098 - Shelfington - Block Detection Thoughts
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5 ай бұрынWelcome to Ian's N Gauge channel!
In a previous video I talked about how I had plans to incorporate block occupancy detection into Shelfington, with the ultimate goal of achieving train automation.
In this video I’m going to explain my thinking on how I'm going to approach implementing block detection.
Thanks very much for watching.
Ian
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@philbrown3685 3 ай бұрын
Developing well Ian, I’m not sure I have the skills for this but it’s very interesting to see how you are progressing. All the best, Phil
@iansngauge 3 ай бұрын
Thanks Phil! I'm not sure I've got the skills yet either, but I guess we'll find out in the coming months! :) Cheers, Ian.
@bluemike52 5 ай бұрын
Had a bit of a fly by with this video. Its amazing how much has changed in the 50 years i last had a train set. Still enjoy watching your progress in your videos.
@iansngauge 5 ай бұрын
Hi Mike! Yeah, it's a bit of a niche subject, within a niche subject! I agree, there's lots changed during my 35 year break away from the hobby, but it's all very interesting and exciting! Thanks for staying with it! It won't be too long before there's some conventional stuff coming out, such as track laying, point wiring and adding scenery! All the best, Ian.
@nig87101 5 ай бұрын
Hi, Ian. Block detection is not for me, way above my knowledge grade! But, your explanation of it was really interesting, and I do know a lot more than I did 10 minutes ago! What I DO have knowledge of, is Peco plastic rail joiners. If I was in charge, I'd ban them by act of parliament! They are an absolute nightmare. I will probably ruin two or three on every joint used. I clean any rail ends, either factory or made by me, I have the excellent WHWW fishplate assistant, but the plastic is just too soft. I have used a Dremmel to cut rails, but even though I was using the flexible extension, the hight of the rail meant that I ended up cutting it at a slight angle, which made quite I wide gap. More practice would probably help. Looking forward to the next ep. Thanks.
@iansngauge 5 ай бұрын
Hi Nigel! Thank you! Haha! Not a fan of the plastic insulated rail joiners eh? I've got a couple of bags of them, but haven't actually tried them yet! I think I'm going to go down the Dremel route! I'm wondering if a jig could be made to help out with cutting down perpendicular to the rail? I need to get some cutting discs - do you know which ones you have used? I can then start practicing! All the best, Ian.
@flinthillsmodelrailway 5 ай бұрын
Hi Ian. Each output of the YD6016LN is a feedback and not a block. A block can be made up of 1,2 or 3 feedbacks. So in your example the siding can be 1 block made up of 3 feedbacks.
@iansngauge 5 ай бұрын
Hi Geoff! I thought this subject might catch your eye! :) Ah, okay, but who decides that there can only be 3 feedbacks per block? Is this an iTrain / JMRI thing? I guess I'm a little confused by the terminology, but I've got the right idea about the wiring, right? Cheers, Ian.
@collinsngauge5493 4 ай бұрын
Hi Ian that was interesting, In the earlier days they didn't do block's for point's, but now they say a point needs to be a block and I'm doing my point's as block's, If you have a row of point's say 6 at one end of a fiddle yard you do them all together as one block that is so if a train stops in that row of 6 point's then the software know not to let a train out of another line. They say make your block's as long as your longest train so you know that train fits in any block, but in the model layout world that doesn't happen and not on my layout. Now if you had a 3 feet of track then a point then 1 foot of track you can put those three components together as 1 block. If you want to if you have a length of track were you could park say 3 locos on you can have 3 blocks but all block's need feedbacks and you can have 2 feedbacks to one block for more accuracy in stopping and feedbacks cost's nothing because it's software. Were you said to have 3 block's maybe on 1 length of track so a train could start to break the software or you software you write knows the length of track and were the train is so knows were to stop it. Sorry for the long comment, for me and my layout automation is a must and with itrains i can run some trains automatically and some manually, i believe all three type of itrains software is free on updates, but i do get mine for free and it tells me when there is one. Colin
@iansngauge 4 ай бұрын
Brilliant! Thanks very much Colin! You've now confirmed what my thinking was, although I think I used the wrong terminology in the video! I think when I said block, I should have said feedback section! I now plan on having blocks between all of my points with multiple feedbacks! I'll then wire each point separately, unless they're in combinations, such as a fiddle yard entrance / exit! I'll take another look at iTrain, but last time I looked, you got free upgrades per minor version update, but you had to pay again for a major version update - so v1.0, v1.1, v1.2, etc were free, but you had to pay for v2.0! I'll probably start out using JMRI before delving into coding my own stuff! Thanks again! All the best, Ian.
@tonyshield5368 5 ай бұрын
There are also Hall effect magnetic sensors which have the benefits of the opto sensors, different disadvantages include the need to have a magnet in each vehicle, but can easily count the number of locos/waggons with fewer debounce issues than opto sensors. So can count the consist to make sure all is present - waggon counting with opto's is hard. Hall efffects also work with Arduinos which inturn can send CMRI to wherever, and also provide local interlocking of points and signals.
@iansngauge 5 ай бұрын
Hi Tony! Yeah, I'm guessing there are half a dozen different ways of performing block detection, and I'm not discounting any of them! I just picked what I thought were the two most popular methods, and went from there! I quite like the idea of wagon counting! The problem with a lot of these sensing methods is having to locate the sensors beneath the track, which is a problem when one fails! Thanks for the ideas, I'll definitely keep them in mind! Cheers, Ian.
@markburton3306 5 ай бұрын
About a million years ago as a teenager into trains, computers and electronics I thought about Hall effect sensors for detecting locos. Sadly, it was only ever a thought experiment.
@FrankC321 5 ай бұрын
Block detection, way to advanced for me. I'll enjoy and learn how you do these electrical skill sets. Plus the interesting comments from the followers.
@iansngauge 5 ай бұрын
Hi Frank! It's way too advanced for me too - at the moment - hence this being a video of thoughts, rather than action!!! The comments have been brilliant so far, as they usually are, and we can all learn by reading them - I've already learned that my "block" terminology is wrong for instance! Lol! All the best, Ian.
@JamesPetts 5 ай бұрын
Also - don't confuse the advice not to put turnouts in *blocks* with the idea that they should not have occupancy detection. The two are quite different. Turnouts can have their own occupancy detection without being in blocks, as such.
@iansngauge 5 ай бұрын
Hi again James! Yes, that's a good point - ha! As long as I leave turnouts in their own isolated "section" with their own wiring, I can add them to their own feedback devices when required! Or at least that's the plan! Cheers, Ian.
@PaulTHedley 5 ай бұрын
Hi Ian, I've also been investigating options for myself as my end goal is to automate the control of trains and I'm also modeling in N scale. In summary I've now decided to go with iTrain as the automation software, and I'll use the LoDi set of products, for all hardware {command, point switching and current detection}. Happy to discuss further if your interested in my reasoning.
@iansngauge 5 ай бұрын
Hi Paul! I've looked at iTrain before, and while it seems very capable, it's very expensive, and you never know when a new version will make the current one obsolete! I'll probably start with JMRI before delving into creating something for myself that will work specifically with Shelfington! I've not heard of Loki products, but I'd be happy to hear more about them, and why you chose to go with them in combination with iTrain! Cheers, Ian.
@PaulTHedley 5 ай бұрын
@@iansngaugesorry slight typo, Updated now, meant to say LoDi
@iansngauge 5 ай бұрын
@@PaulTHedley- Ah! Haha! That'll explain why I've never heard of Loki before then!!! I've seen the LoDi kit in action on Colin's channel (Woodthorp International) but I'd be happy to hear your rationale for using them in combination with iTrains! Cheers, Ian.
@exehavenharbour 5 ай бұрын
Hi Ian, I’m looking forward to you putting in block detection, for me, way to complicated and it’s giving me a brain dump even thinking about it!!!!😂. Having said that mate, it was an interesting video and I know that you certainly find it very interesting and like I say am looking forward to how you go about it. I’m with Euan here though, I think it’s another delaying tactic for laying track! 🤣, I shall be off to basic track laying this morning without a care in the world for block detection 😁, cheers Ian, John
@iansngauge 5 ай бұрын
Good morning John! Haha! A delaying tactic indeed, how very dare you? Lol! Block detection is a little too confusing at the moment, and I'm hoping to learn more from the comments! I just need to know enough to put the wiring in place as I lay the track, and I can sort the actual sensor stuff out at a later date! Good luck with your _basic_ track laying! Lol! All the best, Ian.
@exehavenharbour 5 ай бұрын
🤣
@lynganddistrict 5 ай бұрын
Ian - each turnout will need to connected as a separate block - this so the software can detect its state and set it as part of the run programme you select. My idea is to detect the loco and set the CV to slow it down within a set time so only need one current sensor per block - if it happens that way I will be chuffed but we are talking a few years away before that happens. I had already bought the DR version and have three of them and I have had to use them all just for the four tracks laid so far - I will need to think about how I do the fiddle yard and TMD but then I may just have that as a play area. What I did do is on a long length of track between each turn out I soldered multiple wires for connectivity but then joined them up as one and ran one wire to the detection unit. What I do know id that block detection hurts my brain when thinking about it. Regards Steve
@iansngauge 5 ай бұрын
Hi Steve! Yes, I'll be wiring the turnouts separately, so will have the ability to keep them outside of other blocks! The reason why I showed three "sections" between the points was to have an initial detection section, then a middle section to slow down, and then a third section to cut all power should the train reach it, just in case the train hadn't stopped! as expected Obviously I'm no expert, but you may struggle with momentum taking the train out of the block, depending on whether the loco is under load or not! Like I said in the video, there are certain areas of the layout where I'm not concerned about block detection, but I'll definitely be wiring up fiddle yards and any TMD's! And yes, it hurts my brain when thinking about it too! Lol! All the best, Ian.
@Elvenhome 5 ай бұрын
Hi Ian. Hmm I think I'll just watch and learn from afar. Stephen
@iansngauge 5 ай бұрын
Hi Stephen! Haha! I understand! I'm learning myself from the excellent comments! Need to sort out my terminology, but otherwise, I think track laying is well within my grasp now! Cheers, Ian.
@endoorrailway 5 ай бұрын
Hi Ian, Interesting thoughts there, and as I haven't gone down the automation route myself it's highlighting things I haven't thought about much. Have you ruled-out the cheap type of current sensors that you commented on in one of my videos? Obviously they work with Arduino / Raspberry Pi, but I don't know whether or not they'd work with one of the other systems you mentioned. I see from other comments that there are nuances around what constitutes a block! I suppose when I've heard "block" in the context of the full-size railway it's been "block signalling", so perhaps it's the signalling boundaries that people or control software are thinking about when they hear "block"? In your video's context of train detection I just took it to mean detection of occupancy of a particular section of track, which could be of any length. I look forward to seeing how you develop this side of things, including exactly how you implement control 🙂
@iansngauge 5 ай бұрын
Morning Jonathan! I haven't so much discounted the cheap current sensors, as wondered how I could utilise them in a complete system! LocoNet or Railcom seem to be the way to go, so then it would be down to what interfaces the DCC controller supported, and how I could connect an Arduino / Raspberry Pi to the network! So, I'm basically concentrating on how I can wire the track, while putting off the decisions about which current sensing products and interfaces to use! I see quite a few experiments along these lines in my future! In terms of the word "block", yes, I was using it in terms of a contiguous section of track, in particular between two sets of points, but it seems some have interpreted it in the "block signalling" context, which is something I'd not considered! Oh well! All the best, Ian.
@thegrowler-blackwoodngauge 5 ай бұрын
Fascinating to hear your brain dump 😅. Have to admit you lost me when you started talking about raspberry pie ! That said this block detection malarkey should provide a stay of execution for track laying😅. As always an enjoyable video Ian. 😊
@iansngauge 5 ай бұрын
Morning Euan! Mmmm! Raspberry pie! Yummy! :) Yeah, a short delay to track laying! I've pretty much got to know how I'm going to wire the track before I can lay it, hence putting this video out before I begin! I've got some interesting comments so far so the delay shouldn't be for too long! Cheers, Ian.
@flinthillsmodelrailway 5 ай бұрын
Also if you are looking to use railcom ?? Which I would suggest you would if you are going down the automation idea as railcom offers you 2 way communication then the YD6016LN does not support railcom.
@iansngauge 5 ай бұрын
Hi again Geoff! I was only using the YD6016LN as an example for the wiring, as it's obviously a LocoNet device! However, as I understand it, going down the Railcom route will limit the decoders I can use, as not all of them support it due to licencing costs and restrictions! I know Zimo decoders support it, and that's what I try and use in my locos, but I don't use them exclusively! Cheers, Ian.
@ngaugefouroaksstreetstatio6932 5 ай бұрын
Very interesting Ian, your explanation is great, I'm guessing the detectors are then wired into the main unit. Also do DCC concepts do something similar?
@iansngauge 5 ай бұрын
Hi Chris! Thanks! Yes, the detector would be wired via LocoNet in the case of my example, back to the main DCC controller, my DR5000! You could then use the USB interface on the DR5000 to connect a computer running JMRI / iTrains etc, to do something, such as change a signal, or a point, or slow down or stop a loco, or simply display that a block is occupied on a control panel! That's the theory anyway! I think DCC Concepts do have some sort of detector, but haven't looked into it... yet! :) All the best, Ian.
@fladder1 5 ай бұрын
Ah, you forget another positive to using current sensing. thanks to the gaps your rails will have enough expansion gaps for the track to expand during summer. And as others have mentioned, a block is made up from 1 or more sections. As i'm actually in the proces of laying track and and wiring; I was planning on using a github project I found for train detection, but have since moved to detectors from roco, as I'm already in possession of their Z21 controller, and as I'm an IT guy, I can't stand the thought of not having the most information possible. Which got me to this decision; All the rail detectors will be railcom capable (the added advantage is that as far as i can tell the Roco CAN bus uses normal UTP cables, makes for easy wiring for me) And every point, slip and diamond crossing will also be wired for detection. And I will be using that github project (which uses Loconet) for point position feedback. Added advantage of buying detectors instead of building; you get to play sooner!
@iansngauge 5 ай бұрын
Thanks for the info! That's interesting about the expansion gaps! I'm probably only going to have the gaps in the positive rails though - so now you've got me thinking that may cause problems! Yeah, the terminology is a little confusing! My understanding is, that in terms of wiring, the sensor inputs could be wired anywhere on the layout! However, a block is something that the software needs to know about, and is just a section of contiguous track that has sensor feedback at particular positions along it! Moving to a Z21 controller is still a possibility for me, but doesn't going down the Railcom route limit your choice of decoders, as not all of them support Railcom due to licencing issues? Oh, and which current detectors are you using? Cheers, Ian.
@fladder1 5 ай бұрын
@@iansngauge I've made a habit of soldering wires to both sides of the track. As you say one side is a common and not necessarily needed. However, I believe it will greatly reduce the chance of having problems with cutout. And it hardly makes wiring more difficult. As for the railcom/Can bus option, yes it's somewhat of a buy-in. Though other companies do sell railcom capable detectors (including Yamorc). But a hobby is allowed to cost money, and buying into this system reduces complexity for me, which is also worth something. I'll still be building and programming some of my electronics, just not as much as I was planning on in the beginning. And it's still enough to keep me busy for quite some time; soldering, programming P-ic's, mounting servos, programming them, making my own turntable, programming the Arduino for that, wiring... Lighting, scenery. Programming whatever software I'll be using to running everything!! That's a whole other can of worms I'm finding out! As for that github project if you are interested, search for "Geert Giebens diy Loconet"
@fladder1 5 ай бұрын
@@iansngauge almost forgot; the Roco detector I'm using has the designation 10808
@iansngauge 5 ай бұрын
@@fladder1 - Thanks again for the info! I'll probably end up doing the same regarding the soldering, like you say, it's hardly difficult! I see the Yamorc Railcom current sensor has been delayed, although this time they cite production capacity rather than a required redesign as the reason! I'll take a look at that Roco detector, and the LocoNet project! I'm quite looking forward to writing some software of my own, as I'll be on more familiar ground, but find the whole subject of train automation quite an exciting, if expensive, prospect! Cheers, Ian.
@fladder1 5 ай бұрын
@@iansngauge yes, exciting yet expensive indeed! If I were you I'd do some research about brands with railcom capable detectors. My reasoning for going with Roco was simply; 1: the controller supports Loconet 2: I live in the Netherlands and wanted a brand that's readily available 3: a brand that's been in business long enough that I can be relatively certain it will be in business for the foreseeable future. And only while building my model railway and those electronic projects (had to design a current sensor PCB) did I become enamored by the idea of railcom. And gradually realising that my spare time for my hobbies is at an all time premium I decided that buying wasn't such a bad thing. But I strongly recommend doing research, as I can imagine that other brands are easier to get in the UK. Such as digitrax, top of mind as Charlie uses that on Chadwick.
@hayridgemodelrail4046 5 ай бұрын
Good afternoon Ian, a very insightful video, as you know I am a great fan of the electronics side of model railways, so it was very interesting to listen to your views on the subject of block detection. I am using a simpler version of reed switches combined with signals to control my blocks which is designed mainly as a stand alone system. I look forward to seeing more on this subject. All the best Allan
@iansngauge 5 ай бұрын
Hi Allan! Thanks! I find that using electronics in model railway construction is an interesting subject! With block detection I seem to have got the terminology slightly wrong, but I hope most of what I said made sense!! I've looked at reed switches before, not for block detection, but rather helping me turn lights on and off in buildings! I haven't quite sorted that out yet, but there'll be a video at some point!!! I'm happy to have sorted the wiring of blocks out though, as now I've got no excuses not to start laying track! Cheers, Ian.
@JamesPetts 5 ай бұрын
Current sensors > optical sensors
@iansngauge 5 ай бұрын
Hi James! I concur! Ian.