I would love to see your list of 16 great serial compositions.

Ligeti had it right. The obituary for him in 'The Guardian' quote him as saying the following: "I cannot understand this idea of you have avant garde, and you have this postmodern neo-tonal stuff, as if these were the only two possibilities, there could be no third way. There are always a hundred ways. You have to find them."

I wholeheartedly agree that the demise of the academic avant-garde was a thing to celebrate. Not because I personally dislike much of the music written in that style (although not nearly everything), but it's because of their borderline authoritarian attitude towards other composers. The last thing we need is a pope of music like Pierre Boulez as great an artist as he was. I absolutely despise the way many fine composers like Shostakovich, Britten, and Walton were targeted by the orthodox modernists with their poison arrows. Fortunately the attitudes were more liberal in the US, as you point out 9:22. I recall reading an interview with Esa-Pekka Salonen, who said that it wasn't until he arrived in Los Angeles that he felt liberated enough from the straitjacket of European avant-gardism. He said that in L.A. he started thinking that why should he care what Pierre Boulez would think about his artistic choices. An atmosphere like that must have been dreadful.

Another brilliant video! I happened to attend the University of Huddersfield in the UK. The town is known for the Huddersfield Contemporary Music Festival or HCMF. First year undergrads had to attend various HCMF concerts and write about music to pass the year. To do well at composition, one would have write in an "avant garde" way. This meant being forced to write in a non tonal fashion, thus propagating the orthodoxy as you put it. A classmate quickly realised if you wrote outrageous works, you'd get high marks. Cue compositions containing photocopiers and other wacky sound sources with no substance behind them...

I believe that serialism came about naturally and logically as one musical approach among many. But Schoenberg himself said he never intended it for all composers, and it's my understanding that he did not force it on his students. He chose to explore its possibilities in his own work (with some notable tonal exceptions) and would surely have deplored its use as a weapon in the academic and cultural power games that arose after his departure from the scene.

I wonderful video. Bravo! I believe Ned Rorem dubbed the academic dodecaphonists "serial killers." I was in college studying music between 1958 and 1963 during the height of this orthodoxy.

Steve Reich studied with Luciano Berio, who -- of course -- taught the 12 tone/serial method. Reich said that what he did was write a 12 tone row and NOT invert it, NOT put it in retrograde, but just repeat it over and over while working with various rhythmic elements imposed upon the row. Berio, seeing this, told Reich "If you want to write tonal music, write tonal music." I'm impressed that Berio was willing to go that far. Of course, he's a 12 tone composer who wrote a lot of listenable, enjoyable, expressive music.

I'm studying music in Germany and it's so sad to me. Several generations of tonal composers pushed out of composition classes (or more often not accepted in the first place). The things some of the atonal guys are able to do with rhythm and creating textures is incredible. And sure, keep the atonal composition classes as they are. The issue is that there is nowhere to go for everyone else. Anything tonal is called "film music"... Great video, thanks for making it!

Brilliant observation from Rautavaara that serial music can actually be "safe" music for incompetents. I am not saying all serialists are that way - but it can be.

I wonder if there is a parallel in the art world. Certain painters who made their names and reputations as abstract expressionists later turned to representational art and it cost some their cache amongst their peers. Grace Hartigan is one. Great list, David! Fascinating aspect of 20th century musical history.

Fascinating topic for a video. You really know how to choose good ones. I'm glad that I started listening to/playing classical music in an era where atonal serialist music is dead and gone. The fact that it ever had such a grip on academia is mind boggling. So much time wasted!

What a terrific video - insightful and informative - a feast of names to explore further, each with a different story to tell, and a slice of musical history that can now be seen in perspective. Thank you, thank you.

I hadn't heard of HK Gruber & Kurt Schwertsik until you mentioned them here. Thanks for doing so! And thanks to KZfaq I had the opportunity to listen to a very enjoyable Chandos recording of works by Schwertsik conducted by HK Gruber ("Baumgesänge", "Nachtmusiken", and "Herr K entdeckt Amerika").

Would Henryk Gorecki also fall into this list? His Symphony of Sorrowful Songs was the ultimate slap on the face of serialism.

I am a big fan of serial music, but for me, it is just one of many other types of music I love. As you say, it became an orthodoxy, which was obviously not a good thing.

Boulez admitted like 10 years before his death that pure serialism gave similar results to computers programmed to do it. Even Boulez ditched serialism eventually, and his later compositions although still very atonal were becoming 'statistically' modal in the sense that you get the feeling when listening to Répons or Sur Incises that stuff is somehow centered around a note that shifts endlessly. He admitted this distance himself in an interview with composer Karol Beffa. Some works by Boulez are worth listening in my opinion.

There was a period where it seemed that composers were composing for other composers and not for the average listener. Music can be challenging without being cryptic. For me there were so many pieces that made me want to opt for a well-played version of "Happy Birthday to You."

So nice to hear a mention of Kurt Schwertzik. I had the pleasure of meeting him in the late 90s.

I went to Oberlin when Hans Hoffman was there. He was Schoenberg's secretary. He said Schoenberg claimed that the greatest c major composition has yet to be written

Very interesting talk. What are your thoughts /views on Frank Zappa’s classical output? Worth a chat maybe?

Love this video. Sets a period of history and the story of recent music in context. I would also very much like to hear your Great Serialists you mention here. And maybe a top 10 great serial works…?

Super interesting topic for video.

Fascinating discussion. I so well remember when the Concord Quartet recorded Rochberg's Third Quartet on Nonesuch and the sensation it made. I'd almost date that as the death knell of the serialist hegemony and the dawning of the postmodern era in serious music. I still have the lp itself, Rochberg's journey seemed so moving and significant. A great piece of music.

It seems a very good list of composers. I suggest to add Isang Yun here. I think Isang Yun is an important composer of 'post serialism' age. Please try his symphonies!

Thank you for teaching me how to pronounce Einojuhani.

Excellent insight 💯😎💯

Your description of the attitudinal problems with regard to serial composers reminds me of what used to happen in the jazz world. Not so much these days thankfully, but I'm thinking of a certain kind of jazz musician that couldn't understand why nobody wanted to hear them blow over ten choruses of Donna Lee.

I never heard of Einojuhani Rautavaara before that video. I checked on youtube, and wow, it is good : Symphony 3 and 7, piano concerto 1. Can't wait to hear the other works.

Toru Takemitsu is another composer that could be mentioned, gradually shifting away from avant-garde (though perhaps not strictly 12-tone) to a more conservative, consonant, broadly "romantic" style during the 1970s - but without a mere return to tonality, either.

Academical composition is still forced upon college students, with “research” replacing craft. I learned more about writing papers than I did about, say, instrumentation. Institutional avant-gardeism is still rampant.

Very good video, Dave! Can you do a video of recommended recordings of some compositions by these composers who renounced serialism?

Thanks!

An interesting talk! Curious that a good number of my favorite 20/21st-century composers are on the list. Mere coincidence that they came up when the academic avant-garde held sway, or was there something vital about immersing themselves in and then retreating from those styles that shaped what would come?

Jacob Druckman, one of my composition teachers at Yale, was pretty 12tonian in the 60ies (string quartet). Later on he became a good friend with Luciano Berio and there you have it: both of them learnt from Stockhausen, in fact and all three of them went on with their own music, building aleatoric language etc. Druckman wrote a whopping piece for large orchestra Windows in 1972 (Pullitzer Prize), a wonderful piece Prism from 1984 and other beautiful compositions.

Very interesting! I didn’t know that Rautavaara or Penderecki were serialists. Great Rautavaara quote! In a recent video you referred to the demise of the Germanic symphony tradition. I’m interested in how the symphony has developed from Haydn to recent times. Have you done such a video? An idea if you haven’t; if you have please let me know where to find it.

A good follow on discussion would be about the Expressionist composers, eg, Krenek, Wellesz, Toch.

That " screw you " reminds me of Milton Babbit's " Who cares if you're listening? "

Hear, hear on Rautavaara and Penderecki. their post-atonal works are just wonderful.

Very interesting Dave. Although I have felt for a long time that the supposed dominance of serialism is an overdone narrative, it’s hard to think of works that are actually serial and that anyone much listened to. Certainly the case in the uk and I doubt anyone was ever listening to much Babbit or whatever over there. Your list sort of proves this really as all these composers have been much more listened to since the 60s. The very most obvious example you left out is Gyorgy Ligeti, no idea why he isn’t in there…Maybe he didn’t ever write anything serial? I’ll bet he did at one point but nobody listened… :)

I can only accept Serialism on two conditions: It must be (1) set in a tonal context like the Alban Berg Violin Concerto and (2) gluten-free.

What was the Penderecki piece that first hooked you? I’ve yet to encounter anything that ‘wow-ed’ me from him. Any and all suggestions welcome. I had this conundrum with Elgar for awhile too. Now Jacqueline Du Pre is one of my all time favorite musicians, and a lot of that was from how she tackled those Elgar concertos.

Wendy Carlos once wrote in a letter to the NYT (IIRC) some years ago that serialism was a simple mathematical idea which only seemed big to musicians because it was, well, kind of mathematical, hence "deep". Carlos also studied physics and was dismayed by the reverence given to a rather trivial concept (mathematically speaking). The most annoying part was that students had to compose that way or else they wouldn't get a passing grade. My opinion is that serialism, like minimalism, was a cute concept that should have been used to produce a few works just to check the idea out (3-4 pieces max) over a year or two and just move on. The fact that both stuck for such a long time is strange but then so did communism in Russia, so what do I know. It sometimes seems to me like classical music went on vacation and disappeared after Mahler died and still hasn't returned. My hunch is that it was Penderecki's ambition to so something like picking up where Mahler left. Not sure how successful he was, there are some amazing moments in it.

Though not familiar with at least several of the composers on the list, this video really struck a chord (so to speak). Having spent my youth in England, and after starting to write music - tonal - in 1964 (at the age of 17), I used to think that I was at a disadvantage by not studying music formally at Cambridge and Oxford (where I studied medicine, and thereafter had a career as an academic physician). Looking back, however, it was advantageous not to be subjected professionally to the strictures of the stylistic thought police of the day (with which I was familiar, in the days when William Glock influenced the selection of new music played on the BBC Third programme, and via attendance at the Cheltenham Festival of British Contemporary Music - in the town where my parents and I lived, and where I did some page-turning during concerts). With that said, I was also aware of the need to aim at a professional standard of writing, and did my best to reach that level. The result has been a lifetime during much of which I've written music (all tonal and, I hope, not predictable). Use of words is important; the loaded term "post-tonal" to apply to atonal and serial music implies that this was the "only true way forward", and projected a certain rigidity and arrogance in the speaker. On the subject of "Viennese Schools" - I agree that enumerating these is unhelpful. If we're going to do this, however, may I be permitted to invoke Johann Joseph Fux (1660-1741) as a leading figure in a "First" Viennese School (followed by the "Second", led by my principal mentor, Joseph Haydn, who was appropriately celebrated by frequent BBC performances of his then "lesser-known" works in the 1960s, when atonal and serial music was also being given considerable air time, as noted above).

Brit composer (and former Boulez acolyte) Richard Rodney Bennett could join the list.

What about Malipiero? Where does he fall in this area

Thank you for this talk. Any style of music, if it starts to be used arbitrarily and no longer contributes to fresh expression, is abandoned, and what follows is a reaction against the style that is being replaced. Even madrigals became artistic dead ends. I suppose the next major revolution may be against the limitations of the tempered scale, harmonically reached in 12-tone serialism. I recently digitized my Nonesuch LP of Rochberg's 3rd String Quartet, and I remember being bothered in the 1970's (when I had last heard it) that the new future of music might be 'back to Mahler". Now that piece just sounds kitschy to me. My guess is that microtonality will be the limitless new frontier, and is already being increasingly embraced in popular music (without sounding like Harry Partch).

I don't think my brain is even wired to appreciate atonal music, let alone serialism. The only atonal music that ever affected me in any way was Schoenberg's Pierrot Lunaire, which I found ugly and a bit disturbing, but it did give me chills and moved me in an inexplicable way. I've been to a few proms that showcased atonal, modern works, but they've always left me cold. Just the way I'm built I suppose.

I love your description of the 12 tone as a Loathsome Interlude. I cannot for the love of me understand why modern day composers concentrated on that odd concept of composing. Aren't there any modern day composers who actually used melody and harmony for Christ s sake? I get really riled up about this ! Sorry

It has occurred to me that perhaps the technique of serialism offered the potential for a limited number of major musical works--in the class of the Berg Violin Concerto. Less than 100? Less than 50? Probably more than 25?

I went to a lecture many years ago that featured three composers: Rochberg, Wuornin, and Crumb. And I remember George Crumb saying something to the effect that he would never have become a composer if the only models he had for one were Stockhausen and Boulez.

Thanks for introducing me to so many great composers! Are you aware of any plausible conspiracy theory why European states were pushing 12-tone music, and not something else?

I am glad we have now moved beyond serialism, but nevertheless we should still listen to this music, as it was a phase of musical history. We do not need to enjoy every piece of music we hear, but we should still explore. Anyone who complains of avant garde in music, should look at visual arts from 20th century onwards. Most works of modern art one sees in museums are pure rubbish, without any of the craftsmanship one finds in the case of unloved serialist music. Yet no one is complaining.

I was told all new pieces had to be 12 tone.

As soon as a principle becomes a dogma and some kind of sine qua non criteria, it also becomes a hiding place for mediocrity. It happened with historicity too. It was kinda necessary to whip up the lukewarm pool of Romantic decadence, but that too became a dogma. As for serialism - well, we have the advantage of hindsight - I have a hard time understanding how could anyone see in it the great solution for all the problems of music. It was kept alive mostly by the controversy around it and as soon as Stravinsky gave up and wrote Pulcinella, it deflated like the hot air balloon that it was. For many composers it was a phase in their creative life, a phase that they assumed and accepted, but one that they left in due time. One of my teachers (Ede Terenyi, RIP) used to refer to it - alluding to Bartok - as his barbaro period.

That needed to be said, (like the "God Delusion" ). Thoroughly enjoyed your collection. Its amazing how many of the greats had a dabble in serial, like Vaughn Williams, and I think Shostakowich, but not for long.

Diehards like Schoenberg and Boulez eventually created a distance between themselves and serial music, as well, didn't they? 12-tone music shares a distinction with rap music in that they both tried to create a music that minimized the role of melody. Rap music's been way more popular, of course, but even rap is edging back toward melody as it matures because listeners want it. If music is composed of melody, harmony, rhythm, and texture, then melody is the king of that quartet. It's often a useful exercise to create art by setting limits and boundaries. But eliminating melody from music does not tend to produce great music. We now have proven that. And as Nadia Boulanger often said, one can teach everything about music BUT melody. "Melody is a gift from God." So, in a sense, doing away with melody is akin to doing away with inspiration or the human higher self. Music for machines.

Personally I have more disdain for minimalism than you do for serialism, and I stand almost in the same place that you do on serialism.

There may still be holdouts, but THANK GOD the heyday of Academic Serialism is over. Musicologists with too much time on their hands, who seek some kind of New Frontier, might start investigating how Academic Serialism damaged and reduced the audience for "classical music," nearly as much as as rock n' roll. In fact, far better to listen to rock 'n roll than most A.S.

Slightly related - Simeon ten Holt.

Tried to like serialism when I was a kid; when I became a man I put aside childish things. Actually I do like some of it… HOWEVER…

Serialism is easy, for the last 40 years it has been possible to write a computer code and just press Enter.

Where is zemlinsky. ????