super interesting ruling. I'd probably prefer to just stick with one concentration check as a house rule. Magic Missle are still powerful enough, from my point of view. That being said, I totally have to check in with my group now, if they feel the same :P

@@tschjones9317 its only worth taking for the multiple concentration saves post level 5 otherwise its pretty trash damage wise, do you make someone take just 1 concentration check from being on fire for multiple rounds? no, no you don't

So... I guess the Magic Missile Coup de Grace stands as well. Three sources of damage = three failed death saves.

In my opinion, "for each source of damage" doesn't mean you make multiple saves from magic missile. There's still only one source of damage-- Magic Missile. I believe this rule is meant for things like Thunderwave pushing you into a Create Bonfire.

I understand you're point that magic missile can interfere in the potential casting process and making a consternation check however as l understand how the spell works is the total amount of missiles cast shoot forth from the caster at once ...you don't roll to hit for each individual missile because as noted they hit automatically... Personally I would never allow a player to cast the spell as a 9th level slot but use the intelligence bonus of caster so a Max of +5 or level 5 spell slot.

Right? Never thought of Magic Missile like that. with 120ft range, then it becomes a very liable option. It's possible that this is what it was originally intended for but it got over looked over the years.

Learned way back when 1e was the only version that existed that a battle between Magic Users was handled best by casting Magic Missile since it doesn't miss (modulo Shield), it casts so fast, and it can interrupt.

exactly! I have a artificer that is going to flavour his magic missiles as this :D

Laughs in sorcerer EDIT: And Artificer

Burning hands would do the same...

Heck... If the casters are tightly packed it can be a lot more than 3...

@@andresmicalizzi5420 3 PCs in 120 ft range.

oh you're just trying to justify your dice buying habit.

Sounds like photon torpedoes!

You can’t cast counter spell if you cast magic missile. 2 spells in a turn is a no-no

@@happy911 You can according to Sage Advice: "Can you cast a reaction spell on your turn? You sure can! Here’s a common way for it to happen: Cornelius the wizard is casting fireball on his turn, and his foe casts counterspell on him. Cornelius also has counterspell prepared, so he uses his reaction to cast it and break his foe’s counterspell before it can stop fireball." From Sage Advice: media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/SA-Compendium.pdf

@@DemoBytom You are right, I stand corrected in terms of rules as written. I suppose if I DM a campaign with spell casters I will have to inform that that I would not allow this as a personal homebrew. The example you give is quite specific, however, the spell description of Counterspell is that it is an attempted interruption of a spell being cast, which to me means it begins casting as a reaction in the middle of someone's spellcasting before it is completed. Counterspell has somatic component, and so does Magic Missile. I do not think it's logical (yes, I know DnD is illogical) that you can stop the somatic component of magic missile, change to the somatic component of Counterspell (to counter the Counterspell being cast on you), and then switch back to the somatic component of Magic Missile to complete the spell (in 6 seconds). I suppose I would allow it if Magic Missile did not have a somatic component. But again, you are right in terms of rules as written RAW. The idea of wizards countering spells while casting others is cool, but I think I will impose my own limits in terms of verbal and somatic components.

@@happy911 I would have to agree with your reasoning on this as the logistics of someone trying to interrupt you as you cast a spell so you interrupt them, THUS interrupting your own incantation of a spell you were initially trying to cast. However I am not sure how I'd handle it in game. I may allow it just for the sake of fun and not making the player feel like im limiting them

@@dayton9321 Right? More rules, more limitations, it depends on the group you play with and the tone of the campaign. I probably would have allowed it if not prepared and let the players know the next time to take this into consideration for the sake of moving the game along.

I can see the technicality of forcing one for each dart, but if i had to guess i would say this was not initially intended to be the case but ended up coming about as the rules fell into place and they didnt see the point in backtracking. Personally, just as i will ignore the rolling a single die for the damage i will also only allow a single concentration check regardless of how many missile hit it. However, there still remains the benifit of targeting multiple concentrating targets with one spell, which i think is nice but not as OP as forcing 3+ concentration saves for what is in all reality a wizards single attack. Finally i will say i came to this conclusion i think due to the fact that MM auto hits, if you had to roll for each dart (like scorching ray or eldritch blast) it is harder for me to argue against it

Because Jeremy Crawford. Just rule it the way you want

You mean the ZF-1 that was demonstrated to the Mangalores.

@@trenwilson6613 Yes. That! I can imagine them now...and the flamethrower. lol

That's always how I viewed them.

The one that ups a saving throw is technically better for con saves, especially at later levels. War caster is better if your going to be using its other 2 features as well

Once our DM killed the Cleric in this exact way, that wasn't a fun session, ngl

I also believe that in the 5eSW port Magic Missile was refluffed as homing missiles and whistling birds for non Force casters

Consider Scorching Ray in comparison. That's 3 attacks, three separate bits of damage, same as Magic Missile. You'd have to roll a CON save after each hit. The only difference is that Magic Missile automatically hits on each dart, no attack roll necessary.

@@nucleargoofball8043 Yes, that is sort of my question. Would you have to roll 3 separate saving throws if trying to maintain a concentration spell if hit with three scorching ray missiles from one spell, or is it fair to consider the “source” of the damage suffered from the three missiles all coming from one spell (one “source”) and therefore only one save against all the damage caused by the three missiles combined is needed? I don’t know the answer, I just find the use of the word “source” of damage in the rules more than a bit vague.

@@matthewkirkhart2401 Yep, one save for each hit, for both spells.

You are not mistaken. I've never played a game where I got to make the dm roll 4 concentration checks with a lvl2 MM. Pretty sure my dm would laugh at me if I tried.

​@@gattzflappa6306 would make the spell a fair bit more OP if it was the case, but its only a level 1 spell they aren't meant to be OP ... IMO

@@litlclutch it would be way OP. I could see an argument for it being a utility spell for breaking concentration if it didn't automatically hit, but the auto hit gives it a utility as is. My wizard uses MM to ignore disadvantage that's more than enough utility for a lvl 1 spell.

Conversely "You create three glowing darts of magical force. Each dart hits a creature of your choice that you can see within range. A dart deals 1d4 + 1 force damage to its target" seems clear that you roll a die for each dart, not once.

The word "Each". Means separate and distinct

While I have never seen anyone run it that what thier saying here is since missle is a 1d4+1 force damage and it doesnt miss no matter and the spell says that thier seprate darts you make a save for each dart. Personally as a gm that using magic on my players and has my players use magic on my npcs I would just roll for all the darts at once if that damage is higher of a DC cause it keeps the game going faster.

Peter, you are correct, against 1 target there is only 1 save. The Magic Missile spell states "The darts all strike simultaneously". If the caster wants more than 1 Concentration check then they need to target more than 1 target. I sure do wish one of the lead designers (Jeremy Crawford, whose "interpretation" they are using) could actually read and comprehend his own damn rules.

@@gorillahandz You could make the argument that if you roll damage for each individual dart, they are all separate sources of damage and would therefore force concentration saves. Of course, this depends on the DM so your mileage may vary.

How is Sleep still effective, and what are you calling higher levels? I'm absolutely onboard with the rest though. I just recently discovered how good Fog Cloud is. It's essentially portable cover that scales up amazingly well.

@@OniphireSleep says the following: “At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, roll an additional 2d8 for each slot level above 1st.” Let’s say a 6th Level Aberrant Mind Sorcerer casts Sleep using Psionic Sorcery, with a 3rd Level spell slot: • There is no Attack Roll • There is no Save • Counterspell would not work against it, because there are no components • It works on any creature that is not Undead and or immune to being Charmed It’s perfect for a party of elves because it would cause friendly fire. If you directed it at one creature, it would work up to 9d8. If your party takes the creature down in hit points enough before the Sorcerer cast, then it could take out even an Adult Red Dragon with its Legendary Resistance. If the Adult Red Dragon is surrounded by a bunch of Kobolds, then at least you will take out some of them! 😊

Imagine that....

@@mr.flibble3190 I was going to go into details but it all seemed rude. So, it was obvious:)

The solution is already baked into the spell. Magic missile states that all the missiles hit simultaneously. That is to say in one burst of damage.

Agreed

I thought so as well and that ruling would feel more balanced for the spell IMO. However according to Crawford: www.sageadvice.eu/2016/04/22/do-you-roll-concentration-for-every-instance-of-damage-taken/ Who litterally designed the rules they are indeed seperate sources of damage despite hitting simultaneously! I was CERTAIN there was a later eratta or something contradicting that but it would appear not!

@@odralix1161 this is why I am glad my DM and party will dismiss a ruling like this when we all agree it shouldn’t be a thing

@@odralix1161 One wonders why the word 'simultaneous' is included in the spell description then, since it does nothing but confuse the situation. I also thought that there was an errata stating that multiple magic missiles caused a single check, but the Sage has spoken I guess.

I learned a long time ago to ignore the Sage Advice. Talk to your DM, weigh the pros and cons, ask yourself "would this feel fun if it happened against the PCs?" and then allow the DM to make a final ruling and move on. Is it annoying to spend money on rules and then have to arbitrate anyway because they couldn't be bothered to write them clearly in the first place? You bet. Is it worth relying on the same developers or new ones with less experience coming in and dropping a ruling via twitter while simultaneously dropping a deuce? Definitely not. All-in-all there are a lot of ambiguous and sloppy rules as written in 5e that only get worse after Sage Advice drops a ruling on them, so do yourself a favor and keep your blood pressure low by just ignoring them. Once I did that, I stopped popping blood vessels every few weeks over face palm worthy rulings. The contradictions of clearly written rules to suddenly become muddied just became too much.

To clarify - Does a paladin with a flame tongue sword and divine smite force 3 saves? one for slashing, one for fire, one for radiant dmg? No - the attack is one instance of damage. Similarly, since magic missile has the requirement to hit simultaneously, it is one instance. You can force the concentration save on as many different targets (that you can see) as you have missiles, but each target is only hit by one instance of damage (rules as written). If you want to change the spell to allow time between shots, get your dm's buy-in but it wont happen at my table because of the 230 issues you mentioned.

Eldritch blast you got to roll to hit.

If you roll with a 9 or more as base save, you CANNOT fail.

Thing is they're playing two angles. If each missile gets its own save then the threshold never goes above DC10... If the damage is combined for all the missiles the DC can be fairly big making harder saves.

3 darts that do 1d4+1 that can hit the same or seperate targets. Upcasting gives an additional dart per spell level. So casting it at 9th level makes 11 darts, for 11d4+11.

@@vadaritis Looks to me like D&D is slowly going the JRPG route of upping up health and damage of everyone. Used to be you had 1 missile doing d4+1 damage, with an additional bolt every 2 caster levels, up to a max of 5.

@Hungry GIANTS 3d4 is quite a bit. Average of that is 7.5 (max 12). Magic missile is actually 3d4+3, average of 10.5, max of 15. Compared to the other weapons: Short sword: 3.5, Longsword: 4.5, Greatsword: 7. You are getting a free hit as if you were Str16 character with a great sword. And you can do that at a distance. Tell me that is not overpowered. EDIT: 1st level fighter gets 10+Con HP at level 1, so probably somewhere around 12 and max of 15. A lucky 1st level mage apprentice can one shot him. In fact, he can potentially one-shot every character other than a barbarian with maxed Con. At 120ft, without rolling to hit. And do that twice. I now have an idea for a local 'terror of adventurers': a 1st (or 2nd if I am mean) level sorcerer on a donkey, riding up to an adventuring party in the field, one-shotting a character or two with MM, riding away, then repeating. It's very rare they will have more than 1-2 spellcasters in a party of 4.

@@krinkrin5982 my bad, longbow range is actually 150/600, so the fighter would have disadvantage on attacks almost immediately after the "terror" starts to run away.

@@cameronlancefrii7356 I think the longbow is the only weapon with a range longer than a magic missile. Kind of surprised a fighter starts with it and not a short bow, as it seems to be the best weapon overall for long range attacks.

There actually is a low rarity magic item that permanently protects you from magic missile.

So a creature hit with a single missile doesn't make a concentration check?

@@malachimclean3638 No, it still makes a check. Now that I think about it, you could also try making the con saving throw DC based on the total damage of the spell. The saving throw is rolled once so magic missile basically acts like any other damage dealing spell when it comes to concentration.

I think the obvious "fix" is just having a single concentration check no matter how many hit, which treats MM like most other spells. But I like that MM is a little busted in some ways; I don't really think it needs to be modified. That's how the rules are written, and when Crawford had the chance to clarify intent or issue errata, he left it alone.

@@malachimclean3638 I agree, that would be the simplest fix. Whether or not it needs to be modified is ultimately the preference of the DM :)

Or you know...it's a high magic fantasy system...

What? That... That's preposterous. ::sweats in cypher system mechanics::

I ran a modern superhero game with 5e rules. It worked pretty well with only a few house rules (e.g. any damage can be nonlethal so the heroes aren't constantly killing criminals with their spells).

@@zach1972 yeah that’s what people call it. Which is fine, they can call it whatever they want. It’s still just a superhero game with a fantasy skin as far as I’m concerned.

@Hungry GIANTS that’s not true. In OD&D and AD&D for example, magic is not nearly as abundant and death is much easier to come by.

Per RAW, no. Crawford has ruled otherwise, as they mentioned in this video (and the previous one they did), along with their pinned comment. SMH.

Nay

Agree 100%