meant to be, and fully lived up to their potential.

Star Wars‘ timeline.

Though I understand and agree with your argument that the use of the Dark Side equals sin, when I look at Force Lightning or Force Choke as "Dark Force abilities", I think of how they are defined, and how they are applied. I argue that it is the intention and therefore the feeling behind a Force power that defines whether or not it's dark. For example, you can use the Force to choke someone, and use it to squeeze the last bit of juice out of an empty carton. They're both basically telekinesis being used to squeeze something in both cases, but the difference is in how it's used. If the intention is to cause harm, or take life, it's dark. Same with Force Lightning. I think "electric judgement" is nonsense, but I also think "Force Lightning is evil" is nonsense too. You can use Force Lightning to restart a heart that's stopped beating, or recharge a dead battery, because it's not intended to be harmful. It can have selfless and utility uses. To quote Kyle Katarn's line in Jedi Academy: "abilities aren't inherently good or evil, it's how you use them."

nice traviss jab lol. her books are a double edged sword for me

Thanks you for this At first Grey Jedi really was just some fence sitting BS for those who didn't want their OCs having to allign themselves to either Light or Dark, but now these character "headcanons" are getting out of hand

I'm going to conceptually defend the Grey Jedi. In my opinion, its not really about "A Middle Ground" between light and dark, but moreso a more anarchic attitude towards the light side of the force.

You need to give in to your inner anti-Filoni and talk smack about him more, i dont see him get enough flak for misunderstanding the Jedi and the Force enough imo

This is SO interesting, thank you so much for making this video. I am not a very knowledgeable fan of Star Wars, but this part of it is so much more interesting now because of your video. A "grey" jedi (this idea of a light/dark user) is actually a sith because it is someone who has let himself get corrupted by temptation and sin to make their life easier and indulge themselves. Not a christian myself but this idea of seeking purity and absolute morality appeals to me!! So it makes Star Wars and the Jedi more beautiful to me. I don't believe serenity can exist in anyone who is driven by emotion over morality.

Also, when was the Purge of Maldelor? During Conder? After?.....

I’ve been a Buddhist most of my life so my understanding of the Force was implied to be life itself and the journey to enlightenment by self development. Jedi seek enlightenment but get bogged down by pride while the Sith fully embrace attachments and negative emotions, becoming demons.

I actually really liked this video. I can't say I agree with everything, but I also enjoyed having a genuine perspective on something I didn't enjoy, but you really liked. I still feel like they could have done better buy Finn and Luke. I really wanted to see the perspective of a stormtrooper when they realized they might be the baddies.

My understanding of Grey Jedi was more like... a Robin Hood concept. Committing crimes against the powerful for the betterment of the powerless

Dark Jedi is good enough for me. They are renegade but not entirely sith. Just like the Yun from JK Dark Forces 2.

I've notice that we christians sometimes have an easier time understanding the dark side as something undesireable within the fandom.

The core issue is the mechanics of the Force and its usage are nebulous. It was an intentionally mysterious plot element in the Original Trilogy that more served the themes of the plot than any in universe construct. As the lore expanded through things like games, EU material, and later nonLucas canon, a need to define it more concretely was found necessary and its concepts start to break down. Take the concept of emotion and intention. In the structure that you explain, there is a subjective “good” that only shifts to “bad” depending on the emotions and intentions attached to it. Cutting people up with a lightsaber without hatred, fear, or anger in your heart is a “Light” action. In that, a being without the same moral guideline or compass completely throws the whole thing out of whack. A sociopath or psychopath who kills for reasons they see as just can commit objectively horrific acts with the serenity of a saint. My point is that the Force, the philosophies surrounding it, and the powers that come from using it need better concrete rules if the growing Star Wars lore is to stay consistent. Think of magic systems in different media. Having rules grounds it in a way that allows understandable consistency that can allow other writers to work with it in a way that doesn’t require fans bending over backwards to put together articles and KZfaq videos to try to make it fit into a constantly growing and shifting canon.

Being a grey jedi is like saying "Yeah, I pray both to God and the devil, what's wrong with that?"

I want the New Republican to be depicted as flawed, but my issue with so much New Canon stuff is that it seems to keep depicting the rapid Demilitarization as a mistake, all these stories where the Solders are correct and the politicians are just getting in the way of them doing what needs to be done is itself a common feature of the Fascist mindset. I honestly would prefer the New Republic be like how it was in Legends but simply framed far more critically.

The problem is that many fans just agree with Lucas's morality including myself as a Christian. The Christians influences on The Force are Superficial and filtered through how Platonist mainstream Christianity became. Now this standard Grey Concept doesn't fit my Morality wither, I agree that Evil is Natural but still to be resisted. My issue is hyper specifically with the Attachments are pad concept. Christianity is founded upon The Resurrection, on rejecting the notion that Death is a natural part of Life we have to accept and instead promising us that Death is only temporary, that's what The Gospel is. The Aescetcism tendency present in both Mainstream Christianity and Lucas's Morality is inherently Toxic.

Great video. I had over the years many times a discussion about this with my players in my dnd sessions on how the force works and not works with them arguing about this until I just say the system (star wars ffg) doesnt support is nor does George lucas view. I do understand why people think like this and like you said other people who wrote star wars have different point of views and put their view of how the force works into it. Legends is very guilty with this as story after story contradicts each other on what balance is. I mean hell Troy Denning just went full Gray jedi and he wrote half of the last star wars books in the EU. Like if you want to use gray jedi in your story sure, but dont use it in debating the movies or be mad when other dont use it especially when playing dnd and your dungeon master tells you that he doesnt like it(mini rant). Even the fan made gray jedi code on a philosophical doesnt make sense. I will do what I must to keep balance? What balance? The previous statement was that there was no darkside and no lightside so what does balance mean then? There is no good without evil but evil cant flourish? So we allow as Gray jedi that people can murder some innocents but not to many? I do have a question. I have read Legacy comics till around when Krayt gets ''murdered'' by Darth Wyyrlok but what I read it doesnt do Gray jedi or break it. We see Cade is struggling with the darkside and he doesnt really slip into gray jedi hell he tries but fails and he is cleary not in good mental place and what I know at the end of the series he is full lightside. The Imperial knights are also just lightside, thought they are well assholes, they do not touch the darkside in anyway and even ordered to kill the Emperor if he falls. The only thing is that some jedi have relationships and kids ect

Disney trashed Star Wars

I never agreed with the concept of the “grey jedi”. It’s interesting to view the force through Christianity,my faith is around the Vedic hymns and to me it makes sense why they lost the war,balance does not win wars. Using the dark side or what many maybe consider an intent to kill is what wins wars in the end. Through my vedic faith I can understand why the jedi lost. They should have battled the sith fire with fire,using stealth or cheap shots,guerilla tactics too perhaps. Then again i favor the sith not the jedi and never will because they are weak,pompous and painfully boring. Interesting video though,calling the jedi evil is incorrect but they are not a good bunch in the prequels,defending the jedi view on things makes one seem naive. That’s also the problem with these religions that resemble the jedi way. Mistakes will be made and knowing this is true balance,making your enemy die on their mistakes is taking advantage of true balance.

This makes sense. But then, I am obligated to ask about Master Windu. Even though he had a purple lightsaber...because Samuel L Jackson wanted, in the universe. It is because he used both the light, and the dark side. Blue + Red = Purple. In fact. It is even stated the reason he was able to hold up against Sidius, is because he was using a dark side fighting style. He, doesnt fall to the dark side. He would be another "example" of the fan fiction "grey Jedi". Literally.

Fans thinking they could handle both but at best they could just be regular soldiers lelm even if they get access to those powers they would fall into the dark side asap they get lost in the cool thing it allows users to do, the jedi understood this hence why they preach about not having attachment and let go and accept things but also understanding why things must happen (Anakin didnt and look what happened to him) The definition of grey jedi sounds more like a cope of the dark side since it involves being selfish to do and take what you want and lie to yourself pretending you are the “good” guy in the end.

It's worth noting that other Dark Side occurrences, both by natural instinct and by deliberate acts of sentient beings, are still (just plain) The Force. But the Sith specifically are a corruption, a cancer on the Force itself. Eliminating them at the end of RotJ was Anakin restoring balance.

11:30 “hardcore fans of this film” (The Force Awakens) - came as a huge surprise. Are there any? I seriously doubt it.

I think you hit on one of the big differences between Legends and Canon treatment of Luke Han and Leia. When I read Legends post Rotj stuff I got the feeling the legacy characters from the movies were trapped in amber the way they were immediately after the OT ended. They even mention Luke never so much as grew a beard later in life (ie everyone even seemed to keep the same sense of style as they got older). Meanwhile Canon took a different approach where they had changed or failed and I found that difference interesting after the minimal changes Legends tended to commit to. Btw, I like both interpretations, and I think I’m overall glad we got two versions of these characters to compare.

grey jedi's make sense if you look at legends

If people would ignore their passions and look at this situation realistically, they would probably find that Gray jedi are honestly the most realistic of the 3 orders. The Jedi order has proven itself to be dogmatic, arrogant, and inflexible, and that is what caused them to fall. The Sith are excessive, angry, and overly emotional and passionate. Gray jedi are the balance despite what many people would say.

To your Force powers argument: Luke literally uses Force choke on a Gamorrean guard in RoTJ. And he's clearly not evil. So Force powers don't seem to be restricted even in canon. It's just more likely that Jedi, being good, never considered electrocuting someone...

Grey Jedi makes 100% sense. Look at Anakin he was on the light side then he went to the dark side then he went back to the light towards his death when he yeeted the emperor off the bridge. You can do some dark but you cannot fully immerse yourself in the darkness. Just like you can do some light without fully immersing yourself into the light. The closest real world example I can give is the Viking they can rape and pillage foreigners when they are raiding but they cannot do it when they are back in their country because women have rights back then. That's the closest example I can get that you can be dark sometimes but not true evil. The Jedi were too light meaning they were willing to ignore peoples suffering for the greater good of the Galaxy. That's not okay you're to give everybody fair treatment not just one group of people like the Senate. In Canon there was the 25000 years BBY comic series about the Jed'ai order which by definition was Grey. They had two moons one of darkness and one of light. If you were too light sided you would go to the dark side moon to get some darkness into you. On the other side if you were too dark you would go to the light side and have the light side go into you. This comic book series is canon.

I would have preferred if the power vacuum killed the empire by it collapsing in on itself and the new republic just acting as defenders but letting them kill each other with a few escaping. Sure Cinder sounds like it but it was a continuation of the war. A civil war stickly in the empire as it falls apart and the new republic just sneakly gaining influence just sounds better.

Great video dude I think I’m probably going to subscribe, but one thing I wanted to say, was about Jedi or those in balance with the force not being able to use dark side powers like electric judgement, Luke force chokes 2 of jabbas guards, while I pretty much agree with everything else you said I don’t think it’s too crazy to remain imbalance with the force while still, in very limited instances utilizing powers that are associated more with the “dark side” or natural negativity

That was an amazing video. I would love to hear your thoughts on what some people call light side sith.

The Old Republic is the greatest era of Star Wars.

Very good video! Would like to add that the Jedi order wasn't inherently flawed, but the individual Jedi's arrogance blinded them to the dark side. So when they say "the Jedi failed" its not a condemnation of the ideals, but of those flawrd being who espoused them.

I would have preferred the acolyte to be part of the grey jedi...instead of the society of magical women that use the force as a "thread"

Thank you! I've always hated the idea of Grey Jedi.

Good video. I already agreed with most of it going in. Minor nitpick/question though. 19:14 Wasn't the concept of emotional attachment ultimately proven good in Return of the Jedi? Luke's attachment to his father is what prevented him from giving up on Vader, which allowed him to save both Anakin and the Galaxy as a whole. I always saw this moment as the evidence that Ben and Yoda's stance against attachment (they wanted Luke to kill Vader because they had given up on him) was wrong.

I’m glad to see somebody acknowledge that the Jedi order circa the prequels wasn’t inherently flawed so much as just having been manipulated. As much as I like the idea, it never seemed intentional on Lucas’s part and more just bits of accidental subtext that other writers picked up on.

THE DAUGHTER (The Light Side) THE FATHER (The Grey Or The Balance) THE SON (The Dark Side) THE BENDU The One In The Middle. (Again The Grey). There is room for those who choose balance, who's see only the Force, as neither good nor evil. If what you're saying is true why even have (THE FATHER?)

Wasn’t there a video of George Lucas himself saying that he doesn’t like that idea?

It's almost like this was a horrible fan idea that took a legends concept that they din't actually understand nor concept of balance in star wars to make edgy FanFictions.....but that can't be it

Indeed. Like Dark and Light side MAKE NO BALANCE. What is that supposed to mean? Kill just half the people of Alderaan? Kill just ever 2nd Youngling? Light and Dark are NOT a duality like Yin and Yang. Yin and Yang complement each other. There IS no balance of excluding concepts.

A very good video, but it seens like an atack to legends.

Sith Propaganda man, the Jedi don't talk about them cause they don't train people to be ignorant of the light, they train people to understand the force and show that the true power of the force comes through being better people and seeing how every action has an opposite reaction and the only way to stop the dark side from growing is to take every action seriously and with consideration, so their actions would be trying to fight the dark forces, so the opposite reaction would be more like you dont have to, instead of bolstering pride to create the view they are better than you they aren't supposed to think theyre better than you, they are supposed to believe their actions are soley for the benefit of everyone

‘I’m a grey Jedi’. Oh so you’re not disciplined enough to be a Jedi and you’re too scared to be a sith?

I am sorry I disagree! Not every situation is black/white most of the time it is a shade of grey! That is what the grey Jedi mean. They are middle and Qui Gon does exemplify some aspects of Grey Jedi! Passion/love can be a strength until it becomes an obsession. The Jedi hate passion where as the Sith strive for it, that is where Grey Jedi live in the middle. They are the balance between the dark and the light! They understand the dogmatic approach of the Jedi is wrong and over zealous approach of the Sith is wrong. You say Grey Jedi are not what Lucas attended! I say they exactly what he intended and provided it in the prequels. Lucas constantly talks about bringing a balance during the High Republic the shift was too far to the light and Empire made it too far to the dark. Luke is the ultimate Grey Jedi the perfection. One that understands the Jedi approach was Sith but the way is the middle.

The funny thing is, I feel like if you accept even part of the premise behind a Gray Jedi, the need for them actually goes away. Lucas may not have envisioned it this way, but it would be very possible to create a "Sith" character that does things that most people would consider good, and a "Jedi" character that most people don't respect. How do you do this? Well, all you have to do is create a context in which people would tend to admire a passionate person who seeks power, freedom, and victory... and revile someone who wants peace, knowledge, detachment, and a reward in the afterlife as cowardly or pathetic in some way. Like, for some real life examples, one could argue that someone like, say, Abraham Lincoln or General Grant was a lot closer to Sith ideals than Jedi ones, even if he used them for what most would consider a good cause. Or think of General Patton. Even Julius Caesar arguably did good things in Rome because of how corrupt the Senate was by the time he took power, though from what I gather George Lucas definitely doesn't see Caesar in a positive light at all and may be basing Palpatine on him. For the opposite? Well... think of someone like Neville Chamberlain in World War II... the guy who wanted "Peace in our time," and you could easily argue that he was a champion of peace, wisdom, detachment, and a reward in the afterlife over achieving earthly results. Yet, most people respect Patton a lot more. Bear in mind, I do get that within the lore, the Dark Side corrupts and doesn't let you pursue your own goals while using its power, that it replaces your will with something else over time, and that the Light Side is thus the only way to maintain your humanity for users of this "Force" he invented. But if a person were to look at the actual codes the Sith and Jedi follow and the ideals they strive for, there's no particular reason, other than Lucas saying so, why a passionate person who seeks power and victory would just be corrupted and evil regardless of their cause. And if you can look at the real world and see that it simply doesn't work this way, that the Jedi way is not something people consistently respect in real life and that a lot of our heroes in pop culture resemble the Sith more, you can probably start poking holes in Lucas's worldview and come up with a likable Sith who is somewhat brutal and power-hungry, ruthlessly pursuing ideals people agree with, without even NEEDING the Grey Jedi concept. On top of this, there is a very well-established concept that flies in the face of a lot of this... the traditional RPG difference between "black" magic and "white" magic essentially boiling down to the difference between offensive magic and defensive magic, and there being plenty of examples offensive magic being used for good and defensive magic used for a bad purpose if it's used to heal, say, a villain. The key to why the Dark Side is just bad in the Lucas worldview is that, for whatever reason, using the force the wrong way with the wrong emotions in mind automatically corrupts you and replaces your will with "something else," and keeps you from coming back from that. This wouldn't fly in any other setting where magic is a tool or where moral alignment is at all nuanced... for Lucas it's pretty black and white that there is one true path, and that if you stray, you're the same as the worst people almost immediately, your will being replaced by some generic "dark side" will.

I like the idea of grey Jedi for fan fiction or non canon games or roleplay. But I do agree that it doesn’t work in the actual canon universe