12V Sodium Battery Teardown. Who would have thought what I found!?

Рет қаралды 22,662

2 ай бұрын

Today, we are disassembling the Muller Energy 12V #Sodium #Battery on my workbench. What I found really surprised me! Glad, we could connect to the BMS and had a look at the default settings the manufacturer thought are useful for this battery. Very interesting.
I also do a full charge and discharge test of this battery, taking the curve and create a spreadsheet which shows the voltage in relation to the SOC for this 12V battery. You can quickly read which voltage corelates to which SOC for both charging and discharging (OK, the charge curve did not work for some reason in my test, a second test will follow, and I will update the spreadsheet).
Disclaimer: The battery shown in the video was provided by Muller Energy but not designed by them. They just bought readily available batteries on the market for testing purposes.
Link to the Voltage-SOC Spreadsheet:
docs.google.com/spreadsheets/...
Test data and graphs for this battery test:
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github.com/sfstar/hass-victron
Sodium 32140 cells for your own projects (USD5-6 at time of writing this):
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ZKE-Tech Battery Tester and Analyser:
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Пікірлер: 168

@sventenraa4026 2 ай бұрын

No problem Andie and thanks for your quick replies on the issue report. Happy we could identify the issue and resolve it so quickly. Bonus being that future out of spec data should now no longer crash the integration. I think a lot of users are going to like the stability improvement this will bring.

@maritzm 2 ай бұрын

Brilliant to see this sort of collaboration. Now I'm keen to see the update on my side. (still on 0.1.7) ;)

@OffGridGarageAustralia 2 ай бұрын

Nice work and outcome. Loving the integration!

@junkerzn7312 2 ай бұрын

The tester can't pull completely to ground. That is fairly typical. There is usually a diode drop (either internal a transistor or an actual diode), or if they are using a FET there is an impedance issue this close to ground that is limiting the current. Testers have to have serious protection and reverse-voltage circuits so there are usually two or three stages that the current path runs through. So, for example, there might be two or even three FETs in the output path (two back-to-back for reverse voltage protection and one is the current driver). Another possibility is that it actually is closer to ground but the voltage measurement of the tester has an offset error. Also very typical. The wires have resistance too but that doesn't account for the full voltage it is reading.

@subsgob00m 2 ай бұрын

Was looking for this comment before I made my own. Glad I can save the typing!

@lui_sam2324 Ай бұрын

Does it harm the sodium battery to reach such low voltage and heat up to 30°?

@teardowndan5364 2 ай бұрын

The battery are getting warm because their internal resistance rises sharply once you get into deep-discharge territory. The chemistry is still producing 1.5-2V/cell but you are only measuring ~0.4V/cell due to the internal I*R voltage drop. As others have pointed out, the ~0.4V end-of-discharge plateau is just a tester limitation: your tester is unable to pass more than 2.4A with 460mV of input voltage. Its circuitry probably has a 100mOhm current measurement shunt and a discharge MOSFET with ~80mOhm of Rdson. A BJT also has about 200mV of Vcesat which would cause current to be limited in a same manner under the same conditions.

@lui_sam2324 Ай бұрын

Does it harm the sodium battery to reach such low voltage and heat up to 30°?

@teardowndan5364 Ай бұрын

@@lui_sam2324 Most sodium batteries I have read about don't mind heat until 70+C. Voltage-wise, they are all supposed to be fine with being stored fully discharged.

@lui_sam2324 Ай бұрын

@@teardowndan5364 thank you so much

@SolAce-nw2hf 2 ай бұрын

Nice to see that these sodium batteries just work, even if the price needs to drop before it makes sense. I just saw the Biwatt PowerNest W1 which is a hybrid solar inverter and a 3.6 kWh sodium-ion battery all-in-one system that is fine to be installed outside in cold climates. I want one...

@OffGridGarageAustralia 2 ай бұрын

Yeah, again, cold temperatures and sodium... the benefit is limited.

@jimthvac100 2 ай бұрын

Cool so it looks like they got a jump on the competition to release an inverter that has a wide voltage range for the battery.

@SolAce-nw2hf 2 ай бұрын

@@OffGridGarageAustralia I live in the Netherlands, where a very cold sunny day is nothing unusual and putting LFP batteries inside the home does not make any sense. Heating the shed in such conditions is also a silly idea. I could just not use the LFP batteries in winter, but that is when my home heat pump wants power in the evening. Also from what I read the Sodium Ion cells will not produce their own oxygen supply if something does go wrong, so that's a big reassurance for me. But I guess we will have to wait and see if the prices drop to a level where LFP can not compete anymore and I can just stack Sodium-Ion to the shed ceiling to compensate for the limited energy density.

@robinhood4640 2 ай бұрын

@@SolAce-nw2hf I think lots of people are waiting for these. People who really don't care if the battery is the size of a small fridge, or the size of a small bus.

@SolAce-nw2hf 2 ай бұрын

@@robinhood4640 Well, a small bus would be a problem, but space in the shed is a lot cheaper than space inside the home. Aside from that, an LFP battery inside the home would not pass the WAF test anyway.

@dominicmaddox95 2 ай бұрын

Heya Andy! I've been enjoying all your videos for ages now and will be building my own battery with some REPT cells (hope I won't regret this). 16s4p (1280Ah) I Have been talking with Candy from JKBMS and they are working on a DIY 5kwh, 10kwh and15kwh box/kit/container thing. It is not ready yet, but would love to see a 1st look at their debut model, if you can snag one as think their BMS and general customer care is good so thinking to support and try them out. It could be a few weeks before they are ready, but they have sent me some very early info.

@catch22frubert 2 ай бұрын

Hey Andy! Nice to see you testing this newer chemistry that has at least some potential. From the specs i saw, there is definitely room for improvement over time with refinement. Look how far LiFePO4 has come since the earliest days. I was under the impression that the sodium ion chemistry was good at charging and discharging fast without creating too much heat because it has a low internal resistance. I guess i might had been a little underwhelmed compared to what lithium titanate can do. I'd love to see you build a nice extreme high output lithium titanate battery and see you power something ridiculous like a 20,000 watt car audio amplifier or maybe charging your tesla at full power for a short time from a big bank of lithium titanate batteries that can handle the amp draw.😂 Oh man. You got me hooked on battery tech and testing Andy 😅. I already know what these lithium cells are capable of, but it doesn't stop me from wanting to test everything and build awesome batteries. LiFePO4 certainly has the crown of lithium king in my opinion right now, but they are all useful in different applications and different situations.

@krg038 2 ай бұрын

Super cool testing Andy.

@pragmaticcosmic2826 2 ай бұрын

Check that the pins on the connectors for the battery tester are properly making solid connection with the plugs as I found mine to be loose and this could explain the random current dropouts during your test.

@pragmaticcosmic2826 2 ай бұрын

Andy I had my tester on the repair bench due to it not working and found that there are 2 parallel Schottky diodes in series with the power MOSFET. These diodes will determine the lowest voltage obtainable.

@volodumurkalunyak4651 2 ай бұрын

1S battery: current lowers at 0.6V battery voltage. 4S battery pack: current lowers at 0.6V battery pack voltage. Looks like tester limitation for me.

@nndata 2 ай бұрын

Thank You Andy for the comprehensive testing. But here at the not hot Sunny end of the world (Norway), the really interesting parameter of this battery chemistry is the possibility to charge at sub zero temperatures. We can have down to 0,2 KWh/M2/ day in December, but at subzero off-grid cabins this can still charge enough during a week to power LED lights on weekends maybe. It seems from the BMS that changing will stop at -15 C and resume at -10 C. Could you test Sub-Zero charging too?

@OffGridGarageAustralia 2 ай бұрын

Thank you. I can't really test sub zero charging. I can place the battery in the freezer but then it's at -18° and needs to warm up a bit again. The time window for testing would be very small before the battery gets too warm again. I need a sponsor for a climate chamber...

@evil17 2 ай бұрын

@@OffGridGarageAustraliayou could use an external thermostat with 240vac outlet to plug the freezer into with a sensor run inside freezer space & just close the door on sensor wire for a temporary & more precise temp controlled climate chamber.

@karstenr.7450 2 ай бұрын

Hey Andy, I did a small test by connecting my Ebc tester to my laboratory power supply and turning the voltage towards 0 volts. From around 0.63v the current also drops here. So it's not the batteries but the tester.

@simoesp 2 ай бұрын

@Andy if you see it right in the bottom of the batteries where they are spot welded those spirals are "fuses"

@rcinfla9017 2 ай бұрын

You may start growing sodium dendrites at very low cell voltage. As long as you do not leave the cells at low voltage for a long period of time it is not too damaging. Again, the 0.35v limit on discharge voltage is limitation on tester current sinking circuit. Current sink feedback control runs out of dynamic range. This is same for any number of series cells total stack voltage. It may go a little lower for lower discharge current setting on tester. Looks like the battery pack minimum discharge voltage is set by when the BMS fizzles out due to lack of sufficient supply voltage to BMS. Doesn't really matter because any inverters probably will LBCO before it reaches 9.2v battery voltage. Most 12v inverters shut down at 10.5v.

@bu5hm4nn 2 ай бұрын

Yes, not enough voltage to open the transistors, FET's or diodes they use in there.

@EngineersLoveChange 2 ай бұрын

Thank you for your efforts! I watch your channel all the time! Would love to see some extensive testing on amps (AH) throughput if possible with your 5s4p Sodium 12v battery. My knee-jerk answer to this is a maximum(?) constant(?) 25 amps - which makes it a non-competitor with the prismatic cells unless they make that size / throughput of a (prismatic size) cell in sodium-ion :) - Thank you! Thank you! great work! :)

@wayne8113 2 ай бұрын

Thanks Andy

@ClausMallorca 2 ай бұрын

Your wife must be very patient! Almost all the day in the garage 😮

@OffGridGarageAustralia 2 ай бұрын

Yes, I have FWS (Full Wife Support)

@junkerzn7312 2 ай бұрын

In the U.S., for weather, its in Fahrenheit, probably forever. But for everything engineering / electric / electronics / chips / physics / etc.... that's all in Celsius or Kelvin in the U.S..

@NexGen-3D 2 ай бұрын

Awesome information, thanks for sharing, I feel these batteries in order to be more useful, will need a regulator to narrow the voltage swing better, I find 16v a little to high and 9v a little too low if your looking to replace lead acid batteries or LFI, but they are still very impressive for early products, hopefully once they are in full production the price will drop, I will feel safer stacking these up next to my home vs Lithium, energy density is fine for home storage, may even be okay for caravan/motorhome use as well, will be real interesting to see abuse tests, see how long they can sit after full charge, and how they perform after multiple zero volt fatigue tests, these and the whole thermal runaway are reasons I have not invested in mass home storage yet.

@anthonyrstrawbridge 2 ай бұрын

The mobility scooter comes alive at Higher voltage ( the speed controller often can handle nearly double voltage) it's said, they make torque and rpm gains consistent with the increased voltage. Not sure about the lighting though ( nor seat lifts). Generally they creep along at an honest bottom voltage. Anyway, charging to 4 or better volts per cell (8S) should be just enough to remain st the design speed up steep inclines and in colder weather.

@arrongrist868 2 ай бұрын

Interesting Video. Just as a quick comparison the same size cells in LiFePo are 15Ah instead of 10Ah. The Sodium chemistry and and manufacturing processes are likely to mature in the coming years and we will see an increase in energy density. Hopefully the Sodium chemistry might prove to have some safety benefits over Lithium. Enjoy the Autumn!

@perdonomai8060 2 ай бұрын

Thanks! I think the best think for sodium will be the life cycle, price and safety. Also we need another math formula to calculate the $/Wh something like $ * Cycles / W. Patented Natron's energy sodium bluepack claims 50-100K life cycles, this at least x5 times of the best lithium life, so think about energy density again! It's still early for sodium but I think it is a clear win for solar systems.

@staling06 2 ай бұрын

Brilliant Stuff!

@jimthvac100 2 ай бұрын

Good review I decided to subscribe. Thinking unless they start making inverters capable of working at much lower voltage these sodium batteries are going to be limited to about 50% of usable capacity. I am sure there will be some uses like lights like you mentioned that will still work ok. The charge and discharge curve reminds me a lot of a capacitor.

@Stefanfj 2 ай бұрын

Andy, what is the integrating period for the ZKE tester's data? Perhaps this unit is pulling the battery below a bias voltage threshold, causing the current to stop, then recovering before pulling it below the threshold again - but due to the data sampling and integration rate, the voltage curve is smooth and the current curve is just dropping to the new average? This is similar to how PWM can control the speed of a motor without causing noticeable jerking behaviour?

@clarencewiles963 2 ай бұрын

Just a side note 82.3k just saying it is moving 😊

@theanimalsfarm5911 2 ай бұрын

sei bravissimo!!!

@ellingolsen3194 2 ай бұрын

I guess that what you see at the end of discharging the cell is the drain-to-source saturation voltage.

@mobilemechanix1 2 ай бұрын

Thanks!

@OffGridGarageAustralia 2 ай бұрын

Thanks a lot, Ray!

@PlexMulti 2 ай бұрын

Welcome

@RichardSteigmann 2 ай бұрын

Nice Zollstck Andy 👍😅

@mraksi 2 ай бұрын

The limited Ampere is on the red graph, could the battery have overheated? Maybe BMS tried to stop/slow the charge? When the cell cooled down, it continued charging...

@KenCool57 2 ай бұрын

At approximately 5:40 you noted that they turned off the "Bal. only when charging". To me that means they will be balancing on both the charge and discharge portion of the cycle.

@jeffschroeder4805 2 ай бұрын

I think that those coils on the bottom straps are fuses. Don't some LiIon car batteries use something similar so each cell is fused separately?

@OffGridGarageAustralia 2 ай бұрын

Ah, could be....

@clarencewiles963 2 ай бұрын

I’m looking forward to the recovery.

@cdonuts7335 2 ай бұрын

The whole home assistant failed because Andy had a flat button cell battery in a voltage/ temp monitor! That's hilarious

@OffGridGarageAustralia 2 ай бұрын

I found this too😆

@cdonuts7335 2 ай бұрын

@@OffGridGarageAustralia I should also add I also find it amazing that you were able to track the fault down amongst all the stuff going on!

@patrickday4206 2 ай бұрын

Lithium titanate is 6p i like them best 30,000 cycles super safe from puncture and over heating works at freezing temperatures and can be discharged to zero without problems 5c rates

@w0ttheh3ll 2 ай бұрын

A friend of mine had a powerbank die. When we opened it up, it was an 4S8P 18650 configuration with one defective cell. Killed the whole block of 8, thankfully no fire. The cell looks like it did leak some electrolyte.

@Dutch_off_grid_homesteading 2 ай бұрын

Heya, nice test so I was wrong thinking it would be the prismatic cell's they are cylindric cell's lol gone wait till they are cheaper

@OffGridGarageAustralia 2 ай бұрын

What do you want to do with prismatic cells though?

@fdsa3f3cas3w 2 ай бұрын

Why do you always use Ah as you measure of SOC? Wh would be better? When the voltage varies so much Wh will be very different. I would think energy is what is important to everyone rather than just amps.

@MMMM2MMMM2MMMM 2 ай бұрын

Hi Andy, would combining the two battery's be complimentary? Once i read Li-ion would benefit if it was combined with LTO, Hi Amp + Hi Voltage capacity. Would this Na+ and LFP resolve in a better curve?

@OffGridGarageAustralia 2 ай бұрын

No different chemistries benefit from another. There is always a trade-off. It's like hybrid vehicles.

@maxicusc 2 ай бұрын

At least with sodium we won't have SOC level guessing problem, i.e. particularly cells balancing in a pack becomes much more robust.

@qaisars Ай бұрын

I need guidance to get my 20kW growatt on-grid PV inverter going with no grid available in my area. I have a 3kW hybrid PV inverter running already. Can you guide how can i achieve it? I am Electrical Engineer with telecom background. Can i use a VFD to convert single to 3 phase and feed the inverter? Would a 3 phase generator be needed? How big? I cant use my ongrid inverter despite spending significant money on it.

@dama054 2 ай бұрын

I would say the drop in current is due to heat in the battery causing greater internal resistance

@chuxxsss 2 ай бұрын

Morning Andy, we finally got solar rain to clear my panels. I've been doing some gold recovery from computer parts.

@markusviel6440 2 ай бұрын

Can the Sodium Battery replace a Lead Battery without changing anything "else" ? So is a "lead" Capable Battery Loader all you need for such a Battery Typ or do you need .... new Stuff ?

@ravil4230 2 ай бұрын

Can the graph anomaly be because of bms was set to balance when not charging?

@trygvetveit4747 2 ай бұрын

Nice test as always! Approx Price vs capacity? Anything about longevity? (You mentioned 80% capacity) looks like they will fit nicely between 14.4V(82%SOC) and say 11V (32.7SOC) so you will be able to charge this battery with a lead acid charger i think? And if this is correct you will be able to swap broken old Lead acid cells from a battery bank one by one instead of replacing every battery at once (real capacity of a lead acid is only 50% of given) So you will get the same amount of usable power /Energy from this battery as a 100Ah Lead Acid battery.. And in a RV or a boat the Wheigt savings for same usable energy will be fantastic.. Regards from Norway(soon sunny)

@joesmith1142 2 ай бұрын

Andy. When are you going to electrify the lawn mower? I could easily envision the Franken battery on wheels being towed behind it and a fancy green Tesla logo cut from astro turf mounted to the front.

@OffGridGarageAustralia 2 ай бұрын

Soon, my friend, soon. Collecting all the info for a while. I'm almost there... Ordered a Tesla motor for Quick Mowing Mode. I may need to look into using different tyres though😄

@joesmith1142 2 ай бұрын

@@OffGridGarageAustralia 😀

@xela001 2 ай бұрын

Hey great video 🎉🎉 Isnt the reason for the current finally going down during discharging that the anode is empty (the cathode is full)? There might just not be enough sodium ions left to support the 5 amps anymore... what do u think? I bought some 26700 sodium cells myself 😂😂 so exciting 😅

@OffGridGarageAustralia 2 ай бұрын

It's a tester limitation as many have pointed out in this and the last video.

@sijtzevanderheide5294 2 ай бұрын

Hello Andy…What are your thoughts about LTO batteries? Specs. seems better than Lifepo. Greetz from Fryslân 🎉

@Dionysios_Skoularikis 2 ай бұрын

What is your opinion for the REPT 280Ah cells? Thank you in advance!

@awesomusmaximus3766 2 ай бұрын

Cool

@ascii892 2 ай бұрын

If the cells aren't balanced at that low voltage, you can possibly discharge a cell to a negative voltage. I'm not sure if those salty batteries can do that without damage

@SpecialeW 2 ай бұрын

Nice magic trick at the beginning of the video

@OffGridGarageAustralia 2 ай бұрын

That wasn't a trick!

@boscodog4358 2 ай бұрын

Andy does any of your batteries ever quit working 😮? Just a thought why not a video on how to troubleshoot a 12 volt lifo.

@OffGridGarageAustralia 2 ай бұрын

No, never had a faulty cell or battery...

@VasilDomuschiev 2 ай бұрын

It would be interesting to see how does a sodium and lifepo4 batteries behave when connected in parallel . Like the 100Ah one that you showed for size comparison and the 50ah that you tested.

@w8stral 2 ай бұрын

Why would anyone want Sodium? Look at that voltage drop. Complete garbage. They make Lead acid look good.

@tommyt4173 2 ай бұрын

@@w8stral cheaper and safer?!

@w8stral 2 ай бұрын

They aren't either of those ... Losing 50% of your voltage is the opposite of safe as it means your power electronics are going to massively fail or be massively massively expensive and those components are already failing at greater rates than the batteries themselves. What idiots who havve never run battery systems do not know. @@tommyt4173

@OffGridGarageAustralia 2 ай бұрын

Sodium is not cheaper then LFP. And why is LFP unsafe??? Consider energy density, space requirement and voltage range (usable capacity). Prices would need to come down a lot to make it even interesting.

@tommyt4173 2 ай бұрын

@@OffGridGarageAustralia Who says LFP is unsafe? Sodium batteries are simply even safer. At the moment, sodium is not yet cheaper. But there is 400 times more sodium on earth. It will get cheaper. Sodium batteries have just come onto the market. Lithium has a few decades head start. There are sodium cells with a voltage range similar to LFP. Look at litonaDOTde. They sell "prussian white" type cathode material with an LFP like curve. Energy density is close enough to LFP that sodium would no longer be a disadvantage for home storage or large-scale industrial storage. If mass production really takes off so that prices fall, then sodium is the environmentally friendly alternative. Everyone wants sodium, we're just not quite there yet! 😁

@ValRigoli 2 ай бұрын

Andy in my 12V world I just don't see a practical place for these Sodium batteries, I'm very happy with the LiFePO4, and just can't see any practical advantages with the Sodium, again, in my 12V world 🙃

@joesmith1142 2 ай бұрын

Maybe Arctic regions where they need to be self sufficient? Maybe there is a sizeable niche market there? There is great percentages of land mass that is inhabited and stay very cold for good portions of the year. Maybe sodium will be able to store and deliver more energy than lead acid at the extreme temperatures and be more reliable for many more duty cycles than lead acid batteries. Just guessing. According to Andy;s chart, it looks like you could squeeze out 60% useable capacity for thousands of cycles compared with 40-50% for lead acid for only a few hundred cycles. Im having similar hard time though trying to see where sodium fits in the grand scheme of things in the battery world. I guess we neeed some extreme cold temperature testing to see.

@w8stral 2 ай бұрын

Voltage drop of Sodium makes them utter garbage for ANY application

@OffGridGarageAustralia 2 ай бұрын

Yes, we will see this in the next video when I connect the inverter. The result is...

@lui_sam2324 Ай бұрын

Does it harm the sodium battery to reach such low voltage and heat up to 30°?

@zacharycofer5929 2 ай бұрын

I believe they call that supercharger heat soak lol they always get slower the more an more hot laps u make

@wc4j 2 ай бұрын

meine Großmutter wird mich anschreien, weil ich so schlecht Deutsch kann, aber ich genieße deine beiden Kanäle

@OffGridGarageAustralia 2 ай бұрын

I have 4 channels though.

@wc4j 2 ай бұрын

@@OffGridGarageAustralia now I need to find them all

@peterle987 2 ай бұрын

as last comment - its the tester that is limited to discharge at such low voltages (MosFET physics) But: if the cells are getting bit unbalanced it gets dangerous near 0V, because if the first reached 0V the others with rest of voltage still pumps discharge current into a 0V battery. That was the best way to kill NiCd/NiMh in the past.... discharge a cell with no more voltage, causing permanent chemical damage - shown by changed polarity of the cell. So: discharging packs to such low voltages feels a very bad idea!

@zeropointbalance7366 2 ай бұрын

Interesting. This point points out the issue with going down to 0V on the battery (i.e. 4S battery): If you have cells of even slightly difference capacity, since you start top balanced, one cell will usually go to 0V first. It would have been cool to see what that cell (first to 0V) does in this battery: will voltage actually go negative? will it just absorb the energy and cause some internal changes (keeping the voltage at or near 0V)? Probably depends how long the reverse charge is applied. It would be interesting to know what a sodium cell will do if attempt is made to discharge below zero (i.e. charging in reverse, or in other words keeping discharge when 0V is reached). I know what NiCd/NiMh will do (not good as you pointed out, one effect seems to effectively short cell after a while).

@peterle987 2 ай бұрын

@@zeropointbalance7366 yes, would be an easy test, if Andy sacrifies a cell. He just needs to load the cell in reverse polarity, as it would be in a pack. Will it stay at 0V and survive or reverse polarity like NiCd/-MH 🤔

@michaelmedicworldoftanks33fps 2 ай бұрын

That battery would not get 50Ah running a TV using a common simple inverter. Any inverter would cut off after 30A comes out of that battery.

@OffGridGarageAustralia 2 ай бұрын

This will be in the next video...

@stephan.scharf 2 ай бұрын

Fan blades needs cleaning, pivot a drop of oil ... clock oil is fine.

@philbrooke-little7082 2 ай бұрын

I would worry taking them so low with no cell protection as, if there is an imbalance, you could end up reverse charging a cell.

@TheDefpom 2 ай бұрын

It seems the bms should cut off the discharge before the bms supply voltage drops too low to work… or the bms should be modified with a boost-buck converter to allow such a low voltage to actually be usable.

@OffGridGarageAustralia 2 ай бұрын

Nah, this was just for testing. No equipment out there would still be running at such a low voltage.

@TheDefpom 2 ай бұрын

@@OffGridGarageAustralia but the BMS has cutoff functions, and due to the BMS not working at the low voltages the cutoff functions didn't actually work.

@OffGridGarageAustralia 2 ай бұрын

@@TheDefpom Firstly, I thought the same, but if the BMS turns off, the charge/discharge MOSFETs will be turned off as well. So no further harm when this point is reached.

@fokcuk 2 ай бұрын

Any link to this battery to buy?

@Alex-dh2us 2 ай бұрын

@OffGridGarageAustralia Hallo, du hattest Mal ein Video gemacht wo du auch über deine "Einstellungen" des jk BMS an deinem 16 Zellen Akkublock (280 Ampere Stunden) gesprochen hast. Leider ist mein Englisch Grotten schlecht.... Könntest du deine Einstellungen und begründungen bitte nochmal auf deutsch zeigen / "beschreiben" ? Oder gibt es das schon ? Was ich grob verstanden habe ist das du nicht an die Grenzen des Akkus gehst und ein wenig "schonendere" Einstellungen gewählt hast...... Das währe auch mein Ziel bei meinem 16 Zellen 280 ah Akku. Vielleicht könntest du die BMS Einstellungen kurz zeigen und nochmal deine Gedanken deiner Einstellungen in deutsch dazu erklären ... Dein video war vom 30. 06.2022 ( Jk BMS: all settings and Menüs explained. How to Programm and Set Parameters) Lieben Gruß

@florius70 2 ай бұрын

👍👍👍

@jameshancock 2 ай бұрын

Every single prismatic lifepo4 is actually several pouches in parallel. This is not a real issue.

@LackofFaithify 2 ай бұрын

The F is for Freedom and Fractions.

@spielautomat9751 2 ай бұрын

einfach verzaubend :)

@AndrewBartram 2 ай бұрын

What’s the German channel?

@uziman3800 2 ай бұрын

Still don't think they will catch on at all. Let's say you are running a 12v fridge which have a low voltage cutoff of around 10v. You are only getting around 75 to 80% capacity from your battery.

@mullerenergy 2 ай бұрын

I don't see Na-ion batteries as 12V batteries, or at least not predominantly. I see them as 48V+ batteries, possibly even with inverters that don't exist yet, so that they can take advantage of the whole usable voltage range. I think the tipping point will be when sodium batteries are cheaper than lithium per Ah that's accessible by inverters that we have today. After that, it will no longer have to be a chicken or the egg issue, but then it will make sense to develop inverters specifically to take advantage of the sodium voltage range.

@lowriderbug 2 ай бұрын

from watching all your testing i feel the only use for sodium batteries would be as a starter battery in a car. due to the high voltage drop off they are never going to replace lithium for use is applications without charging. sodium will just not have enough usable voltage to give enough range/performance for electric car usage. if sodium batteries can be produced and sold for less than a lead acid battery they could find a very large market from replacement of "traditional" lead acid batteries.

@Bender-Rodriguez 2 ай бұрын

All these sodium cells are very disappointing :/ Absolutely no hope for something better.

@HybridShedIraq 2 ай бұрын

all cells LFP lithiom ion and sodium bring their 80% plus above 3v so it is not that catastrophic@@Bender-Rodriguez

@euverado4711 2 ай бұрын

Then I can install a 75 Ah Na-ion battery in the same housing without any problems. 4S5P with 15 Ah cells and SIB BMS 200 A. ?! Greetings from Germany

@louwrentius 2 ай бұрын

Bet a ton of inverters won’t be happy with this voltage range

@OffGridGarageAustralia 2 ай бұрын

Yes, the inverter can only use a fraction of the capacity of sodium batteries.

@davidpenfold 2 ай бұрын

Why not just send unknown codes to error out and ignore them rather than crashing the integration? I guess it means unknown errors get flagged more often though, so the software improves more rapidly.

@OffGridGarageAustralia 2 ай бұрын

Because Victron changes their protocol sometimes. It's better to test out which status code means what and get a clear message.

@paulcurtis5496 2 ай бұрын

Like# 323 - you snuck this video in!!!

@paulcurtis5496 2 ай бұрын

I agree, more cells to use the available space... I'm surprised that the density is so much lower than LiFePo4, but prismatic compared to jelly rolls matters too.

@electrodacus 2 ай бұрын

That plateau around 0.5V is from the tester and has nothing to do with the battery.

@mullerenergy 2 ай бұрын

🧂🔋 Great video as always, thanks very much for testing this prototype Andy! I certainly learned something about our own battery. Even with their current limitations (no pun intended) and the wide voltage range, I believe that sodium batteries have a great future ahead of them as stationary storage, simply because sodium is so much more abundant (there's roughly 1000 times as much sodium in the world as lithium). In time, this will likely mean that the cost of sodium batteries will become very affordable, as well as their environmental footprint being lower than that of lithium batteries (especially NMC lithium batteries). Given that sodium is a larger and heavier atom than lithium, it will likely always be a little bit bigger and a little bit heavier than lithium batteries, where I could definitely see EVs using predominantly lithium based batteries and sodium being used for stationary storage where a 10% lower energy density doesn't matter all that much. In a previous job 8 years ago, I was actually involved in and ARENA funded project that looked at the development of a sodium ion battery, that sadly never went to the commercial stage. But ever since then I've had great hopes for this technology and I was very happy when I was finally able to get our first (very much imperfect) sodium ion prototypes in. It will be very interesting to see how this technology develops and improves as it matures!

@cyberplebs6577 2 ай бұрын

🐸🐸🐸

@GapRecordingsNamibia 2 ай бұрын

Only 10A constant discharge?....... That is not much, they still have a ways to go....... And with a peak discharge time of only 3S is not that great..... And yes yes yes, I know this is still a new tech and needs time to develop...... Just saying at this time..... It's not all that great.... Thanks for all your efforts Andy....

@jalpa9642 2 ай бұрын

Well.....That was fun....learning more and more every day.... It's still NEW so please don't get negative when results aren't quite right.... we need these Batteries to be better than Lithium...? =)

@OffGridGarageAustralia 2 ай бұрын

Do we? Wait for LMFP...

@nicod974 2 ай бұрын

Puncture test?

@justdoityourself7134 2 ай бұрын

This.

@garys-half-baked-offgrid-dream 2 ай бұрын

And over charge.

@mullerenergy 2 ай бұрын

mullerenergy.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/IMG_20240320_130815-scaled.jpg This one was done at around 50% SOC. No fire, no sparking, but some steam. The electrolyte didn't smell particularly bad, but obviously fumes should not be inhaled.

@corglass 2 ай бұрын

Please do this!!

@user-kg6re1tc2c 2 ай бұрын

Okk send him the price of the battery then he'll definitely do that.

@SurakIII 2 ай бұрын

It seems like you are a little salty towards these sodium ion batteries. 🙂

@daveduncan2748 2 ай бұрын

Sodium cells are bigger, heavier, more expensive, have a terribly steep voltage curve that may not work well at powering many devices. Why not just stick with LFP? Sodium prices will likely come down over the next few years, but so will LFP prices--as more and more lithium mines come on line. I'm still just not seeing a great use case for Na+ over LFP.

@OffGridGarageAustralia 2 ай бұрын

Yes, I agree. Sodium will be interesting for certain applications if the price is very low but it will NOT replace lithium.

@ken-w 2 ай бұрын

Am I first?

@camielkotte 2 ай бұрын

Yes, you get a free frog 🐸 from Australia. You have to choose between 3 colors and promise to not feed them amps butts insects.

@OffGridGarageAustralia 2 ай бұрын

Yes, you are the first person asking if your are first....

@camielkotte 2 ай бұрын

We expect you to electrify your red mini tractor (lawnmower) any day now. 😊 Would be a great performance test for batteries. Not for sodium I suspect.

@OffGridGarageAustralia 2 ай бұрын

I was thinking of using Sodium cells for it, but the price is just too high. And I have only limited space for a 48V battery.

@w8stral 2 ай бұрын

What a garbage chemistry. Yikes, that voltage drop = complete Hell for an end user. Makes Lead Acid look decent and Nickel batteries look like gold in comparison before we talk about LiFePo4.

@kevinroberts781 2 ай бұрын

I don't use victron so I don't have to worry about that crap

@OffGridGarageAustralia 2 ай бұрын

Had a bad day?

@kevinroberts781 2 ай бұрын

@@OffGridGarageAustralia Honestly no.

@OffGridGarageAustralia 2 ай бұрын

@@kevinroberts781 then you must be a quite negative person in general and don't realise anymore when you had a bad day. Otherwise, your comment makes no sense.

@stevenbliss989 2 ай бұрын

There should be a lower voltage limit in discharge, the specs should tell you either directly, or by min discharge resistance (of the tester, NOT the battery).

@davidkettell1073 2 ай бұрын

After commenting on the English measrting system as archaic you then went ahead and used finger and thumb as gauges which is basically what the English system was based on . Do the research,at least it was not invented by a damn Frog. LOL.

@OffGridGarageAustralia 2 ай бұрын

Yeah, it's a foot long, right? Maybe we just have a different kind of humour.

@bobikbobikowy5458 2 ай бұрын

I wanted to use sodium ion in ebike, but energy density is not there yet... But for home solar system i think i would choose them. Propably safer than any other cells.

@OffGridGarageAustralia 2 ай бұрын

Sodium is not great for mobile applications. Even for home solar storage, 30% more space is needed to store the same capacity, plus you inverter will only use a fraction of the capacity, so even more sodium batteries need to be installed to get the same as with LFP. Safety... I don't consider LFP as unsafe.